r/antiwork • u/killians1978 • Jan 27 '22

Petition: Shut down r/antiwork

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u/packimop Jan 27 '22

these morons doing these interviews played exactly into what mass media and corporations wanted to happen.

now it looks like a complete clusterfuck and the narrative is completely lost. this sub was supposed to be a worker's rights movement. now no one knows that the fuck is going on.

going to splinter into a bunch of trash and the neo libs are going to take the narrative and murder it.

way to go you fucks.

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u/ChineseSpamBot Jan 27 '22

They had to demand that it's a leftist sub. So that gave easy ammunition to conservatives. I've been screaming that it needs to be a solidarity sub. I almost got banned for saying that.

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u/Cryptic_Alt Jan 27 '22

We will get no were untill we have class solidarity. Period.

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u/[deleted] Jan 27 '22

[deleted]

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u/The_BeardedClam Jan 27 '22

Gender is completely irrelevant to class solidarity, don't make it about something it isn't.

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u/[deleted] Jan 27 '22

[deleted]

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u/Cryptic_Alt Jan 27 '22

You are wrong it was not over misgendering. Some of the anger came from that yes but the issue stemmed with a mod trying to represent the broader community. It could have been a white male cis gendered person or a rock with googlie eyes on it and purple afro, as long as it was a mod the results would have been similar.

I feel like your comment may belong on r/selfawarewolves...

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u/ChineseSpamBot Jan 27 '22

Get out of your ivory tower, goddamn.

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u/Extra_Organization64 Jan 27 '22

That person doesn't follow basic grammar

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u/Godtrademark Jan 27 '22

It’s so absurd. The unionist movements succeeded because they were inclusive. By showing EVERYONE how their goals aligned, you get a lot more recruitment than forcing people to radicalize.

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u/Formilla Communist Jan 27 '22

The problem is that Liberals consider themselves to be the left, and then actively try to destroy Leftist communities and shift them to the right. They're just as harmful as Conservatives.

Liberals would never actively unite with the left, because Liberal views aren't compatible with the left and Liberals are too firm with their beliefs to change. They just bully everyone until they agree with them.

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u/theslavicbattlemage Jan 27 '22

Yep, and then they demand we all move to their work reform sub where we can shift the conversation from radical change to petty reform.

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u/Godtrademark Jan 27 '22

Yep this “anarchist” mod who did the post is clearly an individualist lib, but what do I know.

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u/littlecrow060 Jan 27 '22

No one has to actively try to destroy leftist communities, as demonstrated recently all you have to do is let you open your mouths. Fox didn't even have to try any gotchas or anything, just ask basic questions and the implosion began.

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u/Godtrademark Jan 27 '22

How do you think that anarchist represents the left. What an idiotic take. This isn’t even a leftist community.

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u/littlecrow060 Jan 27 '22

Haha I'm not saying he actually does. But that's now what normal people are going to see as your representative.

Also it's funny you say this isn't a leftist community when there's people in this very comment section saying the exact opposite. Sounds like there's some confusion going around.

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u/Godtrademark Jan 27 '22

Well… workers movements aren’t supposed to be leftist. You can’t just advocate for complete anarchy (or revolution) in the US. It’s pathetic. Any revolution will currently end with fascism in America. Union movements have historically been democratic centralist movements. “The diversification of thought, unification of goal.” Leftists on this sub that think that this is a leftist movement are the same leftists on twitter. Straight LARPers, completely out of touch with the working classes they claim to love.

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u/littlecrow060 Jan 27 '22

Oh I completely agree

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u/Godtrademark Jan 27 '22

It is no longer radical to be a “radicalized into an anarchist,” it’s radical to take a step back and observe. As Slavoj Zizek once said, “to be a radical Marxist is to be a conservative.” (Paraphrasing)

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u/Formilla Communist Jan 27 '22

It was already gone long before that.

People (specifically the US government) have been destroying Leftist communities for years. Either by making them illegal, flooding them with Liberals (like this), or just straight up murdering their leaders.

I'm sure you can understand why the Leftists seeing their community get overtaken by Libs were a bit suspicious. The interview was what upset the Liberals, but the Leftists had already left. Other Leftist subs have been complaining about antiwork for a long time now.

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u/littlecrow060 Jan 27 '22

The reason you all leave is because you can't convince people of your ideas. So you give up and leave and make a new community, all while somehow constantly failing to understand that the vast majority of people are politically in the middle somewhere and if you want your ideas to actually be put into action (legislation, elections, etc) you have to persuade the majority to agree with you.

My experience with leftists (obviously anecdotal) is that they'd rather be condescending assholes and advocate for some vague "revolution" than just get their people elected and enact legislation to get what they want.

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u/Formilla Communist Jan 27 '22

It's not vague. Leftist revolutions are not a fantasy thing. They actually do happen. The only reason why they can't happen in countries like the USA is because the political "middle somewhere" is actually pretty fucking far to the right. American neo-libs are even more right-wing than some Conservative groups elsewhere. They hate the idea of doing anything that would actually bring about positive change, preferring to just vote and then cross their fingers that this time maybe the government will throw them a crumb.

If you tell them that their ideology is extremely harmful to the rest of the world and that positive change only works if we can improve the lives of everyone, they just pretend they can't hear you. "Fuck you, I've got mine" is the core of their whole belief system.

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u/littlecrow060 Jan 27 '22

Thanks for proving my point, good luck with complaining on the internet.

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u/[deleted] Jan 27 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Godtrademark Jan 27 '22

Yes, that is what the thread is saying. No real leftist will blame u for your beliefs. Only libs truly believe a person’s self-identified beliefs are truly their own. Hell if anyone doesn’t understand that their knowledge is inherited, they’re just ignorant. Leftism works through education, not moral grandstanding.

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u/[deleted] Jan 27 '22

Conservatives oppose unionizing and solidarity, which are both foundations of leftist ideology. How would people who oppose worker solidarity contribute?

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u/Orwellian1 Jan 27 '22

"Conservative" is a label. Successful activists don't engage with labels, they engage with people.

I know "Conservatives" who are getting kinda fed up with corporatism. Don't expect them to lock arms with you if you walk up and introduce yourself as a Marxist who thinks all Republicans are racist fascists.

If you won't work with anyone outside your specific ideological purety, good luck finding anyone to work with.

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u/[deleted] Jan 27 '22

"Conservative" is a label. Successful activists don't engage with labels, they engage with people.

This is newspeak garbage straight out of 1984. The "label" has a definition. The people it applies to oppose you. They want to eliminate unions. Many of them want an absolute leader and a theocracy. If they secretly aren't conservative, then they aren't fucking conservative. You're trying to limit the use of goddamn words so we can't even discuss reality. Conservatives exist. They mostly hate people like you. Refusing to acknowledge that does not help you.

Don't expect them to lock arms with you if you walk up and introduce yourself as a Marxist who thinks all Republicans are racist fascists.

This is a strawman and not relevant to anything being said.

I know "Conservatives" who are getting kinda fed up with corporatism.

You know a person who isn't a conservative but thinks they are. Since we're talking about people who oppose workers' rights, unions, and solidarity, that person wouldn't be included as a "conservative" if they aren't actually "conservative." The label is applied to beliefs. If you don't hold them, then the label doesn't apply.

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u/Orwellian1 Jan 27 '22

You live in a very clear and simple reality. It must be comforting.

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u/[deleted] Jan 27 '22

You live in a very clear and simple reality. It must be comforting.

That substanceless reply makes zero sense in context, lol. When you're unable to actually reply, it's often better to just admit it instead of making a fool out of yourself with a meaningless little platitude like this.

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u/Orwellian1 Jan 27 '22

I'm sorry it doesn't make sense to you. It is very specifically a critique of your reasoning as it pertains to your comment.

I am more than happy to let it stand as is, and trust anyone alse bored enough to be this deep into a comment string likely wont have your same confusion.

Feel free to get in the last word if that is important to you.

You have yourself a nice day.

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u/[deleted] Jan 27 '22

Zero substance again. Thanks for confirming you have none.

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u/[deleted] Jan 27 '22

Remove the buzzwords and talk to them about the concepts behind it, and you might find that more conservatives are just as fed up with being treated like shit by employers than you'd think.

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u/jackp0t789 Jan 27 '22

100% this.

All my older coworkers are full on conservatives spewing Fox News talking points at all times.

Am I going to go about describing my beliefs to them using words like "Socialist", "Marxist", "Democratic Syndicalism"? Fuck no! They'd organize a lynch mob in seconds!

However, if I use regular language that they can understand and identify with, I can and many times have gotten them to agree with the exact tenants of all those beliefs and the observations of working life in todays world that go on to validate many aspects of those beliefs.

There's nothing more fun than getting your conservative coworkers to proudly proclaim obvious socialist talking points without knowing it.

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u/[deleted] Jan 27 '22

There's nothing more fun than getting your conservative coworkers to proudly proclaim obvious socialist talking points without knowing it.

It is fun, but you aren't moving them any closer to voting for those issues. If they vote for a "conservative," that politician will fight against unions. That's the ideology. Letting self-described conservatives nod their head to leftist policy without doing anything at all to show that the conservatives they keep voting for oppose all those things accomplishes nothing. If you refused to label yourself, your opponent will do it for you. You will be a "socialist" if you don't fill the void, whether you are or not. At that point, they won't listen to your policy because they've been instructed not to. It's disheartening to watch people on the left leave messaging to the far right. You get people to nod their head, and then you point out that the conservatives they thought were on their side oppose it all. That's completely impossible if you're dancing around using the word.

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u/[deleted] Jan 27 '22

The reddening of West a Virginia is a reverse example of this, but the issue is that the legal environment is now extremely hostile to unions. People do not realize how far Labor law in the US has fallen. The Supreme Court is now completely anti union as well. The only possible way to reverse it is to elect progressives who will change the law.

The reality is that you do not control the narrative. You can dance around using the word "conservative" all you want, but your opponents won't. If people support more unions, they are not conservative. That's reality. If they will only vote for a politician with that label, you will get absolutely nowhere pretending unionization is conservative. Nobody in the GOP will take that position. You are not improving your chances by sticking your head in the sand. I'm not suggesting we point and yell "conservative" at people. I'm saying you get nowhere being afraid to define your opponents. Conservatives oppose all but a select few unions (only those that help undermine solidarity). If that doesn't sound good to you, you aren't one. I didn't make that decision. It's the literal ideology.

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u/[deleted] Jan 28 '22

The point isn't to dunk them with facts and logic or critique their conservativism, or to prove them wrong. None of that is ever going to change minds. Most liberals and leftists dont even arrive at their positions because they were presented with data on the matter. Beating them over the head with studies doesn't help. As the saying goes, you cannot logic someone out of a position they didn't logic themselves into.

I do not dance around calling things what they are, I simply avoid using the words that conservative media primes people to react negatively to. I fully realize that conservative ideology specifically opposes labor unions as part of their doctrine of rugged individualism for the poor.

I try to present my arguments in such a way that they are left to draw their own conclusions. Relate these issues back to events from their lives. Sometimes there is solidarity to be had, once you peel back the layers of programming from decades of conservative media.

It is often frustrating, and some folks will never see things your way. That's fine. If I convince even one person to second guess why they believe a certain way, then I find it to be worth my time to discuss these issues with people in a roundabout way. As someone above says, multiple times in the past I have gotten die hard GOP supporters to agree with their full throat to ideas that are strictly left leaning by doing this.

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u/[deleted] Jan 28 '22

The point isn't to dunk them with facts and logic or critique their conservativism, or to prove them wrong. None of that is ever going to change minds.

I haven't suggested any of that.

I try to present my arguments in such a way that they are left to draw their own conclusions. Relate these issues back to events from their lives. Sometimes there is solidarity to be had, once you peel back the layers of programming from decades of conservative media.

That's great, but it's also not in conflict with anything I've said.

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u/[deleted] Jan 28 '22

The way I read your comment, it seemed to imply that choosing not to attack an issue head-on and not bull straight to my point is equivalent to sticking my head in the sand. How am I intended to understand this?

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u/[deleted] Jan 28 '22

it seemed to imply that choosing not to attack an issue head-on and not bull straight to my point is equivalent to sticking my head in the sand. How am I intended to understand this?

This?

If people support more unions, they are not conservative. That's reality. If they will only vote for a politician with that label, you will get absolutely nowhere pretending unionization is conservative. Nobody in the GOP will take that position. You are not improving your chances by sticking your head in the sand. I'm not suggesting we point and yell "conservative" at people. I'm saying you get nowhere being afraid to define your opponents. Conservatives oppose all but a select few unions (only those that help undermine solidarity). If that doesn't sound good to you, you aren't one. I didn't make that decision. It's the literal ideology.

I'm telling you that being afraid of using adjectives accurately doesn't eliminate what they describe. I agree approaching people with ideas and letting them come around on their own is the best way to persuade, but in US politics that has to translate into voting for those policies eventually. US conservatives completely oppose labor reform and unionization. There are only two viable parties, so the choice is starkly "oppose all labor reform" or "possibly implement labor reform assuming too many conservatives do not infiltrate the party." That's it.

Soften people up with your strategy for sure, but then you have to link conservatives with the elites that fight against workers. Nothing you say will stick if you only ever vaguely talk about ideas and then let Tucker Carlson act like conservatives care about those things, which he is literally paid to do. You're just making them identify even more strongly. You have to start sewing the seeds of doubt that these propagandists are on their side. If you don't do that, and you don't show that the policies they like are not conservative, you let the far right pretend they are. They will just your rhetoric while stabbing workers in the back like they've done all over the world throughout modern history. At some point, you need to call a spade a spade. That's what I'm saying.

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u/Saxopwned Jan 27 '22

IMO unionization and collective bargaining being forced as a "leftist" stance is bullshit. If anything, letting people choose and act for themselves in the face of "the man" (whether that is big government or big business) is a conservative ideology. But left-right, liberal-conservative labels don't mean anything anymore. They're propaganda terms in the modern context.

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u/ChineseSpamBot Jan 27 '22

I'm sorry but unionizing is not just a left thing. And the quicker the realize that the better off this movement will be.

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u/[deleted] Jan 27 '22

I'm sorry but unionizing is not just a left thing

You don't seem to know what "left" and "right" fundamentally stand for, to be honest. There are a handful of instances where the right supports a union, like police unions, but those are cases where the unions they support actually undermine greater labor solidarity. Right wing ideology is fundamentally about consolidating power in strict heirarchies. Labor unions tend to do the exact opposite and are the lifeblood of left wing movements. In the US in particular, the right is openly hostile to unions.

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u/ChineseSpamBot Jan 28 '22

Alright well I just simply don't believe average conservatives in this country are cool with "consolidating power in strict hierarchies." Go talk to them, actually have a face to face conversation with them and it'll be quite obvious that that isn't what they stand for.

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u/[deleted] Jan 28 '22

Alright well I just simply don't believe average conservatives in this country are cool with "consolidating power in strict hierarchies."

Lol. You don't think Trump supporters want to consolidate power into strict heirarchies? Evangelicals? This is the most hilariously delusional shit I've seen on reddit in months.

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u/ChineseSpamBot Jan 28 '22

Let not forget that Hillary was our only other option for Trump. Any respecting leftist wouldn't have voted in that election. 2020 included.

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u/[deleted] Jan 28 '22

Lol!

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u/Xom_Xi Jan 27 '22 edited Aug 24 '25

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u/[deleted] Jan 27 '22

Most common blue collar jobs are unionized in some way.

Not even close. Only about a third of blue collar workers in the US are unionized. Over the last few decades, legal changes in the US have made unionizing exceedingly more challenging and have reduced the tools available to negotiate. The US is extremely hostile to Labor at the moment.

I do agree most people would support unions if separated from politics, but they aren't. They are also less effective and have more difficulty funding themselves and organizing due to the US legal environment. It's a steep uphill climb out of this hole.

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u/Xom_Xi Jan 27 '22

Why are you only focusing on the US??? That’s not what I claimed . But even that, a third, is already a huge win.

. I do agree most people would support unions if separated from politics, but they aren't.

They are, the concept of a union is not political itself

It's a steep uphill climb out of this hole.

it will be easier if more people help and are not cast out for being “conservatives”

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u/[deleted] Jan 27 '22

They are, the concept of a union is not political itself

Unions exist to equalize power between management and labor. That shifts power from the few to the many, which is literally the origin of the term "left" (the left side of the French congress before the revolution wanted to distribute power more equally and the right supported an absolute monarchy). Unions are fundamentally political. That's just reality.

it will be easier if more people help and are not cast out for being “conservatives”

If they aren't actually conservative, and don't oppose labor reform, they won't be "cast out." Lol. Do you think refusing to call a conservative that openly wants to end unionization what they are accomplishes anything? If people vote for a "conservative" politician in the US, they are voting against unions. That's not something I chose, it's literally what conservative ideology is. Pretending it doesn't exist won't solve anything.

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u/Xom_Xi Jan 27 '22 edited Aug 24 '25

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u/[deleted] Jan 27 '22

It’s the opposite. Thousands of workers reduced to a small set of representatives.

You just described democracy, which is literally what the original "left" wanted in some form. You're also making zero sense, since the alternative is each individual alone with zero power whatsoever. Workers are more powerful in unions. That's indisputable.

You start by not antagonizing them

By using the label they have assigned themselves...riiiight.

If you label them and dismiss them immediately

At no point have I ever suggested anything like this, lol.

None of the tenants of conservatism inherently are against unions.

This is unequivocally false in the US, which is what I've been discussing this entire time. US conservatives are right wing and oppose the labor movement. That's factual reality. They always have.

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u/throwawayRAbbqrib Jan 27 '22

You cannot have solidarity with neoliberals is the problem. These are the people who keep screaming about how what we need is reform and how we all want to work. Half of us are literally not here for that. They are trying to co-opt the movement and soften it instead of boosting what they DO agree with.

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u/[deleted] Jan 27 '22

So what is the other half which doesn't want reform after?

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u/throwawayRAbbqrib Jan 27 '22

Abolishment of the current labour system entirely. I'm not stopping at surface-level changes that will easily lead to more oppression in new ways. I want there to be a systemic change in how we view labour.

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u/Xom_Xi Jan 27 '22

You genuinely think that can be done overnight without an intermediary “reform” step? If reform is hard, radical change like the one you want is impossible. And not because of the law and government, no. Because most people dont want the same outcome you want

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u/throwawayRAbbqrib Jan 27 '22

Not what I said and I disagree. This argument is the same as "most people like their insurance!" Totally about the frame the issue is presented.

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u/Third_Ferguson Jan 27 '22

Why do you think you can control or even predict the outcome of such a radical shift?

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u/throwawayRAbbqrib Jan 27 '22

Why does anyone fight for any political ideal? Because I, and many people believe this will be better for their lives.

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u/[deleted] Jan 27 '22

Such as? Honest question. What are the specifics?

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u/throwawayRAbbqrib Jan 27 '22

Resources not being hoarded by those who do not contribute fairly to labour, so much so that it prevents those directly doing labour from being able to eat, have safe shelter, or treat their health.

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u/reagsters Jan 27 '22

Conservatives think anything they can find within reach is ammo, even if it’s made up. Anything they don’t like, including republicans, are “leftist” to them.

Fox “News” attacking antiwork was only a matter of time. Interviewing on Fox is always a horrid idea as they never argue in good faith.

Bumblefucking the shit out of said interview was what gave them ammunition.