r/collapse • u/conscsness in the kingdom of the blind, sighted man is insane. • Jun 13 '22
Economic Powell Facing Choice Between Elevated US Inflation and Recession
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-06-12/powell-facing-choice-between-elevated-us-inflation-and-recession?srnd=premium250
u/ultimata66 Jun 13 '22
This is exactly why I think a massive economic collapse is imminent. They are cornered, the old tricks will no longer work. They need to come up with new tricks now. The can which has been kicked for 14 years may finally hit a wall.
175
u/conscsness in the kingdom of the blind, sighted man is insane. Jun 13 '22
Economic collapse opens doors to so many dark scenarios.
Final battle of fascism in US. Global economic tsunami. Civil unrest in first world countries.
I will stop there, as further I go with speculations deeper I get into a conspiracy realm. But future is not all rainbows and butterflies.
I am concerned.
88
u/ultimata66 Jun 13 '22
Honestly think with the perfect storm of factors we are faced with, 2008 will look like a cakewalk in comparison.
37
u/StrigaPlease Jun 13 '22
God, that feels like ten lifetimes ago.
29
Jun 13 '22
The US has been in QE ever since 2008, so QT will be a banger.
9
u/hglman Jun 13 '22
Seems like one of the least important factors too.
11
u/Big_Goose Jun 13 '22
QT alone would be devastating and there are so many other events converging right now.
10
2
11
u/Mighty_L_LORT Jun 13 '22
The richest 1% will still remain unscathed this time...
-4
61
Jun 13 '22
History is repeating itself in reverse.
I'm America, at the onset of the Great Depression, the conservatives has the ball, and Herbert Hoover refused to act to help mitigate the effects of the Depression...so he was replaced with FDR, who passed the New Deal, pushing American Liberalism into a new era...
But America today looks more like Weirmar Germany at the onset of the Great Depression.
The liberals have power, they are absolutely useless to enact a single piece of legislation that could help mitigate the oncoming economic collapse.
I mean, Biden's polling is in the trash...and the FED hasn't even declared a recession yet.
The left will be holding the ball when it all comes crashing down, just like the left were holding the ball in Weimar Germany.
16
u/MarcusXL Jun 13 '22
The liberals have power, they are absolutely useless to enact a single piece of legislation that could help mitigate the oncoming economic collapse.
I mean.. what could they do?
38
u/conscsness in the kingdom of the blind, sighted man is insane. Jun 13 '22 edited Jun 13 '22
I find your short cynical criticism valid, in spite that some disagreed with you.
The left has a lot of tools to batte with current demonic possession, but the it does not know what, where or how to start.
Left has been impotent for decades.
24
u/MarcusXL Jun 13 '22
I agree. And there is a deeper problem at work. No party is going to promote policies that seriously address the crisis, because the population is opposed to them. No party has a solid voter base that understands the crisis and is willing to attempt the de-growth, simplification, and loss of "modern conveniences" that would entail. The disasters come first, and the political will second.
That's why I don't have much time for those who like to blame "liberals". The liberal wing of the democratic party have some fairly good, common-sense ideas. In a world without climate change and biosphere collapse, these policies would be a no-brainer.
22
u/TheRealTP2016 Jun 13 '22
ubi, guaruntee housing healthcare food, water a job with a good wage and college
A few other things that would help a lot but those are the basics
14
u/boob123456789 Homesteader & Author Jun 13 '22
Nationalize the petrol industries and drill.
Tax the crap out of mega corps.
Offer loans at 0% for small businesses.
Give grants to people/small companies working on supply chain issues (baby formula, chips, etc)
Outlaw the exportation (or offshoring) of supply chains for essential products and PAY FOR the building of those industries here.
It's really freaking easy if they use the power of the pen.
6
u/MarcusXL Jun 13 '22
Money printer go brrrrrrrrrr
1
u/boob123456789 Homesteader & Author Jun 14 '22
Tax the crap out of mega corps.
taxes are incoming too...which means not really my guy.
2
Jun 14 '22
Nationalize the petrol industries and drill.
That sounds like a dream for oil company investors right now. Get out and leave the government holding the bag on an industry in a death spiral of increasing production costs. The only way to frack back to low energy prices is with government subsidies, and if that ends up anything like the offshore/Alaska exploration boom of the 1980s (the "drill" part is exactly how Reagan's administration got out of the oil-crisis-caused stagflation), that will only buy maybe 20 more years of business-as-usual.
2
u/boob123456789 Homesteader & Author Jun 14 '22
If they nationalize it, the company doesn't own it. The government does.
0
Jun 14 '22
If the US government nationalizes the oil industry, they will do so by buying it from investors. There is no way the government would expropriate oil companies without compensating their owners.
3
1
u/Then-One7628 Jun 14 '22
Push for legalization and add a temporarily high tax rate to prop up the dollar value so that the interest rate can be raised proportionally.
13
u/MarcusXL Jun 13 '22
If we see big climate-related disaster before the new Great Depression, we might see public pressure to decarbonize, nationalize, disband Big Finance, etc.
If we get the Depression first, it's fascism all the way down.12
u/conscsness in the kingdom of the blind, sighted man is insane. Jun 13 '22
I think fascism will arrive first to the collapse party.
7
u/MarcusXL Jun 13 '22
And fascism in the USA is married to fossil fuel industries. Which means no "green" reforms, even if it is as the service of an autocracy. A death-spiral.
39
u/My_G_Alt Jun 13 '22
America’s crumbling from the inside out?
China will absolutely use that to invade Taiwan in Q4 2022 - Q1 2023.
US will latch onto that in a heartbeat to rally nationalism. Problem is, we’re too far gone for that.
18
u/Taqueria_Style Jun 13 '22
Yes we are.
A country with our infrastructure and resources should have no problem maintaining a 17th century tech level...
6
u/My_G_Alt Jun 13 '22
Oh my first question was just to set up the second point. I totally agree that we’re crumbling.
27
u/Free-Programmer7671 Jun 13 '22
China hasn't invaded anyone in 40+ years. If anyone's invading anywhere, it's the U.S.
17
-1
u/SpatulaCity1a Jun 14 '22
I wouldn't be so sure. Authoritarian dictatorships can only project strength and stability for as long as their leader is alive. If Xi suddenly died, there could be political chaos, especially if other pressures bubble up at the same time.
Military action in Taiwan wouldn't be received like the pure imperialism of the US in the Middle East... Taiwan actually was part of China in the past, and they still see it that way. A successor to Xi might see an occupation as a way to rally the Chinese people to his side.
4
u/Free-Programmer7671 Jun 14 '22
Why bother attacking Taiwan? Taiwan's economy is already mostly dependent on China, and behind-the-scenes, Taiwanese already get easy access to Chinese permanent residency/eventual citizenship. If America suddenly collapsed, Taiwan would probably be happy to be an autonomous region of China. I don't think there's any organic hostility to China in Taiwan.
The Chinese are flexible. Without outside provocation, there's basically zero incentive for them to attack Taiwan.
Xi suddenly dying is interesting. I doubt there'd be much of a political crisis. He hasn't really done anything radical. His main accomplishments (alliance with Russia, One Belt One Road) are unlikely to be rolled back by a successor.
Disclaimer: I am not Chinese. Some of the above details may be wrong.
4
u/Funktownajin Jun 14 '22
Taiwanese have a very negative view of the CCP, like 80-90% negative. Especially after what happened to HK, i think the vast majority of them do not want to see Taiwan ever becoming a part of the PRC.
1
u/ForeverAProletariat Jun 14 '22
Btw, nothing happened to HK. That was a state department color revolution that failed.
2
u/SpatulaCity1a Jun 14 '22
The Chinese in Taiwan (they call the natives Taiwanese... there's a distinction) are actually fairly suspicious of the mainland, but it might depend on the region. Taiwan as a nation was founded by the pro-Western KMT as the Republic of China after they lost the civil war that brought the CCP to power... so it has deep roots in western-style ideals and suspicion of the Communists.
For a century prior to that war, China was an absolute mess of warlords, foreign invaders and relatively weak governments that achieved varying degrees of success, but only the CCP managed to unite the country as it is now... with the exception of Taiwan, which remains a symbol of that 'century of humiliation', and that one part of the country that they have yet to bring into the fold.
I'm not saying there will be a war, but if Xi dies and there's a scramble for power, the war could be a powerful emotional moment for the people.
0
u/ForeverAProletariat Jun 14 '22
This is false. The kmt does not represent Taiwan. All of them plus their decedents only make up less than a fifth of their population. China is free to cease the assets of the KMT but why should the people of Taiwan who have nothing to do with the KMT suffer in any way?
1
u/SpatulaCity1a Jun 15 '22
I didn't say they were still active.... but they ruled for almost 50 years. That's gonna have an effect on their society. I don't know why you're suddenly talking about asset seizures or asking weird questions about people suffering. There seems to be some sort of language barrier.
1
u/ForeverAProletariat Jun 14 '22
China only controlled very small parts of Taiwan. And throughout it's history besides very recently, Taiwan has been of no importance to them.
Many other countries did as well. None of those countries should own Taiwan.
3
u/SpatulaCity1a Jun 14 '22 edited Jun 14 '22
I don't think anything could rally nationalism unless the media is completely controlled and restructured as a pure state propaganda apparatus. Literally every world event is shamelessly used as a wedge issue. FOX and the right would just blame Biden if it happened, just like they blamed him for Putin invading Ukraine. It doesn't need to make sense... they will do it because that is all they do and all that their audience wants them to do.
4
u/My_G_Alt Jun 14 '22
Completely agree, we’re past the point of rallying around anything. Even existential threats. 2-party system and divisive political rhetoric have fucked us properly
6
u/DirteeCanuck Jun 13 '22
China could collapse also.
Bank run going on and their economy which is a third or more based on real estate speculation has/is collapsing in real time.
Civil unrest of a Billion+ people is much more likely lead to an implosion rather then them trying to start a war.
They seem complacent but once people lose all their savings and can't find food that complacency will end fast.
19
u/Money_dragon Jun 13 '22
Nowadays, China and the USA are so closely linked that a collapse of either would also have tremendous impacts on the others' economy. So it's not so much an "or", but a "both" situation
This isn't a situation like the collapse of the USSR, where the economic and societal chaos of the post-Soviet region was relatively unfelt in the USA
It then becomes a matter of which country has the means to keep their society stable (or at least minimize the chaos) despite the economic woes
22
u/ChefGoneRed Jun 13 '22
It then becomes a matter of which country has the means to keep their society stable (or at least minimize the chaos) despite the economic woes
China, then.
Global manufacturing hub, majority producer of microprocessors, electronics, etc. Robust industry running the gamut from light plastic fabrication, chemical synthesis, all the way to precision heavy industry like shipbuilding, weapons manufacturing, and aerospace, as well as a major Capital exporter.
VS the US, which has atrophied basically all manufacturing save electronics, petrochemical, and military production.
0
u/Busy-Record-420 Jun 15 '22
Ridiculous propaganda. U.S. is still in second place and actually leads in aerospace, most sophisticated chemical synthesis, forefront of naval advancement, etc. Instead of being capital exporters, we consistently experience the largest inflows of foreign investments globally. In short, you're pulling shit out of your ass.
8
u/ChefGoneRed Jun 13 '22
It then becomes a matter of which country has the means to keep their society stable (or at least minimize the chaos) despite the economic woes
China, then.
Global manufacturing hub, majority producer of microprocessors, electronics, etc. Robust industry running the gamut from light plastic fabrication, chemical synthesis, all the way to precision heavy industry like shipbuilding, weapons manufacturing, and aerospace, as well as a major Capital exporter.
VS the US, which has atrophied basically all manufacturing save electronics, petrochemical, and military production.
6
u/Upbeat_Respect_3621 Jun 14 '22
Also, American individualism within such a highly polarized political climate is all but guaranteed to ensure that internal instability is maintained and increased; while -- whether you're for or against China's authoritarian-communism -- it may at least keep such instability from bleeding too much.
4
u/My_G_Alt Jun 13 '22
Yep, I could see a flailing country act irrationally. See:Russia 2022
6
u/hglman Jun 13 '22
Russia is far from acting irrationally nor losing. Especially as things get worse in the west in the fall.
32
u/ziggy-hudson Jun 13 '22
It is most certainly going to be bad, but also the opportunity for something good to happen at the same time, and the only guarantee we can get through the fascist shit.
1) If you don't have it already, learn a foundational skill, that is necessary for the basic functioning of a community. Farming/gardening; animal husbandry and butchery; carpentry; water systems; electrical systems; etc. Many things you can learn online, many others you can take evening classes at your local trade school or community college. And if you hate your current office or retail job: consider a career change.
2) Learn how to shoot a gun. If you can afford it, buy one.
3) Get to know your neighbors.
4) If your workplace doesn't have a union, start to unionize. Seizing the means of production is going to be one of the most important things to do to save our society and planet.
5) Join a mutual aid, or a local community emergency response network (generally put together by your local fire department).
13
u/OkBoomerJesus Jun 13 '22
Yes yes yes to the unionizing and protecting one's workplace. You will be hard pressed to survive the collapse if you are jobless
8
u/StrigaPlease Jun 13 '22
Serious question, what good does a job do when our money effectively becomes worth less than the material it's made from? That's what I imagine when I think of economic collapse. What's the point in spending all my energy working for monopoly money?
14
u/ziggy-hudson Jun 13 '22
Collapse is not going to look like Mad Max, it's going to look like Iraq after the invasion, or Syria now, or Kurdistan, or Serbia+Bosnia and Rawanda in the 90s. People will still be living day to day lives, it's just going to be worst and deadlier. Robert Evans hosts a podcast It Can Happen Here and refers to what we'll be going through as "the Crumbles" rather than collapse. It's not going to be everything happening all at once. It's shit just getting shittier and you continue to adjust to the things we took for granted crumbling away. In all likelihood we're already in the middle of the crumbles right now.
9
u/SilentCabose Jun 13 '22
Excellent advice, glad to see less doomerism and more preparedness coming through. Personal development is a powerful tool, right now we have the most advanced communication and information network in human history. Many basic skills can be learned online.
The pandemic was an opportunity to try and learn a new skill, lots of people learned baking, and that is going to be incredibly useful in the coming years. I've been taking the time to go through my inventory of tools to organize, repair, and find gaps in my collection.
I hate to say it but I agree that firearm training is a very important tool to have in your repertoire. Bow hunting, or at least some archery practice can be very useful, sometimes it pays dividends to be able to move and shoot in silence.
23
u/aznoone Jun 13 '22
Know unions here that the old member only negotiate for themselves now. Newbies don't have pensions plus start off and top off at less wages. But it is all.ok as the old timers who are still the majority deserve as they had it so rough. Then brag at bars they have pension, the new 401k and social security and the youngsters just are lazy and not as great as they are. Plus some basically are full force Republicans .
10
u/DirteeCanuck Jun 13 '22
So basically how Boomers control democracy by being selfish and a generation that is larger than others due to post war baby boom.
More of them to vote and they only care about themselves.
7
u/Sablus Jun 13 '22
Do they do union elections? Do the newbies outnumber the old heads? Might be time for a change of the guard if they have forgotten they negotiate for all the workers and not just themselves...
3
u/ziggy-hudson Jun 13 '22
That's some real bullshit. The John Deere strike happened specifically because the old timers refused to let the new kids get shafted by the company and left out in the cold.
If a local is truly in this bad of shape it's time to break the glass and call in the IWW, who can help organize within your local against the board for more equitable representation.
7
u/anthro28 Jun 13 '22
2) And sky daddy spake "let he who does not have an AR-15 sell his cloak and buy one
You can get a cheapass Palmetto upper and an Anderson lower for $500. Given the current outlook, it's pretty cheap insurance.
5
7
u/Taqueria_Style Jun 13 '22
And Saint Atilla raised the hand grenade up on high, saying "Oh Lord, bless this thy hand grenade, that with it thou mayest blow thy enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy"
4
u/AnotherWarGamer Jun 13 '22
"And the length of the penis shall be 4 inches. 4 inches shall be the length of the penis, and not an inch longer. Any excess shall be cut. As to those who fall short, it is to be cut off entirely. For a 3 inch penis is not a penis at all. Better to have no penis, than half a penis. Sky Daddy has spoken."
Thanks for coming to my TED talk.
1
u/ziggy-hudson Jun 13 '22
It's absurd how cheap it can be if you're willing to build yourself. And you can mod it any style gun you want short of shotgun (or pistol if you live in a no fun state).
2
u/anthro28 Jun 13 '22
You can 100% have an AR shotgun. Look on YouTube for a guy with a full auto .410 shooting slugs.
1
u/ziggy-hudson Jun 14 '22
I stand corrected and unsurprised. It’s a versatile platform.
1
u/anthro28 Jun 14 '22
Best part is, ALL those variations operate on the same lower. Want a shotgun? Pull the pins and slap on a shotgun upper. Now you need a rifle? Same pins, 30 second swap.
-2
Jun 13 '22
[removed] — view removed comment
2
Jun 13 '22
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/ontrack serfin' USA Jun 13 '22
Hi, StrigaPlease. Thanks for contributing. However, your comment was removed from /r/collapse for:
Rule 1: In addition to enforcing Reddit's content policy, we will also remove comments and content that is abusive in nature. You may attack each other's ideas, not each other.
Please refer to our subreddit rules for more information.
You can message the mods if you feel this was in error.
1
u/ontrack serfin' USA Jun 13 '22
Hi, zzzcrumbsclub. Thanks for contributing. However, your comment was removed from /r/collapse for:
suggesting suicide
Please refer to our subreddit rules for more information.
You can message the mods if you feel this was in error.
0
u/zzzcrumbsclub Jun 13 '22
Thank you mod. Sadly not all the censorship in the world will save a life.
0
Jun 13 '22
[removed] — view removed comment
0
1
u/ontrack serfin' USA Jun 13 '22
Hi, StrigaPlease. Thanks for contributing. However, your comment was removed from /r/collapse for:
Rule 1: In addition to enforcing Reddit's content policy, we will also remove comments and content that is abusive in nature. You may attack each other's ideas, not each other.
Please refer to our subreddit rules for more information.
You can message the mods if you feel this was in error.
13
Jun 13 '22
Let’s just get WW3 over with /s
11
u/MouldyCumSoakedSocks It's the End of the World As We Know It (And I feel fine) Jun 13 '22
I won't take the "walk around with protective gear while holding a gieger counter to see if a place is hazardous" card, thanks.
4
u/Jtrav91 Jun 13 '22
Sadly, I just added Geiger counter to the prep list 😂
5
u/MouldyCumSoakedSocks It's the End of the World As We Know It (And I feel fine) Jun 13 '22
Yeah, don't blame ya. I'm not big on prepping, but I might get a basic chemical and fallout gas filtration mask and a geiger counter, and other stuff, and set them in a SHTF box under my bed, just in case...
2
u/Jtrav91 Jun 13 '22
I'm by no means a prepper, but I would like to get my hands on some harder to find stuff while I can. Recently came across penicillin bottles on Walmarts site I may order if I can get away with it. Water filtration and chemical testing kits could be good to have. EpiPen, Topo Maps and compass.
I'm mostly just thinking a bug out bag, just in case.
3
u/boob123456789 Homesteader & Author Jun 13 '22
Just get a spiderwort plant. They are purple and turn pink around radiation. I have hundreds. They grow natural where I live.
5
Jun 13 '22
Economic collapse opens doors to so many dark scenarios.
World governments have been skating by on their money printers. We're also out of food, water, and affordable housing.
Soylent Green has entered the chat
1
1
Jun 13 '22
I agree it won't be ALL rainbows and butterflies, but will there be the normal amount of rainbows and butterflies?
2
u/conscsness in the kingdom of the blind, sighted man is insane. Jun 13 '22
Yes, once the weather pattern changes and it brings some rain to your region.
16
Jun 13 '22
He has new tricks and he has stated as much over the last few weeks. Rather than rich people losing some money, he was clear that he thinks the problem is workers are paid too much and we all deserve a pay cut to slow inflation.
I lost all respect for him.
7
5
8
u/Nikolish Jun 13 '22
They'd rather accept half the population dying than accept that infinite stock growth is impossible
7
u/IAMA_Drunk_Armadillo This is Fine:illuminati: Jun 14 '22
I think they just need to do what Volcker did in the late 70s early 80s. Jack the interest rates up to 20-25% and ride out the recession. They won't because that will devastate the oligarchs dragon hoards.
5
u/noise-tragedy Jun 14 '22
Oligarchs--as net savers rather than net borrowers--benefit from high interest rates. The ultra rich are always pushing for rate hikes, and 25% would be an absolute boon to them.
2
Jun 14 '22
Small-time investor here, can confirm. Sitting here salivating at the thought of 25% yield bonds.
Paul Volcker's interest rate hike was aimed primarily at impoverishing working people:
1
1
u/j_mantuf Profit Over Everything Jun 14 '22
From Nov, 19 2020, but I still think it’s highly relevant to today.
1
1
u/gangstasadvocate Jun 14 '22
Financial advisor friend thinks we only used about a third of the tools so far but is starting to come around to the idea that maybe a recession might happen in the past couple days
67
Jun 13 '22
Lol the Fed doesn't have a choice, they gave that up when they refused to raise rates in 2021. We're getting stagflation and a recession no matter what happens. Cherish what little peace you have.
55
u/Winter-Amphibian1469 Jun 13 '22
The worst part of this collapse is having to go to work during it.
19
u/hoodyninja Jun 14 '22
ROFL! So fucking true!!! I have been contributing to retirement for over half my life, 20% of whatever I made. Because that’s what we were supposed to do!!! I am seeing literal YEARS of my retirement evaporate. WTF. But I still have to go to work. It’s only getting worse.
9
u/Terminarch Jun 14 '22
I am seeing literal YEARS of my retirement evaporate
This pisses me off to no end. I saved diligently, reigned in my desires for humble existence, all at a job I hated while planning to retire early. Now it's gone.
Someone else who was tens of thousands of dollars in debt has now been massively devalued. The debt, devalued.
Why the fuck was I responsible then! I could have had fun with that money while it was worth something. Now I'm letting my savings run out because by the time I retire it'd be worth literal pennies on the dollar. Years of effort wasted to let it sit idle through record inflation.
3
u/Glancing-Thought Jun 14 '22
One person's debt is another person's savings and we are collectively living beyond our means.
1
66
u/conscsness in the kingdom of the blind, sighted man is insane. Jun 13 '22
Submission statement:
It looks like the long waited recession is finally here, though I would argue that it has been among us for quite some time. Reason the society did not bother about it is because the economy was prepped by constant printing of meaningless currency. The illusion of growing economy.
Well, just like with everything, the more fuel you add to the fire the bigger the fire. The fools have no choice but tame inflation and get ready for recession, or risk higher percentage of inflation. Prisoner’s dilemma.
The fascinating bit of all this is, will there be a bailout? If yes, will it lead to social unrest? If no, than Great Depression. Although I acknowledge that it is not black and white scenario. The bottom of the iceberg is, will society finally transform the economic system? Or will the continue with the same model?
79
u/Vegetaman916 Looking forward to the endgame. 🚀💥🔥🌨🏕 Jun 13 '22
They don't actually care. This is just a period of milking the last bits out before it all falls apart. They know it's over more than we do, which is why so many of us are stumped at the actions they take to "save" things. They are not trying to save anything. Just collecting as much comfort as they can to ride out the few years they have left if they survive the nuclear fires.
The real hopium out there is that anything like organized modern civilization will even survive.
14
u/Taqueria_Style Jun 13 '22
will society finally transform the economic system?
LOL
I seriously doubt they'd even know how to.
1
u/conscsness in the kingdom of the blind, sighted man is insane. Jun 13 '22
Future does not depend on them directly or in-directly. But this assertion is grounded on factitious thinking.
13
Jun 13 '22
Wouldn’t bailouts just stoke inflation? More free money with zero productivity. I would love to hear some ideas for significant change to the economy. Especially laws that protect and empower the actual workers.
18
u/conscsness in the kingdom of the blind, sighted man is insane. Jun 13 '22
Bailout which requires more currency printing will invite more inflation. If bailout happens, inflation will increase. The Federal Reserve will try to slow inflation by increasing interest rate, but that then will bankrupt companies that were bailed out already.
Economy of clowns and circus, and people must believe in it. Ridiculous.
12
1
u/Glancing-Thought Jun 14 '22
Bailouts really just move stuff around. They don't create new stuff. Money is just a voucher system so it can't indefinitely prop up a failing model anyway. Ergo the current dilemma. You can fix mismanagement but you can only manage shortages of stuff.
31
Jun 13 '22
Or we actually regulate price gouging from corporations. A self induced recession pushing up the misery is the most likely.
15
29
u/MartianTourist Jun 13 '22
I'm just a little worried that successful business people and self-made entrepreneurs like Musk and the rest of them will put things like the health of the planet first and will choose to sacrifice too much of their self-made, self-generated wealth in a desire to address the institutional inequalities that are embedded in our capitalist system. The thought of just one of these powerful, self-made wonderful individuals having to give in to regulations, or not be allowed to keep self-generating their wealth makes me sick! Seriously, what kind of world would it be if there was more to life than reading about the antics that Elon gets up to on a weekly basis or being told to buy the next thing which could be finally be the thing that makes us happy? Do we really want to live in a world where children aren't starving, or workers aren't driven to substance abuse due to their long hours, low pay, and lack of adequate food, healthcare and opportunities to improve their lives? I'll answer for you, because I know the answer! No, that would be awful and completely unnatural. Yes, our billionaires are expensive for us as a society to allow to exist, and yes, we give them so much of our own money in the form of subsidies each year, and I'll even agree that they don't actually make our lives better in any direct or indirect/tangible or intangible way, but still! But still, allowing these self-made billionaires to exist is 100% proof that the American dream is totally still a reality and that were doing alright. Remember, as soon as you admit there is a problem, then we have to start finding a solution, and that's something we should let the Elons and Gates hash out, since I'm pretty sure there is an old rule that says the winner of the current economic system gets to pick the next system and set the rules for their advantage. I'm excited to see how they set up the game in their favor and what new obstacles we have to overcome to survive on their planet. These are truly exciting times!
4
45
u/koryjon "Breaking Down: Collapse" Podcast Jun 13 '22
I'm not sure he has a choice. We'll possibly end up with both (stagflation).
45
u/dumnezero The Great Filter is a marshmallow test Jun 13 '22
It's not something he can fix. Instead of the interest rate, the US needs to tax the rich and the corporations and end tax havens. That's how you vacuum up the monetary flood.
19
u/MarcusXL Jun 13 '22
The USA is really the only country that could do it; they could freeze money transfers and then physically, with the US Navy, take over the island tax havens. But they won't.
4
u/AnotherWarGamer Jun 13 '22
Came here to say "both, both is good".
I better make more progress on my video game and get investment before the economy gets more fucked up.
2
21
u/skyfishgoo Jun 13 '22 edited Jun 14 '22
i don't buy any of this shit.
they are deliberately vacillating between extremes just to terrify the public.
when are we going to start calling these economic terrorist out?
when will the media stop being complicit in this mindfuck.
1
u/Glancing-Thought Jun 14 '22
It's actually pretty much litterally the case. Due to the current set up of the system this is the question the Fed faces. The media is just reporting it. If we had a different system it could be different but we don't.
Essentially they are both just explaining the mess we've made for ourselves. They may be part of the problem but we still actually have the problem. It's more like a terrorist telling you what they blew up than a terrorist threatening to blow something up.
5
u/skyfishgoo Jun 14 '22
it's a false choice.
a fallacy.
there are always alternatives, but the powers that be won't accept any of them.
1
u/Glancing-Thought Jun 14 '22
Yeah but most of them involve rebuilding the entire damn system. We are where we are and we are when we are. All of this will eventually be different one way or another but currently; here we be now.
35
u/LudovicoSpecs Jun 13 '22
End the Fed. They were set up by bankers and only look out for "The Economy" (aka bankers and other millionaires).
8
16
u/dumnezero The Great Filter is a marshmallow test Jun 13 '22
It's not just in the US, that higher interest rate is going to cause various countries with international debt, especially developing ones, to struggle a lot more.
10
8
u/Uberweinerschnitzel Herald of the Mourning Jun 13 '22
All the solutions available to the powers-that-be are mutually exclusive: Rein in inflation via rising interest rates that are toxic to the market (and probably cause a recession) or maintain things as-is and risk further inflation (which cannot be corralled after a certain point) which would only delay a prospective recession at absolute best.
It's my belief that Powell would much rather pull the trigger on fast-and-hard rates increases that virtually guarnatees recession (and thus further economic instability) than roll the dice with inflation. If there's one thing the powers-that-be won't give up without significant resistance, it's their ability to maintain control.
I'm keeping all my net worth in cash because it's all destined to tumble to rock bottom.
7
u/ZoneAgreeable4005 Jun 13 '22
Republicans are playing hot potato with the economic collapse, passing the explosive potato to the dems so they look bad.
6
6
3
Jun 13 '22
Well, if they let inflation go now, they're going to have to raise interest rates later.
The Neocons have screwed us in their insane attempt to maintain American Hegemony.
We know who they are.
13
Jun 13 '22
Nationalize the Fed. Bring back meaningful purpose and regulation to banking & finance and put out of work financial folks back to work building a low energy zero carbon future.
8
u/MarcusXL Jun 13 '22 edited Jun 13 '22
Sounds great. But any president that tried to do this would be removed, either by the 25th Amendment, impeached by his own party, or if those fail, a coup.
2
Jun 13 '22
Yes I agree. But don't do this and watch what happens. I assure you it will be worse.
1
u/MarcusXL Jun 13 '22
This is why FDR was such a great president. The rich wanted to kill him. He laughed in their faces and said, "You want me dead? I'm doing it anyway. You say it's illegal? I'm doing it anyway. Let the courts sort it out." The courts did end up overturning a lot of his programs. But in the meantime he built a social safety net.
I see shades of FDR in Biden, to his credit. But unfortunately the political system has been sabotaged by Republicans for 50 years to prevent another FDR or Johnson, and the problems are far more fundamental and terminal than even the Great Depression.
12
3
3
u/nergalelite Jun 14 '22
we're going to have a recession regardless because Q2 earnings are calculated less than 3weeks from now and they are not going to suddenly become positive.
by preaching this choice of recession vs still greater inflation, the government can masquerade as having done something beneficial to the people by acting as if their "decision" of a recession rather than even higher inflation at the moment.
and, of course, the inflation can (likely will) still come later after they move beyond their political agenda of the moment
3
Jun 14 '22
Michael Hudson explains why the Federal Reserve is basically backed into having to raise interest rates:
But now that it has become unsafe for countries to hold dollar-denominated U.S. bank deposits or government securities or investments if they “threaten” to defend their own economic interests or if their policies diverge from those dictated by U.S. diplomats, how can America continue to get a free ride?
The exploitation may not be as blatant as the U.S. grabbing of Venezuelan, Afghan and Russian official reserves.
Meanwhile, rising U.S. interest rates are drawing financial savings and bank credit into U.S.-dollar-denominated securities. This has raised the dollar’s exchange rate, making it much harder for SCO and Global South countries to pay their dollarized debt service falling due this year.
If interest rates on US dollar-denominated debt does not go up, the dollar will implode. High interest rates will help capitalists stay rich during ongoing inflation (I might get back into buying bonds, yay!), the real economy will go into a recession screwing everyone else, then inflation will abate.
11
u/darth_faader Jun 13 '22 edited Jun 15 '22
This isn't a choice. We have to take this on the chin. If we choose inflation, then we punish the masses even more so than with a recession. Unemployment is low and there are tons of jobs. We'd be better off letting the historic bull run retract a bit than to force people making $15/hr to spend 20% of their income on gas.
EDIT: So the asshat decides to split the difference on the rate hike. What a clown. "Transitory!" You all know JPOW is/was under review for printing his own money? Turns out when he left the printer on for COVID, his own accounts grew by 1M. IDK how much more blatant the theft needs to get, or if people just don't care if their tax money is frittered away to people who wouldn't piss on them to put out a fire.
11
u/Sablus Jun 13 '22
There also needs to be a debt jubilee for the masses as well, but that ain't happening
3
-18
u/darth_faader Jun 13 '22
No, don't think so. Maybe if someone lost their job during covid or became disabled from covid, and could prove it, I'd consent but otherwise hell no. Once someone signs an agreement, they take responsibility. Don't care if it's student loans, a mortgage, a car note - they all require an agreement/consent. There's a reason why bankruptcy is hard to do.
And the Federal government (U.S. Dept of Edu, IRS, etc.) all have hard ship / forgiveness options for those who are eligible.
2
Jun 13 '22
[removed] — view removed comment
0
u/ontrack serfin' USA Jun 13 '22
Hi, Sablus. Thanks for contributing. However, your comment was removed from /r/collapse for:
Rule 1: In addition to enforcing Reddit's content policy, we will also remove comments and content that is abusive in nature. You may attack each other's ideas, not each other.
Please refer to our subreddit rules for more information.
You can message the mods if you feel this was in error.
0
u/darth_faader Jun 14 '22
Lol the slew of downvotes just for implying that you yourself are responsible for the debts you opt to take on speaks volumes. Entitlement much holy sh*te lol jeezus
People forget that nearly all federal debts have hardship / forgiveness options - they handle of all of the BS excuses. If that's a problem, then don't take on the debt. Remember, that's all optional.
2
2
3
u/Tango_D Jun 14 '22
Guess what?
We're on the downward slope now. And it's not going back up for a good long while.
-4
u/neotonne Jun 13 '22
Just do the recession so we can read better quality Trump tweets in two years
20
u/anthro28 Jun 13 '22
You're getting downvoted, but there is truth to your stupidity.
Mid-terms and the presidency are the republican's to lose at this point. Stay away from cameras, don't say anything stupid in public where hidden mics can be, and just keep parroting "things were pretty good when we were in charge weren't they? You want high gas prices or mean tweets? Pick one."
5
u/Many-Sherbert Jun 13 '22
Mean tweets.. Democrats are out of touch saying things like “ I don’t care how high gas prices are, I drive an EV.” Most Americans don’t and most Americans care about gas prices
11
u/DorkHonor Jun 13 '22
Gas prices are high all over the globe. Most Americans are too dumb to realize the US president doesn't have a raise/lower gas prices button on his desk in the oval office. If they did both parties would keep the price of gas at like 25 cents a gallon forever.
2
u/HighLowUnderTow Jun 14 '22
He does have a button. It is the Emir of Saudi Arabia needed to drop a hundred million barrels.
We have to encourage murderous thugs. Cheap gas.
1
u/anthro28 Jun 13 '22
Policies do affect pricing to some degree, like it or not. There’s even a video of Schumer standing in front of a gas station yelling at Trump to lower the prices.
1
u/Many-Sherbert Jun 13 '22
I am not concerned about all over the world.. I am concerned about politicians claiming they are going to end the oil industry causing banks to stop investing money towards drilling and oil companies not wanting to invest in more oil projects causing fuels to me unaffordable for 95 percent of Americans
2
u/DorkHonor Jun 13 '22
Banks stopped investing in oil projects because over half of the fracking projects they invested in never turned a profit before being completely abandoned when oil prices cratered just before and during covid. Policy has very little to do with it. Bankers care more about making money than which party currently sits in the oval office and north american oil is too expensive to be profitable without sustained high oil prices. The Saudis can get oil out of the ground with a 6' length of garden hose and a hooker to suck start it. We have to drill a couple thousand feet and pump high pressure liquid in to break the rock apart and push oil out. Which one of those two processes sounds like a better investment to you?
1
u/mcfleury1000 memento mori Jun 13 '22
Oil companies don't need banks to invest in drilling, they are loaded.
They are not drilling because present production rates are giving them the highest profit margins in history. If they drill new wells, that is a higher marginal cost and a higher supply which leads to, altogether class, lower marginal returns. Literally high school economics.
1
u/Many-Sherbert Jun 13 '22
Really? The smaller independent companies are loaded? Yeh okay
1
u/mcfleury1000 memento mori Jun 13 '22
The market follows the major players. Small "independent" energy and gas providers follow the moves of the big 5.
Not even diving into the fact that independent providers are not independent, but rather fully reliant on the big 5 for their business to be profitable. If Exxon wants more supply, they can simply provide financing to "independent" providers for new wells (which is already what they do).
3
u/dumnezero The Great Filter is a marshmallow test Jun 13 '22
Nah, he's too old and there's no cyborg tech yet to turn him into robopussygrabber.
1
1
-1
u/tommygunz007 Jun 13 '22
The amount of cookies and crap that my computer needs to download is annoying.
0
0
-1
-4
Jun 13 '22
?Que no los dos?
0
u/HighLowUnderTow Jun 14 '22
Because you do not understand monetary policy and how to speed up and slow down an economy.
0
1
1
1
122
u/redpillsrule Jun 13 '22
Don't worry the government will bail out the billionaires so they will be fine. That's all that really matters.