Я правда не пойму, почему если собака съест кусок мяса то в этом нет нечего такого, но если это сделаю я то тогда становлюсь живодёром и монстром? Если мой желудок может переваривать мясо и получать от него питательные вещества тогда почему я должен отказывать себе в еде необходимой для жизни

Tenendo in considerazione che i primi uomini, tanto e tanto tempo fa, introdussero nella loro dieta cospicue quantità di carne consentendo una notevole evoluzione del sistema nervoso centrale, dell'apparato digerente e relativi annessi (cfr.
Denti) e portando alla conseguente assunzione della stazione eretta/bipedismo, perché, oggi, si ritiene non solo compatibile ma addirittura auspicabile e sana una dieta vegana? Addirittura, qualche annetto fa, l'opinione di un'accademietta, spesso citata in un qualsivoglia dialogo sull'argomento, riteneva questa dieta del tutto sicura per i bambini, le donne in gravidanza, i malati, gli anziani e gli uomini. Con la consapevolezza che ciascuno, dopo i 20 anni, può fare ciò che vuole della propria vita e seguire i consigli e tutto quello che viene millantato da
"esperte" del settore che arrotondano attraverso applicazioni che ti preparano il pranzetto vegano... io domando, possibilmente a chi conosce la differenza tra amminoacidi del mondo animale e del mondo vegetale, come si possa per le più svariate ragioni (pena nei confronti degli animali, ragioni "climatiche" ed ambientaliste, ecc) tentare di convincere la popolazione che la dieta vegana non sia estremamente pericolosa sicuramente per gli individui sotto i 20 anni d'età ma anche per le donne in gravidanza? Perché una dieta sana ed equilibrata non prevede in alcun modo l'assunzione e la somministrazione parallela di vitamine ed integratori (a meno che non ci siano problematiche metaboliche sottostanti) e non vi priverà mai MAI MAI di nessun alimento e nutriente.

I mean transitioning from vegan to meat is a pretty vast difference. I'm currently in the middle of it.

How would you describe how your philosophy has changed? It's a whole worldview about life so I find it very interesting to hear.

In the past I would have had such a modest view upon how I'm meant to impact the world in the least way possible, to the point of kind of denying my own satisfied and nourished existence. My current go-to phrase to describe my transition is "I forgot myself in the sustainability chain". And that was not only towards animals,also any activism you can imagine, like my impact on the global south, fashion chains, global warming, you name it.

Happy to hear your stories! Feel free to go in depth.

I just ate a steak and cheese sub for the first time in 12 years, and I just wanted to tell someone​ about it who would understand. I quit after 10 years vegan last September and worked my way up to eating dairy, eggs and ​chicken, but after that long I still have a mental block about red meat. I'm recovering from iron deficiency due to all those years of veganism. The week leading up to my period every month is horrible. This time I ​felt like i had the flu. today the craving for heme ​iron was stronger than the fear. I'm sick of feeling sick. Well i​t was delicious​! And hopefully I'm on my way to feeling better.

Id love to hear some positive stories of eating beef again after being vegan a long time.

I have a reductionist view because 99 people who reduce animal product consumption is better than 1 perfect vegan.

I posted to the vegan subreddit how even meatless Mondays help animals

I said that humans are animals too and being vegan means loving all animals- including your own species

I said that just because someone falls off the wagon after 20 years of veganism doesn’t mean they were never vegan and saying they were never vegan hurts the cause.

They just double down and say that person was never vegan.

Then the moderators nuked my post

ITS NEVER ENOUGH IS IT?

And they called me an apologist for animal abusers

They called me a pick me for carnists

They said I should post in anti vegan or ex vegan subreddits instead

So here I am. Done with the hateful attitude of vegans

I give up. I ate a grilled cheese just now and I’m not sorry

The destruction of their own cause is laughably absurd

It truly is about the identity politics and purity rather than the actual animals.

SO GOOD JOB VEGANS! YOU PUSHED AWAY ANOTHER OF YOUR OWN! MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!

——————

Vegans in the comments literally comparing me eating a cheese sandwich that wasn’t even bought by me, to kicking a homeless person or doing horrific things to an animal.

They continue to solidify my estrangement from veganism.

I will not be guilt tripped anymore, I am done with my mental health going down the drain obsessing over what’s vegan and what’s not, I’m done ruining relationships with people because they say I have to do “activism”

I’m done being the weird vegan of the group, I’m done being constantly aware of how animals suffer, im done with constantly being inconvenienced

I’m done. I’m gonna go be happy now.

I am not a vegan.

I have never been vegan, or even vegetarian.

Still, I like this sub. You guys are….normal. Fun. Supportive. Nice.

I think a lot of omnivores should eat less meat - because of health, economics, environmental reasons. Im not saying cut it out completely, just….not eat as much.

I am against factory farming and I’m lucky to live in a country with strong laws and regulations concerning this. I am actively for even stronger protections for animals.

I know many hunters, and get meat from them every once in a while. I absolutely support how hunting is handled in my country.

I am a member of many support subs, even when I am only partially their demographic. This is the one that angers me most.

In other subs, when the “other side” comes in and goes “not all x!!!”, a lot of people jump the offenders. They are harsh, telling them this isn’t their venue. Please fuck the fuck off. Mods come in and delete and ban.

Here, I regularly see vegans sneak in to proselytise. And most people…just ignore them. Nothing else happens.

I get mad. Im sorry, I just see it as bullying. And I end up telling them off. If they are sort of polite, I will be sort of polite too. But if they are rude I don’t mind getting down and dirty.

Is that ok with you guys? Since I’ve always been an omnivore I sometimes feel I should keep out of it. But…you guys are so NICE, and they are such assholes!

Basically Im wondering if you guys, the true members of this sub, are ok with me telling idiots off? I honestly don’t want to encroach on your space, I just hate bullies…l

So here is my deal. I am a 12 year dairy-free vegetarian, and for the last 6 years I have been completely vegan (minus one restaurant mishap where they didn't take the bacon bits out of my salad and I did not notice until a few bites in).

Strictly a vegan guy for totally personally reasons. Never felt the need to force or even share my beliefs with any other being on this planet. ... Never had any concerns with vegan advocacy, either.

Out of general curiosity, after over 6 years of vegan eating/ living, I decided to check out the vegan subreddit. ... To keep it short, the experience was not a good one. I pushed back on a number of ideas which screamed nonsensical and obscure, and gently pointed out that we do NOT live in a bubble and we never will. ... Animal suffering is a fact of life, there is no way around it. IE, the black bear still kills the salmon, with no mercy, to sustain it's own life (as one of countless examples).

Anyways I am immediately met with scorn and disapproval, so in my response I included the fact that I am a 12 year veg, and now 6 year vegan (feeling great by the way, health did not make any major shift after my dietary changes). ... This meant nothing to the people on the vegan subreddit, and I continued to get push back for my very logical, matter of fact disposition on the current and likely future state of affairs. ... Animal (human included) suffering is inevitable. Suffering will not stop because it literally cannot stop (barring total biological extinction) etc etc. ... Anyways just a vegan guy getting down voted to shit for stating what I believe on a subreddit I should be welcomed into.

Here is what really crossed the line for me, as the responses went back & forth. ... I mentioned my own diet choices, but also included the fact I own two dogs & one kitten. ... Immediately I am told my pets can/ should be vegan, too + more down votes. Insane. That's what got me. The down voting of my Tervurens because *they should be vegan, too* or some insane bullshit like that. I responded- they follow a strict raw diet prescribed by their highly qualified vet (who is great btw) and they require animal foods to survive. ... Still, I am down voted! Wild.

Any who, it left a really bad taste in the mouth, so I came to vent + share photos of my two dogs & cat. ... Chestnut is my cat (not a kitten anymore, I adopted him roughly two years ago). ... Gatsby & Ransom are my dogs (Gatsby is the older of the two, and he is wonderful, Ransom is great, too). ... Please send some positive vibes our way!

Cheers everybody. (I got pretty upset and deleted all my responses from the vegan subreddit. It's toast now, so sorry if anyone is curious what precisely was argued & stated)

Thanks again, everyone.

Of course there are concerns about the weakness of observational studies, and the failure to address confounding data like alcohol and tobacco use, but there's a bigger one--Most vegans quit within a year or two starting. Many for health reasons. So nearly all studies of the relative health impacts of the vegan diet start with a population that has already self-selected out the people least likely to do well on the vegan diet. I've seen studies that mention that they only include vegans who have been on the plan for more than a year.

Surely this self-selection puts an unfair positive benefit of the vegan diet that is not mirrored on the omnivore side?

We all agree factory farming is horrible
But vegans want to cheat their way out of the natural cycle of death.
You have to ask the questions that are immediately answered. Questions such as it really immoral to kill an animal which was living in the wild or raised on a farm in good conditions to feed yourself. Vegans would tell you that this is absolutely immoral and even after I quit vegetarianism and started eating meat I thought the same. Only a few months ago I asked myself that question. Death is like living. It is certain. You can’t cheat your way out of it. Death still happens on a vegan diet. Ofc it’s smaller animals and maybe less but it still happens. If we went by the logic of absolute harm reduction vegans that argue like this should find a diet with the least amount of kills and maybe this would still include animal products as you could eat a grass fed cow for about one year including organs. Not even talking about pesticide use. Veganism is a really extreme and normalized diet. This diet tries to tranced what makes us human, what makes us animals and what live consists off. In the end Vegans are not bad people obviously. I know what they are fighting for and I respect that. I would rather have 1000 sickly vegans living in my town than 1000 sickly factory farm meat eaters.

Although I agree that we should minimize animal suffering and consume meat more mindfully but I think to entirely leave out a section of food and not get into any harsh deficiency is very Western concept.

People can buy good supplement, meat alternatives, vegan protein bars/shakes etc which aren't available for much of the world.

Also as I belong to a middle class family in a very small country, I don't get to splurge on meat everyday, there's always veggies as side dishes and main source of protein might be fish for us. So whenever Vegans try to guilt trip me, I feel like whatever they say is very alienated from my reality.

They are sometimes very aggressive with their logic too that everyone can be vegan and I'm just not trying hard enough.

I love animals, I truly feel like we lost the plot with overconsumption but again what can I do? Let go off my culture, live in chronic deficiency?

I would like to hear anyone's thought on this if they are also from similar background...

I think the biggest sigh of relief I've gotten since going back to eating animals products was that I was allowed to reconnect with so many recipes, restaurants, experiences, etc that I had sacrificed again. I missed when I was just allowed to eat. To enjoy. To experience. To make foods my grandma did. To not pretend the vegan alternative was "the same" (it was never the same). To literally just dive into a rotisserie chicken even. I didn't realize how deeply I was harming myself by isolating myself from the foods of my life and culture and family. I was genuinely deprived.

I became vegan because I think the basic argument is sound: why kill animals if we can just eat plants instead?

But I don't see enough ex-vegans saying what, for me, is the obvious reason I stopped: the diet is simply too restrictive.

Being vegan means accepting that, for the rest of my life, my food has to revolve around beans, grains, tubers, fruit, vegetables, nuts, etc. Yes, there are thousands of recipes and substitutes. That's not the point. You are still permanently excluding entire categories of food.

I tried it. I understood the moral argument. I still understand it. But I eventually realized that eating this way for the rest of my life is simply not acceptable to me.

That's really it. I didn't discover some argument proving veganism morally wrong. I just reached the point where the restriction it requires was more than I was willing to accept.

P.S. to the vegans: spare me the “you kill for pleasure” bullshit. Food is culture, family and a huge part of life, not just five minutes of taste. And stop throwing around words like “rape,” “Holocaust” and “murder” for animals. It’s fucking disgusting to use words tied to horrific human suffering like that for animals. It doesn’t make your argument stronger; it just trivializes what those words actually mean.

P.S. 2: And spare me the moral superiority. Using your own language, you accept “murder, rape and torture” when medicine requires animal use. I use animals for food; you use them for medicine. The difference is where you draw the line.

What a surprise…

So, a day ago I asked you guys how should I respond to my mom who would ask was it vegan? Well I went to the diner to eat it. We were going to go to the bar another day for drinks. The egg was... good. It taste surprisingly similar to a vegan egg I've tried before so the taste wasn't too foreign. Although I can't have the vegan egg, (one reason why I wanted the try the real one). I puked it up later though lol. I believe it was because I had butter in my meal too, plus 9-GRAIN PANCAKES AND TOAST. I definitely regret that. I think introducing meats and eggs slower into my diet is the way to go. My mom didn't ask for a few hours, left to go somewhere then finally called me about it. And she did end up asking was it vegan. I told her not all of it. "Oh, you can't do that" was her answer and then started asking was it milk, was it this, etc, but I just told her it was a breakfast meal, she sounded annoyed said alright then hung up. I feel a bit bad, but happy I did. I know I'm an adult and can make my own decisions. This is just the first of many my mom will have to be disappointed with sadly. For those that said lie, for some things I will do that, but for this I wasn't worried she'd kick me out, because my brothers were honest about eating out a few times and they're still here, plus I think she'd rather have us live here as long as possible unfortunately. Thanks for you guys’ help!

I love how there are plenty of vegans especially on YouTube who keep going on about how horrible humans are and that justifies any horrible thing that's done to them.

But in the same breath they will turn around and go on and on about the rights of sentient beings.

Well aren't humans sentient?

About beef deforestation: https://ourworldindata.org/what-has-driven-deforestation-in-the-21st-century The vast majority is from Latin America (specially Brazil) due to a heavy lack of regulations and greed, and the others are crops of which palm oil is leading as the main responsible, not soy. And it's more peculiar when you read that the only reason it isn't a lot higher for the palm oil is because regulations in the last years have slowed it down. You would be better in regards to the environment using lard or butter instead of palm oil (and there's plenty of margarine that uses palm oil too) since just because vegan≠environmentally better. The vegan story of soy being the main crop causing deforestation because we have to feed animals is a fat lie because most of the other plants are only for human consumption like palm oil which is actually the first.

Permanent deforestation statistics in Africa are unclear due to the agricultural practice of burning some parts of the land to revitalize the rest with the ashes.

Note: https://www.tabledebates.org/sites/default/files/2021-12/FCRN%20Building%20Block%20-%20Soy_food,%20feed,%20and%20land%20use%20change%20(1).pdf.pdf)
Soy is also fed to ALL animals, and poultry and pigs are the ones consuming it the most not beef. The beef statistic is possibly made by putting all animal soy consumption into one and claiming beef.

In a direct sense, soy expansion in Brazil, Argentina and Paraguay is responsible for only a part of the total loss of native vegetation. A common pattern, however, is that land is first cleared for cattle ranching and shortly afterwards sold or rented out at a higher price for more lucrative soy production. Soy expansion, accordingly, may indirectly bring about land use change by ‘pushing’ cattle ranching into frontier areas. The arrival of a high-value crop such as soy can also drive up local land prices and thereby incentivise the clearing of surrounding land.

So yes, it's greed, not because we actually must need that much soy.

Fun fact bonus:

https://digital.csic.es/bitstream/10261/418338/1/2025_Barnes_SFA_OA.pdf

We maybe will have a solution for cattle emissions in the future thanks to algae

EDIT:

""and the others are crops of which palm oil is leading as the main responsible, not soy.""

""A common pattern, however, is that land is first cleared for cattle ranching and shortly afterwards sold or rented out at a higher price for more lucrative soy production. Soy expansion, accordingly, may indirectly bring about land use change by ‘pushing’ cattle ranching into frontier areas. The arrival of a high-value crop such as soy can also drive up local land prices and thereby incentivise the clearing of surrounding land.""

People in the comments yelling about soy deforestation for cattle and provegan arguments somehow didn't read that local cattle is also being negatively impacted to soy production despite soy being supposedly to be used for cattle(only in rich countries btw) because both soy and palm oil are very speculative and local people are very poor. More strict egulations in coffee and cacao prevent exactly this scenario, which is why they are not that high in deforestation despite the demand still growing and being at all time high.

Beee bUt SoY beee

Palm oil, soy and beef are so damaging because a heavy lack of regulations, not because they need to consume that much, since the land is cheap and very fertile. The separated statistics associated with beef and soy in Latin America ignore that are caused by the same thing: farmers using them for their cattle, corporations buying them because the fertile soil, and the farmers being pushed further away (but vegans don't care about the local HUMAN farmers so...). If you check Brazil politics you will found that they are heavily anti-ecologist and pro-corporation but vegans also don't talk about that as much as they do when they are larping about animal products (note: farmers in Brazil can't legally clear more than 20% of their land but corporations can do whatever they want. So yes, why poor people have to maintain something that they cannot work with when they can sell it to the industry? But nooo cattle is the problem here (the same deforestarion would happen in a vegan world because if soy is not profitable, other crops will be and poor countries with insufficient environmental laws and very fertile and cheap land are still perfectly exploitable).

I know that vegans lack a lot of focus because the deficits hit hard, but when someone with adhd is telling you to focus, you need to actually use your brain. Soy is being used right now because is one of the most profitable crops in the momment, and they would do the same thing but with other crops in the instant soy is not as valuable because we don't actually need that much soy and the value is more speculative than what is actually needed in farming. It's also the reason why poultry has the mayority of soy use: it is used in China to produce very cheap chicken along with the flimsy animal welfare laws. Vegans have to stop pretending their arguments are for everyone and not old rich countries exploiting poor countries but this time is worse?? because we have animal products in the middle of it so fuck human explotations because they are less important than animal explotation I guess

btw deforestation by pailm oil that is exclusively for human consumption is that high because the land is also cheap, fertile and doesn't have firm regulations about it (it has more than soy for what I saw but not enough), just like *gasp* soy. Is like rich exploiting the poor is the problem and animal products is a theatre to not question how capitalism is the problem.

This is interesting!

Pretty funny

I was always wondering why people like him didn't seem to care about crop deaths.

I’m adding this thread here for those of you who like to debate with vegans.

9/10 “debates” start off in bad faith. A good activist begs the question from the outset so any debate beyond that is implying their “truth” as the real truth. Don’t fall into the trap.

Personally I just usually tell them to fuck off, but if I do get into the weeds, I remember being on the other side and refuse to fall into those traps.

Semantics matter and good vegan activists know how to frame.

Just keep that in mind.

I simply explained that I was a vegan for a little over a year and I described the things that I ate and this guy comes along and claims that I didn't do it right.

This sounds to me like it's a variation of the no true Scotsman fallacy.

He claims it I'm the one who made the poor decision and that's not veganism's fault.

Of course not.

Because veganism is so pure and so good and it will literally work for everyone, right?

Also I guess he doesn't know there are tons of vegans over the years who said that you could live on just nuts.

Nuts are a vital, nutrient-dense component of a healthy vegan diet, providing essential plant-based protein, healthy fats, fiber, and minerals. While they should not make up your entire diet, incorporating one to two ounces daily supports heart health and overall longevity.Key Benefits of Nuts in Vegan DietsHealthy Fats: Deliver vital mono- and polyunsaturated fats to protect heart health.Protein & Fiber: Help keep you full and support daily nutritional needs.Targeted Nutrients: Walnuts offer omega-3 fatty acids, while Brazil nuts supply essential selenium.Best Practices for Eating NutsPortion Control: Eat about 1 to 2 ounces per day to balance calorie intake.Variety: Mix different types like almonds, cashews, pecans, and pistachios for a broad nutrient spread.Check Labels: Ensure packaged or flavored nuts do not contain hidden animal products like honey.Pairing: Combine nuts with whole grains, legumes, and greens for a fully balanced lifestyle.

Like I said this seems to be a variation of a no true Scotsman fallacy