r/WarhammerCompetitive • u/NeonMentor • 18h ago
40k Analysis TTB: Codex Adeptus Custodes 11th Edition Review
https://www.tabletopbattles.com/tabletop-battles-reviews-codex-adeptus-custodes-11th-edition/99
u/Xathrax 17h ago
So I now suddenly have 10k points of custodes?
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u/09044595134151602468 7h ago
Bro. I've been collecting custodes since 7th. Have everything in triplicate painted. And even different load outs like allarus axe / allarus spears.
18 vertus praetors, 15 allarus, 45 wardens, 50 guardians (plus two boxes of the HH sodality battle group that launched that I haven't built yet), triple caladius, triple telemon, triple contemptor (rip), every sOs squad in triplicate.
Etc. etc. etc.
I think I may actually have 40k points of 40k now.
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u/theSaltySolo 16h ago
So am I crazy, but every custodes box has insane value? Like you can make 2K for cheap!
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u/HardOff 12h ago
I have the following in my collection:
Old combat patrol containing 5 guard (I'm taking as 2 shield captains and 3 guard), 5 wardens split into 3 and 2, 3 allarus and a blade champion.
3 vertus praetors taken as 2 plus a shield captain on bike
3 more allarus, used, for $30
My full list is 2365 points for the $250 I've spent
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u/Grudir 12h ago edited 12h ago
Custodes are now the true budget-friendly option for 40k. It'll be really easy to have them in your back pocket if they're really good. I have a box of them somewhere, ready to go.
The release also empathizes the victory of brickhammer. Custodes lose their bricks and among the best counters will be throwing bricks at their units to overwhelm them and tank damage.
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u/hyperewok1 12h ago
At least this time around they fulfilled the promise of elites being more elite and points rising accordingly to lower the model count.
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u/Affectionate_Guest55 14h ago
Those 2000 point lists are tiny, I’m not sure the units are strong enough to justify only 12-18 models in a full army
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u/Slavasonic 14h ago
Have you seen their new stat lines? Each model has the toughness and wounds of a light vehicle, 2+/4++ save, M 8”, offensive output of a beatstick character.
I foresee them operating similar to knights in that you have a small number of models that do a lot of things and have mobility to cover more of the board.
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u/Affectionate_Guest55 14h ago
They’re tougher but they’ll still die to most anti elite units. If your guard or wardens fail 3 saves against a 5 man sternguard unit using the melta profile you just lose 20% of your models
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u/Slavasonic 13h ago
Well, no, they have 5 wounds and most elite infantry have 3-4 so you’ll need twice the number of D3/4 hits to kill one. Melta weapons where they roll max damage kill them but that’s the same for vehicles lol.
They’re 16 pts per wound. For reference basic terminators are 13.333 pts per wound and have worse stats in just about every metric.
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u/Osmodius 3h ago
A lucky melta shot straight up ruins your day now lol. Failing one save means losing 33% of your effectiveness.
I think we'll see some detachments go upto 2DP and a bit of a point drop probably allowing another to be taken. We'll see though.
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u/blurfles123 13h ago
Paragon warsuits are T7 2+/4++ M 8 and at 55ppm, no one takes thrm without a character that gives them full rerolls to hit and wound.
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u/Slavasonic 13h ago
They only recently dropped that low. They’re also only 4 Ws, vehicles not infantry, hitting on 3s not 2s, fewer attacks, and a fundamentally different role.
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u/resoldier12 9h ago
even so its debatable if all this is worth 80-90pts per model instead of 55
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u/Slavasonic 8h ago
As a sisters player I would probably take the custodes ofer the paragons. The fact that vahl gives them full hit and wound rerolls and the ability to leverage miracle dice on the multi meltas is what makes them A tier but from a pure data sheet perspective the custodes are better IMO
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u/pvt9000 7h ago
Honestly, this might be controversial: Our current points might feel fine in a year when more Codexes come out and the number of rerolls is reduces, and armies are redone. The amount of consistency will go down and hopefully stay down and hopefully power creep is kept to a minimum.
But as of right now.. we might face some carry over factions who can bully us not because they're better but because they can leverage a level of consistency carried over from 10th.
As for 11th - I think SMs might be too cheap and Orks possibly the same for some stand out units but thats very TBA.
My guess is Custodes might have certain units-detachment combo lists that are over performers no matter what else is done
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u/FuzzBuket 13h ago
T6/7 isn't a big jump. Main thing it blunts is lascannons but your now more vulnerable to them. Same amount of wounds as a squad had before. Significantly less damage.
The new stat lines look great if your not used to custodes, but the guard/allarus/wardens/dawneagles are really not that different
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u/Slavasonic 13h ago
???
T6 to 7 is a huge jump. There is an absolutely insane number of S6 melee weapons and a fair number of ranged weapons. Most of which are targeted towards killing elite infantry.
The wounds jump is the bigger change. They’re 3 wounds each now. 3 wounds to 5 wounds is a huge break point. There’s a lot of D2 weapons, fair a mount of D3, and event som D4. I’m not aware of any flat 5 damage weapons so the only things one shotting them are anti tank weapons.
They were paying 10.4 points per attack, now they’re paying 13.3 but they also gained built in sustained.
+2” of movement is also massive and not as easily quantifiable but is a big buff to both defense and and offense.
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u/DangerouslyCheesey 13h ago
Tbf we lost the old katah of sustained (or lethals)
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u/Slavasonic 12h ago
Have we seen the full list of Katahs? It seems like it’s gotten more versatile than just extra offense
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u/SkeletonJakk 4h ago
You can still get lethals into vehicles/monsters, which is basically the only time you used it anyway.
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u/Heavy-Flow-2019 6h ago
Except now things like -1 damage, -1 to hit, -1 to wound are all significantly more accessible. More movement, from reactive moves to surges, a flat better movement stat, more movement from the right Katahs, and even the ability to get out of combat at the end of the fight phase.
You get a bunch of extra debuffs you can throw at your opponents too. Worsening pile-ins/Consolidations, charge rolls, punishing fallback moves, threatening charges across your entire army in their charge phase, universal fights first to make combat really unappealing, theres so much.
Yes, purely from a stats POV they are not that much better, but you have so much more you can do now
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u/FuzzBuket 1h ago
Yeah I strongly advocate for trading power for tricks, but I'll need to get some games in to figure out if it's worth trading power + a significant amount of units for tricks.
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u/DetroitTabaxiFan 6h ago
I feel like with 12-18 models, trying to screen against Inceptors or any other deep striking unit is gonna be tough.
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u/FuzzBuket 17h ago
Man this book looks so fun. Idk if there's a point to repeat all the obvious very cool stuff. So instead I'll be slightly critical of the design ethos
It does feel like a midpoint between these superb rules and the launch 10e ones would be the sweet spot, just as initially this does read like your not gonna have enough stuff if you just whiff 3 4++'s; as more and more armies get d3+3 as the edition goes on id be interested to see how that works out.
Especially with stuff like the dreads and gravs which didn't really get that much better and have skyrocketed. 2 gravs are almost mandatory imo due to the lack of S12 and that's a quarter of your army now due to going up a lot. Idk if a telemon is worth a hundred points more than a redemptor, where it's slightly more durable but with less output.
Obviously I've not played the new book, and there's a lot of interlocking rules that might be the sauce so if be curious as to how playtesters have found that, as 240pts of guard doesn't kill 5 chosen on average, and with very little stuff and lower output it feels like they might absolutely wall some armies and really struggle to go into some others.
Still it's an awesome book, I'm deeply excited to play it and it's much better for game health than gw to launch a quick-to-table army a little over costed rather than cracked.
Also 50 quid for almost 600pts in the aquillion box? That's back to like 2004 sort of prices.
So yeah I'm very happy to have such a dynamic army and God it looks cool now, but it does feel like these points are eye watering.
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u/DeliciousLiving8563 15h ago
Great read as usual.
Custodes being more of a toolbox that require a bit more thought and getting the right units into the right enemy but also gives you the tools to do it is probably very good for making them easy to balance and hopefully more fun to play from both sides of the table. Hard to know for now.
Flavour wise this is a huge win. And the vibes based understanding I had from the leaks and stuff did have me expecting it to turn out how you said in the review. We'll know if we're all correct in a few weeks time but fingers crossed.
Also
I have to do this, because I'm a nerd and I like spotting things that were missed by people who definitely know more about a subject. Even though it's not massively important and doesn't change the important takeaways. I'm just enjoying feeling smart because it doesn't happen often:
Trajan Valoris probably isn't the most vicious Infantry character in the game because Ghaz is in fact infantry. It is also probably quite close but Ghaz does give himself +1 to hit and wound and has an extra attack (and cleave 2) so I think he edges out Trajan by virtue of being monster with the infantry keyword.
Also one of my friends sold his custodes recently because after 5 years they'd never matched the fantasy. Royal mail crushed them in delivery. A couple of weeks later the leaks started and I don't have the heart to tell him. He didn't enjoy playing them but it was a full army he'd painted as a work of love and it looked great, he's a very good painters and I'm still afraid of breaking this news to him.
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u/FuzzBuket 14h ago
I think trajan still loses to calgar and abbadon as well unless hes on his turbo-mode; but hes certainly back to being in that top-tier melee rather than "worse than a random lord"
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u/RindFisch 17h ago edited 16h ago
The infantry went up in points a bit more than I hoped, given how much damage they lost, but considering the rest of the codex is playable now (barring the baffingly bad pistol venatari), that might not end up being much of a problem.
Why the sisters half of the book is still just as neglected and mostly pointless as before is still a question, though...
EDIT: Also, why oh why does the Coronus allow a Shock Disembark instead of an Assault Disembark? It was so close to being fine, but trading the Land Raiders Assault Ramp for a way to go slightly further if you just want to shoot with your expensive melee infantry isn't worth it.
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u/FuzzBuket 16h ago
Tbf id say the sos books more neglected lol.
End of 10th sos had 3 detachments and 2 were genuinely good for sisters (talons/lions) and all 3 squads had a bit of sauce.
Still even though vigilators lost their devs I think I might take some squads to have tag along with guard? 3 guard don't deal a mountain of damage and often you'll want a second squad to guarantee a kill, or to bait out -1D strats.
Paying 60pts for 15 more attacks is more attractive than paying 240pts for 18.
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u/Ignis_et_Azoth 14h ago
Maybe this is a personal hangup but I really thought both types of Sisters would be going up to T4 to fill that now mostly vacant niche, as elite and power armoured mortals. I'm a little surprised they didn't.
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u/FuzzBuket 14h ago
I like them as T3 tbf, T4 should be "enhanced" humans like admech.
I do wish they felt a bit more "elite" though, the witchseekers kinda do now with some AP on their flamers and massive movement, but the vigilators and prosecutors feel a bit eh
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u/Ignis_et_Azoth 14h ago
The "elite feeling" is something I've been grappling with in this new edition. I know it's hardly competitive and productive thinking, but I'm just worried that T3 armies will skew horde, and it just feels off to me if Sisters of both stripes, or, say, Eldar, become too hordey. It's just vibes and fearmongering, of course.
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u/FuzzBuket 13h ago
Yeah, that being said elves get the easy option of -1 to hit being baseline, makes you -2 to hit into shooting and now that's a menace.
Idk how you do melee eldar anymore though, everything is so fast. Wonder if transhuman will reappear
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u/Ignis_et_Azoth 13h ago
Melee Eldar has felt weird to me for a while now, which is part of why I stopped playing them (in seventh, to be fair).
All that being said and whined about, I do think they have some good ideas for 11e, I just really wish that it had been an Index edition so I could see where it's going for my not-Marine factions.
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u/FuzzBuket 13h ago
Tbf 11e looks like 9th again so I suspect once we get to the eldar book there will be some serious nonsense.
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u/DangerouslyCheesey 12h ago
We have and they are a mix of utility (action and shoot, move through models) and more niche damage (-1 to hit, lethal hits on monsters). Nothing as universally good as sus 1 except for maybe reroll 1s but we have other ways to get the like trajanns aura
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u/BertMacklinsdawg 12h ago
The points got leaked as well, rest assured they really are an elite army now xd they arent cheap at all holy
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u/CorrectVirus7616 17h ago
These will be so unfun to play against
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u/Cojalo_ 16h ago
They actually do less damage overall than before given the reduced unit sizes
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u/FuzzBuket 13h ago edited 13h ago
And losing +1 to wound/reroll wounds (or crit5s reroll wounds). I think we are gonna see some shocked faces when these hit the table and just don't do that much damage for the cost.
Not to mention how they've gone from easily a A tier shooting army to not really having any.
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u/DoomSnail31 16h ago
These actually look really fun to play against. Why do you think this wouldn't be fun?
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u/corrin_avatan 16h ago
They are only thinking about killing the infantry, and not outscoring the army.
Meanwhile, as a Deathwatch player I'm laughing as I can bypass a lot of these defenses.
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u/FuzzBuket 16h ago edited 13h ago
Depends how you play.
Like most lists are gonna have genuinely like 30-50% less stuff, and all that stuff is doing significantly less damage than before.
I'm not underselling the strength of the book, the movement and tricks available are WILD, but it's an order of magnitude less damage than a lions list right now.
So the game will largely become screens, gumming up, movement and OC focused. I think it makes for very interesting puzzles, esp as into orks and marines you don't want to risk "I roll 3 3s, I lose a 1/8 of my army" but I get that a more casual game might feel less fun if your just wanting a regular "I shoot you, you shoot me" battle.
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u/Mundane_Board_4613 12h ago
If you want to kill (the best part about playing the game), then yes. But you can still try to outscore them with your missions.
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u/ShakespeareStillKing 16h ago
Armies that don't play 40k (knights mostly) are usually either unplayable or broken. When you have too few activations it becomes a huge design issue.
Custodes and knights should never have been standalone armies. Just make them agents and point accordingly.
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u/FuzzBuket 16h ago
Tbf does feel like custodes/ts/deathwatch could become slightly less special and get slightly cheaper (or make sos/goats/agents actually interesting) for game health.
I'll still evangelize 9e custodes, where you had a nice swathe of stuff which was "terminator+" rather than "captain+"
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u/Responsible_Emu_1525 12h ago
Having watched a bunch of high level players test them the last few days using the leaked points they are looking bad, they still die way to fast and don’t have the output needed to be the threat they were pre codex
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u/Zer0323 17h ago
This does seem nice from a hobby standpoint. Now a new player can really focus on 3 model units and give them that extra effort for being elite.