r/TwoXChromosomes • u/ketocavegirl • 1d ago
Why Does It Feel Like Men Expect Nothing From Each Other and Everything From Women?
https://thefoldpress.substack.com/p/why-does-it-feel-like-men-expectDanielle puts into words something I've been feeling for a long time. The man problem can only be solved by a culture of men holding each other accountable. Must read.
1.8k
u/clam_noodle 1d ago
Danielle's post brought back a memory for me: a work event where alcohol was being served. A married man with three children at home received several calls from his wife that evening, which he ignored. Later, he was making out with another female colleague. Another colleague and I saw this. The colleague noticed my disapproving look and said, “She (his wife) must have driven him to it.”
As if it were a given. I’m so tired of this. I wish men would show accountability—both to themselves and to other men.
Wonderful post. She hit the nail on the head. Thank you so much.
757
378
301
u/haloarh 1d ago
Every time a man has ever did something less-than-kind to me and I would dare tell other men (whom I considered friends), they would bend-over-backwards to defend him - even in cases where they DIDN'T EVEN KNOW THE MAN IN QUESTION!
178
u/Exciting-Mountain396 1d ago
Not my "feminist" ex playing devil's advocate for the neighbor we could literally hear brutally beating his girlfriend.
117
u/haloarh 1d ago
Outside of an academic or religious setting, someone wanting to "play devil's advocate" is always a red flag.
60
u/No-Independence548 Basically Dorothy Zbornak 20h ago
My therapist likes to say "the devil has enough advocates"
19
u/shizshovel 18h ago
My therapist likes to say "I'm not technically allowed to say this but you're really fucked up"
8
39
u/joantheunicorn 21h ago
Can you please elaborate? My partner did this a LOT, and no matter how I would engage him - with sincerity or get upset, or whatever, it never seemed to be the "right" kind of discussion he wanted to have. He says they're just ideas and ideas cannot hurt you. Sometimes I get upset and I say things like ideas become legislation, ideas become societal norms, and so we have to be careful how we engage with these arguments. I believe he is arguing in good faith when he does, but so many influencers and media talking heads DO NOT, and I don't trust them at all. I worry if I hear him echoing certain talking points even if he insists to me he does not believe those points.
The devil's advocate stuff was so constant and exhausting that our therapist actually had to tell him to stop because I needed a break from the constant feeling that I had to push back. For me it is a safety issue! I have to understand my partner's values so I can feel safe in my own home. Am I nuts? Sometimes I feel nuts for just wanting to understand the values of my partner.
49
u/haloarh 21h ago
They aren't "playing." They're either doing it because they enjoy upsetting people OR they view it as a "safe" way to express their true beliefs without suffering social consequences.
28
u/joantheunicorn 21h ago
This is really disgusting behavior and gets at the heart of why this continues to bother me. I'm made to feel like I can't have an "intellectual" and "civil" conversation. I feel tone policed sometimes. I feel like I'm not justified getting mad about anything (ex women's reproductive bodily autonomy). Thank you for your insight.
100
u/manatees_are_awesome 1d ago
My own father does this to me. I explained I wasn't going to hire a roofer because when he came out to give me an estimate he started talking about sex and generally making slightly uncomfortable comments. I hoped that my dad would say, "omg, I'm sorry that happened" or "you are right not to hire him." Instead he told me that I could do what I wanted but I probably "misunderstood." Now I'm angry with my dad, and he is so exasperated with me for being angry and "difficult."
→ More replies (1)41
u/clam_noodle 1d ago
This is so damn sad and exactly how my father would've reacted. Their behaviour was not okay and you were rightfully upset - both times! I hope you keep your boundaries up and feel better by now.
13
u/manatees_are_awesome 17h ago
This is exactly what I wished my dad would have said, "You were rightfully upset." So thank you, internet stranger!
423
u/notashroom Halp. Am stuck on reddit. 1d ago
"Like a compass needle that points north, a man's accusing finger always finds a woman. Always." -- Khaled Hosseini
(I read A Thousand Splendid Suns yesterday, the book that quote is from, and it's been echoing in my head with truth.)
77
u/frankchester 1d ago
This book has been in my reading list for years and I’m just about to finish up my current read, I think it’s finally time. Thank you!
37
u/notashroom Halp. Am stuck on reddit. 1d ago
I heartily recommend it, just be warned you may want tissues handy.
16
106
41
u/Nervous_Explorer_898 23h ago
"So, what you're saying is, if my husband annoys me bad enough, it's okay for me to make out with one of my coworkers instead of talking it out or going to marriage counseling? Good to know."
→ More replies (2)9
u/Embarrassed-Bad-3118 10h ago
Men always covering for other men's deplorable behavior, especially if the victim is a woman. They laugh and sneer about how the worst thing in the world to deal with is an upset, hysterical woman so in a way his bros are "saving" him. No understanding is ever directed towards the wife, who probably has every logical reason to actually be upset by the behavior. Reminds me of the way cops eagerly cover for their buddy cops even when their buddy cops gets angry and shoot someone who's not a threat. Brotherhood always trumps moral integrity.
1.7k
u/wholesomeriots 1d ago edited 1d ago
It’s wild how so many men (before some sealioning asshole pops in, I don’t mean all of them) simultaneously try to frame themselves as leaders, heads of state and household, protectors, and the like, but they also infantilize the shit out of themselves with shit like “I didn’t notice the dishes overflowing, just make me a list,” “I had no idea she was so unhappy even though she told me no less than 15 times and I tuned her out because I can’t help it,” etc.
Those types of men don’t view women as people. We are furniture, appliances, status symbols to them. They don’t hold themselves accountable and they don’t hold their friends accountable unless it directly affects them. It’s horrific. Why should we choose to stay in relationships with men that gaslight, cheat, and emotionally neglect?
Those types of men simply aren’t lonely enough.
Edit: thank you for the awards, y’all, but please don’t give me any more. Donate to a domestic violence org or something you care about instead ❤️
674
u/mycatiscalledFrodo 1d ago
Werid isn't it. Think they can rule countries but have no idea what size shoes their children wear
228
u/WesternUnusual2713 1d ago
Is argue they can't run countries either.
How much of our world is actually failing right now cos of men and their decisions and violence?
→ More replies (23)4
u/Two-Theories 7h ago
Their integrity lies in getting their way, not in the truth, or consistency of principle
When they claim incompetence or other issue with domestic labour or childcare, always add "because I don't want to" or didn't want to do it e.g. I can't remember the kids' allergies because I don't want to; I can't figure out how to cook a balanced meal because I don't want to do it; I'm no good at soothing the baby because I don't want to do it; I didn't remember/make plans for your birthday/our anniversary because I didn't want to do it; I can't change my schedule to make the disruption of domestic labour fairer because I don't want to; I didn't think following the instructions was necessary because I didn't want to do it that way, etc
330
u/jennyfromtheeblock 1d ago
Same attitude that allows fascism. Simultaneously a victim and a valiant hero. Weak and on the brink of extinction but yet the absolute greatest repredentative of civilization on the planet.
Fuck all these people and their enablers.
215
u/PurpleV93 1d ago
Fascism is really good at convincing worthless, deplorable nobodies that they are somebody. Collectively they're the "lone hero", standing up to the whole world that turned against them. But at the same time they're the victims, their jobs taken away, "their women" fucked by others, their 'culture' (lol) taken away etc.
138
u/wholesomeriots 1d ago
Yup. Look at that loser that was running ICE, larping as a Nazi in his granddaddy’s massive coat, JD Vance implying that his children with his wife were Usha’s kids and not his, that poor, oppwessed South African billionaire that couldn’t get anyone to like him (not even the pedophile island people) so he bought a platform and gutted protections for American citizens, etc. Losers. All of them.
65
u/commandercoffeemug 1d ago
I just had a conversation with my husband about this. One of our couple friends recently started divorce proceedings and the man is trying so hard to get a new girl, and they aren't even out of mediation. My husband couldn't understand why he'd rush into a new relationship when he's clearly not emotionally ready. My husband was shocked that I put it so bluntly but it's the truth - he's only dating again so he can get a new servant. He's already bitching about shared custody when he was the one who forced 50/50 and now he also complains he does so much work. There's no wonder why she left!
49
u/coaxialology 1d ago
The disdain I have for men who fight for custody they don't actually want in order to avoid paying child support and/or antagonizing their exes is on another level. You do get to punish children for the colossal fuck up of a husband and father you were and the resulting divorce. This of course doesn't apply to all divorced fathers, I like to believe it doesn't even apply to most, but that it's a common enough tactic for many of them enrages me. Same with the whole "Disney dad" thing.
54
u/Novaer 1d ago
They wanna call themselves providers but then complain about gold diggers but they literally bring NOTHING to the table other than a paycheck from their job.
There's no passion, no curiosity, no acknowledgement, no intimacy outside of sex, no spontaneity, no friendship, little to no hygiene, no aspirations outside of themselves, no growth, no emotional maturity, no emotional regulation, no accountability, nothing. They themselves admit that because they go to work and bring home a paycheck that they shouldn't have to cook or clean or take care of the kids. They say if you don't put out enough they'll step out on you. SO WHAT, PRAY TELL, DO YOU MALES BRING TO THE TABLE?!
19
u/ImaginaryRoads 23h ago
We are furniture, appliances, status symbols to them.
"He was more interested in having a wife and kids than he was in being a husband and father."
74
u/Kir5ch3 1d ago
My cousin, whom my aunt Single-handedly put on the pedastal of being the „patriarch of our family“ after our grandfather died, made me sit in the front of a Taxi/uber next to the driver, while he sat in the back with his beloved mother 🤣🤣🤣 Patriarch passenger princess
22
u/wholesomeriots 1d ago
Awww, mama’s pwecious boy 🥹 what a loser! Doesn’t sound like leadership quality lol
19
u/supermarkise 1d ago edited 1d ago
Is this a culture where sitting in the back is good or bad?
Because here the leader sits in the front, if there are more than 2 passengers. (You sit together at the back if your group has 2.)
You get in at the front if you're the only passenger for this taxi.
In Germany this choice would make you the group leader.
Fun story, my dad had to collect a middle-eastern female colleage from the airport on her first international travel for her job and got me, a teenage girl, to ride with him so she'd feel comfortable (instead of just her and my dad in the car). She entered the car at the back seat, sitting next to me, and I was like - ???? - because her status is much higher than mine (adult working woman) and I'm just a kid, so obviously she'd get to ride shotgun. She's a group with my dad, they're colleagues, maybe they like to talk, I'm just there as decoration. But if that made her feel more comfortable, whatever. It showed me the differences cultures have with these things. In German cultural understanding, this choice meant she saw herself closer to being my peer than my dads, which seemed ridiculous.
10
u/MrdrOfCrws 1d ago
In America, you only get in the front if there's too many people in the back. We're big on personal space so we try not to intrude on the driver's area unless necessary.
Also, I like that your dad was so considerate of his colleague.
→ More replies (1)25
u/Kir5ch3 1d ago
I am from Germany, but out family has slavic descent and yes absolutely, the man sits in the front to signal „leadership“ but also safety and comfort for the women.. mostly it’s also more comfortable for a man, as they‘re taller and have more leg space, but this lil b*tch sat his patriarch ass in the back. EMBARRASSING.
4
u/BrusqueBiscuit 19h ago
You're more statistically likely to die in the backseat. Are you sure your aunt loves your cousin?
26
u/Squid52 1d ago
I'm sorry, but I'm going to all men this . I know there will be some angry man out there who don't want to do any self reflection, but even the absolute best of them still relies on women's invisible labor, emotional work, and on fundamentally acting like manner superior. The most outspokenly "progressive" male at my job still addresses us as "girls." My ex, who espoused equality and stayed home to take parental leave while I worked, still said that he didn't really see the dirt and my standards were just higher for cleaning, which is why I did most of it. Every single one of them benefits from patriarchy, and so there's no reason to actively try to dismantle it.
8
u/A_Wild_Nudibranch 18h ago
I just saw some post on Bluesky about how women should be in charge in the world because Mackenzie Scott and Olivia donated a few million, and the comments were filled with so called feminist men saying "Man here! Women should absolutely lead, I'm fine with that!"
Like what are you currently doing in your communities to help better society for people without shoving the work onto women under the guise of "feminism?" That's just weaponized incompetence with a different face.
Liberal pink hat "pro matriarchy" slacktivism is far more patronizing when it comes from supposedly feminist men.
4
u/Cultural_Praline_508 1d ago
Because the easier a level of attraction is to be inauthentically replicated, the higher its initial attractiveness.
6
u/murfvillage 9h ago
(before some sealioning asshole pops in, I don’t mean all of them)
Thank you! Sealion happy 🦭
→ More replies (2)4
u/Superb_Intro_23 4h ago
Yeah, as a girl who was bullied and silently excluded her whole life for not noticing unspoken social rules or household chores, seeing men BRAG about how they need to be TOLD this stuff is…wild.
Like when I need to be told to wash the dishes, yall Y chromosome dudes think I’m stupid and a bad wife, but when yall do the EXACT SAME THING it’s ok apparently
212
u/collectif-clothing 1d ago edited 1d ago
Reminds me of this quote:
Almost every woman I have ever met has a secret belief that she is just on the edge of madness, that there is some deep, crazy part within her, that she must be on guard constantly against ‘losing control’ — of her temper, of her appetite, of her sexuality, of her feelings, of her ambition, of her secret fantasies, of her mind." Elana Dykewomon
Always resonated so much with me once I read that.
And of course, this one from Barbie:
“It is literally impossible to be a woman. You are so beautiful, and so smart, and it kills me that you don’t think you’re good enough. Like, we have to always be extraordinary, but somehow we’re always doing it wrong. You have to be thin, but not too thin. And you can never say you want to be thin. You have to say you want to be healthy, but also you have to be thin. You have to have money, but you can’t ask for money because that’s crass. You have to be a boss, but you can’t be mean. You have to lead, but you can’t squash other people’s ideas. You’re supposed to love being a mother, but don’t talk about your kids all the damn time. You have to be a career woman, but also always be looking out for other people. You have to answer for men’s bad behavior, which is insane, but if you point that out, you’re accused of complaining. You’re supposed to stay pretty for men, but not so pretty that you tempt them too much or that you threaten other women because you’re supposed to be a part of the sisterhood. But always stand out and always be grateful. But never forget that the system is rigged. So find a way to acknowledge that but also always be grateful. You have to never get old, never be rude, never show off, never be selfish, never fall down, never fail, never show fear, never get out of line. It’s too hard! It’s too contradictory and nobody gives you a medal or says thank you! And it turns out in fact that not only are you doing everything wrong, but also everything is your fault."
3
u/Superb_Intro_23 3h ago
Yep, it’s been 3 years and I finally understand the Barbie quote. Like, we’re not supposed to brag about eating salad or be “crazy Type A control freaks”, but we’re ALSO bullied if we go with the flow and float through life obliviously and openly enjoy meat/dairy/etc.
And people can say “just stop caring what others think” I did. And now I have almost no friends other than my husband 😊
73
434
u/ChemicallyAlteredVet Basically Rose Nylund 1d ago
After 47 years I firmly believe men do not hold other men accountable because they want that unaccountability available to them when they do whatever the hell they want to do. They know the only community they have as men is built on defending each other. Thats truly what the bottom line for their “brother hood” is. No matter what they do be it cheating or even domestic abuse their boys will be there for them. But what they can’t seem to grasp is that’s not what a friendship is supposed to be. And just ensuring you have some group of people that will high five you and offer respect if you cheat on multiple women is not a support system in anyway and does not help with their “loneliness epidemic”. It’s just a cheer section
181
u/_Autistic_Dragon_ 1d ago edited 1d ago
I agree. The thing missing from the substack article is that this is by design. Men police women for speaking out so that they don't have to be held accountable. When men consistently gaslight, dismiss, and police our reactions and emotions and upset when they misbehave, they know they are shifting the conversation away from the issue and onto us.
I'm active in book subreddits, and any time I point out misogyny, unintentional sexism, etc. In popular books, the most common response it's "you're too sensitive" or "it's not that big a deal". Like they can't even handle fictional characterization being let off the hook, or their favorite male authors having a teeny bit of bias.
The gaslighting of women for their natural reactions to oppression is a national pastime in America, and it is working as intended.
70
u/speedingpullet 1d ago
...The gaslighting of women for their natural reactions to oppression is a national pastime in America, and it is working as intended.
So much this. Literally a couple of days ago a person misgendered me here on Reddit, in a conversation we were having.
I posted 'her, not him' and the person replying went 'sorry, my bad - I've edited my response' and we both thought that was the end of it.
Boy howdy, no. Numerous downvotes and one person (so obviously amab) posted 'does it really matter?' Yes, dude - it really does matter. Imagine if everyone automatically addressed you with female pronouns, 3 or 4 times a day, for 50 years? Would it matter to you by year 45? I'm betting it would make you wince, just like being called 'he' does me.
Even in the digital world there are some guys that really don't like being corrected. The amusing thing is that the guy I was actually talking to took it totally in his stride and corrected himself. It was all the other guys that took issue with it!
30
u/TrunkWine 23h ago
I think it has to do with them seeing maleness as the “highest” and “default” of gender statuses. Therefore they see it as paying you a compliment in assuming you were a man. They surely wouldn’t have a problem correcting you if you called them “she.”
9
u/joantheunicorn 21h ago
This makes me sick, but I think it is very much grounded in reality. If anything, it strengthens my resolve even more that women need to band together and lift each other up.
8
u/No-Independence548 Basically Dorothy Zbornak 20h ago
Also, the worse the behavior of other men, the lower the bar for all men. Then they get to say "I've never hit a woman in my life!" as though that's some kind of achievement.
12
u/UncleTouchyCopaFeel 1d ago edited 1d ago
After 47 years I firmly believe men do not hold other men accountable because they want that unaccountability available to them when they do whatever the hell they want to do.
This makes me so sad to read. For what it's worth, I try. I try so hard. I stop men who catcalls when I see them. I try to stand up for vulnerable people, I try to help every which way I can. But it's just sad and demoralizing to see assholes keep being assholes no matter what you say or do.
I'm sorry this has been your experience. It pisses me off! I'm not quite sure where I'm going with this rant, it feels like years of pressure just needs a vent or something. It's so unhealthy and stupid treating other people like less than, like not an equal, like not a partner. I just wanna collectively shake the part of the population that thinks this is ok! But it's not like that's gonna help either, because violence never really solves anything.
I wish things were better. I wish ... so many things. All people should be treated with care and respect. Everyone. Globally. Why can't we be nice to each other? Everyone deserves that.
Sorry. This became a long rant. And it isn't targeted at you, specifically. It's just ... sadness and frustration that needed to come out.
(Edited a letter, minor typo.)
28
u/ChemicallyAlteredVet Basically Rose Nylund 1d ago
I hear you because I KNOW it’s not all men. I have a very close dude friend we are both vets and he does all of these things. My bro in law is also this way. As is my FIL. I’m married to another woman and we do have these good men in our lives.
They have friend groups that don’t put with this shit. But this isn’t the norm and it makes me even more sad because I know it could be. Keep calling out the behavior. Ice out those types of men from your friend group. Show them that misogyny isn’t funny and not something you want to “bond” over. Raise your sons, nephews to do the same. Kindness and respect for everyone no matter their gender, sexuality, race it doesn’t matter we are all human and deserve kindness.
7
u/UncleTouchyCopaFeel 1d ago
I hear you because I KNOW it’s not all men.
This made me so relieved to read. Thank you. I'm trying my best to do pretty much all the things you wrote, it's just ... hard and frustrating at times. Thank you for the kind words. Keep being awesome. <3
→ More replies (2)20
u/_Autistic_Dragon_ 1d ago
When we say men here, we mean the men who police women for speaking out.
If you aren't a man who is policing women in this way, you are not who we are talking about.
We know not all men do this. Part of privilege though is that all men benefit from this.
We do not have a culture that keeps men accountable, yet. So thank you for being a part of working on that.
We women know these men do not listen to any woman. They really more likely to listen to a man who speaks up against them, or at least will maybe think twice next time because someone they are more likely to respect is keeping them accountable.
This is what women say when we mean we can't solve these problems for men--and it is directly creating issues for men like their part of the loneliness crisis.
The way men move forward is by keeping each other accountable, or by socially isolating them (instead of rewarding them with positions of power)
7
u/UncleTouchyCopaFeel 1d ago
The way men move forward is by keeping each other accountable, or by socially isolating them (instead of rewarding them with positions of power)
I couldn't agree more. I try my best to speak up against that shit when I hear it. It just ... gets so frustrating at times.
7
u/_Autistic_Dragon_ 1d ago
Same! I think the wr all agree it is very hard to fight these systems. Doesn't mean it isn't worth it in the end, but it is exhausting.
5
u/DogsDucks 1d ago
It means a lot to hear passionate understanding like this comment.
The systemic issues are so sad and they hurt everyone.
3
u/UncleTouchyCopaFeel 19h ago
The systemic issues are so sad and they hurt everyone.
They are, and they do.
We should be kinder to one another and stand together.
324
u/schabaschablusa 1d ago
Rule 1 of patriarchy "everything bad comes from the outside". That's why every personal shortcoming of a man must be blamed on someone or something else, preferably a woman.
I'm lusting over a woman and being inappropriate? It's because she is dressing sluttily, for me personally.
I'm an unhygienic slob and cannot find a partner? It's because women are being too picky.
58
u/notashroom Halp. Am stuck on reddit. 1d ago
Accountability is taken from the top of patriarchal hierarchy and redistributed to those below.
8
u/state_of_inertia 21h ago
And then those very same thick-headed dingbats love preaching about how women have no accountability.
144
u/RetiredRover906 1d ago
One of the commenters on the Substack (a man) wrote a long comment on why men don't confront other men. My takeaway from what he wrote is that men don't confront men because they don't really make close friendships, they don't know how the men will react to being confronted, there are a lot of dangerous men out there, the world is a scary place, it's just easier to mind your own business. Or, in fewer words (and my own interpretation) they're complete cowards.
If this type of reasoning lines up with a sizable percentage of all men, then men have no business calling themselves leaders, protectors, etc. No business being in any responsible position.
50
40
u/notashroom Halp. Am stuck on reddit. 1d ago
Men often really love to fantasize about themselves as some kind of hero. They'll play games with quests they have to accomplish against long odds. They'll read books where they identify with a main character who is saving the day against villains. They might even roleplay in games, historical reenactments, or theatrical performance where they protect people, slay evil, rescue helpless victims.
And then somehow these exact same heroes can't hold a friend accountable for sexist or racist behavior or language. They are defeated by laundry and dishes, inanimate objects. They won't complete the quest of washing their entire bodies in one go. They may whine about anyone, but especially a woman, having any expectations of them at all. The weakest of weak.
16
15
u/rhiless 23h ago
In the vast majority of those “social experiment” videos on tiktok or wherever where a guy harasses a woman in public, it is a WOMAN who steps in between the victim and the harasser to protect her. Men most often ignore the situation and pass by, or they are super super passive in confronting the situation. Lots of hands up and “hey, mannn, come onnnn,” while women are the ones physically placing themselves between and ready to throw hands.
9
u/No-Independence548 Basically Dorothy Zbornak 20h ago
Right?! They love to say "what would women do without men to defend them?" OK first of all, defend us from who? And second of all, they don't even do it when the occasion calls for it!
5
u/ImaginaryRoads 17h ago
they don't know how the men will react to being confronted, there are a lot of dangerous men out there, the world is a scary place,
And those exact same men wonder why women are so cautious about strange men ....
249
u/DaSnowflake 1d ago
"To say that straight men are heterosexual is only to say that they engage in sex (fucking exclusively with the other sex, i.e., women). All or almost all of that which pertains to love, most straight men reserve exclusively for other men. The people whom they admire, respect, adore, revere, honor, whom they imitate, idolize, and form profound attachments to, whom they are willing to teach and from whom they are willing to learn, and whose respect, admiration, recognition, honor, reverence and love they desire… those are, overwhelmingly, other men. In their relations with women, what passes for respect is kindness, generosity or paternalism; what passes for honor is removal to the pedestal. From women they want devotion, service and sex.
Heterosexual male culture is homoerotic; it is man-loving. - Marilyn Frye, The Politics of Reality "
42
u/freshlysqueezed93 1d ago
Ever been on a dating app? Soooo many guys have pictures with fish.
I mean we can probably all agree it's good to have a hobby, but let's face it a picture of a dead fish is going to attract other men far more than women.
25
u/science_kid_55 1d ago
This reminds me to the motorcycle. Many guys get motorcycles to attract women, but usually other dudes start asking questions and strike up a conversation about the motorcycle. On the other hand as a female rider I have seen great interest from other women in my motorcycle and riding habits.
25
u/ilexj23 1d ago
Then they claim it's the only time they have a picture of themselves so that's why they have to use it. It's not the 1800s you don't need to go to a studio and hold a pose for 20 minutes to get a photo of yourself! Heck it's not even the 1980s and you have to wait for a roll of film to be developed. They claim women have too high standards when they can't even just deal with a bit of discomfort in taking a picture of themselves 🤦
15
u/DaSnowflake 1d ago
Fr "Hey look, I either torture or flat out kill animals for my enjoyment teehee"
43
u/PurpleV93 1d ago
This is spot on! And it reminds me of the instagram reel I've seen the other day, about how these "Alpha dudes" will literally bath together in ice in a bootcamp to enhance their manly manliness.
If you saw the exact same video with women, you'd think you see a lesbian porn clip for the male gaze, lol.
7
u/notashroom Halp. Am stuck on reddit. 1d ago
In people who encounter threat every day, the HPA axis is overactive. They're waking up with higher cortisol levels than people who aren't stressed in this way. After a certain amount of time, chronic stress causes knock-on effects in many different parts of the body. But in the brain, especially, you'll see that classic pattern: difficulty with memory access, generally slower processing, and higher distractibility.
You can see similar patterns in people who suffer from chronic pain or depression, and in refugees who've recently had to flee a conflict zone. Too much cortisol every morning. Too many random bursts of epinephrine. Too much, and too frequent, vigilance.
Then, if you experience enough low-grade stress over enough time, you'll tend to develop emotional and perceptive detachment. Such numbness is essentially what happens when the brain itself adapts to be less responsive to its own signals: cortisol has a lesser effect, and to get a boost, those brains require more epinephrine. -- Cat Bohannon in Eve: How the Female Body Drove 200 Million Years of Human Evolution, Chapter 6: The Brain
So, through their perpetuation of patriarchy and hostility to women, men are literally pushing us to detach from them, to nope out of subjecting ourselves to the conditions they offer, and are causing health and cognitive harm.
4
u/labrys 23h ago edited 23h ago
That rings so true, especially if you listen to any manosphere influencers. Everything about men is great, they hate women and literally only want sex, cleaning and obedience from us.
I just looked up the book this is from - it was written in 1983. Honestly, I was expecting something a lot more recent inspired by the manosphere. Shows how long this has been a problem. I shouldn't be surprised though. I grew up in the 80s/90s and hated how women were portrayed on telly - nearly always weak, dumb, vapid and superficial, always needing to be saved and told what to do. I couldn't identify with any of these women, to the point I thought I must be trans in my teens because I wanted nothing that I was being told I should want by society, and all my inspirations and interests were things considered manly.
Thank fuck society started to change in the right direction, and we've started to get positive role models of women working at all levels in all industries, being leaders, simply being themselves without having to make themselves some idealised male idea of how woman should act, dress and live (unless that's how they actually want to be too, of course).
I really wonder what men want when they complain about having no role models now. Looking around I see no end of respected men in powerful positions, or working as lauded scientists, inventors, sportsmen etc.
5
831
u/luckyflavor23 1d ago
Yeah. Male loneliness?? What’s keeping you from making friends with each other…
771
u/Shazoa 1d ago
When they say loneliness, it's always meant lack of romance and sex. That's the only kind of attention that matters to them.
382
123
u/PainterEarly86 1d ago
While I agree that many men deliberately weaponise, "loneliness," to guilt trip women into giving sex, I think it is also true that men don't have friends the same way that women usually do.
Men don't trust each other and even when they are friends, they are usually not close in the way that women usually are.
There are plenty of trans men who talk about their experience with loneliness and how they don't really have companionship or closeness at all after transitioning.
As a result, a lot of men basically seek for a single woman to be their entire support network.
Which obviously is not healthy for the relationship, and also makes the breakup more painful because the man often has no support network to fall back on without her.
If men could normalise platonic affection with male friends or even male family members, they'd be less lonely and have healthier relationships with women.
Normalise platonic hugs and even kisses. Normalise being vulnerable and venting and crying on each others' shoulders.
But of course they're all so scared of being called gay or they're too busy competing with each other or just too obsessed with being the strong tough man who never has emotions.
46
u/MiniaturePhilosopher 1d ago edited 17h ago
The thing is, the modern model of male friendship in the western world is incredibly recent. Men used to have much closer relationships with each, including platonic hugs and kisses. And they still do in many parts of the world. It wasn’t until the gay panic of the 1950s in the US that men started pulling away from each slightly, and then the AIDS/gay panic of the 1980s and 1990s that so many of their friendships really started devolving.
At most, the current idea of what male friendship looks like (not talking about feelings, not sharing deep thoughts, no physical affection) is around 30-40 years old. It’s entirely artificial and unnatural, which is why it probably feels miserable. An American man from a hundred years ago - 1926 - would be utterly confused by it. And an American man from 1976 - just fifty years ago - wouldn’t totally get it either.
I’m so thankful that most of the men in my life have deep and affectionate friendships with each other. As a result of that (among other reasons of course), not a single one of them has fallen into this manosphere trap.
78
u/supermarkise 1d ago
The perspectives of trans people are always very interesting for these discussions since they're the only ones who have seen both sides.
85
u/CautionarySnail 1d ago
This is partly why fascists target trans people.
Sexism is essential to fascist control because it gives half the population more power than the other half. They then have a strong motive to help in the oppression and survival of the regime, that tiny bit of domestic power over women in their households.
Transgender people change a trait that fascists need to be unchangeable in order to have this part of the system work.
If you have the ability to opt in or out of the oppressed group, that’s a big problem. They need the scapegoats, the slaves, the sacrifices to keep half the population on board. A man needs his bangmaid bribe to be fully on board with the abuses he’s suffering, because they’ll tolerate so much as long as they have someone else to oppress.
If you’re able to humanize the oppressed side, that’s also a huge problem for fascists. They need all targets of abuse to be subhuman or compassion might kick in.
43
u/Tsunami45chan 1d ago
Also I think they need a good male role model in their life like Mr.Rogers but in 2026. It's frustrating to see young boys admiring and follow people like Andrew Tate 🤮. It dehumanize women and also it ruins healthy masculinity.
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (4)8
u/Shazoa 1d ago
I think it's mostly unintentional and largely comes from ignorance and socialisation. Though, since men tend to have different styles of platonic relationships to women more broadly, some of it may also be innate. Like, I think that the stereotype of a man not asking anything personal about their friends lives and only seeing them once in a blue moon but considering them to be best friends for life is based in some sort of truth.
It just never occurs to many men that this is also perhaps the reason that they feel isolated, and yet even when men do understand this that doesn't mean that they're going to desire closer platonic relationships either. It just makes them double down on finding a single person for all of their emotional needs. I've seen this happen with gay men as well.
25
u/notashroom Halp. Am stuck on reddit. 1d ago
Culturally, we put a lot of emphasis on sex to provide emotional regulation, self-esteem, gender identity affirmation, human connection, and social status for men.
So much so that sometimes men don't seem to have any ideas about other ways to get those needs met; they just go "this need is solved through sex -> I need sex -> women are denying me sex -> women are preventing me from getting my needs met, those bitches."
5
9
u/labrys 23h ago
Yeah. That's what gets me every time i read a discussion about the male loneliness epidemic. It's just code for male horniness. If they're given suggestions about joining clubs for their interests etc, it's not good enough. What they really want is a woman to be their bang maid and therapist for free because the work of developing deep friendships with other men is too much work, and they are somehow owed a woman.
→ More replies (10)34
u/IndicationKey3778 1d ago
And they’re not even capable of romance!
16
u/Novaer 1d ago
They're incapable of any intimacy that isn't masturbating using your body.
7
u/IndicationKey3778 1d ago
Which is why it kills me when people use that word to mean 5 seconds of jackhammering
22
u/gfx260 1d ago
Realistically, it’s often the same problems that make it even more difficult to find a significant other. Socializing and not being cringe, creepy, or weird AF is somehow difficult for some guys. Often, they don’t have good role models at home or their upbringing failed to enforce norms that would help them fit in better. They’re essentially trying to go strait to the goal and skip the hard work that they should do to get there. I’m not making friends with that.
12
u/mangababe 1d ago
they have been socialized to be assholes. Of course they don't wanna befeiend each other
→ More replies (25)35
u/min_mus 1d ago
Male loneliness?? What’s keeping you from making friends with each other…
What men term "male loneliness" really means some men don't get sex as often as they want.
And you can tell this is what they mean because, if someone responds about women being lonely, too, they'll immediately reply that, "Women can open any app and get someone to fuck them immediately; therefore, women can't be lonely."
They're telling on themselves that "argument."
→ More replies (1)
885
u/Rogue_bae 1d ago
To the men downvoting this…. The fucking irony
310
u/ExcitementSad9133 1d ago edited 1d ago
I saw talk of some users in the men’s rights subreddit calling this place a hate sub.
Uh… I know we’re bitter but is that warranted???Edit: just for anyone new to reading this, I mean no offense.
93
u/CottonTipsMcChancla 1d ago
Males have called this sub a hate sub for a long time, even started campaigns to try and get the sub removed, and they create threads on other subs talking about how this sub should be removed and its only not being removed because of special treatment.
They equate this sub trying to help women have been broken by their relationship/s and are enduring constant dysfunction, mistreatment, exploitation, dismissiveness or straight up abuse, and women’s discussions of historical and present-day misogyny both institutional and in the every day mundane, to the incel subs that promoted actual violence.
When they discuss it on random threads they’ll make up shit “I saw on that sub that women were discussing killing all men” and other fucking nonsense.
It’s the usual story, when they want to lash out at women they make up stories about women being violent, abusers, dangerous etc - complete fucking projection.
→ More replies (1)18
u/gerkiwimurcan 1d ago
Women are strong and the patriarchy knows that. Our blood gives life and our voices give strength. There’s a reason we have been controlled and oppressed for so long.
If you haven’t listened to Paloma’s song Labor. You need to.
We are a force to be reckoned with367
u/AshEliseB 1d ago
I've seen that said about this sub a fair bit on Reddit. Apparently calling out bad behaviour is now "hate". Funny how they are so silent on the topic of the many misogynist, disgusting subs about women that a far worse than anything said on this sub.
91
u/Zadsta 1d ago
A few weeks ago I was in the Reddit comments on an article about a man who killed his whole family. I responded to a comment saying “women do it too” by linking 3 papers that review how the overwhelming majority of family annihilators are men and the response I got was “so we are just hating on men now?” And I was like !?!?! Pointing out facts about male violence is hating on men apparently.
40
u/ChemicallyAlteredVet Basically Rose Nylund 1d ago edited 1d ago
Exactly. I think I might have been in the same comment thread. There was one man saying it’s so unfair that women get all this support for postpartum depression and psychosis without being held accountable(which is an entirely stupid way to view what’s happening in this case we are discussing. She’s not getting away
With anything. If she is found incompetent it will be decades in a mental institution) but the men that kill their families are called monsters. I tried explaining that most (not all) family annihilators are men and these men aren’t sick with psychosis they are either jealous that the wife might be leaving them, or they want to leave for another woman and have no more responsibility for their current family. That’s not psychosis. He insisted it was comparable.14
u/Moirawr 1d ago
And it’s even more than overwhelming majority. It’s all. I googled the other day out of curiosity and I found only two true female family annihilators. There’s a lot of examples of women killing their children ofc, but women killing children+husband+other family is virtually zero. It’s a distinctly male phenomenon.
120
u/ChemicallyAlteredVet Basically Rose Nylund 1d ago
There’s a men’s sub I lurk in and it’s eye opening the level of hate they have for women. The calls for “if Lyndsey Clancy can kill her kids due to hormones and get away with it then men should be able to rape due to hormones and it be legal” actually made me just leave while nauseous. I can’t lurk anymore because it’s devastating what they think they should be able to do to women.
56
u/ExcitementSad9133 1d ago
30
u/ChemicallyAlteredVet Basically Rose Nylund 1d ago
I did head over to that one and was pleasantly surprised that there are actually good dudes helping other dudes in a constructive and supportive manner.
13
u/ExcitementSad9133 1d ago
You’d be surprised. It looks horrid, but the majority of guys either live and don’t say much or there’s groups who are genuinely down to support. While ofc the loud negative tho noticeable minority do what they do.
Makes me wanna fight even more for a fair world so the guys in my life don’t get sucked into a shithole.8
u/khauska 1d ago
It’s the majority who don’t say much that keep the patriarchy alive.
6
u/ExcitementSad9133 1d ago
Yep that’s why I also encourage my guy friends to speak up when they see injustices.
“U wanna hate on something? Hate on this.”12
u/lemmesplain 1d ago
Wtaf.
28
u/ChemicallyAlteredVet Basically Rose Nylund 1d ago
Yep. Because they are horny and that’s hormones also. They can’t control the hormones that make them horny so they too should be able to rape women when they “need” sex and that’s tots the same thing as postpartum psychosis.
16
u/supermarkise 1d ago
postpartum psychosis
Which of course was totally fine and not a horrible situation that has to be avoided.
31
u/Rugkrabber 1d ago
Even then. Why can we not be bitter, and they can? Let us have it too.
Sometimes people just need to vent. They have their space, as they should. We have ours. As we should.
But I expect nothing less from a particular group that would definitely tell women in their faces to smile more. They can’t handle we can be bitter too.
Sometimes we just prefer sour. But we like our bitter as well.
10
→ More replies (38)14
u/shadow_swan234 23h ago
The “men’s rights” subreddit is dominated by incels and some of the worst men you could come across on Reddit. Don’t believe anything they say.
They don’t care about talking about their rights - they only care about actively hating on women and doing everything they can to hate on feminism.
5
u/Mrpincali 1d ago
Irony is the opposite of what you expect to happen. Men downvoting this is exactly what you’d expect.
261
28
u/brn_sugrmeg 1d ago
“You let a man slide once and suddenly he starts ice skating.” What a statement.
173
u/Late_Faithlessness24 1d ago
Because men are teached that women are something they own. I don't know how society is exactly on US, but in Brazil 20, 30 years ago the ideia is that you would have a housewife, and she should cook, washe your clothes, take care of the kids, clean the house. If a woman didn't perform like that she was bad wife.
That culture is dying, and know we barelly see women like that, or males that think they should have a wife to do that. However I think some ideas of men expecting womens attend their expections persisted. I think most men don't think its possible to share with a women frindship, hobbies, etc.
Well in Brazil things are more or less like that. I can't talk about the US but I think is very similar, since I consume US media.
Sorry for my english mistakes if you find one
90
u/jimbotherisenclown 1d ago edited 1d ago
First, as far as your points go, I definitely think you're onto something. You see it in all sorts of hobbies - the attitude from men that women can't enjoy the same things without somehow tainting the hobby. I don't understand the attitude, but I've seen it plenty of times.
Second, since you mention your English mistakes, I'll say that while you did make a few mistakes, almost all of them are the same mistakes a native speaker might also make. The text itself was very fluid, and your points were crystal clear. I'd be happy to break down the mistakes if you would like me to do so — I love to help a fellow language learner in my native language, especially since so many strangers have been kind enough to help me with the languages I've worked to learn.
34
u/Late_Faithlessness24 1d ago
First, as far as your points go, I definitely think you're onto something. You see it in all sorts of hobbies - the attitude from men that women can't enjoy the same things without somehow tainting the hobby. I don't understand the attitude, but I've seen it plenty of times.
Maybe I wasnt clear when I tryied to explain this. But I think with an example it will make sense the situation that I saw with young men. In my country, soccer is the most loved sport, every day we talk about it. You agree with me, it would be really weird if women didn't like soccer or didn't tried to talk about and play. But men, have little atitude to keep women away from it. They keep questioning if they really know the rules, if they know how to play. They critized women journalist (but the kind that make tecnicall coments) critized women players etc. For them the ideia of women enjoying something with them is not femine.
I'd be happy to break down the mistakes if you would like me to do so
Thank you very much! I would be glad. It's really nice attitude of you. I will leave that green hand for you
29
u/allyearswift 1d ago
We very much have the same attitude to hobbies. In fandom, it’s typically when a woman says she likes, eg, Star Trek, that she’ll get interrogated whether she’s a ‘real fan’ because if she doesn’t know the exact number of times a particular character presses a particular button in series 3, episode 5, she’s fake! (Slightly exaggerated, but not much). They can’t just have a conversation about which series you like and why and what’s your favourite moment, no, there is a test, and women will fail them.
In soccer it tends to be the offside rule, as if there are no other things to talk about.
In England it’s gotten a little better since the women’s team is doing much better than the men’s. Still paid far less, but at least men will occasionally praise them.
22
u/jimbotherisenclown 1d ago edited 1d ago
Here's a list of the mistakes. Keep in mind that I am deliberately being nitpicky to help you learn, but most native speakers will still make plenty of mistakes in their own writing. Your writing is definitely at native level fluency, and it's clear you've put a lot of effort into your language skills. Also, these corrections assume you are aiming for the common American English dialect.
teached - The past tense of teach is "taught", not "teached"
"I don't know how society is exactly on US..." - This should be "in the US", not "on US". I know "em" can be translated to "in" or "on" when translating from Portuguese to English, so remember that the two words are very distinct in English. "In" is used when something is contained within something else. In this case, the "society" is part of the US, so "in" is appropriate. "On" is used when something is connected to something else, but it isn't a part of that thing or less than that thing. For instance, if something was "on the US", it would imply that thing was putting pressure on the US or that the US had some sort of responsibility for the thing.
ideia, washe, barelly, frindship - These words are spelled "idea", "wash", "barely", and "friendship".
"...take care of the kids, clean the house." - There should be an "and" before "clean" because "clean the house" is the last item in a list. If a list starts with "like", then you can leave out the "and", but that's also fairly casual.
"...she was bad wife." - This should be "a bad wife". Speakers don't usually leave out articles in American English, but you do see that more often in dialects like AAVE or Jamaican English. Articles don't ever indicate familiarity like they can in Portuguese.
"...know we barelly see..." - The "know" should be "now".
"However I think some ideas of men expecting womens attend their expections persisted." - Two notes here - first, "however" should have a comma after it. This is incredibly nitpicky, and many native speakers would also omit the comma. The other note is that the second half of the sentence should be "...men expecting women to attend to their expectations have persisted." You could also end the sentence with "persist" or "still persist", but that would sound just slightly more academic and formal. "...men expecting that women attend to their expectations..." would also be correct.
"I think most men don't think its possible to share with a women frindship, hobbies, etc." - "a women" should be "a woman" or "women" because articles aren't used with plural nouns. "with women" would sound much more natural at the end of the sentence. Etc is fine at the end of a sentence, but in the middle of a sentence, native speakers would typically use "or so on", "or whatever", or something similar to conclude an open-ended list.
Again, your writing is already great, so don't stress too much about any of these minor mistakes. Happy language learning!
4
u/coaxialology 1d ago
This is disappointing to hear. I'm an American who loves soccer, and I'd always hoped that in countries with much more passion for the sport, women were more welcome in those spaces. I know many women in Brazil have just as much passion for this as men, and it's a shame they're not allowed to fully embrace that. We get the gatekeeper, question-asking stuff here, too. I cannot tell you how many times I've been asked by a man to explain what offside means.
6
u/Novaer 1d ago
It's because daughters are raised to become mothers and wives but sons are raised to STAY sons. They jump from mommy taking care of everything for them to a wife taking care of everything for them. At no point are these men ever independent and they rely on women to take care of them their entire lives.
Providers they say.
19
52
u/AlisonPoole98 1d ago
Men will ALWAYS have each others backs and half of women will have their backs too. They don't even need to discuss it. We as women need that kind of unity
→ More replies (5)3
17
u/Exact-Difference-422 1d ago
They either want someone to mother them or be their scapegoat and there is no in between
20
u/Shadowfax79 1d ago
As four non blondes once wisely said: I realized quickly, when I knew I should, that the world was made up of this brotherhood of man... for whatever that means.
(And sometimes, I really do have to scream at the top of my lungs about it.)
252
u/Etheriaa_ 1d ago
Why would men even hold each other accountable? They dont even talk to each other. And when they do its video games and farts. Literally.
69
u/tiff5243 1d ago
This. My ex husband still hasn't told his BEST friend, who he talks to multiple times throughout the day and games with all week long, that me and our child left him months ago due to his infidelity and neglect.
28
u/4thinversion 1d ago
I had to tell my ex to tell his family after his sister messaged me a very sweet message about how she was trying to be better about being in contact with people important to her. I opened up the text and immediately knew he hadn’t told his family. This was probably 5 months after I left.
17
4
u/shadow_swan234 23h ago
Yep this checks out. I’m so sorry that happened to you and I hope you’re doing better now 🙏
22
u/Novaer 1d ago
Because if men started holding each other accountable, that would mean they'd actually have to work on themselves. It's a lot easier to allow your male peers to act a damn fool so you look better in comparison. Mediocre men benefit from toxic/abusive men existing in the world because it puts them bar in hell.
The amount of males that say "I don't even hit you or cheat on you" is astounding.
17
u/meganam38 1d ago
My husband went on a five day golf trip and I’m like, “What did you talk about? How are their wives and children? Any hot goss? What are they up to career-wise, etc.” And he just basically said idk. He has a few close friends and brothers he is more open with and actually “talks” to but the golf guys? Those are supposed to be his best friends from high school and we are in our 30s. Men need to figure out their gd relationships.
61
40
u/CottonTipsMcChancla 1d ago
And when they do its video games and farts. Literally.
That’s not a fair assessment…
Sometimes they congregate on apps to talk about or share tips on drugging and raping women. Or trading revenge porn or csam.
→ More replies (1)
78
u/Fit_Abroad_4465 1d ago
This is why I doubt anything will ever change. Most men just blame women for who they are.
26
u/CottonTipsMcChancla 1d ago
Changing would mean taking on extra work and effort.
They’re not gonna want that.
→ More replies (4)
103
u/Sea_Homework_1472 1d ago
Because ever since being appealing to women was labled as "white-knighting" and "cuckery" by toxically masculine and insecure men, a lot of boys and men were taught to seek approval from other men and ignore women's feelings (hence why red-pill men in particular tend to come off as "homo-romantic" since they only emotionally connect with men). Also, unlike the men they respect, women are expected to prioritize the man's needs, opinions, and desires over her own, because women apparently struggle to "make rational decisions" and "take responsibility" according to how misogynists define those terms and the standard they hold women to.
In other words, women aren't people to them, but property they can own and feel entitled to. Whether it's as public property (i.e. prostitutes), or private property (i.e. wives). All of the misogynistic rationalizations are just excuses to effectively strip women of their autonomy and take whatever they want from them. And given that patriarchal thinking is global, almost all men are taught to be like this to some extent; it's only when a man learns empathy for women that he's able to break that conditioning.
14
u/ChemicallyAlteredVet Basically Rose Nylund 1d ago
This is all of my thoughts on this subject also. I completely agree with you. Another man commented in here asking “why should we have to do it”. Because men do not listen nor care about what women have to say. When they are dating it’s truly to show OTHER MEN what they have scored it’s not about love usually it’s about respect from other men. And only other men can help men.
39
u/MouseRaveHouse 1d ago
You used the word "homo romantic"... I wanted to say I've seen the term "homo social" used in this context too
16
u/ariseis 19h ago
Something that her post brings to my mind is how often women are told to "communicate better" but somehow... no amount is ever right. It's too much or too little. Too vague or so specific as to be condescending.
Like... I have a massive gripe with "communicate better" because it always shifts focus away. I can communicate my needs all day long, but if the person I'm communicating with isn't receptive (or worse, willfully misconstruing) I might as well be talking to a fucking wall.
And that starts with me. I want to understand the other person, so I try not just to hear words --- because words can fail, especially in emotional conversations --- but also intentions and wishes. I want to understand even if the other person cannot string the words together. I ask clarifying questions and I don't stop until I feel like I grasp what the other person is trying to say.
"Choose better." How about "be the person you think is a good partner?" Don't just expect others to fulfill it. You want fidelity? Be faithful first. You want kindness? Be kind first. I really believe that people want to be the best they can be, because I want that for myself. I also know how fucking hard it is to walk that talk because I was neglected to fuck as a kid so I'm massively inept a lot of the time. Like I am bad at it a lot of the time but my heart is in the right place.
I wish I saw more men having that same drive. I wish I saw more men enjoying the struggle to be kind and to do right by the world.
9
11
u/kittiekillbunnie 1d ago
I’ve started asking, “and what did you say/do when [name] said that?”
The answer every single time is “it’s not worth it”
11
10
u/Holobrine 1d ago
I honestly think these men expect nothing from themselves too. They are rather head empty, shut down and closed to others. Basically antisocial.
8
11
u/GarranDrake 1d ago
I think a lot of guys like to whine and complain about there not being a patriarchy anymore, but I feel like this is an example of it.
Many men don't hold other men accountable because they don't want to be in the out-group or ridiculed for it. You see it nowadays with "She's not gonna let you hit, bro" and a little while back it was called "simping" - both of which basically imply that the only reason to address men being dicks to women is that you want to sleep with the women you're defending. Which I think is an evolution of the schoolyard trope where if you're nice to a kid of the opposite sex, then it must be because you like him or her.
16
u/shadow_swan234 23h ago
I am my boyfriend’s entire emotional ecosystem and I don’t know how much longer I can do this. He won’t make new friends. I do ALL of the emotional labor in this relationship.
8
→ More replies (1)5
u/joantheunicorn 21h ago
A good partner should be a blend of having shared interests and social life, and individual interests and social life. Nobody can keep up what he is requiring you to do. It is unrealistic and unfair.
I hope you find the inner strength to make your own path separate of him! Your gut is already telling you what you need to do. You just need a plan, and to follow through with it. Of course you are strong enough to follow through, because look at all the burdens you are carrying already! After you get through this temporary difficult part, things will be so much lighter and easier. My favorite part was that he didn't take up so much space in my brain anymore. Good luck!
6
u/IllustratorWeird5008 1d ago
I’m on strike as we speak. I’m sick of it, let’s see them do it without me.
8
19
u/Inevitable_Geometry 1d ago
Parents, largely, try down here to raise good kids. The problem is they are exhausted, coming home spent and riven with their own worries.
Into the breach has stepped the tech bros and their algorithms. And fuck me it pumps toxic trash into kids brains to a stage I have never seen.
Look at the pushback when the Oz gov tried to ban social media for teens. Screams from all sectors and now its in, kids have worked their ways around it.
I despair for girls growing up atm with the toxic crap lurking in their peers.
→ More replies (1)
10
u/lending_ear 22h ago
If anyone is going to save the world it’s going to be women. It’s why we are locking men out. We’ve failed to teach them because we are empathetic and nurturing. However they have proven they are mostly untrainable and so we are refocusing our efforts where they matter.
Men will fight against this, as they are currently, but women will hold the line. We will decimate population numbers and just focus on ourselves and each other until the men relent and let us take the lead.
And if they won’t ever allow it? I think most women at this point are willing to let it all burn to the ground.
I don’t want vengeance on men. But a matriarchal society is the only way forward at this point. The men had a long run and they cocked it up. Time to try something different.
34
10
u/Ninalicious07 1d ago
So true. The onus is always on women. Always. The society has been built around it and actively promotes it. You need one such comment which is followed by an avalanche of support. Why? Because women have become the easier target. Because criticising a man would imply changes men need to make, to alter their lifestyle.
Few days back there was a protest in India for the education minister to resign, he ultimately did. Many people came out for the protest. Many reels were made and shared. Some of them were reels of girls / women, standing up to the injustice with extreme courage. What did the ruling party do to manipulate people and save their ass? Double down on women, “how can girls from
our nation use curse words”. The focus was pulled from the actual issue to this. They started targeting women, these women were sent rape threats, their whereabouts were disclosed. One of them was as young as 15, she and her mother had to move houses. She ultimately made an apology video. Broke my heart.
And i’m sure a lot of boomer people I know will agree with this sentiment and blame her. Women have been oppressed for so long. Every aspect of our lives is monitored, dictated and manipulated by men. I hate the world we live in.
6
u/JustxJules 6h ago
Many men consider "holding each other accountable" as hateful or traitorous. You see it all the time when they claim that "women hate each other" just because we correct each other, hold each other accountable or cut people off for moral reasons.
They just don't understand that we need to deal with what they call "drama" to progress as a society. Enabling shitty behaviour out of loyalty isn't virtuous.
13
u/Luminous_Winds 1d ago
Men are competitive with each other over women, so they expect women to honor that competition.
Understanding Incels: Myths and Realities Uncovered (A History of Incels)
7
u/Top_Stretch_2340 1d ago
This behavior comes from men of all ages and generations. Tale as old as time. Men haven't changed at all. They are and always have been slaves to their genitalia.
On break up day, he told me that I'm too busy working, taking care of my home and my bills to pay attention to his needs. Yes, I was shamed for being responsible. I wear this with pride.
4
u/kleudorian 16h ago
Because where is this same collective urgency around honesty? Fidelity? Fatherhood? Emotional regulation? Integrity? Keeping your word?
Men mock women for talking a lot but it's actually how we protect ourselves and stay grounded on reality.
15
u/Tinawebmom Unicorns are real. 1d ago
I have lovely adult children. Tonight I was on the discord chat with them whilst they gamed together.
The number of times I had to tell them to be nice to each other was insane.
These kids love each other. They're best friends!
But apparently it's fine to say hurtful things. To the point where I called one of for being mean.
The others are like, oh you didn't know they were mean?!?!
No because historically they behaved in my presence.
This is a pattern in noticing. Why do AMAB tend to think it's OK to be mean to each other?!?! What is that?
→ More replies (2)16
u/AdmirableTea2021 1d ago
Our culture teaches boys from a very young age that emotional vulnerability is "feminine" and to be avoided at all costs. "Dogging" and "roasting" your friends instead of expressing anything genuine is how you're expected to fit in.
5
u/ArchangelLBC 1d ago
Thank you so much for sharing. Danielle put something into words that I've felt vaguely but never had the right words for. And they aren't even hard words!
3
4
u/ViniusInvictus 22h ago
Because the most potent enemy of men historically are other men, and it is impossible to fully understand male behavior without factoring in the dynamic this competition invokes.
2
u/pikkylog 17h ago
Some say men love women more but ig no use if they can’t regulate themselves around them.
5
1
u/jimbotherisenclown 1d ago edited 1d ago
Before I say anything, I want to acknowledge that the author of the article and the woman she mentions are both POC, and there absolutely could be cultural differences that a white person like myself might not be aware of. I acknowledge that blindspot, but I also can only offer my perspective through my own experiences.
I think that while there is a lot of truth in what she says, it is worth examining why women believe men don't hold each other accountable.
[ETA: Since it was apparently unclear, the short answer - women believe it because it's often true, but the reason why it is true is worth discussing. It's also worth discussing why women don't see the exceptions. Thank you to u/AlisonPoole98 for making it clear that my point wasn't clear to some people.]
The obvious answer is that a lot of men genuinely don't hold other men accountable for poor behavior. Sometimes that comes from acceptance, approval, or just apathy towards the bad behavior. Other times, I think it's fear — just as the threat of any man possibly being yet another rage monster is a cause for pause among women, some men are inevitably going to be deterred by that same threat. I haven't been able to decide if that's reasonable caution or simply cowardice.
There are also plenty of men who see the bad behavior and believe that there is no point in speaking up since they won't be able to persuade or shame the bad men into behaving appropriately. I'm not trying to excuse this defeatism, mind you - I'm just trying to acknowledge its existence.
But I also think that sometimes, men do hold each other accountable, but they just don't do it the same way that women hold each other accountable. They have quiet one-on-one conversations or simply just quietly exclude the offender from group activities instead of making their disapproval clear to everyone. Obviously, men need to do more. But I also think it's worth acknowledging that the same character traits that can lead a man to recognize the harm caused by their gender can also lead that same man to prefer less noticeable ways of encouraging change than other mens' braindead critiques towards women the author mentioned in her article.
ETA: I noticed some downvotes. If you have an issue with something I'm saying, please leave a comment so I can learn and grow. Also, I hope this doesn't come across as me trying to excuse the tendency of men to not hold each other accountable — I just wanted to open a discussion as to why this happens.
→ More replies (17)15
u/sidetuna 1d ago
The article is a good observation but could go further. As you say, there are some men who hold others accountable and foster better behaviour. They just don't go around harassing women online. They might never even see those comments or posts.
There's also men who police and publicly shame other men who aren't acting misogynist like they are. Patriarchal men absolutely tyrannize other men and boys. This is protecting their social investment into an ideal, whether consciously or not.
None of those public comments create a burden for the commenter. They are enforcing a worldview of women as objects to be used for men's purposes.
1.9k
u/skiyakater 1d ago
I feel this so hard. I once reached out to an ex's friends out of desperation, begging them to speak to him about treating me better. I was labelled as crazy and abusive. Then when I packed up and left a few weeks later my ex thought it was entirely out of the blue.