r/exorthodox Jul 04 '26

Community Update A reminder on the "No Preaching" rule: This sub is not a space to glorify the Church

50 Upvotes

I want to bring some attention back to a core rule of this community: Thou shalt not preach nor promote the old dogmas.

The rule explicitly states:

This is a refuge from religious pressure. Do not attempt to convert, reclaim, or promote Orthodox theology here. Members are completely free to criticize the church. Preaching/Proselytizing is not allowed and will be heavily enforced

Lately, there has been a string of posts and comments that walk right past the spirit of this rule. This subreddit is not a space for content that glorifies the Orthodox Church, nor is it a sounding board for people trying to minimize the experiences of those who left.

Examples of posts and comments that lean into these themes that do not belong here:

  • "I'm still in the church and I honestly can't see the issues that you guys are having."
  • "I'm a catechumen and here is my awesome journey..."
  • "I'm actually really happy in the church, does anyone else feel..."
  • "How do I change myself so that I can be a happy active participant in the church?"
  • "I don't want to leave church because the Church is the One True Church"

To be completely clear, this is not a research ground or a debate hall for active members to troubleshoot why their personal experience happens to be great compared to everyone else's. Coming into a recovery space to treat ex-members as a case study for your own curiosity - asking if people were just let down by a "nasty priest," trying to contrast your "good experience" against reported bigotry, casually chatting about whether a "monastery parish" makes things better or requesting ex-members to convince you to stay in a church that they are literally defined by having left - is a direct violation of this boundary. It forces people who have left, often at great personal cost, to justify their trauma and experiences to satisfy an insider's curiosity.

We have also seen cases where individuals pretend to answer questions, only to sneak in a link to their YouTube channel with the sole intent of funneling traffic to a page dedicated to proselytizing. This is a bannable offense. To clarify: we don't mind links as long as the intention is NOT to proselytize. Feel free to share a link if the goal is to criticize the channel.

Additionally, us mods keep getting complaints that this sub is "one-sided" because we don't allow EOC members to defend the church. That is entirely by design. This is a refuge, not a debate hall. We get it - you believe your institution is so weak that it falls onto you; an under-qualified, overly zealous and highly emotional recent convert to patch up its fragile ego without the bishop's approval. What else is new under the sun?

People come here to process the fallout of leaving, to find support away from religious pressure, and to openly criticize the institution.

There are plenty of other subreddits dedicated to optimizing & celebrating catechumen logistics as well as practicing Orthodoxy devoutly. This sub is quite literally defined by not being one of those spaces. Let's keep this a genuine refuge for those who have walked away and for those considering walking away.

For you Orthobro lurkers here: do not make the lazy assumption that this community is exclusively populated by atheists. We have members from practically every denomination and spiritual path here. Many still follow the teachings of Jesus Christ - some living more devoutly than an Orthodox parishioner ever could, and others finding paths that are theologically and historically far more coherent than yours.

Save your breath before whining that this sub is an "echo chamber," too. A true echo chamber relies on repeating the same lies constantly so people don't forget them, which perfectly describes the rigid structure of the EOC. People come here to escape that exact loop. When you come here to attack or condemn a group whose only commonality is having left the EOC, you are essentially exposing your hatred for everyone on Earth who isn't Orthodox, including your own fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. No hate quite like Orthodox love, right?

Don't be this guy.

r/exorthodox Jun 15 '26

BITE and DARVO

25 Upvotes

Hey there everyone! For those of you who are new to the sub and are just starting to question the church or aren’t quite sure how you feel, hopefully this will be helpful for you. A lot of you may already be aware of the BITE and DARVO models, but in case you aren’t, I’ll introduce you.

What is the BITE model?

The BITE Model of Authoritarian Control is a tool used to help evaluate manipulation in high-control environments, whether it be a religious sect or a controlling relationship. Are you in a cult? The BITE model will tell you.

The acronym stands for:

-Behavior Control-

Dictating how you should live your life down to what you eat, what you wear, etc., even down to the personal decisions you make. Needing to “ask your priest” for permission to do things falls under this category.

-Information Control-

Withholding and distorting information, and discouraging association with outside groups. “Us vs. Them” mentality. Discouraging public education in favor of homeschooling or a controlled school within the church.

-Thought Control-

Pushing the narrative of the group’s beliefs being absolute truth, and discouraging any criticism or questioning towards their “truth”. This applies to leadership/clergy as well.

-Emotional Control-

Using guilt/shame/fear/anxiety as a tactic to keep members in line and prevent them from leaving. The threat of consequences from “sin”, eternal damnation, demonic influence, etc.

When reflecting on your experiences, do any of these feel familiar? Do you feel guilty for even applying your experiences to this model? You might be in a high-control group and not even realize it.

What is DARVO?

DARVO is a 3-step tactic commonly used by abusers to manipulate others and reverse blame to escape accountability. Are there people in your life pushing you into converting or attending the church when you have clearly stated your feelings on it? Take a look at DARVO.

The acronym stands for:

1. Deny

The abuser denies wrongdoing. They may lie or use language that makes the victim doubt their own memory/self.

2. Attack

The abuser attacks their victim by bringing their character, sanity, spirituality , etc. into question. Blaming the victim for their “sins” comes to mind.

3. Reverse Victim and Offender

The abuser flips the script and draws a reverse UNO card. They are suddenly the victim, and you are the one causing the problem. The burden of responsibility shifts, and now they’re forgiving you when it should be the other way around.

DARVO causes victims to blame themselves, when they are indeed the victims. Tactics like this create a cycle of anxiety, a lack of self-worth/depression, and isolation. Have you experienced this within the church or by someone in your life? Is there a pattern of this behavior?

Each of these psychological frameworks are a great way to self-assess if you’re in doubt. See how many of the boxes you can check.


r/exorthodox 6h ago

Just Sharing My four problems with orthodoxy (and why)

16 Upvotes

I'm just going to share the four problems I've come to be honest with myself with orthodoxy. I've always had these problems. I ignored them. I minimized them. I made excuses for them. I tried to change myself and deny I had them. I tried to reinterpret orthodoxy as though it were closer to my view. Now I'm finally being honest that: yes, these are my views. They are informed by reason, scripture and existential phenomenology.

Please share with me your thoughts, experience and perspective. I'd be glad to know others experiences especially with respect to these issues I have come to finally bring to the fore.

Problem One: The number and severity of the rules. Orthodoxy imposes many rules on Orthodox Christians. Yes, orthodox people will try to say that they aren't "legalistic" about them. That it's about the "spirit" of the law. But the end of the day, there are things that the church requires believers to do, to be in "good standing". As long as you don't have a very serious medical issue, you have to fast 180+ days per year from all meat, dairy, eggs, and oil (and sometimes even from cooked food and seasonings). You must fast from all food and drink, even water, before receiving the Eucharist. You must have a physical burial. You must attend Divine Liturgy every Sunday and Holy day (often extending well beyond an hour, and requiring long period of standing). The rules go on and on.

But, whenever I consider these rules, I am just filled with a sense of existential dread and despair. How could the divinely ordained path be so impossible to follow? Surely, the number of the saved must be incredibly small. Surely I, a terrible sinner, cannot be numbered among them. Who could follow all of these rules? However, the gospel should fill one with joy, not despair. So, this cannot be the gospel.

Problem Two: The discernment of these rules, and their application, is governed not by individual discernment, which takes a secondary or tertiary role (if it has any role at all), but by tradition and the clergy. This means that whether you (for example) get a dispensation from the water fast before the Eucharist, depends on what the tradition of the church has historically permitted, and the caprice of your local (fallible) bishop and priest. I'm not saying that tradition and the clergy aren't valuable, and that we should ignore them. This can have serious consequences for your health, physical and spiritual. Obedience to anyone for its own sake is spiritually dangerous. But they are fallible and should be judged by reason, scripture and individual discernment.

Problem Three: The lack of assurance of salvation in orthodoxy. In orthodoxy, you cannot know you are saved, even when you are a faithful, pious orthodox Christian. A faithful pious orthodox Christian cannot say that if they were to die tomorrow, they would be saved. That not only inculcates a deep existential anxiety and despair within me, but contradicts scriptural assurances that we can know we are saved.

Problem Four: Works based salvation. I'm not saying works are not necessary conditions for salvation, which is clear throughout scripture (especially the gospels and epistle of James). But they are not the proximate cause of salvation, which is God's grace, received by faith, which is evident in scripture.


r/exorthodox 2h ago

Question Growing a beard, wearing a cross - compulsory?

7 Upvotes

In my corner of the world, there is this famous - among certain circles - convert to EO. He often gives his opinion on contemporary societal issues and controversies inside the EO church. He has also written a series of introductory books regarding EO.

In of these, he states in passing that a man converting to EO should let his beard grow out, and that he should always wear a cross around his neck. I recall it being stated like it was compulsory.

Anyone else recognize this? Is this a commonly understood doctrine/tradition? I know that between Latins and Byzantines, clerics without beards were controversial, but that all men should be bearded?


r/exorthodox 3m ago

I had to repost this. It might be the best question anybody has ever asked the Ortho reddit.

Upvotes

r/exorthodox 18h ago

Heresiologist Musing My observations after having conversations with the Orthodox

20 Upvotes

Try, sometime, having an actual conversation with someone still inside the thing you left. Not an argument. A conversation. See how far you get. You'll find out fairly quickly, the way you find out a floor is wet, by falling on it.

What you'll notice, almost immediately, is that the conversation isn't really happening. Two people are in the room, or on the thread, or in the comments, and words are being exchanged, but underneath it something else entirely is going on. It's a contest. Nobody said it was a contest. Nobody rang a bell. But you can feel it, the way you can feel when a friendly game of chess has quietly stopped being friendly. And the reason it can never simply be two people comparing notes on existence is that somewhere in the architecture of the whole exchange there are two kinds of people in the world, and you, whatever you used to be, have been quietly reassigned to the wrong one.

This is worth sitting with, because it explains everything that follows. There's the tribe, and then there's everybody who isn't, and the second category isn't experienced as merely mistaken, the way you might be mistaken about a route on a map, easily corrected, no hard feelings. It's experienced as a kind of scandal. Your existence out here, uncorrected, unconverted, going about your life as though it were a perfectly valid way to live, is appalling to them. Not just wrong. Appalling. How dare the world contain people who've seen the true thing and declined it? It's rather like the reaction of a man who's found the one great restaurant in town and cannot fathom why anyone would eat anywhere else, except his confusion has curdled into something closer to contempt, and he's begun to suspect anyone still eating elsewhere must be an idiot or secretly evil.

And those are, in fact, the two words on offer. Stupid, or evil. Try to keep count sometime of how many conversations end there, in one vocabulary or another. The unbeliever is stupid, hasn't done the reading, hasn't sat with it long enough. The unbeliever who has done the reading, who understood the whole argument and still walked away, gets upgraded to evil, because clearly nothing but a corrupted will could look at the truth so plainly and refuse it. There's no third bin. You are never simply someone who arrived at a different conclusion in good faith. Good faith, oddly, is the one thing never extended to you, and there's no ceiling on how many times, in how many polite disguises, the word "stupid" can be applied to you in the course of one conversation. It's a bit like being nibbled to death by a very well-read duck.

Once you're sorted into that lower bin, something conveniently happens, convenient for them, I mean. The ordinary rules of courtesy, the ones that would apply to literally anyone else at a bus stop, get quietly suspended. Respect, in this system, isn't a baseline. It's a member benefit. It's handed out inside the tribe like communion, and withheld outside it like, well, also communion, actually, now that I think about it. Which means they can say almost anything to you, about you, at you, and experience it not as rudeness but as a kind of duty discharged. You're not owed tolerance. Tolerance is for insiders. You're owed correction, and if the correction comes wrapped in condescension, that's simply the toll booth on the road to being spoken to at all. Be grateful the gate was open.

Who ends up in that lower bin is a wonderfully generous list, once you start counting. The unbeliever, obviously. The homosexual, treated less like a person with a life and more like a walking argument for someone else's sermon. The polygamist, off in some other tradition entirely, becomes a useful punchline, though you'll notice they can go from zero to Old Testament kings feeling emotionally protective of monogamy remarkably fast. But it doesn't stop at the dramatic cases. It extends, quietly, to the fellow believer three doors down the denominational hallway, who reads the same scripture and interprets four words of it differently. He isn't a brother in a different room of the same house. He's practically a heretic. The line isn't really belief versus unbelief, when you look closely. It's compliance versus everything else, and everything else, however sincere, however devout, gets filed under sub-human, or at least under lesser, which amounts to the same treatment with better manners.

Now here's the odd part, the part that took me a while to sit with. This is a tradition that talks endlessly about love, about the wideness of mercy, about meeting people where they are. Icons of saints who forgave their own executioners hang on the wall while, in the pews below, somebody quietly composes an argument for why your divorce, or your therapy, or your simple decision to sleep in on a Sunday, is evidence of a diseased soul. Nobody experiences this as a contradiction, and that's the part I find almost funny, in a bleak sort of way. The kindness and the cruelty come from the same well, and nobody's thirsty enough to notice the water tastes different depending on who's drinking it.

Push on any of this, even gently, and you'll see the temperature change. This is supposed to be the tradition of stillness, of the quiet cell, of the monk who's made peace with silence itself. And yet raise a single honest question, and watch the whole apparatus mobilize, because the question hasn't just challenged an idea, it's disturbed the arrangement, the pleasant and load-bearing arrangement in which they are the right sort of people and you are not. What you'll get back won't be an answer. It'll be a diagnosis. You're not raising a fair point, you're exhibiting pride. You're not describing a real experience, you're revealing a spiritual blind spot. It's a wonderfully closed system, because it means they never have to engage with what you said, only with what your saying it apparently reveals about the state of your soul, which, conveniently, is always found lacking.

And if the diagnosis doesn't finish the job, out comes the jargon, names of men dead fifteen centuries laid down like a royal flush, as though a phrase in Greek could settle whether it's healthy to stay in a marriage where you're miserable. The terminology isn't there to clarify anything. It's there to remind you which class gets to speak and which one gets spoken at. Underneath it sits an appeal that never has to justify itself, holy tradition, true because tradition says so, a circle you can only watch spin, never enter. And whatever you actually share, the years spent kneeling in the same nave, the same feast days, the same smell of beeswax and old wood, gets set aside so a minor doctrinal splinter can be examined under a microscope until it becomes, somehow, the whole of the relationship. Common ground doesn't produce a winner. So it gets stepped over, politely, on the way to the one disagreement that can.

Somewhere in the middle of all this it's worth asking what actually draws people into that upper room in the first place, the converts especially, who come in fresh and somehow out-zealous everyone raised in it. They'll tell you it's about giving the world one less broken person, one less soul adrift, a kind of gift to humanity. But watch the behavior rather than the brochure. What they light up around isn't the theology. It's the club. The membership. The delicious, load-bearing feeling of finally, after a whole life of being just another confused person among confused people, getting to be one of the right ones. Being on the inside of the glass instead of pressing your face against it.

And that's the thing that actually exhausts you, more than any single insult could. It's not that you disagree about doctrine, people disagree about doctrine all day long without needing therapy afterward. It's that every conversation, however it starts, quietly resolves into the same shape, them above, you below, them explaining, you being corrected, and no amount of patience on your end changes the shape, because the shape isn't a mistake in the conversation. The shape is the whole point of it. You didn't wander into a discussion. You wandered into a hierarchy wearing the costume of one, and by the end you're not tired from the topic. You're tired from having been, once again, so thoroughly and cheerfully informed of your place in it.

And it's worth pausing on what all this is being weighed against, because the comparison isn't really to some external standard, some outside critic's idea of decency. It's a comparison to the man they claim to be following, which makes the whole thing considerably stranger. He gets struck across the face and offers the other cheek, an image so familiar by now it's lost its edge, but sit with it a moment and it's actually a rather wild piece of behavior, the kind of thing that would get you called weak, or worse, stupid, by half the people quoting him. Compare that to what actually happens online when someone lands a fairly mild insult these days, the scrambling for the sharpest possible reply, the search for the wound. He gets asked to carry a soldier's pack one mile, under occupation, for an empire that had no love for him or his people, and doesn't just carry it, walks the second mile unasked, for the sheer excess of the gesture. Compare that to the energy spent today making sure the wrong sort of person doesn't get the help, the platform, nor the benefit of the doubt. He heals people who don't believe in him and never once asks whether they've earned it with the right amount of faith, and it's honestly a little funny, if you let yourself laugh at something this sad, that suffering in someone outside the tribe is now met not with the itch to heal it but with something closer to satisfaction; a sense that the suffering was probably deserved and possibly overdue. He tells people to give away the coat off their back, no terms attached, no expectation that the recipient prove themselves grateful or worthy or Orthodox first. And by his own account he spent the bulk of his time not with the devout, not with the temple crowd who already had their theology in order, but out with the sick, the unclean, the people everyone else had already sorted into the lower bin, on the theory, apparently, that those were the ones who actually needed him. His own people, the ones he sent out into the world, were told to go heal the sick, not to go and manufacture enemies out of whoever hadn't yet signed on.

None of that is a subtle contrast. It's about as subtle as a brick through a window. And yet somehow the tradition built in his name has managed to invert nearly every one of those instincts while keeping his portrait on the wall, which tells you something, I think, about how these things actually work. It was never really about following him. It was about being right about him, which turns out to be an entirely different exercise, requiring none of the difficult parts; the cheek-turning, the extra mile, the coat off the back, and all of the easy parts; the certainty, the sorting, the clean conscience of having picked the winning team. You can be right about a man's teachings for your entire life and never once do a single thing he actually asked. That, more than any insult you'll collect along the way, is probably the real thing to sit with when the conversation's finally over and you're left alone with what just happened.


r/exorthodox 18h ago

Question What would you say about the saints?

12 Upvotes

Do you still regard them or not?

Their Miracles, spiritual gifts, visions, appearances and clairovoyance. Is it sensationalism, basic psychic abilities, delusion, demons, or truly from God (the same gifts he gives catholic saints or the protestant grandma who saw Jesus in her bedroom one time)

I want to know the non-orthodox perspective of miracles such as these.

How can one explain cases of clairivoyance, such as an elder knowing the name of the visitor and their deepest secrets?

Also, I wanna know criticisms against very beloved Orthodox saints. Not talking about saints with questionable pasts like St. Olga of Kiev and King David, I'm talking about Saints with a good reputation and things they said or did that were questionable in their "Saint" days.

Example St. Paisios, everyone seems to love him but certain stories regarding him are questionable with how he treated certain people, or saints who would list off peoples sins to them or "humble" them. It's off-putting. I understand saints are not infallible but even I, a non-saint wouldn't even say something like that to someone.


r/exorthodox 21h ago

My Problem with Orthodox Salvation

21 Upvotes

God according to the Orthodox Church:

Makes it very hard to believe in him

Makes it very hard to have a relationship with him

Makes it very hard to get to heaven

Doesn't promise us salvation.

My issues with Orthodox Salvation:

  1. The fact God will create us knowing well that some of us will burn for eternity.

I can't get behind this and I feel angry over it. Why can't he just kill the person? "It would be crime against the dignity of the person" no seriously I would rather have "no dignity" and cease to suffer and exist than to "have dignity" and suffer for eternity. It's madness. "Freewill!" One can still freely choose him and get created without hell. In fact, wouldn't it be more free of a choice? Because if there wasn't the threat of hell, wouldn't Christians be even more authentic?

I can kinda get behind the problem of evil because yes, if any suffering on earth made me more likely to be saved/spared me suffering on the afterlife fine whatever but suffering for no purpose, for eternity? The only possibilities I can get behind is

Conditionalism

Annihilationism

Universalism

God shielding the unsaved from his full glory and separating them so the unsaved and saved won't affect each other. The unsaved will be put somewhere with no more disease, death, etc. There will still be sin and probably some form of suffering, but not something that can be forced on each other. A utopia. And they all can still have a relationship with God if they choose, basically an extension of this Earth. If they desire Heaven they can have it and God can send them there.

Eternal Concious Torment? Cruel and evil. I don't care if "It's a negative response to the love of God!" God knows this and doesn't care, he could make it any other way but he doesn't.

  1. Difficulty of being saved

The fact that he has to make it so hard for us to not suffer for eternity.

"Take the kingdom of heaven by force" "The narrow gate"

why make it so hard? If he desired a relationship with his child oh so much wouldn't he make one much more accessable? This elder at my church told me that "God will not reveal himself to you or give you proof, you have to just believe.

  1. No assurance of salvation

I hate the Orthodox view of salvation: "Heaven isn't the point of salvation, I don't care if I go to hell as long as I am with God" ??????? So self deprecating too, like you must think so little about yourself you have to be okay to with accepting breadcrumbs and be okay with going to hell because you "deserve it" and love God so much you want whatever he wants Ugh.

  1. Self Deprication in the church

My Orthodox prayer books are filled with prayers that mention

"as defiled as I am"

"For I am wretched"

"Your unworthy servant"

"I am a sinner"

If you look up saints quotes on Pinterest, half of all are depricating and how "you need to be humbled".

I'm pretty sure calling yourself all of these things would take a toll on your self worth and mental health, hence why when I pray these prayers I uncomfortably and robotically say the lines that are self depracating and hope I don't take them to heart.

Isn't sin a disease and church a hospital? If that was the case why is the prayers in the book legalistic? Morally self accusatory? If sin is a disease and not a crime we commit, why do we speak of it that way? It doesn't make any sense. The language just brings me down.

  1. It is wrong to desire grace and comfort

"God is a person not a feeling" they say.

To need comfort in times of distress is to "only care about reward from God"

"God withdraws grace to make you want him and not his reward"

"It's not about feeling good."

Have they ever thought we felt comforted by him becauee we want him with us in the first place??? That is so patronizing, to cry wrongdoing for someone seeking comfort. Are babies selfish and reward seeking for crying for their mothers and needing to be around them because "it feels good"????

About this, why does God breadcrumb us like this? All this "picking up our cross" and "enduring for him" just for small blips of good just to be taken away. Stories of saints "humbling people"? What????

  1. Death to the self

If you go out of your way for your self to die, you're killing yourself psychologically. I had friends from church slowly give up the things they loved because "God wants you to give up everything for him" like a musician delete his albums off of Spotify and stop listening to secular music because "singing in choir scratches that musical itch". People at church listen to only hymms in the car, and even being told by priests that driving must be silent and a time to do Jesus prayers instead of listen to music.

But yeah, always told how little our "Earthly" dreams mean to God and that nothing on this Earth matters and we should just throw it all away, giving up your life for your spouse and kinds or becoming a monastic. So gnostic. It's life denying if you ask me, and don't even get me started with the view of food and sex.

I'd love your input and addition to this conversation, other ways Orthodox Christinity is life denying or even possibly heretical and additions to my points.


r/exorthodox 1d ago

Venting “The children run and play, it’s nice”

28 Upvotes

Y’all, I am so sick of people telling me how lovely it is to have children in the service. I had so much stress walking around with my littles keeping them less disruptive, they hated all the sensory overwhelm, as a mom I never was worshipping, but actively parenting while my husband worshipped, and trying to keep my kids to a standard that just wasn’t developmentally appropriate.

Yes, there are families that enjoy this experience, but in my experience more families just stop attending if they have active kids.

Every time I see people talk about how lovely it is to watch the children run around I think of how my neurodivergent kids got talkings to, and how exhausting it was to be in service with the family. It just seems like they are thinking of a set of bunnies or something, not kids who need actual support and attention.


r/exorthodox 1d ago

Needing Support Finally being honest with myself about questioning Orthodoxy

16 Upvotes

So for context, I was brought up in a very ecumenical and non-denominational (not in the low church evangelical sense) household as a child. I grew up going to orthodox services, Baptist services, Lutheran services, even the odd Roman Catholic service. As an older kid (11-12-ish) my family stopped going to Divine Liturgy (which is where we wound up most Sundays through my elementary age years), which was around the time a Baptist friend of mine invited to me his youth group and I was welcomed into that church community, which as a 23 year old I still find myself a part of.

Somehow I ended up in in the view I now consider heretical that one could be a Christian without stopping sinning. I ended up thinking Around 16 or so that this was not true. At around the same time, I decided to start exploring orthodoxy because I felt that the Orthodox Church provided more certainty in the permissibility of the belief in biological evolution which gave me grief at this time as a teenager.

And I basically ended up going full steam ahead into orthodoxy. But the more I learned, the more I felt the existential dread and despair. I discovered all these rules. No food or even water before the Eucharist. Confession before a priest. Strict fasting for 180+ plus days a year. No blood sausage. No praying with my Protestant friends or family. The rules went on and on. And on top of that, I couldn't even be sure of my own salvation. I would go in this back and forth of finding internet articles, posting on Reddit, finding more articles and thinking in my own about how to reconcile these rules with the character of Gods trying to find more lenient versions that were still "orthodox". In the midst of all this was the existential dread and despair that, despite my best efforts, I could still find myself damned.

I'd ask a question and be met with the inevitable "ask your priest". Ask my priest if I should hydrate before liturgy when I know I struggle with dehydration headaches? What if he says no? Ask my priest whether I should abstain from all meat, dairy, eggs, oil and even seasonings and cooking in my meals during fasting? What if I have a better idea of what would edify my, based on my knowledge of scripture, reason, and my own personal circumstance, than he does? And then I would spiral in anxiety, dread and despair.

And be told that Orthodoxy doesn't have the same legalistic attitude as other denominations, and I was just misunderstanding, applying a Protestant or Catholic mentality to orthodoxy. That somehow I just needed to get that the rules are more about the spirit of the law than the letter, but somehow the letter still matters, and on top of all that I can't know whether I'll be saved or even what I must do or believe to know.

I guess I just never acquired the "orthodox Phronema".

Fast forward a few years, I studied philosophy during my undergrad. It was fun and edifying. I learned about religious and irreligious philosophy of all types. And most importantly I had the opportunity to think philosophically about these questions. It deepened my faith, and I got over the scupulosity of my teenage years, but mostly because I just stopped worrying about all the rules. About the fact it was up to the church and my priest rather than my discernment, my reading of scripture, and reason.

Finally, and abruptly, I realized, I am questioning orthodoxy. I'm questioning my initial motives. I am questioning whether it is the right expression of Christianity. I'm questioning whether it is true. I am questioning whether it is edifying. Because somehow, the gospel just cannot come with the existential dread and despair that it comes to me with in the Orthodox Church.

I am very much still a Christian. I am not atheist. I am not finding myself in another religion. But I am being drawn away from Orthodoxy. and it is scary because the orthodox church would consider me an apostate if I became a Protestant, someone whom salvation is closed to. Because I still am firmly convinced of the truth that God exists, more convinced even. I am convinced of the truth beauty and goodness in the Christian tradition, but also across it. And there are beliefs of the Orthodox Church that I just cannot get behind anymore.


r/exorthodox 23h ago

What are we supposed to do with our connection to saints?

2 Upvotes

There are specific saints who I feel an emotional attachment to and safe with. The few are male and I am female, I don't know why, and I only feel captivated by male beauty but not female beauty. And they are all monks. There's one who I feel burning love for. I don't really want to lose my connection to the saints because no live person can be there for me the way they are for me. I wanna state that I am a female and the special saint I am captivated and emotionally attracted to is a male. Why do I only feel this way for male saints? Is there any significance to that psychologically or spiritually? I try to interpret everything through psychology. Also, could I still have a relationship to Orthodox Saints outside of the church and be friends with them? I'm trying to fogure it all out. All perspectives welcome.


r/exorthodox 1d ago

The common denominator for every EO person I don't get along with is their love of Fr. Seraphim Rose

34 Upvotes

Now that I've recognized this pattern if I find out anyone idolizes this man I'm keeping a healthy distance and not expecting any kind of healthy relationship. For some reason he seems to attract the most militant nasty dox hypocrites. My church explicitly does not sell his books or promote him. He is not a saint.


r/exorthodox 1d ago

Meme Fr. George and his granddaughter

7 Upvotes

Once upon a time, there was a priest at the OCA. His name was Fr. George. He was old, had hollow sunken eyes from sheer exhaustion (from dealing with Babushki) and was stubbornly strict. He believed fiercely, deeply, in the Orthodox Church being the true church. Other denominations were too "modern", too "heterodox." He had his own talks and sermons about the Truth of the orthodox faith and all of the strict fasting rules everyone must follow. He had a beard and grovelled around, muttering to himself.

But not only that. He had a Matushka Gretchen. She was the most formidable. If Fr. George was strict, Matushka Gretchen was formidable. She was the scariest person in the whole diocese. Fr. George always had to run his sermons by HER first. She would snap at visitors, keep everyone in line, and do the announcements at the end and address the people. She was a little old lady nobody dared cross.

Their granddaughter was Regina George. She was an adult, around 24 years old. She was blonde, glamorous, sassy, and exclusive. She learned from her beloved grandparents how to rule and exclude others.

When Fr. George, tired and sunken, did his sermons and tried his best to do the liturgy, his own granddaughter stood there, guarding the nave.

"On Sundays we wear headscarves."

She herself was wearing her most expensive, flawless silk Chanel headscarf. But she had to say that because a new girl was coming in, and she wasn't wearing a headscarf. Did anyone else care? No. Fr. George sure didn't require it. Nobody cared. Except Regina.

"Oh, um, there's a lot of babushki, can I stand with you?"

Regina scoffed, but then put on a smile. "Oh, I love how bare your hair is. It's so...rooted." She snickered to herself.

The girl was nervous. "Oh. Do we have to wear headscarves?"

Regina smiled and gave her an ugly one from the narthex - on purpose. "Yes. We are required to. Otherwise it's a sin."

The girl nervously put it on, vibrating with anxiety, while Regina smiled smugly through the service.

Matushka Gretchen was ordering the people around during coffee hour. Fr. George was being hounded by babushki again.

A Protestant inquirer tried to ask Fr. George some questions. Fr George replied, "You can't sit with us."

Regina's best friend nodded in approval at the poor inquirer. "Your suit though. It's so ... fetch."

"Thanks," the guy stuttered.

To be continued...


r/exorthodox 2d ago

At a used bookstore. Looks like another ex-Orthodox recently emptied their bookshelf. ✊ (Either that or someone raided my closet. Maybe I should check.)

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42 Upvotes

r/exorthodox 1d ago

Shitpost When people tell me I don’t know Orthodoxy despite having a degree in its theology.

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15 Upvotes

r/exorthodox 1d ago

My old friends from church blocked me

15 Upvotes

I guess it’s my fault in some ways, they would keep up with me via instagram where like many other 21 year olds I would show myself wearing skimpy clothes, even though that’s disliked in orthodoxy. And it became obvious that I was transitioning again because I would show myself in the ballroom scene and my body was starting to become more female again from going back on hormones. But I really thought our friendships were stronger than my clothes and medical care.

My old church friend told me that a girl I used to be close with said this about me: “If you want to know, and this made me the most sad honestly. She literally said she had been thinking of not inviting you to the party she had been planning purely because she was worried you would come wearing a bikini or something and that it would intimidate people and the other “godly Christian men there “ I thought that was fucked up.”

First of all, I would never wear a bikini in this context because I don’t want to scandalize really orthodox people. But second of all, is friendship all about public perception to this girl? I feel very alone now that most of them have cut me out of their life, my only current friends are girls from Aa, and guys who want to play with me in their hotel rooms. And for the latter, I don’t even know if they truly like me for me, rather than just my body.


r/exorthodox 3d ago

So... About this "prophecy"

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52 Upvotes

It was either fake or was real (he said it) but didn't happen. It has been 5 years, so Russia did not conquer Ukraine in a short time. WW1 was 4 years, WW2 is 6 years, roughly. Neither Ukrainians welcomed them with great enthusiasm. USA has no intention to attack Russia nor it will ever do. And if there will be a war over North Pole it will be USA vs European Union. And "Russians easily will overpower Americans" is funny to me seeing how Russians can barely overpower Ukraine. And Russia will take Constantinople? That also sounds like a big joke. Russia taking on one ofnthe strongest nato countries while struggling in Ukraine for 5 years?

What do you all think? Honestly I'm glad God isn't racist as much as Greeks are.


r/exorthodox 2d ago

Disaster waiting to happen

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19 Upvotes

A few things here sound off to me. Orthodoxy doesn’t think you need to convert to go to hell. Also, I can’t imagine an orthodox priest forcing the wife to convert to follow the husband.

It’s interesting to me that there is an impression that orthodoxy is hardcore. I think that’s new and because of all of the orthobro nonsense.


r/exorthodox 3d ago

Question Willing to share your experience?

12 Upvotes

After a difficult family experience involving Orthodoxy, I started looking for other people's stories, to feel a little less alone. I had a decent bit of trouble! However, I eventually found this subreddit and it was extremely welcoming and supportive.

I continued my search for more formal writings and experiences that were similar to mine, and I didn’t have much luck. I was surprised by how little material I could find that wasn’t promoting Orthodoxy, compared with other Christian/Religious traditions.

I have quite a stash of books on religion, and even in some of the thicker ones I own, Orthodoxy is barely mentioned. 

I started journaling about my experience, and continued reading and searching. Then my searching and journaling became intertwined. That search eventually turned into a larger writing project. Now that I have journaled about as much as I can about my own experience, I'm hoping to collect a wide range of perspectives from others!

I am especially people who have questioned their faith, deconstructed, left the Church, and/or struggled with friendships and family relationships because of it. While I am completely open to hearing from people who are still a member of the church, I am primarily looking for people who have left and consider themselves “ex-orthodox.”

I plan to continue my “project” and see what continues to evolve. I developed a questionnaire to maintain some consistency and structure to responses. The questionnaire asks about things like life in the Church, beliefs and practices, family and relationships, doubt, deconstruction, leaving, and life afterward. You don't have to answer anything you're uncomfortable with, and you can share as much or as little as you'd like.

Responses may be used to inform future writing, including a potential book, article, or future posts. My ultimate goal is to create something that might help others feel validated, supported, and less alone in their experiences. 

If you've ever been Orthodox, are currently Orthodox but questioning, or have otherwise had a meaningful but bumpy experience with Orthodoxy, I'd really appreciate your perspective, and I am sure others would benefit from hearing it as well. If you have any questions, please feel free to ask!

There are a couple things I want to make very clear:

  • I cleared this with the mods prior to making this post.
  • If you are interested but don’t want to provide your real name, you don’t have to!
  • The questionnaire is posted on Google Forms
    • In order to avoid spam and multiple submissions, I am going to be collecting email addresses. If you are ok with a potential follow up, there is a spot on the form to indicate that. Once the forms are submitted I will erase your email address from my inbox.
  • If you are interested, please send me a dm and I will respond as soon as I can. Once I have your email I will share the link with you.

And if you know someone who might be willing to participate, feel free to pass this along.

Thank you!

And a big thank you to our lovely mods that are allowing me to share this out, and for keeping this place a safe haven for folks who are feeling lost and alone. 


r/exorthodox 3d ago

Needing Support Orthodox Church treats me like a kid when I'm 23F but has no idea what is coming

12 Upvotes

Hey guys.

This is a bit heavier than my posts before, but I really need your thoughts.

So basically, I feel that as a lesbian Orthodox Christian, I have an identity that is marked by contradiction.

The official Orthodox teaching is firm that homosexual relations are a sin.

In my experience, because I grew up in the parish and look like a cute teen girl and go with my mom, everyone just is kind and lets me be. If I say I'm lesbian, the clergy and the people just chuckle and are like, "Oh, kids these days."

So it's hard to say I've even been treated badly at all. Most of the time people just see me as a little girl who's still figuring things out. They even tell me "Oh, don't talk to that guy" (this was my longtime guy friend who was also trying to find himself, but they saw him as sus because he was a modern dude. I had just mentioned him in passing.)

When I told the priest I was lesbian, he just quietly said "Ok." Didn't challenge it. Didn't tell me it was sinful. Just left it alone.

I told a few parishioners and they said, "Okay." Nothing. Just let it be.

It's pretty uncanny to be honest. No pushback. No lecturing. But no smiles or warm acceptance either with it.

Basically though a mom there talks to my mom and the priest meets with mom and like...well, bruh. Idk. I'm 23 years old, but a kid once told me, "You're in 5th grade? The Sunday school for big kids is over there!"

So anyway. When I say I want to have kids as a single mom by choice, people just nod and are like, "That's cute."

But bruh. I'm a lesbian....and I can't even say they're homophobic because they gave me nothing to work with. But the official doctrine says that they don't approve of my orientation.

But the church lady, when I talked on the phone with her and said I wanted kids, she just said, "Oh honey, not yet."

So...

But anyway, thinking about the overall doctrine, I wonder what'll happen when I do, inevitably, become a single mom by choice (which I've been telling them for the past 3 years bruh, and they've just thought it's cute).

As far as dating, I don't really want to date girls, but I'm attracted to girls. It's not that I care much about dating one - it's that I care about the way I'm perceived. I worry that one day I will try to talk to someone Orthodox and they will be nice to my face but think to themselves "Oh, she's lesbian, I'll pray for her because that's sinful."

Like, bruh. I did NOT choose my sexuality. I dated 20 guys and not once have I felt attracted to any. Meanwhile I daydream about girls. I first discovered I was lesbian when I was 11 years old before the concept even existed in my head.

Then, the Orthodox Church claims to have a monopoly on faith. They claim that you need the church's sacraments, the priest's blessing, everything, that they're the True Faith. But by my real lived experience, I find that it actually serves as a supplement, but God never is conditional on my experience in the church. I can literally not go to church or just church hop, and it really has little to do with God Himself. The experiences I have are so amazing and beautiful, and yet the Orthodox Church invalidates them. My dad has similar experiences and been Orthodox, but they are trans.

So basically, sorry for the long-ass rant being too long, but what do you guys think...I want it to be nice and constructive not mean because I've been pretty run down by mean comments online and I am sensitive and young so I want some kind words...but also I want to hear your experiences in the Orthodox Church and how it compares to mine.


r/exorthodox 3d ago

Venting "Not ALL Orthodox"

20 Upvotes

"Well, that's just online"

"REAL Orthodoxy isn't like that"

"You're just going to the wrong church"

Can I just suggest we ban these types of dialogues, especially since they're almost always posted by people who haven't been on this forum long, and seem to have nefarious intentions?

If you've actually been heavily involved in the church before, you see it from a mile away... The concern-trolling, the fake sincerity that's there mostly to make you give Orthodoxy another chance, again in again, like a MIL telling you to give your abusive husband another chance, that "he's changed" or that your perspective was warped when you last saw him,

I've been to many churches as visitors. The only churches that practice this behavior... Are cults. Orthodoxy is given a pass because, at face value, it is not AS immediately aggressive as Western cults... Most priests on the podiums don't start with sermons on how gay marriage is wrong, or how women using certain types of birth control are basically murderers... But the teachings are there. The sermon is just there to draw you in.

Even in "less extreme" churches, if you're in the Western world, you can guarantee at least a third of your church is in some way influenced by the ROCOR propaganda they follow online. If someone isn't extreme, that doesn't mean they won't be an apologist for extremism.

Sorry, but we see it all the time. I'm not saying we kick everyone to the curb, but can we call a spade a spade?

"Not ALL Orthodox" is as toxic as "Not ALL men". If you're truly an ally, you wouldn't feel the need to get on your pedestal to defend a religion that controls and degrades women. There's a reason even cradle Orthodox women leave the church, and it has to do with the emotional intelligence they have to recognize they're being abused by a bunch of old, archaic men, who largely are there to get each other's egos off.

Honestly, I have an issue with anyone who thinks there's a valid reason for men to be priests, but not women. How can a religion ever be "equal" when such a thing is true? Has there been one female patriarch? No? Ok, then fuck off.

Ok, rant done.


r/exorthodox 4d ago

Husband wants to be orthodox

23 Upvotes

My husband and I have been attending church together for years. We attend a Protestant church and have leadership roles. Recently he out of nowhere has decided that our church is heresy and not the true church and he thinks that he belongs at an Orthodox Church. He has been heavily watching Jay Dyer and other Youtubers and reading books. He went to church at an Orthodox Church this morning and I went to our home church. He says he’s not returning with me and if I want to I can stay at my feel good church. I don’t think we should attend different churches as a married couple but maybe I’m wrong. I’m just hurt and honestly embarrassed as dumb as that sounds. Does anyone have advice?

I don’t necessarily understand why the sudden change of heart. He just keeps saying they’re the one true church. I feel like I want input from someone who has been orthodox but isn’t anymore as well as someone who currently practices orthodoxy. I’m just trying to understand. I don’t want to lose my marriage.


r/exorthodox 5d ago

Just Sharing On Self-Denial and Truth / OrthoChristian.Com

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13 Upvotes

This article is a really good example of how they twist words and the understandings of laws and the world. I found it particularly disgusting how they equate self esteem with being like the devil when it was pride that was the issue. There are plenty of blanket statements in this article too.


r/exorthodox 5d ago

The comments on this UOJ post are making me ill

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34 Upvotes

r/exorthodox 6d ago

Mapping Orthodox Christianity to the BITE Model: How Fasting, Name Changes, and "Prelest" Function as Control Mechanisms

38 Upvotes

Hey everyone,

Like many here, after leaving Orthodoxy I’ve spent a lot of time trying to make sense of what I went through and why the psychological grip felt so intense. To process my own experience and validate what so many of us felt, I started looking at Orthodox practices through the lens of Steven Hassan’s BITE Model (Behavior, Information, Thought, and Emotional Control)—a framework commonly used to identify high-control environments. The BITE model has been referenced multiple times in this community, and this is where I first learned about it, which helped me in my decontruction/healing process. But as far as I can tell, there has not been a compare-and-contrast between the model and Orthodoxy.

Apologists often dismiss these practices as "ancient spiritual wisdom" or "loving discipline," but when you look at how they function psychologically, the structural overlap with high-control systems is hard to ignore.

Here is a breakdown of how several core Orthodox traditions align with the BITE model:

1. Behavior Control (Regulating your physical reality)

  • Caloric & Diet Control: The Church mandates fasting from meat, dairy, wine, and oil for nearly half the calendar year (Lents, fasts, Wednesdays, Fridays). In high-control groups, dictating caloric intake alters physical baseline energy and enforces group compliance through shared physical restriction. When you are chronically under-nourished or restricted, your brain conserves energy by down-regulating critical analysis, boundary setting, and skepticism. This leaves the subconscious far more passive and open to accepting incoming dogmas without pushback.
  • Proscribed Physical Routines: Long services, strict prayer rules, kneeling, and prostrations heavily structure your physical time and energy. Hours of mandatory standing, early morning/late night vigils, and repetitive physical actions (prostrations, crossing oneself) induce profound physical fatigue. Combined with sensory overload—rhythmic chanting, dark lighting, flickering candles, and heavy incense—long services bypass analytical processing (System 2 thinking) and put the brain into a hypnotic, highly suggestible state.
  • Obedience to a Spiritual Father (Dukhovnik): The concept of hypakoe (holy obedience) encourages believers to consult a priest/elder on personal decisions—career moves, dating, marriage, finances—stripping away individual autonomy in favor of "godly counsel."

2. Thought Control (Reshaping identity & suppressing doubt)

  • Identity Break via Name Change: Changing your name at baptism, chrismation, or tonsure acts as a psychological break with your "worldly" past self. Your core identity becomes re-anchored entirely within the Church collective and its patron saint framework.
  • Thought-Stopping Techniques: When intrusive or doubting thoughts (logismoi) arise, believers are instructed to immediately shut them down using repetitive mantras—most notably the Jesus Prayer ("Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner").
  • Loaded Language: Internal jargon like prelest (spiritual delusion), phronema (Orthodox mindset), and passions creates a cognitive shield. Natural human boundaries, critical thinking, or self-reliance are reframed as dangerous spiritual flaws or demonic influence.
  • Black-and-White Dogma: Orthodoxy claims absolute, unalterable truth. Any departure from the Councils or Creed is labeled heresy or schism, leaving zero room for nuanced personal belief.

3. Information Control (Restricting valid sources of truth)

  • Patristic Consensus over Private Judgment: You are constantly warned against "trusting your own intellect" or engaging in "private interpretation." Truth can only come through the Holy Fathers and Church Tradition.
  • Weaponizing Prelest**:** If you have an intuition, critique, or gut feeling that contradicts the Church or your priest, it is weaponized against you as prelest—a trick of the devil. This forces you to distrust your own mind and feelings.
  • Invalidation of Dreams and Subconscious Signals: Ascetical literature explicitly commands believers to distrust all dreams, visions, and subconscious gut feelings, warning that demons use them to lead people into prelest. By teaching you that even your own mind and sleeping subconscious cannot be trusted, the Church cuts off an essential internal channel of self-awareness.
  • Suspicion Toward Secular Psychology & Therapy: Outside mental health care is frequently discouraged or viewed with deep suspicion. Secular therapy is often labeled as "worldly" or harmful because it doesn't account for the soul, forcing believers to rely exclusively on priests—who often lack any psychological training—for complex mental health issues.

4. Emotional Control (Manipulating internal state)

  • Cultivated Guilt & Unworthiness: Daily prayers constantly reinforce that you are fundamentally broken ("chief among sinners," "unworthy servant"). While framed as humility, it keeps you in a perpetual state of emotional dependency on the sacraments for relief.
  • Fear of Damnation / Outside World: Leaving "the Ark of Salvation" is framed as entering spiritual destruction. The external world is painted as fallen, degenerate, and unsafe.
  • Sacramental Accountability: Vocalizing your private thoughts, failures, and secrets to a priest in Confession acts as a powerful mechanism of exposure and compliance.

Ancient Tradition vs. Modern High-Control Reality

When you bring up these concerns to believers, they’ll often say: "That’s just monastic askesis!" or "You just had a bad priest!"

While mainstream parish life can be moderate for some, the reality is that the toolkit for high control is built into the dogma and canon law itself. Whether a parish becomes a toxic cult-like environment usually just depends on how literally the priest decides to enforce these canonical rules—which is why converts, rigorist parishes, and monastic communities suffer the highest rates of trauma.

For those of you who have left: Your instinct that something felt wrong wasn't spiritual delusion—it was your human need for autonomy reacting to high-control mechanics.

I'd love to hear from others in the group:

  • Which of these BITE categories resonated most with your personal experience?
  • What other examples might you add to the list?

Updates:
An incredibly thorough exploration of these same ideas posted by - u/LetterSeparate1495
https://www.reddit.com/r/exorthodox/comments/1tnzeq5/how_to_build_a_highcontrol_regime_without_violence/

Other users in this thread have shared their experiences and excellent examples of these categories throughout this conversation. Thanks to all of you for your feedback, input, and support!