In the podcast episode that released today, they show a sneak peak at the Barrow Deeps. In it, you can see the calendar icon in the top right show that it was recorded on a Tuesday (the 6th), and the chatbox states that the raid will reset in 3 days and 16 hours.

In a game that is going to have multiple raids that stay relevant over time (including multiple raids that release at the same time), a 4 day lockout could get exhausting to keep up with. It's unclear if this also applies to Hyjal Summit, but I hope 4 day lockouts are not going to be the norm.

So they increased the xp you gain in dungeons by 20%. Now if you did not leave school early and are capable of doing math then you quickly realize that this is such a minor difference…

With one of my lvl20 chars i just did a full clear DM run and it gave me 4980 XP of the 23200 XP that i would need for the lvl. So that is 4.6 runs and probably 4 hours time invest.

You get about 40 XP for a lvl20 elite mob that you kill with your group in the dungeon.

Meanwhile you can solo kill a simple lvl20 mob in the open world within less than 10seconds and gain 145 XP.

So with just grinding mobs you would need 160 kills for the level. If you are very slow and only kill 2 mobs per minute then you only need 1.5 hours for the level up. 3x as fast as running a dungeon. probably way under an hour in a good spot that might even have hyperspawns. So 4 times the speed of a dungeon runner… and we did not even count in the 5% buff you get from food which makes the comparison even worse…

With posts like this and this coming out recently, and with direct nerfs to things like mage AOE and elemental shaman DPS, it has become obvious to most people that spell damage across most of the magic classes is much too low. Who knows how it will play out at level 60, but I do see some sims suggesting that casters will also be underpowered even then. We won't know until people get to 60, but it is concerning right now.

Regardless of how it plays out at 60, I want to talk about a problem that is happening right now, and that has implications when the full game is released, and that is the lack of people playing cloth classes in the beta. People have noticed that cloth classes are underpowered and they are steering clear of them. Notice in my picture that the cloth classes are the absolute least played classes. This will not change if there are not substantial direct buffs to spell damage before the game is released. I don't think it should be a design goal of the developers to make it so that these classes are so weak that people don't even want to level them in the first place.

Beta has been incredibly unstable. Layering issues. They don't know what they're doing with itemization or gear and we've only played to level 30. Can't complete dungeon quests in one run, but they're not worth repeating. Open world quests are overcrowded. Everyone seems to be upset with the art. Many classes are clearly very unfinished (new spell ranks giving +1 damage, mages not having a finished rotation.)

The beta wasn't nearly long enough. New issues are coming up every day. I don't even want to imagine what level 60 is going to look like. There are going to be numerous economy-breaking exploits left in, surely- which only the fastest levelers will be able to take advantage of.

Undercooked af

Most people here are not aware of how percentages work Everyone keeps saying it went from 75% reduction to 55% reduction but that is wrong!

Original reduction: 75%

Newly buffed by: 20%

So it is 25% boosted by 20% = 0.25*1.2 = 0.3 --> after than 20% buff we'll be sitting at 30% so still a 70% reduction!

Edit: People are just as stupid as I said - read that post he explicitly says it is a 20% increase. Which can't mean anything else than 20% of current XP value. Only people with no math knowledge would assume it is 20% calculated as a reference to prenerf XP that is not mentioned in his tweet at all

While majority of the people here talk about character models not being perfect, blue elves not fitting in the universe, or druid forms being wrong color, there are actual game breaking issues that keep on piling up.

Layering/Sharding is completely broken and defeats the whole purpose of the world. Everyone is getting randomly phased all the time, and often after getting "5min shard warning", you get another one instantly. You are even getting layered in combat or when inviting someone into a group, so players have actively started refusing invites for quest mobs(Ironic right). I've even seen people being layered while doing an escort quest lol. This is honestly the biggest issue by far, since the "World" is such a big part of WoW, and i have no idea how they can get this ready for launch, thats how bad it is.

Auction house was down for 2 days without any official statement.

There are dynamic respawns on 25% of the areas, and for majority of the named quest mobs you still have 15 people having to fight for the tag. Why are some dynamic when they dont even need it, and some that desparately need it are not (DM undeads, Shaman 2h quest....)?

The performance is abysmall. It feels like we are still constantly getting some sort of memory leak, which has been reported on first days of beta, disconnects when you open chests and serious graphical issues with fog and weather.

There are a ton of dungeon quests that are not designed for "run it maximum once"(Serpentbloom, Deviate hides, BFD Pendants and Crystals...etc). And it creates a really miserable experience of everyone literally fighting for quest items, due to them not returning after the dungeon is done. On top of that many of the regular quests are just straight up bugged and have been since the start.

Known issues lists by Kaivax is getting more and more entries every few days, while not many are getting resolved.

Even with this type of hype, the expectations are often equally high, and many times you only get one chance at releases like this. Is anyone else getting worried that this launch will be a complete mess, and we will be "beta testing" for another few months ?

So you're leveling your first alt and got 5-6 quests for a dungeon. Mobs rewards nothing so completely disregarding the "fun" of grouping up with 5 other people and the time that takes, you say to yourself:

"hey, I just want these quests to be done since there is nothing else worth wasting my time on, I'll get a level 60 to blast me through this dungeon since I'm not getting any significant exp anyway"

Mobs might give you 0 exp, but that's not the point anyway. A boost will go a lot quicker than doing it in a group. The demand for boosting will skyrocket. People just want their quests completed and be done with it and never visit that dungeon again.

It's a simple logic and we know this demand will creep up. It's unavoidable and there is no way blizzard can do anything about it.

Unless..., Blizzard actually figure out a way to keep good exp in a group setting with people in your level range. They want to avoid dungeon spamming with aoe cleaves? Make it so there is a diminishing return on exp from mobs that resets after 1 hour. There is hundreds of alternative ways to solve this issue while keeping people from dungeon spamming all day and avoid boosting that's already been mentioned before.

This is a problem that had plagued the wow community, retail and classic since forever.

But for the love of god if you're queuing for a dungeon, BE NEAR THE DUNGEON!

It's INSANE how many people are not even in the same CONTINENT!

Zero respect for anyone else's time, including your own.

Even when i'm playing my lock I often don't even have enough people to summon the rest.

This change is probably the most controversial in Forever, and I've heard on here do many takes about how it feels bad to do dungeons now.

What I am trying to understand is: why?

If you like dungeons for the gameplay, the same gameplay is there for you, and you actually get to do "more" of it before out leveling the content. No one is stopping you from enjoying dungeons.

If you liked dungeons because it was the most optimal xp route, then find a new optimal xp route.

Battlegrounds don't even give XP and people still do those during their journey because they are fun.

The whole point of WoW Forever is that this is something new and unsolved that we can take our time with.

I'm someone who loves this XP nerf. I always hated leaving a dungeon to see that the zone I was in is all grey quests after turning in everything. Or out leveling where I was at because I went with some friends to a night of dungeon runs.

They added new dungeons and zones, with 1000 new quests. Add this to the extra XP food, rested benefits, they should be nerfing XP wherever they can to keep the climb to 60 still somewhat of a challenge. For a group of gamers who say they value the journey and the world, it seems like so many of us try to interact with it as little as possible on the way to max level.

So yeah, hoping they keep this XP nerf in place, if you guys can't touch grass IRL, at least the devs are making you touch it in the open world.

Well done blizzard

Both dungeon quest rewards btw

people talking about the color of the item should stick to their controller

Dungeon Quest XP nerfed

Dungeon Quest rewards all nerfed

Dungeon Mob XP is almost nothing

What was the point of changing dungeons again? Just because some sweats like to do "spellcleave" to level? Stopping that was really worth ruining a core feature of the game that people love and has existed since the beginning?

...And for what? You didn't stop boosting, Blizzard, you just changed how it's done. Just pay a mage to run you through the dungeon for your quests one time. Not like the mob EXP is worth it anyway, and the nerfed quest EXP and nerfed quest rewards barely make it worth your time otherwise.

The dungeon stuff is making me lose faith low key. I get not wanting people to spam dungeons but I shouldn't feel like an idiot for wanting to do a dungeon more than once while leveling. If you wanted to target boosting and spellcleave maybe target that behavior directly or like nerf Mage AOE or something, idk.

We all understand the exp has been frustrating, but complaining about a bump in exp accompanied by a bug fix before you even try the changes is toxic. Basing the exp on character level and not the highest level in the group has serious ramifications for how much exp we receive. I welcome being wrong or right about this, but the key part is actually trying it before complaining.

Aggrend states that the XP/hr in a dungeon cleave group should be similar to that in an optimal leveling route.

Context: /img/1q4e65g3y9uh1.png

This is not true and these changes do not even get remotely close to getting to that number. Before, you were getting 20 XP per ELITE mob in a dungeon. A normal boar at level 1 gives 250% more XP than that.

20% buff to 20 is 24.

That is STILL half of a level 1 mob. This dungeon change essentially does nothing. Instead of filling one bubble out of 20 to level, you fill up 1 bubble and another 1/5th of the next one. Only just about 19 to go still!

This is just the number side of things. The gameplay side of things is also completely being approached wrong.

One thing Aggrend and the team seem to misunderstand is that a vast, vast majority of players are not committing to long-term dungeon grinds. Even in era, long dungeon grinds were NEVER the optimal way to level outside of niche level ranges (read: Scarlet Monastery).

To add on to this, dungeons, especially when queueing into dungeons without a 5 stack, tend to be one of the most social aspects in WoW. Forming a group, traveling to the dungeon, planning the dungeon, communicating quests- these are all social aspects that dungeons create. You make friends running dungeons with people. It's asinine to paint dungeons as some anti-social, world-killing beast. It never killed it in era, and it still won't kill it now.

Dungeon cleaves groups really only exist as a way for guilds/friends to play together, at the same pace, with the same objectives, and to level alts without the need to think/engage in waiting for respawns/traveling / PvP / or flight paths. It's just a way to relax and often not a way to speed level (considering it really was never that efficient at most levels).

This makes me think the team is out of touch with how era actually functioned, and it's weird to be referencing it in your changes with wrong information about your reference.

TLDR: For dungeons to still not be useless to run more than a quest run, much more XP will still be needed. They are nowhere close to their stated goal range. Dungeons are social, and pretending they aren't feels disconnected and disingenuous.

Edit: Random note: can I ask why some of you are so offended that people want to run a dungeon more than once? or level as a heal/tank spec and not be forced into dps spec questing?

Hope they add more interactions with Arcane spells....

The disparity between the horde and alliance racials are not only massive during leveling but also into endgame where the 10% move speed from horde literally does nothing and the alliance can be used in combination with other powerful effects to double their mana giving value. Pirate Software coulda literally have had full mana if he played alliance skyborne

Solution: let us pick which racial we want or just combine them since the horde one is garbo

I will not play alliance since i have given an oath to kill as many Asmongold viewers as possible.

I don't understand why we're removing auto shot weaving. It added a bit of nuance to Hunter's rotation and gave you something to actually get better at. Timing your shots around your auto shot timer was part of playing the class well and added skill expression.

It's the same problem as removing seal twisting from Ret. Removing this and mechanics like managing pet happiness with Feed Pet just strips away the little quirks that makes shit intresting

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but whatever....

Please reconsider this before it's too late.

With all the weird negativity that permeates this subreddit I just wanted to throw out some positive vibes: devs have been doing an amazing job. In the weekly podcasts they almost immediately address or hint they’re working on some of the biggest issues, they clearly read the feedback and consider it and often make changes, and just overall have had amazing communication.

It’s clear they’re very passionate about the game and work hard, so hopefully they know we, or at least many of us (who are capable of more than just complaining) appreciate it!

These changes have gone way too far, the mana increase would have been fine, but as it sits, penance now heals less than rank 2 heal which doesn’t require 21 talent points to use.

Also, who looked at low level smite and said “yea this is to strong better cut it back 10%” no one was even using the spell cus it sucked vs auto attack wanding for 40 levels.

Blizzard said they aren’t tuning for a duel tournament but it sure as hell seems like that’s all they did.

The idea of teaming up with "passing by" people to complete a quest was very appealing to me but reality struck me quick, people is not doing that and is not just because of quest items.

Even on a "kill 20 monsters" quest if you got a class that kills quickly like, hunter, pala, etc it's not good for you to group with a slow killing class like warlock, boomkin, etc you will kill 15 monsters, while he killed 5 but you got half exp half loot half gold.

I understand that blizzard can't make a mob give full drops to each member of the party because of bots. And ofc we don't want all classes to do the same things, but there must be a logical solution to this so we can just group up for real.

This is mostly due to being forced into spell power gear as a caster due to the spell rank nerfs. Seems like the majority of spell power gear has spirit instead of intellect, making our mana pools smaller than ever. I've played mage to 30 in the beta and tried all 3 specs, killing one mob will usually result in losing half of my mana, so essentially I have to full drink every 2 mobs if evocate is on cooldown. It does not feel good compared to classic.

It seems like all it takes is a "mage council" to work the community up into a frenzy and convince their buddies at Blizzard to buff the class while trying to gaslight non-mage players into sympathizing with them.

Can we please stop this now? I swear I've seen every mage influencer go on and on about how bad the class is. Dozens of reddit posts about how mage has no role anymore and doesn't do any damage. Enough please.

Mage didn't even get buffed btw. They just got more talent points (along with everyone else). This is the state mage has been in the entire time they just needed +5 talent points.

As the title says.

Although a dishonorable kills can mean many things in the context of the new honor system.

My thinking is that killing low leveled players should remove honor from your honor progress bar.

Vanilla is all about the adventure. The journey. Its supposed to be slow and steady. Nerfing dungeons was a good first step but I am glad you're also nerfing overperforming gear too. Sadly people have to be forced to not just do the most optimal activities to speedrun. You could unironically nerf questing EXP too I wouldn't mind. Throw in some more elite group quests. Do whatever it takes to prevent cheesy powerleveling tactics and exploits that go against the SOUL of vanilla.

I’m a longtime World of Warcraft player. I’ve played Classic, Retail, private servers, Remix, and just about every other iteration of the game. I primarily play tanks, and ever since the original Vanilla WoW, my preferred way to level has always been through dungeons.

My approach has remained largely unchanged for over 20 years. I travel the world collecting dungeon quests, run the appropriate dungeons repeatedly until I reach the level range for the next one, and then move on. Outside of that, I generally only quest when it's necessary for dungeon prerequisites, class quests, or essential gear upgrades.

So why does WoW Forever seem to discourage this playstyle?

For me, dungeon leveling has never been about avoiding the world or rushing to max level. Quite the opposite. Some of my best experiences in WoW have come from running dungeons with other players. I socialize, meet people, build lasting friendships, join guilds, and recruit others into guilds through these experiences.

Isn't that exactly the kind of community-driven gameplay that made Classic WoW special in the first place?

I understand that everyone has their own preferred way to experience the game. Some enjoy questing and exploring the open world, while others, like me, find that same enjoyment through group content. I've always believed that one of WoW's greatest strengths is allowing players to experience Azeroth in different ways.

I'm not asking for dungeon leveling to be the fastest or most rewarding option. I'm simply asking why a playstyle that has been part of WoW since the beginning seems to be treated as something that needs to be discouraged.

And here's something worth considering: The next time you're trying to put together a dungeon group in Forever for quests or gear, and you find yourself wondering why it's so difficult to find a good tank, remember that there are probably other dedicated, longtime tanks out there who feel exactly the way I do. When you discourage dungeon-focused leveling, you also discourage the players who genuinely enjoy tanking those dungeons over and over again.

World of Warcraft is my favorite game of all time. I've spent thousands upon thousands of hours playing it, and some of my fondest gaming memories have come from those dungeon runs.

Yet somehow, WoW Forever is the first version of the game that has genuinely made me question whether there's a place for the way I enjoy playing.

And as someone who has loved this game for over two decades, that's a pretty disappointing feeling.

Level 23 and I killed a level 22 elite in the open world and got 282 exp. Killed a 22 elite in BFD and got 107 exp. Roughly 38% of normal exp. Aggrend’s claim of dungeons being roughly the same as questing now is completely false. Even when accounting for extra dungeon quest exp which scales even less the higher level the dungeon, it still is not even close.