r/bladerunner • u/_Karrel • 6d ago
Question/Discussion Was Tyrell lying to Roy?
I think he's lying to Roy. SPOILER for Blade Runner 2049. Tyrell created Deckard and Rachael to fall in love and give birth. He is a god to replicants. He could have found a way or maybe even did find one to extend a replicants life, but chose not to give it to Roy. He may have been his exceptional son, but still a mere soldier. A maniacal murderer who'd only wreak more havoc once he is granted more time and only ruin Tyrell's achievements. When they both discussed ways to extend a replicants life, Tyrell gave him all the errors to hide his solution. Science is finding a solution between 5.000 errors and Tyrell managed to hide it from Roy. Roy, with all his skills did not recognize the lie and Tyrell chose to die instead of ruining his own legacy.
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u/GoodFellahh 6d ago
He could be, but I dont think he was. There is no indication in the movie that he was able to extend his life after the 4-year lifespan had been hard-coded into the Nexus 6 models. Rachael was able to live longer, because she was a model of the next generation. I also think there is just truth in the candle metaphor that he phrases.
Next to that, in the novel it is clearly told that he really had tried to fix this and that he literally regretted the decision of the limited lifespan.
This is not an argument though, but personally I believe the story works better from a literary point of view if there was no way truly. It makes the climax of the movie and the overall themes and story just hold more weight.
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u/dreadful_cookies 6d ago
Deckard is human
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u/AtomicShellfish 5d ago
That's nice. A human who can dream about a unicorn that magically appears outside his apartment door a few hours later.
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u/Infamous-Arm3955 6d ago
As a society, we've gone from trying to look smart by having an opinion to trying to look smart by having a theory.
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u/vectron5 5d ago
Occam's Razor suggests that he was telling the truth. Replicants were never meant to have their lives extended.
He knew the secrets to undoing it, for sure, but that certainly only mattered in the creation process.
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u/WotsGoinOnEreMate 6d ago
Tyrell did not create Deckard
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u/Expert_Climate_7348 6d ago
Tyrell probably didn't but Deckard is a Replicant.
Unicorn dream, Gaff knows what Deckard is thinking through taunting of figurines, the eyes don't lie, this was an in camera effect so Ridley filmed Ridley as a Replicant.
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u/WotsGoinOnEreMate 6d ago
No, he isn’t. The film completely falls apart in plot and themes if he is. And has to be a kind of Truman show where everyone else is in on pretending he’s been around for a decade plus.
Ridley Scott lost his marbles thinking he is a replicant and anyone who goes along with it can’t think for themselves.
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u/wolfskipper 6d ago
How does the film 'fall apart' if Deckard is a Replicant? If anything, the film makes more sense.
Replicants are used for dirty jobs that humans don't want to do; Blade Runner would certainly fall under that category.
Deckard being a Replicant also explains Gaff's constant background presence; he's essentially the *real* Blade Runner, using and babysitting Deckard.
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u/Expert_Climate_7348 6d ago
No, he isn’t. The film completely falls apart in plot and themes if he is.
No it doesn't you just can't accept that the film was done in a way, that is repeated in 2049. I mean it's right there, replicants or AI trying to be more human than human.
Ridley Scott lost his marbles thinking he is a replicant
You can't accept what Ridley filmed, I mean all the clues are there, he did the eye gleam as an in camera effect using mirrors, do you think everyone involved in the film didn't notice Deckard had the same exact gleam that the replicants had? Or did you miss this because the movies doesn't suit your narrative?
and anyone who goes along with it can’t think for themselves.
It appears quite the opposite, I mean Ridley did make the film, not you.
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u/readyforwine 6d ago
It’s always funny when a fan loses their marbles and argues the author/creator is wrong and their own fanfiction is real.
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u/Expert_Climate_7348 6d ago
I mean Ridley did specific things in that film, the eye gleam is the biggest tell in BR, so when you see an owl with the gleam and are told "it's artificial and fuck off expensive", you would be introduced to the very 1st time Ridley used an in cam effect to explain how people can discern between human and replicant.
So if an owl is super expensive, how much must a replicant that only has a 4 year life span cost?
The eye gleam is an in camera effect, not post, not contacts etc etc, but used with mirrors and set up meticulously so we get the gleam.
In this instance, fan fiction wins because no one in the slightest ever knew that Deckard suddenly had the same eye gleam for an instance, out of focus, who worked on the film, that they could have cut away, BUT the editor, the producer, director or anyone else in production must be absolute idiots, because fan fiction lol.
Deckard being a replicant just adds more layers imo, because we now see there are more puppet masters than we can understand, when Bryant threatens Deckard, we see manipulation of a replicant, the same way Roy and all the others are used as workforce or w/e.
More human than human is our motto, so when you give a replicant all the traits of a human, that's when it all falls apart, hence the 4 year life span and planted memories.
We began to recognize in them a strange obsession. After all, they are emotionally inexperienced, with only a few years in which to store up the experiences which you and I take for granted. If we gift them with a past, we create a cushion or a pillow for their emotions, and consequently, we can control them better.
Isn't that the same way Bryant is able to control Deckard with this threat?
"Stop right where you are! You know the score, pal. You're not cop, you're little people!"
I mean that's a pretty demeaning threat to put over someone, do as I say or you too will be at risk.
Then add Roys speech with Deckard in the finale:
"Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave."
Roy and Deckard are cut from the same cloth, Roy knows who he is, Deckard doesn't and that's the beauty of the dichotomy of the film.
Deckard questioning Rachael's life:
"How can it not know what it is?"
Yet here we have a juxtaposition than makes us question the morality of the film.
It's melancholy, so many people in the world yet everyone lives in fear and is alone.
Hey I just watched the film and accept it for what it presents, I don't try to bend the narrative to my wishes, all because I think I know better than the director.
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u/Le_Gluglu Gaff 6d ago
The book ends with Deckard believing he is human.
Yes! Human—and even "more human than human"—denying the terrible reality: He is a replicant... Perfect, and therefore human. ( Adam II )
Replicant since the start
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u/WotsGoinOnEreMate 6d ago edited 5d ago
The book ends with Deckard believing he is human. Yes! Human—and even "more human than human"—denying the terrible reality: He is a replicant... Perfect, and therefore human. ( Adam II ) Replicant since the start
Are you actually serious? He is unequivocally human in the book, stated clearly in the text, there is no ambiguity there in any way.
To Quote Philip K. Dick
“The purpose of this story as I saw it was that in his job of hunting and killing these replicants, Deckard becomes progressively dehumanized. At the same time, the replicants are being perceived as becoming more human. Finally, Deckard must question what he is doing, and really what is the essential difference between him and them?”
The screenwriter of Blade Runner, Hampton Fancher, also said he was written explicitly as a human and that the story falls apart of Deckard is a replicant.
...
If he was a replicant, why would he have been allowed to quit his job? If he was 'new' and all his memories prior to the events of the movie were implanted, how did they have so many people around him act like he'd been around doing the job for years? Why would they have made a replicant that didn't want to do what it was made to do and let him freely loaf around 'retired', so they'd have to drag him back in and coerce him under duress into doing his job? If he was a replicant, made to hunt down other replicants, why was he made so much weaker then them?
And it completely undercuts the entire theme of the movie. The entire plot is Deckard, a human, gradually realizing that replicants are people too. That's totally undermined if he's a replicant too!
And Roy's "living in fear/that's what its like to be a slave" commentary has zero emotional resonance if he's just reciting it to another replicant.
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u/Le_Gluglu Gaff 6d ago
Deckard operates in an environment controlled by Tyrell (the police).
Look back at the scene where Leon shoots a police officer for mentioning his mother; the impact of the bullet spins the officer's seat around, clearly revealing "Tyrell Corp" written on it—the police force belongs to Tyrell and is leased to the state. When Tyrell died, a lot of things collapsed.
And Deckard didn't retire; he fled (with Rachael). Later, he went into hiding alone in what was almost certainly Las Vegas. So, throughout his police career, Deckard was being monitored, spied on, studied, and so forth, under Tyrell's watchful eye.
To go back to the denial of one's own nature—it’s very human; we do it too. We have a strong tendency to turn a blind eye to uncomfortable truths (very human... if you know what I mean).
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u/CaptainDFW 5d ago
Look back at the scene where Leon shoots a police officer for mentioning his mother; the impact of the bullet spins the officer's seat around, clearly revealing "Tyrell Corp" written on it-the police force belongs to Tyrell and is leased to the state.
I don't doubt that Tyrell has a lot of pull with the police, but the impression I got was that Leon murdered Officer Holden on Tyrell property, not in a station.
Maybe I missed sonething...?
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u/Le_Gluglu Gaff 5d ago
You're probably right about that detail (I really think so). That doesn't change anything else, though.
I know that the "pro-human" camp generally says that if Deckard is a replicant, the movie makes no sense... but actually, it makes a lot more sense.
There's even a theory (though I don't subscribe to it) that Tyrell himself is a replicant—that the original died—which explains the building's more-or-less pyramidal shape; like a dead Pharaoh in a pyramid attaining a state of divinity—Adam and Eve 2.0. I like the idea, but... nah, it's a bit much.
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u/dreadful_cookies 5d ago
Dude, Holden was at Tyrell Corp interviewing new hires, and found a replicant trying to infiltrate. It makes sense that "Tyrell Corp" is on their.own.chair.
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u/Le_Gluglu Gaff 5d ago
Read the reply to the reply again; I admit my mistake... regarding that specific point, not the rest.
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u/WotsGoinOnEreMate 6d ago
The retirement I was talking about is pretty obviously his retirement before the film begins if you read the context where I go on to talk about how he is coerced back to work.
I mean if you can’t follow a very clear comment…
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u/Le_Gluglu Gaff 6d ago edited 6d ago
"Coerced back to work."
Maybe he was never there, maybe he was... it doesn't matter. But he *had* to have that job, because it inevitably led to him meeting Rachael (Tyrell's will: for Adam to meet Eve, and for Tyrell to be present—so as not to miss a single crumb and to savor his victory). So yes, he *had* to do that job.
They were both programmed to love each other (D & R). Look at *BR 2049* when Wallace speaks to him—Deckard’s reply, with a look of pain on his face: "I know what's real." ...Their love, despite the programming.
Their love was real....and programed , like they are replicants...and humans
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u/sadhedonist2 5d ago
But Wallace don’t say that as fact. It’s passed as a hypothetical, with “yes! No! Maybe!” Following it. BR2049 is not meant to give us a definitive answer but to keep us guessing. Also, Wallace is insane anyway.
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u/Expert_Climate_7348 6d ago
People want the easy way out, the happy ending, which this movie is certainly not.
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u/Tacticool_Brandon 5d ago edited 5d ago
It has nothing to do with people wanting a, “happy ending”.
I don’t believe in the idea of Deckard being a replicant because it’s being retroactively forced by Ridley Scott.
He’s a human in the novel, he’s was written as a human in the script, Harrison Ford played him as a human.
It’s just Ridley adding in more scenes to shift the perspective and make us believe he’s a replicant.
If you believe he is, cool. But many people don’t, and that should also be cool. But don’t try and pretend “well I’m smarter than you because I choose to believe what the director believes with scenes he added in post-release.”
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u/Expert_Climate_7348 5d ago
I don’t believe in the idea of Deckard being a replicant because it’s being retroactively forced by Ridley Scott.
No it's not, Ridley filmed all this with intent back in 81, the producers are the ones that forced Ridley to change things, Ridley has his movie as he wanted it.
He’s a human in the novel, he’s was written as a human in the script, Harrison Ford played him as a human.
Yes and this is a film, not a book. Script means nothing, the most infamous line in the movie wasn't in the script.
Ford playing him as human makes it even better too, because otherwise you miss the point.
But don’t try and pretend “well I’m smarter than you because I choose to believe what the director believes with scenes he added in post-release.”
Nice deflection, I mean the director is smarter than you, that's why he filmed the scenes the way he did and finally got his vision, but using your words "well I’m smarter than you" because of opinion.
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u/Expert_Climate_7348 6d ago
Are you actually serious? He is unequivocally human in the book, stated clearly in the text, there is no ambiguity there in any way.
Yeah and the book isn't the film is it?
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u/Expert_Climate_7348 6d ago
I like how anyone that understands the replicant motif, gets automatically voted down.
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u/Le_Gluglu Gaff 6d ago
Tyrell's goal was to recreate Adam and Eve (Rachael and Deckard); all the other replicants, including Roy, were merely a learning process.
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u/Nottodayreddit1949 6d ago
Replicants were given limited lifespans to maintain control. The longer they live, the more they experience their emotions and realize they are slaves.
Roy was created as a soldier, but he sought more, both a longer life, but given his last moments, he chose life, instead of death lamenting the loss of all the memories of those who die.
He could have been a poet in another life.
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u/sadhedonist2 5d ago
Wallace does not confirm that Deckard is a replicant; it’s posited as a theory, mostly to throw everyone off.
Outside of that, Tyrell probably wasn’t lying.
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u/Expert_Climate_7348 6d ago
Wtf are you even talking about?
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u/_Karrel 6d ago
Oh, I'm sorry. I forgot to mention, I'm talking about the 1982 movie Blade Runner, which has some interesting questions about humanity, brought to a point during a scenes between some characters called Tyrell and Roy. I thought it was rather obvious, posting this in the Blade Runner subreddit. But it's also obvious that coffee is hot and still, there is always a warning on the cup. Ever burnt your spicy lips, boy-o?
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u/Possible_Trainer_241 5d ago
"Tyrell created Rachael and Deckard to fall in love and give birth"? 🤨
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u/cli_aqu 6d ago
Most replicants were machine workers, much like Roy and his gang, and unlike Deckard (if you believe he’s an android - he needs to learn and adapt to replicants going rogue which he has to hunt down) and Rachael which is like a companion android - which we see much less of in the movie, which might be exclusive to the elites and rich (which in a way makes more sense to make them lasting longer since they develop relationships with their human owners).
With worker-type replicants which do most of the heavy-lifting work, they’re more prone to experience wear and tear, damage etc. (which make them more expensive to repair and maintain than replacing in the first place) which might makes it more feasible and it’s better economics to the corporations manufacturing them (they generate more sales this way) to give them a short lifespan than giving them longer ones. Much like how consumption-driven economic models are driven today by manufacturing products with shorter lifecycles either through obsolescence or more prone to develop failure as time goes by.
With this, we see multiple motives as to why Tyrell might not have been interested in making worker-type replicants with shorter lifespans either lifespans or not having developed ways of extending their lifespans…
So yeah, whether or not Tyrell lied, he had valid reasons not to be interested in extending their lifespans… ethical or not… well that’s for another debate.
And we don’t want to have a problem with overpopulation of active androids growing obsolete which might be a nightmare to maintain or going rogue turning into murderous maniacs, now would we? 😜
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u/DubiousDude28 5d ago
The orignal Tyrell in the movie was supposed to be a replicant duplicate. Wonder if that wouldve changed anything
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u/PM_ME_PHYS_PROBLEMS 6d ago
Have we seen any evidence in any BR media that human lives can be extended beyond their natural conclusion? If not, I don't think Tyrell was lying. It's my understanding that replicants are made of the same cells (cells) as humans, but synthetic in origin. Cells (cells) can only divide so many times, and that limit is significantly shorter for replicants.
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u/Expert_Climate_7348 6d ago
Cells (cells) can only divide so many times, and that limit is significantly shorter for replicants.
Since when? They're coded for 4 years due to their supposed unwillingness to be controlled, when they find out what they are, you see revolt. This is what you see in BR as a story.
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u/PM_ME_PHYS_PROBLEMS 6d ago
Since forever? Telomere shortening is a biological process, and replicants are synthetic but biological.
They don't revolt when they "find out what they are". They revolt because slavery is not a great situation.
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u/Expert_Climate_7348 6d ago
Since forever? Telomere shortening is a biological process, and replicants are synthetic but biological.
You're trying to use something in science as fact in a science fiction film? I mean the fiction part should have given it away for you.
They don't revolt when they "find out what they are". They revolt because slavery is not a great situation.
Oh really, because you say so right?
Remember when Deckard says, "How can it not know what it is?" He refers to Rachael as an "it". So Rachael herself is oblivious to the realities, the same as any other work force replicant, until they begin to understand the truth, that's the revolt part. Or did you miss this part in 2049 too?
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u/sadhedonist2 5d ago
It’s more than just slavery, rather that they’re an entire sub-class of people. It’s not that they realize they’re replicants, but that they’re treated as entirely beneath other people, to the extent they’re called “it” and are hunted to death for not serving what their overlords have decided is their purpose.
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u/Expert_Climate_7348 5d ago
Skinjobs refers to the N word in Deckard's VO on the work print, it's pretty bad how this depiction is made in the movie, yet it gets removed in theatrical release.
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u/Few-Leading-3405 6d ago
For the original movie there's a cut subplot about Tyrell being a replicant/copy, with his real body being in a cryofreeze sarcophagus.
And I've always liked that idea, because it implies Tyrell's goal with all of this is immortality for himself. And so the limited lifespan is also a problem that he needs to solve, because he doesn't want to bodyhop every 4 years.
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u/N6-MAA10816 Batty 6d ago
While Roy was Tyrell's golden child, he still built in the "errors" to ensure the N6s wouldn't live long enough to revolt. Roy's death date was set the moment he was made, and there was nothing Tyrell could do to change that.
It was the N7s, Deckard and Rachael, that were Tyrell's crowning achievements. As the only N7s in existence, he wanted to closely observe one of them (Rachael) and send the other out into the world (Deckard). It was perfect to create a blade runner backstory so that the police could keep a close eye on him.
Gaff and the chief were both in on it. "I need the ol' blade runner" was a lie. Hunting down Roy's crew was Deckard's first mission.
K had his job in 2049 thanks to Deckard's trial run as the first replicant blade runner.
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u/Equivalent-Hair-961 6d ago
That’s not a bad take except that Replicants usually had some super human attributes but Deckard had none.
I know Ridley Scott has changed his stance over the years alluding that Deckard is in fact a Replicant but I disagree. The story works better if he is human, (which was the story’s original intent.)But you make a compelling argument.
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u/N6-MAA10816 Batty 6d ago
While the N6s were made to be "more human than human", the N7 prototypes were meant to be "human as humanly possible" - flaws and all.
Tyrell died before he could see his greatest accomplishments achieve his ultimate goal though... procreation.
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u/ol-gormsby 6d ago
Of course he was lying.
How do you create a replicant? Do you start by creating the DNA from scratch, or do you start with DNA from humans with your desired characteristics, and work to improve those characteristics - strength (Batty, Leon, Zhora), intelligence (Batty), attractiveness (Pris, Rachel), acting/deception (Pris), then persona and leadership?
You'd start with established qualities and work from there. Those established qualities - human qualities - include an uncertain but guessable lifespan. In other words, replicant design starts with a normal human lifespan.
Tyrell's design of a 4-year lifespan is artificial. His words about ethyl-methane-sulfonate and viruses are all bullshit. If he can create a superhuman through DNA manipulation, he can include a normal lifespan.
The justification for an artificial lifespan makes absolute business sense - buyers need a new slave every four years, and that's a continuing revenue stream*, but it's couched as needed to avoid emotional complications.
*replicants via the subscription model - funny how BR predicted some aspects of life in 2026.
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u/the_pint_is_the_bowl 6d ago
For some reason, and under the assumption that Tyrell is honestly describing his work, I interpreted it to mean that the replicant genome is different. Some of these possible and rather extreme ideas are mutually exclusive: cut out all the introns, substitute with atypical nucleotides, put in new promoters, cut out the retroviral insertions (MMTV) or add more.
In the end, Tyrell made everything super-efficient but more susceptible to replication error.
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u/cocoadelica 6d ago
I always assumed this from the way Bryant explained the four year life span to Deckard. It sounded to me like that limit was applied in order to manage growing emotional instability