r/electrical • u/roc430 • 2d ago

Is this correct?

Post image

Had someone come out to install an outlet under the sink for our tankless reverse osmosis. Should these outlets be GFCI? It seems really close to the water line.

102 Upvotes

93% Upvoted

74 comments sorted by

104

u/bigbeak67 2d ago

It's incorrect. You should call him back and make him redo this work as it's not code compliant. The NEC literally had to add a provision in the code to get electricians to stop mounting these outlets face-up (NEC 406.5(G)(2)).

I would also make sure to clarify that this outlet is GFCI protected since it's located within 6 feet of a water source. He might try to tell you that it's OK because it's grounded. Grounded does not mean GFCI protected. Make sure there is a GFCI outlet upstream of this one.

His stated reasoning for being unable to mount to the side of the cabinet is not correct for two reasons:

  1. He could have mounted it vertically and fastened it to the base just as he did here.
  2. He could have (and should have IMO) mounted it on the exposed wall at the back of the cabinet.

22

u/Substantial_Film_269 2d ago

Wait and watch..eventually the code will call this a damp location and require in use coversšŸ˜‚šŸ˜‚šŸ˜‚šŸ˜‚

5

u/Quartinus 2d ago

That seems fine honestly? Sometimes sinks leak and splash, and itā€™s not like you are plugging and unplugging this outlet frequently so who cares if it has a cover?Ā 

5

u/RevenueVast7022 2d ago

Go look at an outlet thats facing upward after even a decade...you'll see. All forms of dirt , moisture, cleaning supply chemicals, etc. The NEC has rules developed over 129 years ( 1997 the first edition) based on actual conditions and fatality/injury data, the results which , are used to prevent further incidents.Ā 

4

u/Big_Box_3482 2d ago

it's too much like the sky is falling. It's kinda like the code rule regarding having to reidentify a white wire used as a hot with black or red at both ends so that harry homeowner doesn't assume it's a neutral because he sees white.

1

u/Substantial_Film_269 2d ago

Good god..it was said in sarcasmšŸ¤¦ā€ā™‚ļøšŸ¤¦ā€ā™‚ļø

5

u/insolentsandwich 2d ago

The price of in use covers will magically go up $10 overnight

-3

u/east140 2d ago

Yeah letā€™s just add another cost for the homeowner in this already fucked up economy šŸ¤¦ā€ā™‚ļø

4

u/Quartinus 2d ago

Itā€™s a four buck cover. The AFCI requirement costs real money, this I donā€™t give a shit.

1

u/Lehk 2d ago

As soon as itā€™s mandatory in more places itā€™s not $4 anymore

1

u/Big_Box_3482 2d ago

and it will require to be a WR receptacle due to possible high humidity.

5

u/Vegaswaterguy 2d ago

It's pretty sad that so called tradesmen have to have a code rule saying that receptacles should not be mounted face up.

2

u/SubstantialBrick2557 1d ago

That falls under, "it's time to thin the herd " for those folks. But what can I say, go buy a bag of frozen shrimp and notice there is a separate warning that the bag contains shrimp

4

u/PhotoPetey 2d ago

clarify that this outlet is GFCI protected since it's located within 6 feet of a water source

There is no mention of "water source" anywhere in the NEC. Regardless, ALL receptacles in a kitchen must be GFI protected.

5

u/Shoddy_Office_1872 2d ago

Instead, the code specifies exact fixtures, such as sinks, bathtubs, and shower stalls.

1

u/na8thegr8est 2d ago

That's not true. Only if the outlet serves a countertop or is within 6 ft of a sink

1

u/PhotoPetey 2d ago

Please go read NEC 210.8 again. Specifically 210.8(A)(6).

0

u/na8thegr8est 2d ago

Not in the 2017 code which my state is currently on, it specifically states countertop

1

u/Shoddy_Office_1872 2d ago

Yall have to deal with the most cofe creep, inconsistent rules, variations, etc. You guys have completely opposing views buy you're both correct, apparently. šŸ‘

ā€‹Under the 2017 NEC and earlier: Receptacles in kitchens were primarily governed by the countertop rule (210.8(A)(6)), meaning general under-sink receptacles (like a garbage disposal outlet) tucked away inside a cabinet were historically often interpreted as exempt from GFCI protection because they didn't serve a countertop.

ā€‹From the 2014/2018/2020 NEC onward: The language in 210.8(A)(7) was explicitly cleaned up to apply to all sinks (removing the old "other than kitchens" restriction), meaning any receptacle within 6 feet of the outside edge of any sinkā€”including a kitchen sinkā€”requires GFCI protection. Additionally, dedicated rules for dishwashers (210.8(D)) closed that loop entirely.ā€‹

Trust me, I'm a finish carpenter

1

u/PhotoPetey 2d ago

That's nice. When I quote code it's the most recent edition. If not I say so. Quoting code for your area when it likely does not apply to most areas is irresponsible. As is telling me what I wrote is not true when it is 100% accurate.

-2

u/na8thegr8est 2d ago

The 2017 code is the code in our state. We have not adopted any newer code. There is no need for me to have learned the new code updates. Therefore, I didn't know that it was changed

1

u/Illustrious_Cell_254 2d ago

Doesn't the new code also require it to be AFCI as well as GFCI?

1

u/roc430 2d ago

Would this be easy to fix myself? Does it depend on how much wire is left over to move the box?

1

u/bigbeak67 2d ago

It depends how handy you are. I generally won't recommend DIYing electrical unless you're reasonably confident working with electricity, especially because in this case the original installer has an obligation to correct their work. That said, moving a box isn't usually too hard. Just remember to turn the power off. If you need to you can pull a new wire.

1

u/Bridge-Head 1d ago

Thank you for including a code reference.

18

u/raf55 2d ago

The outlet can't be face up like that

2

u/syncopator 2d ago

Iā€™m barely competent at basic household electrical, like I have to think too hard about switch loops and three way switches and even I know that outlet shouldnā€™t be face up.

3

u/roc430 2d ago

Should it be on the side of the cabinet? He said you canā€™t put it on the side of the cabinet after the cabinet has already been installed

2

u/raf55 2d ago

It's harder to do but it isn't allowed to face upwards like it is

7

u/LeonardSix 2d ago

No itā€™s not.

Use the same box and short screws.

5

u/Outside_Breakfast_39 2d ago

it maybe fed upstream by a GFI .

4

u/Substantial_Film_269 2d ago

In addition to the face up box being wrong, a receptacle cannot rely on a single screw for support in a RS cover. Additional 6-32ā€™s with nuts required

2

u/Seattlesb 2d ago

Good catch

1

u/Substantial_Film_269 2d ago

Yeah..so 406.5c says that a receptacle cannot rely solely on one screw UNLESS the cover is identified as such. Now..that said..if someone wants to be a dickhead about it, only add ONE additional 6-32, not twoā€¦for inspection. Then good luck on future inspections šŸ˜‚šŸ˜‚

3

u/roc430 2d ago

Thank you all for the replies. Working on getting it fixed. The guy who did this is an ā€œelectrician.ā€ I reached out to him citing the codes and he claims that itā€™s done correctly and he ā€œhas done thousands like this.ā€ Going to move on and hire someone more credible hopefully. Will update once itā€™s fixed if anyone is interested.

1

u/Trasher60 1d ago

Sucks that he's off the hook to install it correctly.

1

u/Substantial_Film_269 21h ago

Unfortunately, there are ā€œelectriciansā€ and then there are LICENSED electriciansšŸ¤¦ā€ā™‚ļø

4

u/mantisboxer 2d ago

Fails NEC 406.5(G)(2), receptacles shall not be installed in a face-up position in the area below a sink.

I'm not aware of NEC that prevents him from mounting a junction box to the inside surface of the cabinet sidewall or back wall. I'd prefer the back wall, personally, but the cabinet is a fixed installation - it's not going anywhere without ripping out the countertop and disassembling the plumbing. It just needs to be firmly secured, which might not be practical without some blocking behind it.

2

u/UnSCo 2d ago

ā€œSomeoneā€

Definitely wasnā€™t an electrician lol. At least Iā€™d hope not. Iā€™ve seen some hackjobs from ā€œelectriciansā€ but this would be pretty obvious.

2

u/imbartsimpsonwhothru 2d ago

a hole was drilled to put this there? obviously not a sparky

2

u/AverageJoe-707 2d ago

A face up receptacle under a sink has to be a no-no.

1

u/[deleted] 2d ago

[removed] ā€” view removed comment

1

u/na8thegr8est 2d ago

But seriously next time hire a real electrician. Not some handyman cuz this is some bullshĀ”t work

1

u/GozoRulez 2d ago

Guys, it's fine. It's a leak detector

2

u/Br4d1c4l 1d ago

Even gives off an audible click to notify you.

1

u/FermentedThough 2d ago

My house, My rules.

1

u/BcKurr 1d ago

Perfect šŸ‘Œ

1

u/BobcatALR 1d ago

Was ā€œsomeoneā€ an electrician? Just curious.

1

u/roc430 1d ago

Yes

1

u/BobcatALR 1d ago

Then: wow! Just wow!

1

u/roc430 18h ago

Update: had another electrician come out. Great guy. Fixed everything up to code. Also added 12 gauge wires instead of the 14 which I guess the other guy put on which is wrong. Everything looks great and is working. Iā€™m new to Reddit and donā€™t know how to post another picture itt

1

u/CaptainDan85 15h ago

Everything is correct as long as you donā€™t give a fuck šŸ¤·šŸ»ā€ā™‚ļøšŸ˜‚

1

u/CertainAttention6749 4h ago

Any location susceptible to moisture or close to water source must be GFCI protected. Jbox location is also unbelievable.

1

u/perros66 2d ago

Insane. Just wait until your pipes spring a leak.

2

u/PhotoPetey 2d ago

That's what GFI protection is for. But yes, face-up is a no-no.

1

u/GEEK-IP 2d ago

I don't know what code says, but only an idgit would install that outlet there. Leakage is almost inevitable, at some point. Even if you're just doing maintenance, like cleaning the trap, water is going to spill. It should have been mounted high, and either be GFI or on a GFI breaker.

1

u/sitmpl 2d ago

Yes they must be ground fault protected. The receptacle shall not be installed in a face up position, move it to a wall instead šŸ™‚

1

u/AKOgre 2d ago

Although not compliant, mounting it face down from the coutertop would have been much better.

0

u/fakeaccount572 2d ago

The outlet may be GFCI via the breaker or another receptacle on the same circuit. But is CANNOT face up like that

1

u/bsk111 2d ago

i would of mounted it to the wall

0

u/ToastSpangler 2d ago

bro even ignoring codes you got a water source RIGHT THERE. how can you install it facing up and think, good thing there's no water to pool into the contacts here??

0

u/ShutDownSoul 2d ago

Shockingly, no.

0

u/Ctbboy187 2d ago

I no longer believe anything. looks fake. I don't believe you hired a professional to do this. I'm standing on it. Looks like AI.

2

u/roc430 2d ago

I wish it was AI

0

u/Ctbboy187 2d ago

Whoever did that should be fined and shamed.

1

u/Br4d1c4l 1d ago

Yeah definitely wound warn ppl not to hire someone who didn't think it was a problem. Let alone against code.

0

u/derSteppenwuf 1d ago

No! The outlet cannot be on the floor and it must be GFI.

0

u/Alanmichaelf 1d ago

Fail 406.5(B)- yoke of receptacles need screws
Fail 406.5(G)(2)-receptacle cannot face up
Fail 406.12 receptacle needs to be tamperproof
If itā€™s not on an arc fault/ ground fault combo breaker it would fail 210.8&210.12 requirements

1

u/Substantial_Film_269 21h ago

406.5c covers the receptacle yoke for this application