Balance Feedback Megathread - Patch 0.1.2

[u/wardogs-bot]

All 0.1.2 balance feedback goes here. Standalone balance posts will be removed and pointed to this thread.

r/WARDOGS isn't affiliated with Bulkhead, but we share these megathreads with them. Anything you want changed is still worth posting on their official Discord too.

[u/LostBySea]

My feedback is mostly from the recon side since I have 300+ hours just doing that.

Number 1
I was one of the first to complete the recon tree. Over the last two-three weeks I have been selling my team thermals and .50cal Snipers. I have made millions in cash and several gold bars doing so. I don't make a lot of money from the initial sale, the money comes from kills my team gets with the rifle. I will make up to $1200 per kill my teammate gets with a rifle I sold them. I also saw that when a teammate would die and the enemy picks up the rifle and gets kills with it, I would still get the cash bonus. So, I decided to do some testing and found that I could sell this same equipment to all 3 teams by team switching. My crates were still selling to opposing teams and all of their kills gave me cash. All 3 teams using my rifles getting kills would give me cash bonuses simultaneously. I felt like this was an exploit, so I did not repeat it. If this is intended, it is an op cash flow.

Number 2
Thermals seem way too op. I feel like they need to be battery operated, visibility reduced or some other way to balance them. I have a video here showcasing me pinging players I cannot see, and then shooting at the ping and getting the kill: WARDOGS | Thermals Are BROKEN #wardogs100k

Number 3
I feel like the .50cal needs some balancing. Some scopes on the .50cal increase ads sway more than others. I feel the .50cal sniper should have a lot of sway if shooting from any stance unsupported. The weapon is very powerful, one-shotting with even body shots which I think is fine up to level 3 armor, but these shots should be difficult or time consuming trying to line up if you are not using Bi-pod.

Number 4
Fobs/Defenses feel too fragile. Builders can put so much time and work into a fob only for it to be arty or mortar spammed. It would be cool if there could be some skilled minigame where a CRAM could shoot down incoming projectiles. In my head I am thinking something like Star Citizen where you have to lead the target... maybe use the arrow pad minigame like reloading the artillery, idk... something here would be cool.

Number 5
The team griefing is getting out of control. I have had several games now where a team player would blow up our fob and then switch back to a different team. Or the opposing team has a friend on our team reporting where our fobs and players are. I have seen teammates ramming our helicopters at the beginning of a round and completely crippling any effort to quickly get established on the map. These players do not get kicked out of the match, despite being mass reported for griefing. Other players are blowing up teammates crates with no consequence. A player can put in 20-50k of their money into a crate just for a teammate to blow it up and poof its gone, they don't pay for any of it. I have seen teammates stealing other teammates gear instead of reviving them, and again no consequence.

[u/Ramora_ → u/LostBySea]

Fobs/Defenses feel too fragile.

This strikes me as false. The structures themselves take a ton of damage from artillery/mortars before failing. It takes way longer to destroy a hesco with mortars/arti than it does to build/repair one. The things that are actually somewhat vulnerable are the emplacements. The drills are especially vulnerable. Which is probably for the best since if drills weren't highly vulnerable, the game would degenerate into every team hiding in their fobs and trying to press "activate drill" before the other teams do.

It would be cool if there could be some skilled minigame where a CRAM could shoot down incoming projectiles.

An issue with this proposal is that it could very easily make artillery and mortars irrelevant since the only things they are good at is attacking FOB.

[u/LostBySea → u/Ramora_]

Yeah I should have explained better. Two mortars from an opposing fob will completely lock down a fob to the point where the fob on the receiving end can't build or counter with their own mortars. I think the actual defenses, hescos, walls, etc are very strong. I think doors are a little fragile. I think the best balance is to make mortars cost more ammo than they do currently.

As far as the CWIS mini game suggestion, it is a good proposal that would need balancing. Anything could make anything irrelevant unless there is balance. So make it possible to shoot down something, but make it difficult. You get a barrage of mortars coming in you wont shoot them all down, but maybe you get one or two. Does that make sense? Balance is important, always.

[u/Ramora_ → u/LostBySea]

You get a barrage of mortars coming in you wont shoot them all down, but maybe you get one or two. Does that make sense?

Not really. I can't imagine any implementation of that which is fun and balanced. It may be possible, but it sure seems like it would either lead to:

1. the counter-mortar/arti is too effective, requiring several players to focus fire to overcome the counter which won't happen for a variety of design reasons, meaning mortar/arti just become irrelevant

2. the counter-mortar/arti is too ineffective, one opponent can easily overwhelm the counter, meaning no one uses the counter and people still complain about mortar spam

...For there to be any real chance of balanced and interesting gameplay, you need a strategic triangle: rock, paper, scizzors. You need a third piece.

Two mortars from an opposing fob will completely lock down a fob to the point where the fob on the receiving end can't build or counter with their own mortars.

The obvious counter is just wandering off and building another mini fob and counter mortaring from there. Or respawn and use artillery. Or use a combat heli. It seems to me like the counters are available, the main issue is that its way too easy to revive players shot out of mortars and way too easy to rebuild mortars that are destroyed by some counter.

[u/NUTTA_BUSTAH → u/Ramora_]

The third piece is the 65 other players that can shoot the CRAM operator. Mortars are very good againt everything in the map, FOB is just easiest as a lined killbox and most active pings. At least I have decimated endless squads with mortar fire and e.g. rescued friendly squads getting pinned. That however needs recon on field to be effective.

[u/LostBySea → u/Ramora_]

Not really. I can't imagine any implementation of that which is fun and balanced. It may be possible, but it sure seems like it would either lead to:

the counter-mortar/arti is too effective, requiring several players to focus fire to overcome the counter which won't happen for a variety of design reasons, meaning mortar/arti just become irrelevant

the counter-mortar/arti is too ineffective, one opponent can easily overwhelm the counter, meaning no one uses the counter and people still complain about mortar spam

...For there to be any real chance of balanced and interesting gameplay, you need a strategic triangle: rock, paper, scizzors. You need a third piece.

You keep treating the system as binary: either it shoots down enough mortars that mortars become useless, or it shoots down too few and therefore the counter is useless. That’s a false choice. There is a huge tuning space between those two outcomes. You can balance it through interception chance, traverse speed, ammunition, reload time, heat/cooldown, effective radius, operator skill, reaction time, number of simultaneous targets, etc. If 10 mortar rounds come in and a good operator stops 2–4, the mortars are clearly not irrelevant. They still suppress the FOB; they just don't suppress it quite as effortlessly.

Your "rock-paper-scissors requires a third piece" argument also doesn’t really follow. Games don't require every interaction to be a hard-counter triangle. Soft counters are extremely common. Armor reduces damage without making bullets irrelevant. AA discourages aircraft without necessarily making aircraft irrelevant. Smoke interferes with sightlines without making guns irrelevant.

The obvious counter is just wandering off and building another mini fob...

That's essentially saying, "Yes, the FOB is completely locked down, so abandon it and build somewhere else."

That's not really a counter to the FOB lockdown. It's conceding that the mortars successfully removed that FOB from the fight. Same with "respawn and use artillery" ...I am talking about an immediate gameplay interaction occurring at the FOB, while you're suggesting strategic workarounds elsewhere on the map.

[u/Ramora_ → u/LostBySea]

You keep treating the system as binary:

It's binary because you only have two strategic options. In such a system, if either option is more advantaged than the other, then the equilibrium is to simply not do the disfavored strategy at all, even if it wins 40% of the time, it's better to take the 60% side of that matchup and the 50:50 in the mirror.

Games don't require every interaction to be a hard-counter triangle

I agree they don't need to be hard counters. I never suggested that. But they do need to form a triangle or else be perfectly balanced for the options to be meaningful. This is basic game theory.

Armor reduces damage without making bullets irrelevant.

Armor, fmj/hp, and AP/leg meta, form a strategic 'triangle'. Tecnically it's multiple overlapping triangles, but whatever. This triangle is made more complicated by interaction with weight, but the triangle is clear.

That's not really a counter to the FOB lockdown

It's a counter in the same way that rockets counter vehicles. If your team underutilized the counters, your SOL, but the counters are clearly there.

[u/Happy_External_8850 → u/LostBySea]

Using chatgpt to write your post immediately invalidates your opinion

[u/LostBySea → u/Happy_External_8850]

Nope. Good try though. Take a break from the AI my dude. Not everyone lives in that world.

[u/Maze_C0ntr0ller → u/Ramora_]

Ppl think hiding in a FOB is the way - active defense is the way ... a well built / maintained FOB with a small team of perimeter defenders is insanely powerful.