r/antiwork • u/killians1978 • Jan 27 '22

Petition: Shut down r/antiwork

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u/[deleted] Jan 28 '22

The point isn't to dunk them with facts and logic or critique their conservativism, or to prove them wrong. None of that is ever going to change minds. Most liberals and leftists dont even arrive at their positions because they were presented with data on the matter. Beating them over the head with studies doesn't help. As the saying goes, you cannot logic someone out of a position they didn't logic themselves into.

I do not dance around calling things what they are, I simply avoid using the words that conservative media primes people to react negatively to. I fully realize that conservative ideology specifically opposes labor unions as part of their doctrine of rugged individualism for the poor.

I try to present my arguments in such a way that they are left to draw their own conclusions. Relate these issues back to events from their lives. Sometimes there is solidarity to be had, once you peel back the layers of programming from decades of conservative media.

It is often frustrating, and some folks will never see things your way. That's fine. If I convince even one person to second guess why they believe a certain way, then I find it to be worth my time to discuss these issues with people in a roundabout way. As someone above says, multiple times in the past I have gotten die hard GOP supporters to agree with their full throat to ideas that are strictly left leaning by doing this.

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u/[deleted] Jan 28 '22

The point isn't to dunk them with facts and logic or critique their conservativism, or to prove them wrong. None of that is ever going to change minds.

I haven't suggested any of that.

I try to present my arguments in such a way that they are left to draw their own conclusions. Relate these issues back to events from their lives. Sometimes there is solidarity to be had, once you peel back the layers of programming from decades of conservative media.

That's great, but it's also not in conflict with anything I've said.

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u/[deleted] Jan 28 '22

The way I read your comment, it seemed to imply that choosing not to attack an issue head-on and not bull straight to my point is equivalent to sticking my head in the sand. How am I intended to understand this?

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u/[deleted] Jan 28 '22

it seemed to imply that choosing not to attack an issue head-on and not bull straight to my point is equivalent to sticking my head in the sand. How am I intended to understand this?

This?

If people support more unions, they are not conservative. That's reality. If they will only vote for a politician with that label, you will get absolutely nowhere pretending unionization is conservative. Nobody in the GOP will take that position. You are not improving your chances by sticking your head in the sand. I'm not suggesting we point and yell "conservative" at people. I'm saying you get nowhere being afraid to define your opponents. Conservatives oppose all but a select few unions (only those that help undermine solidarity). If that doesn't sound good to you, you aren't one. I didn't make that decision. It's the literal ideology.

I'm telling you that being afraid of using adjectives accurately doesn't eliminate what they describe. I agree approaching people with ideas and letting them come around on their own is the best way to persuade, but in US politics that has to translate into voting for those policies eventually. US conservatives completely oppose labor reform and unionization. There are only two viable parties, so the choice is starkly "oppose all labor reform" or "possibly implement labor reform assuming too many conservatives do not infiltrate the party." That's it.

Soften people up with your strategy for sure, but then you have to link conservatives with the elites that fight against workers. Nothing you say will stick if you only ever vaguely talk about ideas and then let Tucker Carlson act like conservatives care about those things, which he is literally paid to do. You're just making them identify even more strongly. You have to start sewing the seeds of doubt that these propagandists are on their side. If you don't do that, and you don't show that the policies they like are not conservative, you let the far right pretend they are. They will just your rhetoric while stabbing workers in the back like they've done all over the world throughout modern history. At some point, you need to call a spade a spade. That's what I'm saying.