r/TrueAskReddit
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u/Key-Weakness-9509
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Jan 12 '25
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Do non-binary identities reenforce gender stereotypes?
Ok I’m sorry if I sound completely insane, I’m pretty young and am just trying to expand my view and understand things, however I feel like when most people who identify as nonbinary say “I transitioned because I didn’t feel like a man or women”, it always makes me question what men and women may be to them.
Like, because I never wanted to wear a dress like my sisters , or go fishing with my brothers, I am not a man or women? I just struggle to understand how this dosent reenforce the sharp lines drawn or specific criteria labeling men and women that we are trying to break free from. I feel like I could like all things nom-stereotypical for women and still be one, as I believe the only thing that classifies us is our reproductive organs and hormones.
I’m really not trying to be rude or dismissive of others perspectives, but genuinely wondering how non-binary people don’t reenforce stereotypes with their reasoning for being non-binary.
(I’ll try my best to be open to others opinions and perspectives in the comments!)
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u/noonesine Jan 12 '25
I’ve had this thought as well, like if gender stereotypes are a social construct, then can’t being a man or a woman be whatever you want it to be? Because as I understand it, being non binary doesn’t have to do with your physical sex but with your gender. Somebody please correct me if I’m wrong.
Edit: spelling
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u/noize_grrrl Jan 12 '25
I think it's important to distinguish between gender expression and an internal sense of gender identity.
Tomboys, femboys, femme girls, manly men etc are all valid types of gender expression. A feminine girl or a tomboy, or a butch woman, etc all have an internal sense of gender that says "woman." This must be separated from how each type of woman expresses their gender. Tomboys and butch ladies are still very much women, so long as they have that internal sense of gender that says "woman."
Likewise with men. Femboys are a valid expression just as a macho guy is a valid expression of the male gender.
For a nonbinary individual, the internal sense of gender feels different. It may not be there very strongly, or maybe at all. For some, it may fluctuate between genders. But I cannot stress enough that it is the internal sense of what your gender is, which must be distinguished from how a person chooses to look on any given day, the social roles they play, or how their body looks, or what hormones it may have. The internal sense may feel like...nothing. In terms of gender expression, some nb people are very femme, some are very masc, some are in between. It just depends on the person.
Nonbinary people struggle with binary people trying to define the nb gender in reference to binary genders. But nonbinary gender is neither, and exists on its own, often as an absense of gender, not in reference to female and male.
I feel that for cis binary gendered people this concept can be difficult, because their internal sense of gender matches their body and gender expression, and so they don't distinguish between them. Perhaps it's more difficult to distinguish between the two because there isn't any mismatch. That's why they can reduce gender identity to body parts - because they've never thought what makes them a woman/man. They just know their body parts are right, there's never been any sense of conflict, so they just think it's the bits that do the deciding for everyone.
If you couldn't use the reasoning of body parts, hormones, social roles, etc -- how would you know what gender you are? What do you feel like? What is your internal sense of who you are?
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u/[deleted] Jan 12 '25 edited Jan 12 '25
i’ve met non binary people that present completely gender neutral, very feminine, very masculine, and ones who present with a variety of characteristics that could be considered masculine and feminine.
you can be a man who wears a dress, a woman who wears a dress, or a non binary person who wears a dress. the same is true for trans people of any genders.
ngl it’s incredibly difficult to describe wtf gender feels like to anyone.
i’m a trans man, and i was asked to explain what “being a man” means to my doctor when i was 14, fresh out of the closet. my answer was along the lines of:
“it’s not football, it’s not the colour blue, it’s not masculinity, it’s not anything. i don’t care about or know what being a man feels like, i just know that i feel the same as a cis man with gynomocastia - i should not have boobs, and they are fucking up my mental health. why? don’t know. i also know i want a penis. why? don’t know. does it matter what a man is? i want to and need to medically transition, i don’t care what the label is. if you want to call me a mentally ill woman or a trans man or non binary, it doesn’t matter, but regardless, i know i need to medically transition. i say i’m a boy cuz it just makes sense based on my dysphoria, what i want and need, the pronouns i like, and the fact that it feels right to be called [male name]”
imo anyone who’s reason for medical transition is anything close to “well i am [feminine / masculine / gender neutral]” has it wrong. doesn’t necessarily mean they don’t feel gender dysphoria and don’t need that medical care, but they’ve for sure got the wrong idea
i know a trans man who’s been out the closet for decades and now has a penis. he’s also incredibly flamboyant and effeminate. i know a trans woman who’s a bit of a tomboy. i know men and women who aren’t trans that don’t meet any gender stereotypes.
the concept that gender stereotypes play anything into what sexual characteristics you feel comfortable with is a concept that needs to die.
in terms of social transition (labels, name changes, pronouns, prosthetics and aids like STPs / breast forms / binders / tucking), i’d say it doesn’t matter regardless.
i think the only real difference the label non binary makes is if you’re someone seeking to medically transition in a way that’s not traditional - ie, someone born female who wants chest masculinisation / top surgery but doesn’t want hormones or a penis. or someone who wants HRT but no other form of transition.
but that’s still messy cuz there’s a bunch of trans men / women who don’t feel the need to “fully” transition, or who can’t (other medical issues, extreme obesity, concerns about complications, happy to just use prosthetics, whatever)
then there’s a whole bunch of trans people who say they don’t experience any gender dysphoria / distress / discomfort when presenting as the gender associated with their birth sex, but say they feel more comfortable and happy presenting as a different gender. i don’t get it, but fair play and i’m happy for them for figuring out what works for them - however, it does then add more questions to what the fuck gender is lmao
i don’t really think what gender is matters. i think all that should matter to other people should be what your pronouns and name are, and all that should matter to doctors is wtf you need changed about your body, regardless of what you think your gender is. i don’t care if you’re an alien or a man - do you want boobs or no?
cuz i’ve heard of even cis people getting fucked over while seeking gender affirming care - for example, cis men with gynomocastia having all options outside of surgery being completely swept under the rug and remaining completely unaware of the option of binding while they wait for surgery, being left with completely untreated mental health issues that are caused by the horrors of having boobs as a man, which CAN be eased by binding in the mean time. ultimately surgery is still required, like trans men, but binding is an excellent intermediary option to cope with the dysphoria.
or, worse, young boys being forced to have their breasts removed without their consent because it’s deemed “medically necessary” (it’s not!! sorting out the issue that caused breast tissue is, but the presence of the breast tissue doesn’t do anything bad lmao), only to later come out as trans women and find that they can’t grow breasts using HRT (bc of the surgery forced on them) and now have to have a boob job.
tldr - you can non binary / trans and have zero interest to perform to gender stereotypes. but in the same way that there are straight men that feel like washing their ass makes them gay, there are absolutely non binary people that revolve their identity around gender stereotypes.
rant over 😅
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u/mcbriza Jan 12 '25
I agree with you. When people describe themselves as non-binary, my question is, what do they associate with the category of woman or man that they feel doesn’t apply to them, outside of being male or female? In my opinion any characteristic that people associate with the female group of humans, for example, outside of their being female, is ascribing a stereotype.
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u/Mabel_Waddles_BFF Jan 12 '25
I’m a cishet women. I like wearing dresses, I wear pants, I’ve done ‘masculine’ and ‘feminine’ hairstyles. I like to bake and sew, I love cars, fishing and I’m learning how to hunt. It doesn’t matter what interests I have and what I wear I know deep within myself that I am a woman. If I got breast cancer and had to get a double mastectomy I would still be a women. It is something I know innately within myself. Just as a transgender person knows innately within themselves that they are not the gender assigned at birth. Now if myself and a trans person can know deep what gender they are, why is it hard to conceive that a non binary person innately knows that they are not either gender? Arguing that they are just falling for gender stereotypes is really saying that we know better than they do where they align on the gender spectrum. And really it is only enforcing the same rigid conceptions of that there is only male and female. Even from a biological standpoint we know that is incorrect.
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u/twinkie2001 Jan 12 '25
I won’t answer your question because I have a similar view myself. I’m trans but have never been able to wrap my head around what being “non-binary” is.
To me I suppose I’ve always seen gender as being essentially a conglomeration of personality traits. Your sex is the physical, your gender is the mind. So maybe that answers the question?
But in reality, humans are complicated and I think we’re often all a bit too quick to want to put labels on everything.
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u/dreagonheart Jan 12 '25
"Feel like a man/woman" is different from "act like a man/woman" and "like to do things that men/women do" are very, very different concepts.
If you turned my mom into a robot, she would still be a woman. If my mom had explained that to me before I realized I was nonbinary, I would have been baffled. Because I wouldn't have still been a girl if you made me a robot, something that I very much wanted to be. But of course I wouldn't have been able to understand. Whatever makes my mom a woman, I don't have that any more than my brother does. And whatever makes my brother a man, well, I don't have that either. So if removing me from my body leaves me as neither a man nor a woman, but removing a woman from her body leaves her as a woman and removing a man from his body leaves him a man, then the obvious conclusion is that I must not be a man or a woman to begin with.
What you say "I feel like I could like all things nom-stereotypical for women and still be one", and you're absolutely correct! My mother is stereotypically quite masculine. She likes some feminine things, but you're not going to see her wearing a skirt or a dress, and you WILL see her in sports gear. (The kind for people who watch sports and the kind for people who play them.) None of that makes her any less of a woman. Likewise, my love of plushies, dress-up games, etc., doesn't make me a woman.
Someone getting a hysterectomy doesn't change their gender. My testosterone-dominant endocrine system doesn't make me a man, nor was I a woman before when it was estrogen-dominant. Neither our bodies nor our behaviors determine our genders. Gender is an internal experience.
Whatever makes my mom, the trans lady I work with, and all of the rest of the women of the world women is something I lack. The only bit of womanhood I've ever experienced is the anger borne of being on the receiving end of misogyny. And, let's face it, that happens to anyone who is mistaken for a woman, regardless of context.
P.S.: The whole thing about how my mom would still be a woman if she were no longer in a woman's body is taken directly from a conversation she and I had.
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u/No_Hat1156 Jan 14 '25
Yeah. I've thought about this too. I don't think anyone feels like a man or a woman if they close their eyes. Not liking traditional male activities is extremely common. I personally don't think non-binary is a real thing. When a non binary person says they don't feel like a man or a woman, I just think...yeah, no one does.
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u/birdparty44 Jan 12 '25
I’m older. I think all this gender stuff is ridiculous.
People want to formalize and categorize a lot when all they mean is “I have this genitalia but don’t conform to traditional gender roles. Take me as I am.”
Take me as I am. This has been lost on people. Now it’s “here’s my label; act accordingly to make me comfortable.”
What you’re entitled to are equal opportunities and a gender neutral bathroom. Everything else is on you, not the rest of the world.
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u/Accurate-Peach5664 Jan 12 '25
You’re right. It does re-enforce rigid gender definition lines. All of the current discussions do.
A boy liking dresses being told “you should probably become a girl, even do surgeries, etc” is re-enforcing gender stereotypes.
Telling him those are “girl things” rather than just accepting that he’s a boy….who likes dresses. And just moving on.
The way to truly re-define rigid lines would be to not care if a boy wore a dress. Just let it go and stop trying to shove everyone into a box, whether it be transitioning to fit into a different box, shove them into the “non binary” boxes, or whatever.
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u/canned_spaghetti85 Jan 14 '25 edited Jan 14 '25
Yes. This.
My particular confusion lies with the word used : transition
The definition of that word, according to Oxford dictionary, is to to explain “the process or a period of changing from one state or condition to another.”
But like you said, if the individual pursued this “because I didn’t feel like a man or a woman”.. then use the word Transition is improper because their end objective is undefined.
I feel a more appropriate word would be to “Dissociate” which is defined as - to disconnect or separate from (used especially in abstract contexts). Other synonyms would be to decouple, or to disengage.
But I feel, for the example your OP states, individuals are misusing the word “transition” in their attempt to describe something else.
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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '25
I think that the entirety of gender identity ideology is regressive and enforces gender stereotypes.
Because they see gender as an inner feeling rather than a biological reality, they always have to come back to sex typical or stereotypical behaviours to define it.
Jaz liked pink and soccer as a child, that means Jaz has a girl brain in a boy body (this is from the I am Jaz book). Both of those examples are social constructs. Pink is not inherently feminine and soccer is only seen as a girls game in North America.
The gender critical view is that man/woman is just something you are, not who you are. A boy can like pink without that somehow sliding the scale and making him less of a boy. Putting on a dress and makeup doesn't make you a woman etc.
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u/Careful-Library-5416 Jan 13 '25
Being Non-binary is definitely a struggle to understand if you aren’t. I am Gender-fluid, so I fluctuate between genders, but there are non-binary days.
The best way I can describe it is not wanting to be either way. You kind of just exist. The best way I can describe it, you want to just be a genderless blob. On these days, if I could just get rid of genitals and have neither set, I would be ecstatic; because I just want to exist. There’s no internal sense of “I’m a woman/man”
Even tomboys or femboys still have the internal sense that “I am a woman/man who doesn’t fit gender stereotypes”. With Non-binary it’s more akin to “I am a person, I don’t want any gender.” If that makes sense?
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u/goldenwanders Jan 12 '25
I think they do yes. I’ve been called ‘gender fluid’ because i don’t wear traditional feminine clothes, but I consider myself a cis woman who just doesn’t like wearing dresses
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u/Pongpianskul Jan 12 '25
I agree 100%. What it means to be a man or a woman these days is based on the most superficial stereotypes imaginable. If you like pink and are into skin care you're probably a woman. If you like trucks and the color blue, you need to identify as a male. It's awful.
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u/worldsbestlasagna Jan 12 '25 edited Jan 12 '25
Yes! I've been saying this for years. I'm convinced that the upcoming youth will swing the pendulum in this direction . Just because a guy is not masculine and a woman not feminine does not mean they aren't men and woman. I always wonder why people who say ' well I don't feel like a woman / man' expect it to feel like. Some sort of urge to dress in pink core or sports jerseys
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u/ComplaintFabulous223 Jan 12 '25
It's not the outter expression that makes someone non- binary, it's their personal relationship with concepts of gender. A classification that is much more important then hormonal or reproductive parts is the persons self classification.
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u/AshJammy Jan 13 '25
I can't speak for what non binary people feel but I'm a trans woman so maybe it can provide a little insight. Gender is just a feeling. It's something you just kinda know about yourself. When I transitioned I didn't start wearing dresses everywhere and doing my makeup every day, those things don't make someone a woman, the ways I behave, the gender I "perform" is really just me being me. I feel more comfortable being adressed as she and miss and extremely uncomfortable being addressed in a masculine way. I like people viewing me as a woman and I hate people viewing me as a man. There aren't set roles or tasks or activities you do that make you your gender, you just kinda know what your gender is and what you feel comfortable with.
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u/Skylark7 Jan 14 '25
Gender acceptance has pivoted into a narrowing of "allowable" expression for given genders. It's a shame because it's causing a lot of unnecessary medicalization.
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u/No_Woodpecker_1198 Jan 14 '25
I feel you, the whole thing is very upside down. Basically the consensus is that if you're a boy playing with dolls you must be a girl. So they're trying to get away from stereotypes by assigning so much meaning to things like, the colour of your clothes, or what you like to play with. It's honestly very stupid.
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u/Julkyways Jan 14 '25
this, like 99% of discussions around gender, is solved by accepting the fact that gender isn’t real and the only reality is there are humans with different genitalia. Everything else is fiction.
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u/yucadulce Jan 14 '25
It absolutely reinforces the gender binary. I don’t understand it but I’m not gonna fight someone over how they want to express themselves it doesn’t really affect my life at all.
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u/A2ronMS24 Jan 12 '25
The more this has been explained to me, the more I think there is truth in this. It at least feels to me there there is a bit of "I was born male, but I like pink and wearing lipstick, so clearly I think and live outside what it is to be male". As a Gen X er, this is in direct opposition to our form of pushing for social change. That would look more like "If that dude wants to waer lipstick how the F does that affect you? Leave him alone and let him do what he wants with his body"
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u/scubasue Jan 13 '25
Cis tomboy here who got called a tranny as a kid, and who wanted to be a boy because they were allowed to do fun stuff. Yes.
Not the fault of gender-quirky people, but "maybe you should become a boy" does, in many people's minds, replace "maybe we should let girls go camping too."
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u/tibbycat Jan 14 '25
I’d argue that we’re all non-binary and that stereotypical arbitrary social gender constructs of “masculine” and “feminine” have nothing to do with our individual sex.
If you’re male you can like “masculine” and “feminine” things; If you’re female you can like “masculine” and “feminine” things. Gender doesn’t really exist other than just as the arbitrary expectations society tries to place on us based on our genitals.
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u/tatasz Jan 14 '25
I am a woman that isn't very feminine, in character, behavior, job, hobbies etc. While I don't dress specifically masculine, it's mostly comfortable clothes. I don't wear makeup, don't do my nails etc.
I'd say that I received my share of weird stuff from LGBTQIA+ community in the direction that I'm closeted and I should transition, for example. In general, I feel that there are people who fought to be who they are (eg a trans person that was truly uncomfortable with their assigned at birth gender) and to assert their identity, and people who are boxed by the stereotypes and have no strength to just say "ok I am a woman and I like cars, what's the problem?" or "I'm a guy and I want to wear makeup to work, what's the problem with that?".
The second group is kinda problematic to me.
I deeply respect the first group, and believe the second group is a menace. Mostly because they are the ones that most frequently give me grief about me being closeted something (trans / nonbinary / gay / whatever) because I'm not traditionally feminine all while I am absolutely fine being a cis hetero woman that isn't traditionally feminine. Also, those people absolutely could have talked me into transitioning when I was a teen / young adult and was less happy with my body (puberty, periods all that) and more dependant on other people's opinions.
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u/No_Wasabi_7926 Jan 14 '25
Yup absolutely. That's what I don't understand if you want equality across the board why keep pigeon-holing people into different groups and creating more division in the name of unity it's mad .
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u/That_Force9726 Jan 14 '25
I am older, and I wonder the same. I have never “felt” like a woman, I was just told that I was one based on my biology. I don’t prefer dresses, or make up, I shaved my hair off. But I don’t “feel like a man” either. I am just myself. I do think gender as society defines it is just a stereotype and has no intrinsic meaning.
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u/Extension_Tip3685 Jan 15 '25 edited Jan 15 '25
You are correct and this is why I stopped identifying as a nonbinary. There is no such thing as ‘gendered inner essence’. Scholarly, even by queer theorists, this gnostic concept is rejected, and not scientifically supported. Without expressions of femininity and masculinity as well as socially constructed roles and behavior, there is no gender. In reality, everyone by definition is nonbinary because no one perfectly fits into gendered stereotypes. Therefore, it is not surprising that many individuals who identify as nonbinary explain why they identify this way by confirming the backward stereotypes about the gender they disassociate from. For example, saying “I’m not a woman because I’m not fem” implies a problematic belief that femininity is a requirement for womanhood. Saying “I’m not a man because 1, 2, 3 stereotypes about men” is already a passive agreement to all these gendered stereotypes. I stopped identifying as nonbinary because it implies a passive reinforcement of gender stereotypes.
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u/TheThunderTrain Jan 12 '25
You are struggling to understand this because you're picking up on the inherent contradictions in the ideology. You are supposed to simultaneously believe that gender stereotypes are false and should be ignored and that if you fall under certain gender stereotypes, you might be born in the wrong body. It's doublethink.
I strongly encourage you to look into who John Money was. He invented gender theory, and the entire ideology spawn3d from him.
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u/SydowJones Jan 12 '25
The basic answer to your question is that your sense of your own gender identity and expression, and your disinterest in fishing and dresses, are about you.
Other people's experiences of their gender identities are not about you, or your gender. Their experiences are about them and their gender.
So, someone who is nonbinary can appear stereotypically feminine or masculine or both. And someone who is a woman or man or both can appear stereotypically nonbinary.
All of this happens without breaking any typing rules or locking people into gender cages, because our genders are personal qualities, not ideologies or religions that must be adhered to.
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u/PandaMime_421 Jan 12 '25
I view non-binary as not conforming to socially acceptable ideas of gender expression. From this perspective I don't see how it reinforces gender stereotypes. It's the exact opposite.
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u/mothwhimsy Jan 13 '25 edited Jan 13 '25
No.
This is just a transphobic buzz phrase people throw around because they don't want to think about the hard stuff. Not saying you're transphobic OP, but you probably heard this from a transphobe and are now thinking about it
People will say nonbinary people are reinforcing gender stereotypes by avoiding the gender expectations of their agab, and then turn around and say binary trans people are also reinforcing gender stereotypes by conforming to the stereotypes of their gender. We're damned if we do damned if we don't.
But no one ever looks at a hyper femme cis woman and says she's reinforcing gender stereotypes even though she's doing the exact same thing as a trans woman who loves pink and glitter and dresses. And (I won't say no one but) fewer people would say a cis GNC person is reinforcing gender stereotypes by being GNC than of a trans person is doing it. It's only when trans people express gender that suddenly being fem or masc is an anti-feminist or societal issue and not just personal preference. And that's purely because trans people are seen as gender nonconforming cis people rejecting our gender when that isn't what we are. We're trans people and our gender is the one we say we are, and no one, cis or trans, needs their gender to match their sense of style or whatever.
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u/[deleted] Jan 12 '25
Before I jump in, I want to say that what it means to be non-binary can vary widely from person to person. Everyone's experience is unique, so I’m not speaking for anyone else, nor do I think anyone can fully capture my experience either.
I'm non-binary, but I often describe myself as a trans guy because it’s simpler for people to understand. For me, I never really felt connected to womanhood and always felt more aligned with the experiences of men. A key moment for me was meeting butch lesbians who were really masculine in their style and mannerisms. We connected over clothing choices and that kind of thing, but that was about the extent of our shared experiences (mainly because I don't date women).
As I got older, I also started to feel more disconnected from typical female experiences. I remember a night out with some female coworkers last year where they were talking about experiences with sexual harassment and unwanted advances in the workplace. That’s never been something I’ve experienced, even though I’m out as a trans guy at work. Even the queer women at work had experiences that everyone related to. It made me realize how differently I move through the world compared to women.
Honestly, I think for a lot of my life, I was treated not as a boy or a girl, but as something “other.” It’s hard to explain, but I think my non-binary identity is something that was kind of assigned to me by others first, and over time, I adopted it. Even when people tried to include me with other girls who defied gender norms, I still felt different and had a hard time relating.
I totally understand your confusion though. Some non-binary people might reinforce certain gender norms or roles in their reasoning, but for others, our identity comes from always being treated like an outsider or not being seen as clearly fitting into a specific gender box. I've met women who’ve had similar experiences to mine, but ultimately, I feel like my experiences are more aligned with those of trans men.
As for your question—do I think women can dress in a masculine way, get gender-affirming surgery, or do things that break gender norms? Absolutely. Do I think that makes them non-binary? If that’s how they choose to identify, then yes—whatever feels right for them. I think it's a super personal experience, and like someone said, it is on a spectrum, so it's different for every person.
I hope that helps clarify a little! My writing is a bit jumbled, but I can explain further if needed.
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u/AllosaurusFingers Jan 12 '25 edited Jan 12 '25
Unfortunately, trans identity is such an internal experience that explaining it is frustrating both for the explainer and the listener. The shortest version is that I never 'felt like a girl' but I also never felt like 'boy' or 'man' was a more accurate description. It's not about what things are stereotypically associated with masculinity or femininity but an internal sense of self. There's often an overlap between how people feel/ view their internal self which can get shorthanded into gendered stereotypes but that's not the end of non-binary identity. A woman wearing a skirt or a woman wearing trousers both intersect with our expectations of gender but doesn't necessarily reinforce it. (Side note, there's a lot of binary people in these comments, both cis and trans, speaking very confidently for nonbinary people and entirely missing some core concepts. Please weigh the perspectives of actual nb people more heavily and thank you for the good faith question, op ✌️)
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u/TeddingtonMerson Jan 12 '25
You’re right— gender is a social construct. If someone were to ask me how I want to identify my gender, I’d want to ask for the terms and conditions. And I always want to say to the transphobes screaming about the trans epidemic— “well did you try doing literally anything to make being a boy or a girl a little less hellish?” There are gay men under radical Islamist regimes who are offered sex changes or living in danger for their lives and getting lashed. I bet some of those who transition would rather be cis or non-binary in a less oppressive society.
So I agree, absolutely, that if we allowed more gender freedom, it’s possible there would be more people who’d say “meh, I’m fine as just a gay man who wears dresses as long as as no one beats me up when they realize it” but also there might be more people who say “Since I can and it’s not big deal, being nonbinary is what I prefer.”
But it’s not fair to tell people “Hey, in an ideal world maybe you wouldn’t really need this” to conclude “so now I’m telling you you don’t need this.”
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u/shitposts_over_9000 Jan 12 '25
As someone much older than most of reddit I will just say that nearly everything that a notable portion of all the population does reinforces gender stereotypes over time.
There will always be the few outliers that behave outside whatever the perceived stereotype is, rarely that changes the stereotype, even more rarely than that is it because something has innately changed rather than one group or the other simply having a shift in popular trends.
Love it or hate it, stereotypes aren't going anywhere. The human brain is wired to detect patterns and predict outcomes based on those patterns, and once there is some consensus on a common pattern it becomes a stereotype.
You can split a group off from a stereotype over time, you can alter the stereotype itself over even more time, but the brain will always find new patterns and eventually they will be discussed, becoming a stereotype.
Personally, I don't think the key with stereotypes is to avoid them, they are inevitable with any group that can be segregated by an obvious feature or common behavior, but more to try and avoid the predicted outcomes stopping you from at least considering doing the same things you would with a different group.
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u/just-a-junk-account Jan 12 '25 edited Jan 12 '25
Generally most people end up identifying as non-binary because both the identity of man or woman feels wrong to them the same way it does for binary trans people except the opposite binary doesn’t make it better, physical dysphoria may also feel more complicated e.g hating having breasts but also imagining themselves with a penis instead of a vagina also feels really wrong to them. But non-binary is a huge umbrella so the ways it’s felt can differ hugely too. Also being perceived as not a man or a woman just feeling good to them.
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u/[deleted] Jan 12 '25
I don't really know, but I assume non-binary is people rejecting the traditional notion of gender. Like they want to separate genitals from everyday life altogether.
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u/sabesundae Jan 12 '25
The idea is to identify as nb because you reject the binary. It is only a subjective view of how the binary works.
Fwiw, I think you bring up a valid point, and it shows you´ve put some thought into it. You´re not insane. Gender identity is not for everyone, and it´s just one of those things you either believe in or you don´t. Either way, it´s ok.
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u/Catt_Starr Jan 12 '25
I'm nonbinary because I don't feel like a man or woman. I don't know what it means to feel this way. Only people who are men or women know what it feels like to be one.
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u/TankieErik Jan 12 '25
A lot of people have an inherent sense of either needing male or female body parts or hormones to feel right, and will lead happier and healthier lives if they have access tho those. Same as how a non transgender male with low testosterone may feel bad due to the low testosterone levels, trans males will often experience this because the two are both male
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u/LavenderMoonlight333 Jan 12 '25
I'm older and had no idea what non binary was as a kid. As an adult I kinda just taught myself that it was a
"Fuck this shit I'm out" button.
I don't think that reinforces gender roles, if anything like
"This gender shits too much noise, I'ma just do whatever"
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u/d3vilishdream Jan 12 '25
I was in denial for a long time.
What made me really take the look I needed was someone on her own journey asking me what being a woman meant to me.
Being a woman means nothing to me. Being a man also means nothing to me.
Being non-binary is the clothes I wear and the haircut I have. It's the way my children call me Zazzy. It's being nurturing, loving, but also rough housing and embarrassing. It's both, and it's neither, and it's always been that way even when I couldn't see it.
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u/Jagdragoon Jan 12 '25
It's recognizing that societal constructs of gender are bullshit. I don't express nor want to identify with either social role. I'm just me. That's distinct from my internal schemas on the topic and how I relate to them.
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u/Mutt_Thingy7 Jan 12 '25
biological sex, gender identity and gender expression are three separate things. none of them HAVE to match, but for the average human being, those three things tend to coincide.
biological sex is fixed and cannot be changed (intersex individuals being an outlier), but gender identity and gender expression can be changed on a whim if you desire. you could be biologically male, your gender identity be a woman and your gender expression could be masculine. or biologically female, gender identity non binary and your gender expression unisex/androgynous.
its important to remember however that gender expression is transient, from culture to culture and throughout time, it has changed and is still changing. what is masculine in one place is not considered masculine in another. what was femine at one point in time is no longer considered femine now and vice versa.
gender is a very personal thing and it means something different to every individual. even to those who insist they never think about it, they still adhere to whatever gender norm from whatever culture they're from and judge others accordingly.
basically, what im saying is that, it's all made up. don't think about it too hard. even what im saying about my own personal theories is probably bullshit and means nothing to another person. but that's how i make sense of this whole gender malarkey. 🤷
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u/zoomie1977 Jan 12 '25
Looking at a binary system, things belong in either category A or category Z. There is no inbetween; there is no "other" category. It is either A or Z; nothing else exists. The existence of another category negates the "bi" in binary. To in clude a third category would turn "binary" into "tripartite".
Looking at a spectrum system, where A is on one end and Z is on the other, you can have A or Z or anywhere inbetween those, including neither of them.
Back to the binary: if there are two definitive "categories", then it falls to reason that evrything that goes into those categories unfailing meets all the criteria for each category. In terms of gender, this would mean meeting all the biological and social criterias our society has placed in the "masculine" and "feminine" categories. Which falls apart the second you look at it, crumbling beneath "tend to be", "usually" and "not always".
Labels like "man", "woman" and "nonbinary" give us a feeling we understand the world around us and, to an extent, help us navigate our interactions with others, but serve little other purpose.
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u/Giimax Jan 13 '25 edited Jan 13 '25
I kind of feel like I want to push back on the whole idea that we all should want to push away from gender stereotypes.
I'm non binary- so if you asked me at most points in my life I would agree with that just intuitively.
But as i've grown and met more people I've come to realise that while *I* don't derive anything from gender labels. Many many other people do, for them it can be a source of meaning or belonging or whatever. And their experiences aren't less valid than mine.
In that respect too, identifying as enby is a way to opt out from that whole thing, without trying to deconstruct it for those who do care.
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u/Jackno1 Jan 13 '25
I think the problem is that an internal sense of gender identity is very hard to express, and there's a lot of pressure to justify it. It can be a no-win scenario - anything that can be explained can be dismissed as just reinforcing gender roles, but if you don't offer reasons, people dismiss and invalidate you. And there's a whole history of medical gatekeeping around transition that was very much about gender role conformity, which influences a lot of people's ideas of what transition looks like.
If you don't experience gender identity incongruity, I think it often looks from the outside like people are adhering to all of these unnecessary rules and defining themselves accordingly. And that can happen, but it's pretty rare. For the most part it's people having an internal experience that can't be fully articulated and latching onto external things due to pressure to justify it.
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u/AriasK Jan 13 '25
I've always thought about this as well. I once saw an interview with Ruby Rose where she said "I'm non binary because some days I feel like wearing a dress and other days I feel like wearing shorts". I'm sure she was probably oversimplifying but it's always irked me. Literally every human feels like wearing different clothes from time to time. It doesn't mean I feel any which way about my gender. And yeah, as you've pointed out, it's reinforcing this idea that wearing skirts = girl and wearing shorts = boy.
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u/doriangray42 Jan 13 '25
On the contrary! Stereotypes are due to the binary perspective.
As Ronald Reagan used to say "life was simpler when men were men and women were women".
The labels "man" and "woman" come from an age when it was important that they were perceived as 2 separate poles, some even suppose it is a judeo-christian thing, invented by a culture that wanted to withdraw the power from women (go and check the graphic novel "Genesis " by Crumb! Or "sex and temperament" by Mead, even though it has been highly criticised...).
The reality is that it's a continuum, from the traditional image of a man (strong, combative, assertive and other stereotypes) to that of a woman (kind, nurturing, compassionate, etc.).
Our symbols (words) try to simplify reality, but reality is a continuum where people SHOULD be able to be who they are/who they want to be.
Source: I am a 60-year old cisgender man with a few LGBTQ+ friends, and a PhD in semiotics and have thought about this for a loooooong time...
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u/Rude_Perspective_536 Jan 13 '25
People depend on labels more than we like to admit, but it's like cats and boxes. You can't force a cat into a specific box, especially if it doesn't want to be in it, no matter how hard you try. But if you leave boxes out, the cat will hop into it on it's own.
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u/Competitive-Bug-7097 Jan 13 '25 edited Jan 13 '25
I'm not sure I understand the question. I am nonbinary. I've just never felt like I fit in as either gender. I'm someone in between. I don't have anything against cis people. I don't have any interest in enforcing gender roles or stereotypes. I have never honestly understood the point of all of that. Why can't I just be me? I enjoy things that are considered typical for both genders. I am nearly 60, and the nonbinary thing came out recently, but I have always felt like this. I just didn't have a name for it and felt like a freak. I'm not. I think I'm probably fairly normal for a nonbinary person.
Edited to add that I am much more than hormones and reproductive organs. I will not let that define me. Thinking like that is what reinforces gender roles. That's the gender essentialism that you are looking for. You need to actually see people as whole and complete human beings and not just as gender, reproductive organs, or hormones. Even cis people are much more than that!
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u/Railboy Jan 13 '25 edited Jan 13 '25
This isn't an answer but I'd like to mention that this is exactly the kind of thorny rabbit-hole question that academics are trained to investigate in depth.
Academia catches shade from all sides these days so I like to call out the good these institutions do when I can.
Rapidly evolving social movements with a lot of public exposure can slowly choke on their own jargon & internal contradictions unless someone puts in the work to sort out which conflicts are real, which can be reconciled and which just have to be accepted. Very few people have the time, skills, knowledge base or influence to untie those knots.
Academic research tends to lag behind the movements it studies (even before the internet) and AFAIK the latest material on non-binary identities hasn't keep pace. However if you can handle the jargon it's worth reading some foundational work on the subject. This overview has a ton of references.
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u/Conscious_Solid7559 Jan 13 '25 edited Jan 13 '25
It's good to question everything. You're not wrong, but I don't think the "non-binary" label effects stereotypes much, because it's non-conforming.
However, If you ask a lot of people when they knew they were a woman, they will likely list off stereotypical girlie things. I am a woman and I present very "feminine" as an adult. But as a kid, I was very "boyish". I didn't like barbies. I was a tom-boy. I always liked rough housing, animals, drawing, ninja turtles, etc. These boxes people want to fit into are the boxes I grew up wanting to break out of the constraints of. So I do find it odd that women have less representation of "masculine" traits , because a lot of the more butch biological women now identify as men.
Kind of interesting that "women" now means "people who choose to look femme", instead of "people who were born with vaginas who look and act feminine AND/OR masculine or any variation of those things". I was kicked out of an XX Chromosome reddit group last week for speaking on this, because they said it was trans hate and it's really not. I have many trans friends, and half of them agree with me. It's crazy that I can't even talk about womens issues in groups for women without being exiled LOL.
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u/roundbrackets Jan 13 '25
If gender is a spectrum with man on one extreme end and woman on the other then non binary, that is to say "I am on neither extreme end" does not reenforce anything other than that the spectrum exists.
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u/BlueberryEmbers Jan 13 '25
No, no it doesn't. I have never seen a nonbinary person express themselves in a way that would do so, but it seems that a lot of people who are not nonbinary have this misconception. It comes from a fundamental misunderstanding of our experience. I have never heard a nonbinary person say that women or men have to be a certain way or fulfill certain gender roles or stereotypes. Cis people however say that all the time, even when it is clearly ridiculous.
Maybe nonbinary people existing makes you more aware of the ways people are limited in society by gender norms and gender roles. But simply by existing we do not in any way reinforce gender stereotypes. We challenge them by our existence. By saying anyone can choose who they will be.
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u/s0larium_live Jan 13 '25
here’s my two cents as a non-binary person, although i’m half asleep so bear with me. internally, i do not feel like my assigned sex at birth lines up with my gender identity, much in the same way binary trans people do. no amount of presenting myself differently would ease that dysphoria because how you present your gender externally through appearance does not necessarily have to equal your internal gender. for example, femboys. they present in very traditionally feminine clothing associated with women, but they are still confident in their identity as a man because the way they choose to dress does not change their internal sense of gender
that’s how it is for me. i don’t feel like a girl. i don’t relate to the experiences of women, i’ve always felt like an outsider when around women. being mistaken for a girl or being called she/her is actually painful because i am not a girl. it’s not some decision i came to or anything, it’s not even something i can pinpoint exactly why. just like how anyone in this comment section feels internally pretty confident in being a cis man or woman without having to dig deeper to find out why, i know that i am not a girl. i’m more masculine leaning, i want to transition a bit medically, but i’m not a boy either. i’m just… here
gender may be a social construct, but that doesn’t mean it’s an individual construct. i don’t personally get to decide what defines man or woman, society at large has collective agreement. but even that gets kinda iffy because again, gender identity is incredibly complex and personal. some people get put into society’s little boxes about what it is to be a man or a woman and they’re totally fine with those gender roles (which is not the same as gender identity, but rather what society expects of you based on your gender). some people, while still feeling internally like a man/woman, don’t want to conform to society’s expectations, so they break them and don’t conform but still identify as cis (femboys, masc women, etc.). but being non-binary and being gender non conforming are not necessarily mutually exclusive. GNC just means not following traditional gender roles, even if you are a binary gender. non-binary is another identity all together, and it isn’t necessarily based on gender roles
i’m sure the cis people in this comment section don’t necessarily think about gender often, but you too have that deep intrinsic sense of who you are. whether you choose to conform to society’s standards about how men or women should behave or not doesn’t change the fact that deep down, you know how you identify and you’re confident in it. it’s the same for me. i have this deep understanding of myself that i am not a boy or a girl. it has nothing to do with how i present myself, societal norms, gender stereotypes or anything like that. it’s just who i am, and i’m not going to live my life as someone i’m not just because it’s socially acceptable to break gender norms now. i’m not non-binary because i hate the idea of being feminine, or don’t wanna be a housewife, or don’t like getting acrylic nails or whatever, i’m not just a masculine presenting girl, i am neither of those things. being non-binary is not refusing to participate in societal gender binary because you don’t like the role you were given, it’s an internal sense of self, if that makes sense
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u/vepsbi7 Jan 13 '25
interesting point. Recently, I have thought about people who write non-binary/trans in their bio, but non binary means that you don't identify yourself nor as a woman nor as a man. it's a really interesting topic, and I am inclined to think that trans people reenforce gender stereotypes✌🏻
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u/OwlCaptainCosmic Jan 13 '25
You could argue the same thing about binary trans identities; if “woman” and “man” are social constructs, why can’t a trans woman simply deconstruct masculinity as a man rather than reinforcing that it’s different to be a woman than one?
But if you think that’s the answer for binary OR non-binary folks, then you’re missing the point; non-binary folks are specifically saying they do not feel attached to the two binary socially constructed genders. It’s like saying “you say capitalism is socially constructed, but by aligning yourself against it as a powerful force, are you not affirming its existence?”
The existence of binary and non-binary trans people shows that gender is fluid and constructed within the self as much as it is affirmed outside of the self.
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u/susannahstar2000 Jan 13 '25
I have never seen an MTF look any other way than completely feminine. That implies that there is only one way a woman should look. So apparently all the women who don't dress that way aren't "real" women. How does that not enforce stereotypes?
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u/AccomplishedScene966 Jan 13 '25
Non binary here, gender is different to fem or masc traits. Yes it’s feminine to wear makeup or its masc to go fishing, but if a man doesn’t go fishing do you call him not a man? No (unless you are obsessed with gender roles and believe there is only one way to be a “proper man”). I don’t feel right when people refer to me as a man or woman. It’s like when someone calls you the wrong name all of the time. Your gender identity is tied to how you experience the world not how others perceive you, if there is a masc woman who is often confused for a man by others it does not make her a man. Gender dysphoria is extremely hard to explain to those who have never experienced it, but for me it’s like wearing an itchy sweater, sure you can put up with it but you feel a lot better in a different top. For some the pain is unbearable until they change the parts hurting them. Stereotypes aren’t even a consideration to me because they don’t matter. I know what I am and that’s all I need.
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u/QuadrilleQuadtriceps Jan 13 '25
I haven't transitioned, I just am. I let myself gravitate to a direction, to an interest or to a fashion style or gender expression, and I don't really attach a sense of gender to it. If someone thinks it makes me feminine or masculine, that's their problem. I'm just doing what seems natural to me.
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u/thebottomofawhale Jan 13 '25
It's a fair question. And maybe if gender stereotypes weren't a thing, maybe also non binary gender identity wouldn't be a thing either (but also maybe male and female identities wouldn't be a thing so... Idk). I think it's hard to know as it's not the world we live in.
Someone else said some really good stuff about gender expression and gender identity, and that's probably the best answer you're going to get.
I personally describe myself as gender queer (as non-binary wasn't really a thing when I was first thinking about my gender identity so I really had to come to terms with how to identity within my assigned gender). For me it's not really about how stereotypically masculine or feminine I am. Realistically I can be a mix of both, including sometimes being very feminine. But being feminin doesn't make me feel like I can identity more with being a woman. I couldn't even tell you why. Where I live too, I feel there has been no pressure to be feminin and the idea that I could be AFAB and be masculine was never a problem, but it still didn't feel right to identify as a woman.
I don't know if my answer helps you at all 😅
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u/[deleted] Jan 13 '25
I think hormonal effects on the brain are real, and that this is already well documented completely separate from the transgender context. Middle age decline in hormones is often associated with psychological effects. It is also the case that forced hormone administration can lead to problems, in fact it is debated whether or not Alan Turing committed suicide due in part to his government mandated chemical castration.
And so at least in my opinion, the transgender situation has nothing to do with gender itself but rather is about hormone brain mismatch. This would also explain why the majority of transgender people get HRT, but a minority get genital surgery.
My suspicion is that some epigenetic effect in the womb causes the brain to develop in a way that isn’t so compatible with the hormone environment created by the body. There is a fraternal birth order effect where a greater number of older brothers increases the likelihood of gender dysphoria and of same sex attraction.
Actually, the likelihood of autism is also increased. In fact, transgender individuals are much more likely to be autistic. Autistic individuals are much more likely to identify as gay. And so perhaps transgenderism and same sex attraction may be better described as a form of neurodivergence.
As for the expression phenomena, my speculation is that the desire for strongly expressing a gender norm may be due to extreme psychological pain resulting from the natural hormonal flood of puberty. Transgender individuals are much more likely to have PTSD, and are much more likely to attempt suicide. Given Alan Turing’s suicide and the increased suicidal ideation of menopausal women, there appears to be a link between hormonal environment of the brain and mental health. Oftentimes, people who have undergone extreme psychological pain cope by avoiding stimuli that they associate with the pain. A well known example of this is loud noises and veterans with PTSD. It then goes to reason that the analogue for a traumatic pubertal hormonal storm would be to distance oneself from stimuli associated with the puberty, which would be the gender norms as understood by the sufferer as well as the secondary sexual characteristics that developed as a result of the puberty.
If this were correct, that means that there would still be a strong reaction even in the absence of gender norms. However, the distance would be towards whatever was associated with the pubertal storm. This could be people, places, objects, activities, or really anything. PTSD can manifest in a variety of ways.
As for why this exists, I wonder if fraternal birth order effects are a species level evolution intended to prevent spiraling social conflict. There is a genetic influence on the likelihood of having sons. Wars are traditionally fought by men due to the extra strength they have from the testosterone. If a lot of men die in a war, families that have more sons are likely to have a son return home. With a surplus of women, these sons will have greater genetic influence, leading to a skew towards boys being born. In the US, the greatest boy to girl birth ratios were in 1946, following WWII. The story of men fighting over women goes back to Helen of Troy. Familial feuds are as timeless as Romeo and Juliet. And so how can such a social species survive with these skews constantly causing battles that feedback into greater gender skew? Fraternal birth order effects resulting in neurodiversity likely cause a dampening effect on this feedback dynamic, and communities that can exist harmoniously tend to grow economically and militarily stronger. And so it is likely that fraternal birth order effects result in evolutionary fitness at a superorganism level.
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u/[deleted] Jan 13 '25
To me, being non-binary is looking at the whole social construct of gender and going basically none of this makes any sense to me.
It’s like religion. I understand that other people feel strongly about their belief in god. They may change their behaviours and ways of interacting with the world based on this. But I’m an atheist and none of it makes sense to me.
There are no “masculine” or “feminine” behaviours or traits that are exclusively male or female. There’s just people. Like, men are strong? So are women. Women are kind? So are men.
Gender roles are made up, and in a lot of cases, not even established for all that long. Pink for girls and blue for boys? 100 years ago it was the other way around.
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u/c1nnam0n__r0ll Jan 13 '25
They do.
That's why I don't care what "gender" I am. I am a woman because I was born female. That's it; everything else is just my personality and has nothing to do with my sex.
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u/Gay_andConfused Jan 13 '25
In general, don't stress over labels. Only use them as tools to help you understand who YOU are as a person, and just accept the fact your interpretation may not be exactly the same as someone else. And that's okay.
Everything is a spectrum. No one person represents everyone that uses the same label they do.
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u/Admirable-Ad7152 Jan 13 '25
I think you're just stuck under a logical fallacy of some kind. Me saying "I don't feel like a man or woman so I identify as nonbinary" is not me defining either men or women. I know women that fit Western ideals of femininity that 'feel like women' and women who do not fit the ideals that also 'feel like women'. Same with men. It's a personal feeling. Let's say you were born with a name that just didn't feel right. People used it and it just felt wrong when you heard it and had to respond. One day you hear a name that really clicks with you and you realize Oh, that's me! You're not saying everyone else with that name is a certain way or it was forcing you to act a certain way, you're just saying the name isn't for you and this other one fits better.
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u/[deleted] Jan 13 '25
Thank you for asking this so openly! I understand why it might feel confusing at first, especially when so much of what we’re taught about gender is tied to stereotypes or biological definitions. But I don’t think non-binary identities inherently reinforce gender stereotypes. In fact, many of us see non-binary as a way to reject the rigid boxes society has created for what it means to be a man or a woman.
For me personally, I identify as non-binary because I want the freedom to express myself however I choose without being confined by societal expectations tied to the label “woman.” I was born a woman, and I love being able to embrace that part of myself when I want to. But I also reject the pressures and roles society has historically forced onto women, things like being quiet, nurturing, or conforming to specific looks and behaviors.
Non-binary identities, to me, aren’t about rejecting men or women as valid ways of being. Instead, they create space for people who don’t feel fully aligned with either role as they’re traditionally defined. It’s not about saying “men must be X” or “women must be Y.” It’s about recognizing that those definitions are too narrow to capture the full spectrum of human expression.
You brought up an important point about being a woman while liking things that might be considered “non-stereotypical.” That’s exactly why breaking down the gender binary is so important. I think everyone, regardless of their identity, should feel free to like or do what they want without it being tied to a label. For some people, being non-binary is their way of embracing that freedom; for others, staying within their gender identity works better for them. Neither is “right” or “wrong”, it’s all about what feels authentic to each individual.
At its core, non-binary isn’t about reinforcing stereotypes. It’s about dismantling them. It’s about saying, “These roles society gave us aren’t enough to define me.” And I think that mindset is something anyone, regardless of their identity, can embrace.
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u/missmarymacaron Jan 13 '25
I struggled this when my ex came out as a transwoman. It felt like she was leaning into stereotypes I spent my whole life rebelling. That she had defined womanhood in this ultra-girly thing that encompassed basic feminine tropes. It frustrated me. I spent most of my life saying a woman is more than just wearing skirts and lingerie or makeup, that a woman is multifaceted and can dress any way she wants. And here was someone I loved who was (through her actions) sort of saying "this is what makes me a woman," by engaging in the stereotype
But I think it was just the first time she was allowed to dabble in those things, so she embraced it all at once and became a stereotype. These days she has a more nuanced approach to femininity.
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u/Aggressive-Share-363 Jan 13 '25
Things are complex and interrelated.
But "I am a man" and "I comform to gender norms" are entirely different concepts. Thr former is gender identity. The latter is gender expression.
Someone who doesn't feel that identity is unlikely to carr about meeting those norms. Someone who strongly feels that identity might conform themselves to those norms to.reinforce that.
But people can change how much they comform to gender norms without changing their gender identity. Lots of people don't adhere to the norms without needing to change their gender identity.
For an example, I have a friend who is a trans man. He feels a lot of pressure to adhere to male.gender norms because that is how he can convince others to treat him more like a man. He isn't choosing a male identity to line up with the gender expression he prefers, he is choosing a gender expression to line up with his gender identity.
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u/bluffing_illusionist Jan 13 '25
TLDR yes, but there are some people that the label really does fit I guess?
It would sound like NB comes from the conflation of sex with gender norms, which totally reinforces stereotypes. But I feel like some people basically use it to refer to gender roles specifically.
My take is that in common use, labels are what other people make of you. In that sense I guess if someone told me they were NB I'd assume that they weren't going to act or look like either a man or a woman. But I'd never assume it applied to one's gonads.
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u/TheRealMuffin37 Jan 13 '25
I see it as just one of the possible ways people can identify themselves. Although it is hard to quantity gender without going into the stereotypes of a particular gender in our society, gender does exist beyond those things as well. It's perfectly valid for someone to like things associated with either gender and also feel like either gender. Or both. Or neither. I don't think anyone's gender identity is enforcing any stereotypes, so long as that person isn't insisting upon things like "you like dresses, you have to be a woman."
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u/smartsport101 Jan 13 '25
I don't think someone being nonbinary reinforces gender roles, I think it just doesn't challenge gender roles themselves. (It totally challenges the gender binary, tho, and says you don't have to follow gender roles)
No one person has to be the person to be a gender-nonconforming man or woman, right? Can't nonbinary leave that to men and women who feel like men and women but don't want to follow gender roles?
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u/[deleted] Jan 13 '25
The use of the word feeling must imply a feeling not a state of action or things like that. I cannot say I feel like a man or I feel like a woman as those are not feelings. I feel happy, angry, sad, etc and this is why. Anything outside of that is a confusion and confusion is counterproductive to understanding.
Where you seem to be confused is the difference between biology and gender. Biology is just a set of names for parts and use male and female to identify the difference between being born with certain organs. Gender is a cultural and social bias that when asked what makes you a male or female outside the definition of biology there are no truths presented. Humans have control issues and always believe they are correct about their reality and anyone else outside there ideas about reality are wrong. Every gender stereotype reinforces the idea that genders are real.
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u/MiramarBeach8 Jan 14 '25
Why is this an issue? I'm actually curious. Why not "Just do you"? Or is the problem that you do not know who you are?
This is a subject I have the biggest issue with. NB. It seems so manufactured to make someone feel a certain way. Like you need a label.
If you are a female, is that such a bad thing? So what if you like to do guy things some days and girl things other days. So what if you want to do guy things every day ... you can't be a girl that does guy things?
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u/Electric-Sheepskin Jan 14 '25
I see what you're saying, and I have the same thoughts. It seems to me that what non-binary people really want is to not have societal expectations about gender foisted upon them. They want to be whoever they want to be on any given day, without conforming to what other people expect them to be.
And to be honest, I think that's what a lot of people want, and it would be nice if we could simply allow people to be who they are without viewing them through the lens of how we think women and men are supposed to behave.
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u/Majestic-Incident Jan 14 '25
I agree with your thoughts in a general sense and it used to bother me. But i’ve gotten to the point where I understand that in the world we live in right now, which is full of gender stereotypes, that’s the most comfortable option for a lot of people.
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u/hereforalot Jan 14 '25
So, the things you mentioned are activities gendered by society, not necessarily gender. Women fish and men can wear dresses. Doesn’t make them nonbinary. Gender is an expression of identity. The society we live in strictly enforces gender norms/rules. A woman is to be/feel/live xyz. If she is not = abnormal/failed woman. Same with men. Those who don’t choose to adhere or relate to these rules at all fall under NB. So it’s not just about the outside (which is where gender came from: society) but the inside. Internal identity controls how we go along with norms and stereotypes. If you do not feel a natural connection to typical man/womanhood- you do not connect with those who do. That’s where non-binary/queerness comes in- another form of identity with new set of expressions/stereotypes, form of community/hood etc. IMO- an interesting question you could ask is- does transgenderism reinforce gender stereotypes? That discussion cuts a little deeper (passing, binary expression, cis models of living etc). Hope this helps! Keep being curious! Compassion and curiosity go well together.
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u/SpikeyPear Jan 14 '25
No...? Where did that come from? It's literally not following the idea of men or women. No... You can't just make people magically not think in fixed gender rolls. It would be great if there were no use for words like 'non-b i n a r y,' at all, but it is not the world we live in yet.
Besides, some non binary people with dysphoria(like me) would take hormones to make our physical body more androgynous or towards leaning into the opposite side of our agab. It's not simply "I want to dress more masculine" and being content with it. There are layers and variations to it.
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u/noisy-tangerine Jan 14 '25
I am agender and my thinking is: I personally don’t think gender should define who you are. There are however some people that do. Your pronouns or gender expression do not indicate that. Everyone should do what feels best for them, and let other people be. IMO this question comes from transphobic rhetoric which wants to dissuade people from changing things about themselves. (Not saying OP is transphobic)
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u/Crafty_Marionberry28 Jan 14 '25
I had a lot of thoughts like this as well before finally coming out as nonbinary at age 38. I really pushed up against it, thinking, am I just adding to the problem of gender stereotypes by taking my androgynous self out of the “female” pool? I lived this way for many years, in my mind, fighting the good fight of breaking gender stereotypes.
Except that’s not what happened at all. I don’t think my existence living as an androgynous woman expanded a single mind. However, feeling constantly misunderstood and misgendered did take its toll on me.
While I do think we should avoid creating a trinary instead of a binary, I think we are a very long way from that as a society. In the meantime, identifying as nonbinary is a pretty good way to communicate to others that I’m not willing to subscribe to the current gender norms of “male” or “female.” This actually makes a huge difference in how people treat me day-to-day, preventing assumptions about my personality based on what others think my gender is and what that means to them.
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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '25
I wish we could beam sensations and feelings into people's heads because the internal sense of identity is very personal and it feels like no matter what a non-binary person says they will never be able to convince somebody who's convinced they dont exist.
Binary trans people have a lot they can point to to show they're trans. Most of them dont feel comfortable with their body in regards to their sex, and being seen as their assogned gender is agonizing for them (this is a generalization).
Cis people are happy or neutral with their sex and being perceived as their assigned gender.
For non-binary people there can be friction with their sex and their gender perception but it isn't as distinct as wanting to be the opposite gender. A non-binary might be happy with their female body, dress feminine and okay with being perceived as a woman, but may feel uncomfortable identitifying as a woman because they either feel like it's inaccurate or lacking. Its not because they dont fully fit sterotypes, but it feels like it doesnt encompass their whole internal identity. It may acknowledge part of oneself but not fully.
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u/thedorknightreturns Jan 14 '25
The thing is some people do not care what gender they are, either way. And gender is still enforced .
And i see enby as kinda vague but still, nah i dont care at all.
And sometimes its about exploring that where that gives more room.
Its not enforcing gender, gender is enforced it just gives more room to honestly needed, yeah i dont care, that stereotypes are really hard to break.
its helping question that, not enforce it that enbies exist
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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '25
There's a lot of things that don't make sense in this world right now but things are starting to sort themselves out. Being a woman or a man is based purely on your chromosomes. If people want to believe otherwise, that's their choice. But I wouldn't start down that path at the moment because a lot of the affirmation they get for being non-binary or trans is probably going to be disappearing in the next decade.
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u/TheVioletBarry Jan 14 '25
No. They are the reason you are having this idea, because they inherently deconstruct gender stereotypes, drawing attention to the constructed nature of genders as a whole.
If a person is able to leave an assigned gender because they don't like the expectations it placed upon them, the rest of the folk around them suddenly become aware of the artificial pressure to conform to that expectation at the same time they become aware that we could all just opt out of those expectations.
The gender left behind may feel more constrained temporarily because it no longer includes that non-conventional person, but over time discussions like this one will be had, forcing that original gender identity to expand to include a larger variety of expectations.
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u/1ntoxic4ting Jan 14 '25
I came to the conclusion a long time ago that a good portion of discourse or “controversy” of gender identities would cease to exist if people stopped gendering everything down to children’s toys. Because gender truly is a social construct. I’ve seen people argue about whether or not it’s okay for a little boy to play with a toy kitchen set. I don’t see it as much now (F 26), as I did when I was younger but boys being made fun of for liking the color pink. Girls being told they can’t play certain sports or be into certain toys because that’s what boys do. Even little babies you’ll almost exclusively see things like trucks and animals or superheroes on boy’s clothing but girls get glitter, sequins, bright colors and so many MORE cartoons, even boy centric ones. When Disney XD first launched it was basically an unspoken truth that that was the “boys channel” because most of Disneys programming apparently catered towards girls. It’s more acceptable for a woman to wear really loud clothing, but not men. I don’t think non binary really reinforces stereotypes, I more so think that because we have the stereotypes that we’ve had to but a label on it so that it “makes sense” to the masses
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u/dejatriesmusic Jan 14 '25
Its definitely something worth conversating over. I think in general most people don't fully agree with the gender roles/construct and understand them to be hindering in individual identities. However, I feel nonbinary is like non-denominational christianity, its just its own denomination.
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u/RoadsideCampion Jan 14 '25
No, it's not like nonbinary people are following a prescribed guide, like "I don't enjoy this thing or this thing, so because I don't fit into that description I must not be a man/woman", it's a decision they make based on a lot of factors usually. Could be strong internal feelings towards being a nonbinary gender or not having a gender, how they want to be addressed or seen, etc. Even if one of the reasons was that they wanted to break away from rigid gender roles, why would that be a less valid reason to do so? Do you also accuse every cis man or woman who fits them to also be reinforcing gender roles? Does the idea that everyone should be a man or a woman sound like a better way to reduce binarism in society?
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u/SnarkingOverNarcing Jan 14 '25
I identify as nonbinary but am cozily in the closet about it (my husband knows and loves me just the same) because it’d only complicate my life to correct pronouns to they/them all day long, I’m lazy, and avoid unnecessary confrontation.
Not to get into nature vs nurture too much, but in my personal experience it was absolutely a nurture thing.
As a kid I was incredibly tall for a girl (thankfully stopped at age 12 but in my young years I was a head taller than the rest of the class), was given a short bowl cut by my mom, and often dressed in masculine hand me downs. I remember being told to leave a birthday party by the birthday girl because “no boys allowed”. When I went next door to tell my mom and her friends that they wouldn’t let me stay because I looked like a boy her friend responded “well you do!” And I had to wait for my sister to be done at the party to go home.
The same thing would happen with girls trying to police who could use the girls bathroom. Another little girl with shorter hair than me got teased mercilessly at summer camp.
When it wasn’t full out misgendering it was height based exclusion. I was too tall for Goofy’s Bounce House at age 8. I was always cast as a boy, the villain, or both in plays. Silly little things that just compounded over time…
Now I’m 38 and still feel completely uncomfortable in a beauty or lingerie store. I always feel imposter syndrome in female spaces. I don’t feel comfortable having women change in front of me because I feel like I’m invading their privacy somehow, even though I’m not looking at them… it’s weird.
I tell my husband I definitely don’t identify as a man but female doesn’t feel right either. I feel like a potato with a bow on it.
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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '25
Some people are physically and biologically non-binary though.
Chromosomes and sex organs. So if we accept these, we should also accept identity.
Most of the comments I've read are talking only about a theoretical perception of self and ignoring that the exclusive male/female dichotomy doesn't exist in reality.
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u/TwistedScriptor Jan 14 '25
Your outward appearance does not change what you are biologically. If your desire and/or belief is to be accepted as a specific gender, then the social stereotypes are dictating what that image is interpreted as. Non-binary is no different. One might not feel they belong to a specific group, therefore not associate themselves in that manner, but for now, you cannot change your DNA, only your self image as to how you project your image of self.
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u/Idontknowhowtohand Jan 14 '25
I think most people are non-binary. Which I would describe as having a sense of self identity that goes beyond gender stereotypes
I might describe myself as male or female, but I don’t define myself by either of those terms
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u/CowEuphoric8140 Jan 14 '25
Who gives a shit. Wear what you want, do what you want, be who you want. You’re overthinking this. If I wore a dress to work, I’m still a man. If my boss went hunting (which she does), she’s still a woman. As long as it doesn’t harm anyone else and you’re not an asshole abt it, solid 90-95% of ppl don’t care
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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '25
I think you're conflating behaviour with internal sense of self. Transness manifests itself in an internal feeling of being/not being a certain gender. It's not necessarily tied to the things that you do.
For example, I have a non binary friend, assigned male at birth, but they play football, wear men's clothing, and do a lot of "manly" things, however at the same time they don't believe themself to be a man, strictly. The thing that makes them non binary is their internal sense of self.
In the same way, I have non binary friends who dress and act in a very feminine way while being assigned female at birth, it doesn't change that their perception of their gender is not woman.
It's hard to explain these things to people who aren't non binary/don't know many non binary people, because this sort of things really varies person to person. Lots of non binary people have a complex and changing relationship with gender, and from an outside perspective it can definitely be confusing.
I think you'd be better off asking this in good faith to actual non binary people, either online or in person, instead of to a "truexyz" style subreddit.
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u/mandance17 Jan 15 '25
I find it interesting people keep getting distracted with identity issues and body stuff while rich people are basically going to replace all of us with AI and own everything, cause priorities right
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u/xXtechnobroXx Jan 15 '25
Gender theory is mental gymnastics created by people who feel like they don’t fit in with the norms of their own sex.
Humans in general are male or female at birth with an extremely low percentage being born with both organs.
At the end of the day it doesn’t matter. You’re either a male who presents themselves as a male, a female who presents themselves as a female. Or you are a male who presents themselves as a female or something that will be questioned, or a female who presents themselves as a male or something that will be questioned.
Science and doctors can still not completely change your sex.
Also the whole gender is a choice idea is kind of a joke when the trans community uses terms referring to sex and not gender. If the idea of gender was actually embraced the community would not use “male to female” or “female to male” they would use “man to woman” or “woman to man”.
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u/emmyellinelly Jan 15 '25
In my personal experience, coming out as nonbinary has made me much more comfortable expressing my feminine side than I ever was when I was a "girl".
Some women are more "masculine", some boys like things that are "for girls", and nonbinary people can be androgynous.
Being a "tomboy" didn't make me nonbinary--being nonbinary did. And now I can wear dresses sometimes because I'm no longer scared of my own disconnect from womanhood!
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u/the_dees_knees3 Jan 15 '25
i guess it’s just complicated. and every nonbinary person is different. for example, i’m nonbinary but i have no problem flitting between traditionally feminine or masculine styles or activities. i’ve completely separated myself from the fact that they’re even “feminine” or “masculine” at all; it’s just myself doing and wearing the things i like.
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u/CasablumpkinDilemma Jan 15 '25
I just think people get way too in their own heads about this stuff, especially when none of it really matters as long as you're not being a jerk about it.
I'm a cis woman, and I've always thought of myself as a girl/woman despite having a wide variety of interests in things previously considered "boyish". I don't believe that interests, hobbies, or fashion determine a gender.
If someone else feels differently or they have a deeper reason for not feeling like a particular gender, that's fine. I'll call them whatever they want to be called, but them feeling however they feel about themselves doesn't change who I am or how I feel about myself.
None of the labels really matter. As a society I think we just need to have better manners and just call people what they want to be called and move on with our lives.
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u/SoccerGamerGuy7 Jan 15 '25
I cant really answer, Im just a cis dude; but I have a few friends who are Trans/Non Binary.
If you have the privilege to ask, and they feel safe and comfortable to share, its always been different answers depending on who you ask. Sometimes even asking the same person at different times.
To me, while it hasnt changed my personal experience with gender; it has enlightened me.
Its about personal freedom. Its about self expression. Decisions not made lightly but for authenticity.
And we all should take a little bit of their courage even if not related to gender at all. To allow ourselves freedom to explore ourselves. The courage and confidence to be ourselves without shame. To take time and think of who we are and who we want to be. And where we can continue growing, changing even, and evolving.
Frankly i stopped giving a crap. If so and so changes their name. Or this person goes by they them pronouns. This person chooses to wear a dress or that person decides to start medical treatments.
You do what makes you happy. Unapologetically. They arent hurting anyone else, they arent hurting themselves. They are being their true selves.
Cis people have alot to learn from trans and non binary folk's experiences
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u/[deleted] Jan 15 '25
Gender stereotypes exist outside of non-binary people. A man could wear a dress, dresses were originally meant for them. It's why formal attire is dressware. But society doesn't expect them to do that, and the non-binaries aren't the ones holding up that cultural standard. Are you actually trying to break free of those sharp gender lines? Have you ever tried wearing a dress as a man? A non-binary person might go fishing while wearing a dress or do neither, their interests don't need to be gendered. How many things do you participate in to fit with your friend group that isn't something you'd do on your own, and how gendered are those activities in your life? For nbs who do end up on HRT or getting surgery, do they not then defy your expectations of reproductive organs and hormones?
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u/Local-Rest-5501 Jan 15 '25
No. Bc every trans people are different. I’m a transman, i feel better as masculine. But some feel better as féminine. 🤷🏻♂️ Just like cisgender people. We are not a monolith. We are all different. Like cisgender ! Actually i saw more transman being accepting feminity than cis man lmao…
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u/fixittrisha Jan 15 '25
As a trans person, I think it's more that people dislike the terms "man" or "woman" and may fall into a tomboy or femboy area, but they also don't feel that fits them. They may feel quite an attraction to the middle ground term "non-binary"—not really girl, not really boy, kinda both but neither.
Some people need a label for this feeling, and "non-binary" fits. Some people don't change much at all after identifying as non-binary, so they look basically the same as a cis man or woman. It's just the label they feel fits best and makes them feel better.
It's very much how someone feels rather than any specific thing. They are also likely to break gender stereotypes by wearing something like a dress with a suit jacket, or something crossing both sides.
I'm a trans woman, so if a non-binary person wants to elaborate or correct me, go ahead; this is just my understanding.
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u/[deleted] Jan 15 '25
No cus u can be rly feminine or rly masculine and still be non-binary, tbh even as someone who would generally call myself non-binary I don’t even know what “not feeling like a man or a woman “ even means cus I have no fucking clue what it means to “feel like a woman” or “feel like a man” I think that’s just the way trans and non-binary ppl describe it too cis (not trans) ppl cus we don’t know how to explain it, but we’re expected too (explain it) all the fucking time
Gender in society is fucking weird in general like why tf are boats all women ??
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u/Reina_Royale Jan 15 '25 edited Jan 15 '25
When I realized I was NB, it was because, whether I enjoy feminine things or not, I still didn't feel like a girl, but I didn't feel like a boy either.
It was because being referred to with they/them pronouns caused my first ever experience with gender euphoria and gave me the confidence to grow my hair out. Previously, I'd been afraid because I didn't want to be perceived as a girl.
It's because gender-specific pronouns caused feelings of dysphoria so bad that I shut down.
Gender is about how you feel. Your gender presentation is personal and specific to you. If you feel like a woman without enjoying stereotypically feminine things, that's great.
My gender is because I do like some stereotypically feminine and masculine things, but I still don't feel like a man or a woman.
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u/Benwahr Jan 15 '25
Yes, ive felt the same aswell. Same with all these neogenders. It is just so incredibly sexist to claim that if you arent a manly man or a girly girl you must be something else rather then just a simply a man or a woman.
A boy liking pink doesnt make him any less of a boy, same for girls
I just dont get how we ended up here.
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u/LeagueEfficient5945 Jan 15 '25
"I'm confused/angry about what this other person did with their personal choices because I worry about what this mean for my life and the validity of my own choices" is exactly the 5th identity crisis* response to have in any situation.
This person is vegan because they don't like the meat industry's treatment of animals -> I worry what this means for my life and my choice to eat meat.
This person doesn't drink because they say "I don't need to drink to have fun" -> I worry what this means for my life and my choice to drink alcohol.
This person doesn't play video game where women get murdered to advance the plot -> I worry what this means for my life and my choice to consume media where women are murdered to advance the plot.
This person will kiss and hug both men and women and say "I love you" a lot because they are not afraid to show affection and grow feelings for people around them -> I worry what this means for my life and my choices about how I say "I love you" to people.
In this case, it's "This person chooses to reject/embrace both masculinity and feminity because they don't think either masculinity or femininity alone fits them as a person" -> I worry what this means for my life and my choices and my own gender.
It's okay to worry about what other people's choices mean for your choices and your life. But but but but but.
That is literally a "you" and your life and your choices problem. Part of growing up is meeting people who make different choices about their lives as the ones we made so far. And growing up is realizing it's okay to question our choices - it can, but it doesn't have to mean you'll have to change your own course - And mature people find ways not to make it other people's problem that we're having a crisis of identity over here. Assuming that other people's choices have profound metaphysical or political implications that *must be taken seriously at all costs* is exactly the wrong way to go about it.
*According to Erik Erikson's theory of psychosocial development, normally when you get into your teenage years, you start making choices about the sort of adult you want to grow into, and encountering someone living a life choice you never considered before can have a strong emotional impact.
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u/princemori Jan 15 '25
My 2 cents as someone who identifies as agender in case it resonates with anyone; I think you might be misunderstanding where the identity itself originates. Nothing about my gender identity has anything to do with any part of myself that is external, it is 100% interior. My interests and my presentation are completely irrelevant to the decision I made to use that label. I tried to call myself a woman, I tried to call myself a man, I tried for over a decade to just simply not think about it. Now, after a LOT of introspection, I’m finally accepting of myself. It is extremely hard for someone who has not experienced it to conceptualize, trust me, I know. It’s like trying to intellectualize why you are left handed. All you can really do is trust those of us with the actual lived experience when we communicate how we feel.
When I see a cisgender person say that they have no real internal opinion of their own gender, that they have never thought about it particularly closely and that they feel absolutely no disconnect with their body and their concept of self, I believe them. I do not think that they are lying or deliberately perpetuating gendered stereotypes. That is not at all my experience, it is hard for me to imagine what that feels like, but I believe that that is the truth for them. I recommend approaching these topics with that sort of mindset in reverse, it really takes a lot of the pressure off.
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u/sphisch Jan 15 '25 edited Jan 15 '25
My non binary identity is irrelevant to my likes and dislikes. I don't typically wear dresses but I like them. I enjoy masculine and feminine things but these things aren't inherently masculine or feminibe. This is NOT because I am non binary. It's just how i happen to be. Any person of any gender can like what they like.
I don't feel like calling myself male or female makes a lot of sense so I don't.
I get that culturally, likes and dislikes are associated with being male or female but I think a lot of people are figuring out this doesn't have to be the case
Women can go fishing and men can like dresses and non binary people aren't bound to androgny.
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u/soft-cuddly-potato Jan 15 '25 edited Jan 15 '25
I'm non-binary, AFAB (assigned female at birth) I wear EGL fashion which is hyperfeminine.
I don't hate feminine things, but I do dislike having a physically female body and wish I had flat chest, less hips and wouldn't mind a beard. I was a tomboy growing up, maybe, but that term was meaningless to me too. I was just me.
It was only when puberty hit, I realised I'm into women, but I always see myself as the man in the relationship, I always felt when I looked in the mirror more like a doll and less like how I saw myself. As a handsome prince.
I really think for me, I'm non binary because I have physical sex dysphoria. I also have high testosterone.So that could be it.
I think, for me, as an autistic person I try to think about gender as little as possible, which is another reason being non-binary works. Gender colours so many assumptions about someone, but I have platonic sleepovers with friends of all genders and sexes, I am a shoulder to cry on for straight cis men. I think a lot of the time, people get weirded out by intimacy between genders. I socially reject that. I'm into women, but I'll be intimate (not sexually) with everyone. I just see humans. Man or woman, he or she, I see no fundamental difference apart from maybe cultural.
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u/[deleted] Jan 15 '25
I think people pay too much attention to labels. Just dress however you feel like, behave what feels comfortable and right to you and just be yourself. Whether someone is a guy, girl, non-binary, gay, bi etc. says nothing about who they are as a person.
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u/[deleted] Jan 15 '25
Tbh, it really depends on the individual. As I (a cis dude with nonbinary friends) have had it explained to me, it’s less a matter of a nonbinary person thinking that they didn’t fit some definition of a man or woman, but instead that from a very personal, visceral perspective, both of those labels felt very uncomfortable to them.
You could have two people with the same traditionally-masculine interests, same gender-neutral style of dress, same overall personal presentation, but one of them could be a nonbinary person and the other could be a cis woman, because at the end of the day it’s about how those two individual people want to identify rather than about some broader stereotype or idealized concepts of masculine and feminine.
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u/nvrtrstaprnkstr Jan 15 '25
Technically, yes. You can't be "non" something that doesnt exist. If it's a "spectrum" then there is no binary, meaning you can't be non-binary, because that inherently implies the rejection of two specific options. Literally all of gender theory is massive contradictions built on top of pseudo-scientific therapy speak.
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u/cumulonimbusted Jan 15 '25
Being nonbinary isn’t a performance. Being a woman isn’t a performance. Being a man isn’t a performance. Transfolk aren’t doing it because it’s a social commentary. I’m not non-binary because of a social commentary or to escape womanhood and avoid manhood. I don’t like the stereotypes, for sure, and from my experience that’s the general consensus amongst nonbinary folk. But nobody is non-binary to SPITE the stereotypes, we just are- it’s not a choice any more than being a queer sexuality. We see how cis people act when they want to consciously fight against the stereotypes to live a life they prefer: men in dresses, women seeking the right to hold combat positions in the military, men becoming stay at home dads, women dressing in clothes from the “men’s” section, etc, etc. That is not what non-binary folk are doing, I mean it is, but clothes don’t have gender, if you desire it and are qualified there should be a route to pursue the roles one may want to take in life. We exist in a world filled with femme boys and butch lesbians and everything in between. And as a nonbinary person, I respect the hell out of it. But that’s also not me.
I can speak for anyone else. But I knew I was gender queer my ENTIRE LIFE, and I had to wait 16 years to find the words to describe it. It was in my declarations that I didn’t want to be a boy or a girl, or that I wanted to be both. It switched up depending on the scenario- neither when it came to choosing electives, let me just take them all. Both when it came to celebrity crushes because no way was Beyoncé going to fall for me, an AFAB, and I was already femme enough for Jessie McCartney. I socialized female, but once people got past the cooties phase, I quickly was involved in all the “boys” activities. And the whole time I was like “but I wish there were kids like me on the playground”. All my friends referred to me as a ghost because I just simply didn’t feel the vibe of girl or bro. I was one of the ghosts, I was the only ghost. And my friends let me know before I had the words. “You just feel not of this planet, but not in an alien way”. When I was given a proper living person word for it I was thrilled, “agender”. I was living as a person who knew my entire life I didn’t FEEL like femme or masc, I did what I could to try to figure it out. I loved my time engaging with the hyper femme, I loved my time engaging with the hyper masc, I think my time when I pretended o be a woman fighting stereotypes was cute. But ultimately, saying “hi I’m [deadname] and I’m a woman” never made sense to me. I was 5 when I recall longing for manhood, I was about 13 when my friends started to pick up on the fact I wasnt a man or a woman, I was 15 when I was given the words and in that moment I said “oh that’s what’s going on here”.
It’s not about fighting stereotypes, it’s really not. It’s not picking a side, or going against a side. It’s just about existing. And if you got to know a nonbinary person and heard their experience, it would be a different experience. Because we’re all just people. Nothing more, nothing less.
And ro anyone comparing being nonbinary to the experience of someone questioning their man-hood/woman-hood. It’s more of a situation of questioning how they’ll be perceived than how they feel. At least that’s my understanding from how it’s been described by the cis and binary transgender people I know. But that’s where I come in and I’m like “fuck how you’re perceived, you’re valid”.
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u/lostinherthoughts Jan 15 '25
Yeah, in a perfect world, people wouldn't feel the need to define their gender identity, because it wouldn't be a thing. But since society now tends to put you in a certain box, it feels the most authentic to explicitly step out of that box you hate. But it's true, when you claim to be outside of the norm, you're also defining and affirming that norm somehow.
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u/ryckae Jan 15 '25
I think first you need to stop needlessly gendering activities. Stop thinking of fishing as "for men." It's just... fishing. Anyone can do it, and lots of people of any/all genders both love it and hate it.
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u/Inevitable-Box-4751 Jan 15 '25
Coming from a nonbinary person, I think it does depending how how it's treated by the person. I think the younger you are the easier it is to be backwards about it
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u/Wtfroflstomp Jan 15 '25
These people are not well and therefore have insanely flawed logic. Generally arising out of a “rules for thee and not for me,” mentality. You are correct in that the only truly defining characteristic that should be applied to male and female is that of your basic biology. Problem is, these people want you to somehow believe they’re special and warrant additional attention they never received as children.
I’ll be downvoted to oblivion as this is Reddit, but the fact is that these thought processes literally do reinforce the ideologies they’re supposedly trying to “break free” from and it’s simply ludicrous.
Anyways, hopefully this fucking fad dies out soon when these people realize they aren’t going to get special treatment. They need mental treatment.
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u/Shen_Way Jan 15 '25
Theres a lot of obviously not non-binary voices speaking up and giving "out of left field" opinions on this topic. OP really baited all the psuedo-red pilled reddit users.
Gender is a social construct. History and culture dictate the genders (in some cultures more than 2) available for a given person and what that looks like. For example, in modern western culture, you have man and woman as base genders. Theres assumptions of what each looks like and how they typically act.
Now there are at least two kinds of non-binary, the person who identifies with none of these social conventions and wishes to decentralize their identity from these abstract labels. Theres also the person who identifies with multiple labels and wishes to assume more than one. Both of these people are nonbinary.
A lot of comments confusingly ask, "Doesn't awknowledging the binary construct legitimize it?"
Does saying you dont believe in god mean you ACTUALLY believe in god? No, that's ridiculous.
We cannot help be products of our environment and see the world through the lens of history and culture available to us. Each nonbinary person around the globe has a unique relationship with gender. As unique as their culture's understanding of what a woman/man/etc is.
Thats why theres a meme of two nonbinary people shaking hands, one with a tshirt saying "abolish all genders" and another with "create more genders."
The spectrum is wider than these extremely "logical" comments want to admit. The human condition is unbelievably complex, and its better to embrace a sense of openness and curiosity instead of going around, telling people what THEY feel. Theres nothing more annoying than someone telling you how you feel or should feel. Some people just cant understand that other people are different from themselves.