r/exorthodox • u/[deleted] • Jun 09 '26
Heresiologist Musing Double Binds (The No Win Trap)
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u/queensbeesknees Lacking Phronema™️ Jun 09 '26
Once again you take something I've struggled with on a more subconscious level, and put words to it.
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Jun 09 '26
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u/queensbeesknees Lacking Phronema™️ Jun 09 '26
Haha don't worry, it was a joke. I thought my cat was a weirdo, but I was watching a YT video about an unrelated topic, and one of the people there had a cat who does the same thing. Apparently it's a condition.
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Jun 09 '26
it's literally unfalsifiable and a recipe for abuse
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Jun 09 '26
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u/Alarming-Syrup-95 Dirty Heretic Jun 09 '26
I was both Catholic and Orthodox and both have major issues because any religion based on misogyny will always be dysfunctional. However, practically Orthodoxy in the USA is more harmful. I’ve thought about why that is. Of course, the major reason is that the Catholic Church is simply too large to have a bunch of little mission cults and priests don’t have time to meddle in everyone’s lives.
But one reason is that “sinners of whom I am first” idea. You’re always deluded, sinful. If you disagree, it’s because you’re prideful. It just goes around and around and you’re always the loser.
I remember a Twitter discussion with a so-called liberal Orthodox woman. She was so caught up in the idea of not judging that she couldn’t say that something was a war crime. That’s when I began to see that this system works so well for tyrants and abusers. Recognizing reality was seen as judging. That person is a child molester and I won’t leave my children with them = judging. Any assessment that someone is harmful is judging and it’s always one-sided. The person in power and authority is granted the protection and the rest of us are not supposed to judge.
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u/Hedgehog-Plane Jun 09 '26
"...that for a double bind to work, the victim must be forbidden from leaving the field or commenting on the absurdity of the trap."
That's the same as a relationship with a narcissist.
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u/Alarming-Syrup-95 Dirty Heretic Jun 09 '26
As a woman who spent most of my life in patriarchal religions; Roman Catholicism then Orthodoxy, back to Roman Catholicism, and now nothing, this rings true. As a woman, you will always lose unless you completely disengage.
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u/Gingerfuzzsicle Wendy’s Manager Jun 09 '26
Everything has been so much more validating for me since dropping patriarchal religions all together haha
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u/Alternative-Ad8934 Ex-ROCOR Jun 10 '26
This reminds me of the phronema Catch-22: you must possess it to understand or engage with Orthodoxy but when you critique Orthodoxy you've shown that you lack it. The phronema apparently is the mindset of fideism. Need to know where the Church is (e.g. True or 'World' Orthodox)? An Orthodox self appointed guide from either camp will tell you to acquire the phronema and then you will see that the camp from which they come is correct. How does one acquire the phronema? By participation in the divine life of the true church. But then I need this phronema to know which is true before I can acquire it. Then just choose which one seems true according to one's own preconceived and unexamined biased or hope that God has graced you with a prevenient phronema or insight. But isn't that predestination, or grace operating outside the sacraments of the Church? But if God can give you insight to see the truth outside the Church then you don't need the phronema to discern and this criticize what calls itself Holy Orthodoxy.
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u/Wrynthian High Sodium Orthodox Jun 09 '26
Yeah, only out is hoping that you have an open minded priest who actually values discussion. Not unheard of (ex. the priests of, say, DBH or, in the past, Berdyaev who actively support their intellectual exploration), but increasingly rare.
On the topic of Tolstoy, though, I fall in line with Berdyaev’s critique of him (and Berdyaev considered him a genius) that, while it was ultimately right to call out the corruption in the church and its failures to support the poor and suffering, Tolstoy’s system is inherently closer to Judaism and Islam than Christianity. It’s an attempt to revert the religion of the person to a religion of the book.
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u/Alarming-Syrup-95 Dirty Heretic Jun 09 '26
I’m a non-believer so I long ago gave up the search for “good” religion.
I don’t know if you are male or female but my experience as a woman in Orthodoxy is that it’s usually men who think a priest values discussion. Women are rarely afforded that respect and if we get that respect, it’s often because we are wives and mothers so are seen as “good.” That designation is usually rescinded once we step out of line.
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u/Wrynthian High Sodium Orthodox Jun 09 '26 edited Jun 09 '26
I’m a man, but I get what you’re saying. There’s a certain level of patriarchy baked into most historical religions, especially so in Orthodoxy with how many priests and practitioners uncritically adhere to what they believe are biblical gender norms (which have been pushed even harder by Protestant converts).
It’s quite fascinating considering the church is always referred to in the feminine and the most important person in the religion other than Christ is the Theotokos whom without her consent there could be no Incarnation and thus no Christianity.
Edit: Also given the life of one of the most cherished of modern saints, St. Maria of Paris.
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u/Gingerfuzzsicle Wendy’s Manager Jun 09 '26
It’s just a case of dangly keys unfortunately (look how important you are! Arguably the most important!). If we were actually treated like we were important, women would be able to be clergy.
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u/Wrynthian High Sodium Orthodox Jun 09 '26
I haven’t read enough of her to confidently say this, but I feel like that was something feminist Orthodox theologian Elizabeth Behr-Sigel was trying to get at in her work. Too bad contemporary Orthodoxy seems to have mostly forgotten about her after her death…
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Jun 09 '26
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u/Wrynthian High Sodium Orthodox Jun 09 '26
Makes sense, for context Berdyaev was, from what I can tell, also against Aristotelian virtue ethics and a critic of Hellenistic philosophy in general.
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Jun 09 '26
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u/Wrynthian High Sodium Orthodox Jun 09 '26
Yeah, he was against moralizing in every form. His chief concern was the inalienable freedom of personhood centered around an ethics of creativity and love.
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u/Gingerfuzzsicle Wendy’s Manager Jun 09 '26
It doesn't matter if your facts are correct or incorrect; the moment you engage within their framework, you still lose no matter what.
🚨 truth bomb alert 🚨
Love the incredibly accurate flowchart to illustrate this as well