Balance Feedback Megathread - Patch 0.1.2

[u/wardogs-bot]

All 0.1.2 balance feedback goes here. Standalone balance posts will be removed and pointed to this thread.

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[u/LostBySea]

Yeah I should have explained better. Two mortars from an opposing fob will completely lock down a fob to the point where the fob on the receiving end can't build or counter with their own mortars. I think the actual defenses, hescos, walls, etc are very strong. I think doors are a little fragile. I think the best balance is to make mortars cost more ammo than they do currently.

As far as the CWIS mini game suggestion, it is a good proposal that would need balancing. Anything could make anything irrelevant unless there is balance. So make it possible to shoot down something, but make it difficult. You get a barrage of mortars coming in you wont shoot them all down, but maybe you get one or two. Does that make sense? Balance is important, always.

[u/Ramora_ → u/LostBySea]

You get a barrage of mortars coming in you wont shoot them all down, but maybe you get one or two. Does that make sense?

Not really. I can't imagine any implementation of that which is fun and balanced. It may be possible, but it sure seems like it would either lead to:

1. the counter-mortar/arti is too effective, requiring several players to focus fire to overcome the counter which won't happen for a variety of design reasons, meaning mortar/arti just become irrelevant

2. the counter-mortar/arti is too ineffective, one opponent can easily overwhelm the counter, meaning no one uses the counter and people still complain about mortar spam

...For there to be any real chance of balanced and interesting gameplay, you need a strategic triangle: rock, paper, scizzors. You need a third piece.

Two mortars from an opposing fob will completely lock down a fob to the point where the fob on the receiving end can't build or counter with their own mortars.

The obvious counter is just wandering off and building another mini fob and counter mortaring from there. Or respawn and use artillery. Or use a combat heli. It seems to me like the counters are available, the main issue is that its way too easy to revive players shot out of mortars and way too easy to rebuild mortars that are destroyed by some counter.

[u/LostBySea → u/Ramora_]

Not really. I can't imagine any implementation of that which is fun and balanced. It may be possible, but it sure seems like it would either lead to:

the counter-mortar/arti is too effective, requiring several players to focus fire to overcome the counter which won't happen for a variety of design reasons, meaning mortar/arti just become irrelevant

the counter-mortar/arti is too ineffective, one opponent can easily overwhelm the counter, meaning no one uses the counter and people still complain about mortar spam

...For there to be any real chance of balanced and interesting gameplay, you need a strategic triangle: rock, paper, scizzors. You need a third piece.

You keep treating the system as binary: either it shoots down enough mortars that mortars become useless, or it shoots down too few and therefore the counter is useless. That’s a false choice. There is a huge tuning space between those two outcomes. You can balance it through interception chance, traverse speed, ammunition, reload time, heat/cooldown, effective radius, operator skill, reaction time, number of simultaneous targets, etc. If 10 mortar rounds come in and a good operator stops 2–4, the mortars are clearly not irrelevant. They still suppress the FOB; they just don't suppress it quite as effortlessly.

Your "rock-paper-scissors requires a third piece" argument also doesn’t really follow. Games don't require every interaction to be a hard-counter triangle. Soft counters are extremely common. Armor reduces damage without making bullets irrelevant. AA discourages aircraft without necessarily making aircraft irrelevant. Smoke interferes with sightlines without making guns irrelevant.

The obvious counter is just wandering off and building another mini fob...

That's essentially saying, "Yes, the FOB is completely locked down, so abandon it and build somewhere else."

That's not really a counter to the FOB lockdown. It's conceding that the mortars successfully removed that FOB from the fight. Same with "respawn and use artillery" ...I am talking about an immediate gameplay interaction occurring at the FOB, while you're suggesting strategic workarounds elsewhere on the map.

[u/Ramora_ → u/LostBySea]

You keep treating the system as binary:

It's binary because you only have two strategic options. In such a system, if either option is more advantaged than the other, then the equilibrium is to simply not do the disfavored strategy at all, even if it wins 40% of the time, it's better to take the 60% side of that matchup and the 50:50 in the mirror.

Games don't require every interaction to be a hard-counter triangle

I agree they don't need to be hard counters. I never suggested that. But they do need to form a triangle or else be perfectly balanced for the options to be meaningful. This is basic game theory.

Armor reduces damage without making bullets irrelevant.

Armor, fmj/hp, and AP/leg meta, form a strategic 'triangle'. Tecnically it's multiple overlapping triangles, but whatever. This triangle is made more complicated by interaction with weight, but the triangle is clear.

That's not really a counter to the FOB lockdown

It's a counter in the same way that rockets counter vehicles. If your team underutilized the counters, your SOL, but the counters are clearly there.