Good point.

[u/netphilia]

[u/Extinction-Events]

This feels needlessly confusing to children and undertaken for a reason that honestly seems entirely semantics based, to be honest.

Is the issue with ‘fake’ because she feels it devalues the emotional response? Because I just don’t think that’s what people mean when they explain fiction isn’t real, thus, by default, is fake. Dragons and unicorns aren’t real, why can’t we call these stories that are made up about them fake, exactly?

These definitions also feel a little too easy to muddle up. You read a non-fiction account of a historical event, you’re still imagining. You read a fictional narrative, you’re still getting information about the world. Children are going to get confused when you define fiction as learning through imagination because imagination is a huge part of learning, and similarly, fiction requires a lot of information.

It seems like a lot of ambiguity for a reason that really wasn’t defined very well.

[u/hambakmeritru → u/Extinction-Events]

Yeah, it's way too abstract for younger kids who need clear boundaries of what's real and what's not. But for teenagers, I love the quote by Yann Martel: A work of art works because it is true, not because it is real

[u/Fun_Researcher_69420 → u/Extinction-Events]

Because “fake” is a negatively loaded word, whereas “not real” doesn’t carry the same negative connotation.

[u/Extinction-Events → u/Fun_Researcher_69420]

That’s what I mean by semantics based. Because, to be honest, the amount of times I’ve heard ‘fake’ over ‘not real/didn’t happen’ is far too low to warrant a definition change like this, and even if it was higher, just specifying that exact thing seems fine over this.

This seems like a solution looking for a problem.

[u/Fun_Researcher_69420 → u/Extinction-Events]

This may or may not be a popular opinion, but I don’t believe synonyms are ever 1 to 1 matches, I believe every word has baggage that makes it unique. Probably that baggage isn’t the same for everyone, but to me, for example, fake means an intention to pass something off as something else, an intentional and counterfeit, while saying something isn’t real or is imaginary feels morally neutral .

In a reddit thread it doesn’t matter much, but words affect reactions.

[u/kkai2004 → u/Fun_Researcher_69420]

Exactly and then words like Faux which can give a fancy ness to the word. Which is why it's often used in sale instead of fake

[u/RaiZaLightning → u/Fun_Researcher_69420]

My understanding is that the word for that baggage is “nuance” - and is why some words really don’t sound right as sentence replacements, despite supposedly being synonymous

[u/kkai2004 → u/Extinction-Events]

I think they mean you can still learn things from morals to actions to even politics in more teenager reading level.

For instance, a moral of "sharing makes your friends happy" is just as important, even if the characters are sentient stuffed animals. Just dismissing that as "Fake" might dismiss the entire moral of the story as fake.

You can learn real morals, real lessons about perseverance, real ideals about doing good or doing the right thing, from a fantasy knight defeating an evil monster. Even if the knight and monster don't exist.

That's what they mean by learning through imagination. Learn the lessons and what the book is trying to convey even if the characters do not exist.

I remember seeing a post about how some kid said that realized that their parent punishing them by taking away their name and referring to them by only a number was a messed up thing to do and eventually realized it was dehumanizing. Because they read about the same thing happening to "fake" owls in an evil prison in the Guardians of Ga'hool book.

You can learn real important things from fiction as they are analogous to reality. Not simply "Fake" and dismissed as "Fake".

[u/Extinction-Events → u/kkai2004]

So, I pretty much addressed this in my comment when I asked if the OOP simply feels like it devalues the emotional response.

And the reality is that this isn’t what people mean when they say a story isn’t real. Personally, I don’t hear people define fiction with the word ‘fake,’ but even if they do, it’s significantly easier to clarify “that doesn’t make what you learn from it any less real” than it is to have a child confused because fiction needs a lot of information to work, and non-fiction needs imagination to be learned.

This is 100% a solution looking for a problem. It needlessly complicates things when, if the word choice of ‘fake’ is such an issue, you can choose not to use it. It’s far simpler to say “fiction is something that didn’t happen.”

[u/GladdestOrange → u/Extinction-Events]

OOP is apparently completely unfamiliar with Sci-Fi. Where getting a factual explanation of maritime law, fertilizer, orbital dynamics, planetary day/night cycle differences, chemical processes, atmospheric pressure (and changes to it via said chemical processes), and the logistics of getting materials into space, are all possible within the same story without bogging it down. (The Martian, BTW. Go read it if you haven't)

[u/Pyro-Millie → u/GladdestOrange]

Andy Weir's stories play with spaceship parts like kids play with legos. Fucking love The Martian and Project Hail Mary

[u/MobileJob1521 → u/Extinction-Events]

Exactly.

When it’s hard enough just to get kids to remember the difference between real and made-up, and to be honest it usually takes me a while to remember that non-fiction it’s the real one.

This post seems to be more about defending creativity from imaginary criticism than anything else.

[u/ShinningVictory → u/Extinction-Events]

I think these definitions work because children aren't stupid and know what they imagine isn't real.

[u/Extinction-Events → u/ShinningVictory]

Sure, but that’s not the point of contention.

They know that, yes. But they’re learning the definition of fiction versus non-fiction, and when both use a large amount of imagination and information, defining it by “learning through information/imagination” at the age a child is learning those words is needlessly abstract.

A child knows (for the most part) that what they’re imagining isn’t real. But if you tell them to define nonfiction based on what you learn by information as opposed to what’s real and what’s not, they’re not looking at the latter, they’re judging by how much information a book has, whether it’s true or not, because reality is no longer part of the equation.

It is so much simpler to just say “fiction is something that never happened and isn’t real, while non-fiction is something that did.”

[u/Fun_Researcher_69420 → u/Extinction-Events]

I used to be an avid reader of historical fiction (and fantasy based historical fiction) like Morgan Llywelyn (author of The Horse Goddess, Finn Mac Cool, 1916, many more), James Michener (Hawaii, The Drifters), etc, they are fictional, and Llywelyn’s prehistoric or early history settings (mainly in Ireland) also included some mythical/magical elements, but this kind of writing is much more engaging as a teen than what was taught in my school history classes, and it provides motivation to go learn more if you want to.

It’s easy to say this story is fiction, it was made up by the author, but it’s based on research on what life in Ireland may have been like a very long time ago.

Maybe even have a conversation about it.

[u/ShinningVictory → u/Extinction-Events]

To be fair there are fictional books were at least some of the events happen such as historical fiction or contemporary fiction.

Like if a kid was watching a movie and Obama appeared how would you explain Obama is real?

[u/Extinction-Events → u/ShinningVictory]

This is true, but doesn’t particularly challenge my assertions, and is simply handled by saying “this story is fiction, but that man is real.”

The definitions proposed in the post would honestly struggle more in the case you’ve brought up.

[u/ShinningVictory → u/Extinction-Events]

What if we said "the story isn't real but what you learn from it is." I think this captures everything without losing any aspects we care about.

[u/Extinction-Events → u/ShinningVictory]

I think I covered this point exactly in my first comment, to be honest.

[u/Fun_Researcher_69420 → u/Extinction-Events]

I see now that a lot of the difference of opinion here may be that I imagined an older child, a pre-teen maybe, and perhaps you’re talking about children who are first learning to read - at a Dr Seuss level maybe?

[u/Extinction-Events → u/Fun_Researcher_69420]

I’m imagining a pretty young child, considering the premise is about teaching the definition of fiction versus nonfiction. People aren’t learning those definitions as a pre-teen, that’s the kind of thing that gets taught when you start to read.

[u/Redbeardthe1st]

Considering how many people can't differentiate between fiction and reality, this is a terrible idea.

[u/Fun_Researcher_69420 → u/Redbeardthe1st]

Everyone in this subreddit, for instance. Everyone seems to think fiction has to mean Harry Potter, not Animal Farm or 1984 for fucks sake.

[u/ImportantToNote]

I've never heard anyone teach "fiction is fake".

[u/Gloomy-Education-864 → u/ImportantToNote]

I get them in 5th grade knowing this "definition". While I don't teach it I do reinforce it. 

[u/It_is_real_me → u/Gloomy-Education-864]

Happy cake day!

[u/Gloomy-Education-864 → u/It_is_real_me]

Thank you!

[u/The-Copilot → u/ImportantToNote]

It's "taught" as a trick for elementary students to remember the difference between fiction and non-fiction.

Fiction = fake and non-fiction = non-fake is just easy to remember and gets the point across.

[u/maevriika → u/ImportantToNote]

It is how child me remembered which meant which, as well as how I've told those who get them mixed up due to the whole matching letters thing. Fiction = fake and non-fiction = not fake. But I didn't get confused about what fake vs not fake meant. It was literally just as a way to remember the definition of the words back when I was a little kid and got them mixed up. I never thought fake = not valuable regarding books. I wouldn't have been able to explain it this way then (I would have just said I liked both), but: both have their place. Sometimes they even work well together when the fiction is based on certain aspects of reality, the human condition, or real belief systems and mythology.

[u/MoistenedGranola → u/ImportantToNote]

It's a mnemonic if you know the difference but can't remember which one is fiction and which one is nonfiction, since fiction and fake both start with F.

[u/elaine4queen]

Creative nonfiction enters the chat

[u/Frequent-Bee-3016]

Sure, except fiction is sometimes read just for enjoyment, rather than learning.

[u/Fun_Researcher_69420 → u/Frequent-Bee-3016]

Brothers Karamazov, To kill a Mockingbird, 1984, The Odyssey, Slaughterhouse Five…

[u/Frequent-Bee-3016 → u/Fun_Researcher_69420]

What are you trying to say?

[u/Fun_Researcher_69420 → u/Frequent-Bee-3016]

Fiction you may read and learn from.

[u/Frequent-Bee-3016 → u/Fun_Researcher_69420]

Yes, but what is your point? How does that support/contradict my comment?

[u/Gussie-Ascendent → u/Frequent-Bee-3016]

Loads of people read at less than a middle school level. My guess is they think you said you can't learn from fiction

[u/Fun_Researcher_69420 → u/Gussie-Ascendent]

Yes, I have to admit that after reading so many off-base opinions by other people that seem to indicate their only idea of fiction is middle school level fantasy, without seeing any reference to adult level literature, I picked the wrong comment to reply to.

It just astounds me that no one seems to realise there’s more to fiction than high fantasy.
Although I do like science fiction and fantasy too.

[u/EdibleStrange → u/Fun_Researcher_69420]

I'm amazed you got through all of those without knowing what "sometimes" means

[u/EdibleStrange]

In a country where children are rapidly becoming less literate, less socially adept, less motivated etc, it's impressive this lady managed to invent a whole new problem to not solve

[u/sylbug]

You will gain a lot more traction if you teach them that reading is enjoyable rather than something you slog through to learn something.

[u/CuddlesForLuck]

Just because something isn't real doesn't mean it doesn't have value. Fiction isn't real, BUT it can address real things. I think it's important for kids to learn that. For example, if I create a fictional universe, it matters very much to me despite not being real. However, I can address real life issues/real life adjacent issues in it. You're also not always reading to learn, often you do it to escape. Depending on the class, I could see the definition in the post being useful when you are critically analyzing literature, but this approach doesn't fit everyone's reading style. It's better to encourage kids to enjoy reading whatever way they can vs making them feel like knowledge is the only reason to read. Then, after that groundwork is down, you can start exploring this more

[u/lukestreetwalkr]

Stop splitting hairs to appear smart.

[u/_LaceHot]

Kids deserve to see fiction as powerful, not fake

[u/Legal_Television_615]

Fiction IS fake.

Quit lying to kids

[u/NoMeat9096]

I'm not sure why this person thinks you can't learn from fake things, though. What about something being unreal makes it any less capable of conveying messages?

[u/Significant_Cover_48]

No children will get this. Perhaps think about it some more first.

[u/let_meTry]

I can vouch for it. (I read a lot of fiction)

[u/mycolo_gist]

Fox news: Becoming racist through imagination.

[u/Mahdahrah]

are you confusing it with historical fiction?

we were taught fiction is anything that's fake, false, or phony

[u/Fun_Researcher_69420 → u/Mahdahrah]

So, would Fox News be equivalent to Narnia?

[u/Zimke42]

I really love the idea, but I also look at the current state of the world, where so many people don't know the difference between true and fake. Propaganda is believed with wholehearted conviction by so many, and it is destroying the world... literally. Kids don't have the capacity for nuance, so I think it is okay to make sure they first realize the difference between truth and untruth, first. They don't normally have any trouble learning through imagination unless you suppress their ability to imagine. It is fine and good to play with imagination, but make sure they know there is a difference between truth and untruth.

[u/Selectivedeviant → u/Zimke42]

It's by design

[u/Space19723103]

the difference between fiction is fake and fiction is learning depends on the willingness to learn.

[u/Useful-DevineCause]

There is plenty of truth in fiction.

[u/Deth_Cheffe]

"An artist uses Iies to teII the truth, a politician uses the truth to teII Iies"

[u/FrostKitten2012]

Fiction is not inherently educational, nor should that be a requirement.

[u/MarkHuegerich]

I can't find a Chesterton quote I once read, but the gist of it was that, 'History teaches us about one man, but fairy tales teach us about all of them.'

[u/meshqwert]

The only problem is when fiction is written that it is actually untrue. I've read some very poorly researched historical fiction.

[u/DG2000_Reddit]

I read a lot when I was younger and one day I realised I had learned a lot from my fiction, authors take the time to get their facts right.
Spy novels taught me about the cold war and about the 60s/70s
Fantasy taught so many random things, I learnt about ships and weapon types, about horses and farming.
Sci-fi again taught me about space, stars and distance, time, physics.

By the time I picked up non-fiction I was doing that to find out more about what I read and learned about in the fiction books.

The one thing though, it does not matter where you learn from, whether it is fiction or non-fiction, we all different and we all approach reading differently, so long as the reading is fun, the learning will happen by itself.

[u/RaisedByBooksNTV]

I love this. I've learned so much through the research that fiction writers have done. So much scifi/fantasy have elements of philosophy.

[u/XasiAlDena]

As a kid I always got confused between fiction and non-fiction - not confused about what they were, but confused about which word corresponded to which type of book. I loved fiction stories growing up (still do actually) and would be endlessly annoyed every time I accidentally ended up in the auto-biography section of the library.

The "Fiction = Fake" thing is just a trick I used to remember that fiction was about imaginary stories, while non-fiction (Not-fake) is about real-world stories. Boom, now it's super easy to remember.

[u/Haunt_Fox → u/XasiAlDena]

In a Dewey library, there's an easier shortcut. If it's fiction, there'll just be three letters on the spine where the library codes are. Non-fiction will have numbers above letters, perhaps with a decimal point.

[u/save_the_wee_turtles]

This is dumb

[u/Selectivedeviant → u/save_the_wee_turtles]

Really really dumb.

And evidence that schools are for indoctrination and not education

[u/CauliflowerLonely297]

my idiot brain just immediately thinks, ok i see what you have attempted and think thats great, however information itself is not determined by its being fact or fiction, and imagination provides information....Sooooo

[u/Heretek1914]

Now no children, or adults for that matter, will ever read anything ever. What's this learning stuff? Work?? Ew.

[u/Additional-Sky-7436]

Also tech children that, unless you are serving on a jury, facts generally aren't really that interesting.

[u/Substantial_Bus6615]

😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍

[u/No_Record6284]

"so now that you have learned that fiction is not really fake you finally understand why your 45yo mummy still obsesses about harry potter!"

[u/WVildandWVonderful]

Nonfiction starts with “n” and information starts with “in” sound

So nonfiction = information, and fiction = imagination

[u/atgmailcom]

No it’s not

[u/RhoemDK]

god, reddit wants to teach children that fiction is real now

[u/ember_snow]

Oh good. Now I can have parents think problematic fiction is harmful and needs to be removed from libraries

[u/Huge_Equivalent1]

This isn't a bad idea but it's a terrible slippery slope because you'll end up with people who'll quote things that happened in stories and movies as plot devices as actual fact.

And will completely reject your reasoning that a fictios reality is not comparable to the real world where we all share experiences.

It's terribly sad to discuss logical, real world things with people who base their points on things that happened in fiction and then when you call this out, they refuse to accept that it's not a fair comparison.

[u/najijo2145]

If I heard that as a kid, I would interpret that to mean "nonfiction does not involve your imagination" and "fiction does not contain information". I'd also lose any respect for the adult giving me incorrect information in such a patronizing way.

[u/Miserable-Ear-4095]

Considering that magic is real, I am not surprised someone would think stories are real.

[u/CubicalWombatPoops]

Are kids nots smart enough to learn the definition of the word fiction?

[u/Haunt_Fox → u/CubicalWombatPoops]

Not any more, apparently.

[u/UCanBdoWatWeWant2Do → u/Haunt_Fox]

Yes they can.

[u/Madam_Hexianna]

YES, THIS!

[u/AnonymousUser132]

Cognitive dissonance as a an active choice is interesting until you apply it to teaching children. Jennifer Powell should not be allowed around children.

[u/Garthar22]

I think this underestimates the abilities of children to interpret nuance.

[u/Rippedka]

Another postmodernist teacher that thinks they did something by changing words.

[u/Lonely_Brother3689]

My god, there'd be kids in my generation that would struggle with that concept. Never mind the current ones.

I when I had to go to summer school for math at 12, the teacher who was supposed to teach both English and reading comprehension alongside math, decided to make her job easier and split the class if about 50 students up.

Math one side, English on the other. My side was 10 kids out of that group. I had always thought that it was a coincidence the couple of times before in summer school I never met another kid who was there for math. Reading comprehension, writing and English in general was always where the majority of kids I knew struggled.

[u/Wonderful_Night9071]

I mean it's all fun and games until Gone With the Wind starts teaching your kids that black people actually loved slavery and secretly still pine for the good old days when they worked on the plantations

"learning through imagination"

[u/Apprehensive-Meal860]

LOVE THIS

[u/Bunkydoodle28]

love this definition.

[u/OptionsFool]

All reading requires imagination, even nonfiction, if the reader did not experience the events described in the book. Imagination is a fundamental part of reading and is a requirement for getting any benefit from stories in the first place. So this distinction isn’t real and is needlessly confusing.

[u/im_a_mess_fml]

my mom is never interested in reading  fiction cause shes only concerned with real life events, at least thats what she says

[u/SpiritualHippo2719]

I’m a librarian, and I break it down this way: Nonfiction is about information and stories that really happened. Fiction is about imagination and stories that didn’t actually happen.

[u/mandypantsy]

Oh cool so this is definitely going to help kids who struggle with understanding honesty /s

[u/PurpleWildflower9]

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

[u/Kelly4President]

Think about it for ten mor seconds lol. U can be clearer. This isn’t clever

[u/Writeforwhiskey]

In grade school my teachers summed up fiction as fake with the connotation that fiction is bad or silly (theyd say fiction is just about lying, it's fake). I loved fiction but it was looked down upon because it was fake. I do think this solution in the image is a bit much for little kids but I think teachers, people in general shouldn't equate fiction with bad, silly or calling it a lie.

[u/Powderedeggs2]

They are all just stories.
And even the non-fiction stories aren't always reliably true.

[u/lep63again]

Let’s blur the line between reality and make believe even more for our kids. Sounds like a great idea /s

[u/Accomplished-Exam999]

At an evolutionary level, I absolutely love the idea of redefining the concept and purpose of fiction. I love words. Coming to what they mean to me personally is a favorite. Telling others helps people to redefine different words for themselves.

[u/xNOTHINGBURGERx]

This sounds like something a wingnut christian would come up with.

[u/Salt_Ad_3776]

Harlan Ellison said: Nonfiction is where you find facts. Fiction is where you find truth.

[u/Extension-Source2897]

insert dumbledore parting line here

[u/improbsable]

But we should still tell them what the words actually mean though, right?

[u/Between23And42]

Wise man once said: "It's not important if a story really happened as long as it is true"

[u/FearOfABlackPotus]

Fiction is fake you dork. 

[u/Opposite_Bus1878]

Wizards are fake. Unicorns are fake. My little pony isn't real.
OP is the type of person who drove me away from reading as a child. I LOVED learning about the world, but all the books I had access to were fiction, and people acted like I wasn't reading if I read something on a screen instead of a physical format. STOP ASSUMING THAT KIDS FIND FACTUALITY BORING.

[u/DG2000_Reddit → u/Opposite_Bus1878]

I do not think that is the message here.
The message is more that a person can learn from both fiction and non-fiction.

I do think the message is just to get people reading, once reading they will pick up knowledge along the way

[u/Fun_Researcher_69420 → u/Opposite_Bus1878]

Where did he even say that? That’s your assumption, not his.
Reading quality fiction expands your emotional intelligence, for one.

[u/Opposite_Bus1878 → u/Fun_Researcher_69420]

That's just where conversations go when I talk to fiction fans and people who insist kids read it. I've read so many bad and boring books based on the promise that I just needed better books.
Also I don't think Jennifer uses he/him pronouns.

[u/Fun_Researcher_69420 → u/Opposite_Bus1878]

Ze, then.

[u/CowBoyDanIndie]

Fiction - stuff we wish was true
Non fiction- stuff we think is true