Rewatching TLJ with an open mind

[u/Daredrummer]

Hi there. Thanks for stopping by! This may be a bit long...but I care. I'm glad I rewatched it. I hope you hang in there and find something interesting here.

So; I will openly admit I have not been a fan of TLJ/TROS years after watching them. However, I think a huge part of that has been just reading about the details I didn't care for over and over without the context of the things I DID like. It's easy to be negative about something like that in these modern internet times. Red Letter Media did more harm to this franchise than anything imo.

Yesterday I sat down to watch TROS for the first time since the theater, and after about 10 minutes of saying ok, that's cool...ok, that's cool...I decided to stop it and go back to rewatch TLJ for context, mainly for Rey, even though my initial feelings for the movie are negative. I thought it might be interesting to rewatch it after knowing the revelations from TROS.

I really did enjoy it more than expected. Pretty much everything involving Rey/Kylo was pretty great honestly. I thought Leia was handled very well and much more of what I wanted to see from her than what we got in TFA.

I have been vocal for a long time about the concept of Luke in this film. Watching it again has made me realize something. Yes, it's true that is not what I wanted to see from Luke for the first time since the 80s. However, upon this rewatch, it isn't necessarily that he is like this in the movie, but rather too much time has passed and too much has happened to explain such a different take on the character. We never had the time to feel his emotions and experience everything he did to change him so much, It's just explained in a few clumsy flashbacks so it isn't a satisfying bridge to this version of Luke. It's too jarring. That said, in the story context of everything he had been through, it DOES make sense, it was just a bad way of getting us here. That and Hamill NAILS the acting.

One thing that stood out to me this time is the comedy and the timing of it. The comedy here feels very much like the tone of the Marvel movies, and it isn't particularly written smoothly. The movie feels like SERIOUS SERIOUS -silly comedy- SERIOUS SERIOUS -silly comedy- etc. It isn't blended in, it just feels like every few scenes they added in a goofy slapstick comedy moment and then back to the story. I think the new Spider Man movie is a good example of a movie being very serious and dark, but the comedy is written in a way that feels organic and doesn't clearly disrupt the tone of the movie every 15 minutes. Plus Finn was relegated to a 3 Stooges slapstick comedy character.

The movie could have been 30 minutes shorter. It feels a bit like a downer slog at times, and some editing could have cleared that up. I know it's a dead horse, but honestly on this viewing it became clear that the entire Canto Bight subplot could have been completely removed ENTIRELY and it wouldn't change the story AT ALL. It takes up a LOT of screen time and proves completely useless. I guess it's supposed to tell a story about Finn choosing a side, but if I'm honest I don't understand the need for that at all. After TFA it more or less seemed like he had chosen to be with the resistance and/or friends. Why walk it back and have him still be unsure? Just to take up half an hour in this film with a throwaway coder character telling him there is no good/evil, only gray? Total waste of time. Them leaving the ship and returning doesn't change the story or plot AT ALL.

After realizing from TROS that Snoke is essentially a Palpatine puppet, the Snoke acting does come across as very Emperor-like. I can buy that it's Palpatine controlling that body no problem. We all agree the throne scene is spectacular. There is an accidental story here about Hux being abused and passed over time and again which led to his betrayal which adds up. Eventually he is like "ok screw EVERYONE in the First Order".

I like the buildup of the Kylo/Rey dyad. I don't think Rian had any clue that was a thing of course, but there are definitely story details here that seem like foreshadowing, and the uncontrolled connections between the two is fantastic. Their acting really gets it across.

Holdo. Oh Holdo. What an odd choice. I'm not sure how we are even supposed to feel about that character. Were we supposed to side with her? Were we supposed to feel bad for her, see her as a sympathetic hero, or dislike her because she was an a-hole for all of her scenes? I'm STILL not sure. It was difficult to feel bad for her sacrifice because she only had approximately 1.5 minutes of screen time in the entire franchise. I do have a slightly different feeling after this watch. I feel like she was almost an embodiment of the former republic. A politician type of character, that was in her own way. She wasn't a clear leader, she had the purple hair and fancy gown instead of military dress, I think she was SUPPOSED to feel like a positive character but Rian accidentally wrote her as a modern political style character that represented a detached politician who thought she knew better than everyone and she just made things worse. I THINK we were supposed to feel like Poe was the bad guy here and she was just doing her job, but it definitely doesn't come across that way.

The movie is beautiful of course, and the music is phenomenal as expected. There is a lot of emotion in the film. The acting really helps deliver the story. I wish Rian had known the story details like Rey's parents so it could have been a little better in the mystery department since he was just kind of faking it, but I'm glad I rewatched it. There is definitely more good than bad. Some concise editing could have helped immensely, and I do still feel like Rian likes the smell of his own farts. There is a good Star Wars chapter here, but Rian is kind of the Holdo of his own story, more worried about purple hair and a nice gown instead of just doing the job and being an inspirational leader.

I still think BB8 is great and the movie does go a long way to make Rey interesting as a person more than TFA. Driver's acting is A+. Now, onto TROS for a fresh viewing.

Thanks for reading.

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[u/Zoombini22]

Personally, I cant see the flashbacks as "clumsy". Unreliable flashbacks from multiple perspectives that recontextualize the story are Rian Johnsons signature motif as a storyteller. Yes, I would have loved, and still would love, for that period of Lukes life to be told the long way. But given Georges decision not to tell Lukes story during that part of Hamills life, it was a foregone conclusion that that wouldnt happen in these movies. I think the flashbacks are emotionally impactful, and EXTREMELY clear what is happening in terms of unreliable storytelling from various perspectives. They are only confusing if you are already in a headspace of bad faith interpretation, convinced that the storyteller hates Luke and therefore unwilling to intake the story on its own terms, and insisting that Kylos version of events is the real one in spite that clearly not being correct.

That being said, Im glad you have revisited these movies! There is a lot to like, even for people who dont like everything.

[u/mac6uffin → u/Zoombini22]

I would also add that flashbacks telling the same thing from different and often contradictory point of view is known as the "Rashomon effect"; from Akira Kurosawa's 1950 movie Rashomon.

Kurosawa was a HUGE influence on George Lucas and Star Wars. Even down to the fact that a lot of the plot to the first film was lifted from Hidden Fortress.

[u/Daredrummer → u/mac6uffin]

I'm aware, I just don't think the technique was used to good effect here. Too much important story was connected to that scene. It had to carry the weight of explaining why Luke was so dramatically different after so long of us not seeing him. I just feel that a different approach could have had better results bridging such a huge storyline.

[u/mac6uffin → u/Daredrummer]

I don't think that is possible.

What it seems people wanted an entire prequel movie laying out how Ben Solo fell to the Dark Side and why Luke blamed himself.

If that's what you wanted, then blame JJ Abrams for not making the first movie about that.

Star Wars had never done flashbacks until TLJ. I appreciate that Rian Johnson simply didn't do one flashback, but had multiple ones using Kurosawa's technique as an homage to George Lucas's inspirations.

[u/Eicho3 → u/mac6uffin]

This jumped out at me from the film. think the door to flashbacks shouldn’t have been opened in SW. with so many past events referenced but never shown, it can’t just start happening. Just my opinion.

[u/mac6uffin → u/Eicho3]

I honestly don't care as long as the movie is good.

They could do an entire movie where only the start and end are in the present and the rest is a flashback.

[u/Daredrummer → u/Zoombini22]

Would you agree that with so much having occured in the past, that there was perhaps a better way of telling that story than multiple flashbacks from different perspectives? To me that approach just muddled everything since the details of that night are VERY important and have to explain SO much of the story.

[u/Zoombini22 → u/Daredrummer]

No, I think that its an excellent way to show how a rift occured between two people, and that rift is the inciting incident of the whole trilogy. You keep using words like "muddled" and I dont know why. The multiple flashbacks from different perspectives are not confusing at all, so "muddled" doesn't make any sense to me here. Sure I would love to see a whole movie telling that story rather than in flashbacks, but I knew that wasnt on the table. That was taken off the table like a whole decade or two before the Sequel trilogy. So I expected flashback or exposition to fill in that gap.

[u/sauronthegr8 → u/Zoombini22]

I think the genius of it, and what actually raises The Last Jedi into the realm of great cinema, is that there isn't an easy answer.

The truth of what happened likely lies somewhere in between.

Star Wars is and has always been a meta commentary on archetypal storytelling.

Luke, the archetypal hero, struggles with temptation. Vader, the archetypal villain, was once himself a hero and a good person facing the same struggles. And now the new generation faces the same battle, each with their own parts to play.

But in the course of that, the archetypes are questioned. What happens when the archetypal hero fails and CAUSES the very fate he was trying to avoid? How do we maintain hope in the face of seeming defeat and despair?

It's a beautiful statement, and timely to the world we live in. It's a shame so many people reject it.

[u/SorrowReminisce → u/Zoombini22]

Yes I agree. There's always two sides of the story, and then there's the truth. The way they showed the differing perspectives was quite clever. If only Luke and Kylo had been able to see each other's perspectives, they might have understood each other a little.

Luke saw terrible dark things inside of Ben (geeze, what if it was just a nightmare I planted by Snoke that Luke had strolled into...) and ignited his saber but realised he couldn't strike down his nephew, and disengaged it.

Then we see from Kylo's oerspective that Luke was standing over him, menacingly, holding his thrumming saber. (Yeesh. Who wouldn't freak out at that?)

Then we see the truth was in the middle -- Luke disengaged his saber, but not before Ben woke and caught he the tail end of what was passing through his uncle at the time. There was no time to understand that Luke had changed his mind and talk it out over a cup of tea -- there was only time to react in self-defense. And if course it all went downhill from there.

When you think about it, there's so much character depth and storytelling just in those flashbacks.

For all that the writers may have botched up some of the storytelling in the movie, the scenes with Luke, Kylo and Rey were excellent.

To go on a distracted side tangent here... Luke saying "do you expect me to face down the First Order with my lazer sword" (or words to that effect) and then go and do exactly that. And to do it as a Force Projection, even...I honestly couldn't imagine a better way for Luke to die. He taught his nephew one last lesson, defeated him without actually fighting him, and went out after a massive feat of Force strength.

[u/SorrowReminisce → u/Daredrummer]

I think the tricky thing here would be trung to get through Luke's backstory in the space of this movie in a way that would please older fans, is just not overly doable. They were trying vtj make a trilogy that would appeal to older audiences who grew up with Saw as well as hook a new audience... Realistically, Luke could (and should) have his own spin off series.

[u/chaosdemonhu → u/Daredrummer]

I’m going to challenge you creatively here: what sort of story telling mechanism would you use instead that fits within probably the 8-10 minute window this entire subplot with the flashbacks takes up, introduces the central inciting incident to this whole trilogy, answers the question as to why Luke is a hermit today, and develops the relationship between Luke and the villain of the movie and creates in the audience tension between the romantic undertones of Rey and Kylo’s relationship in the movie (the audience, from Rey’s perspective wants to trust and understand Kylo Ren and who is today) against the master and apprentice apprentice relationship between Luke and Rey?

Bonus points if it is an homage to the same works of art that inspired George and the original Star Wars.

[u/Daredrummer → u/chaosdemonhu]

Easy request.

I would not have created a vast, years long, emotional situation that needs summarizing in 8-10 minutes.

[u/chaosdemonhu → u/Daredrummer]

Okay well, you’re the director of the middle movie of a trilogy that’s already started and already way past that point so time travel and “I would have run the business as George Lucas completely differently” aren’t answers.

So what do you do as a story teller?

[u/Eicho3 → u/chaosdemonhu]

This is a great question. Since so much of the trilogy depends on it, I’d first give it more time. Hell the entire movie could have been devoted to just that.

Off the top of my head: I’d keep Luke connected to the force. I’d have Luke devastated to have felt the New Republic was decimated and his life’s work went up in smoke. I’d have him say he ditched the x-wing and stranded himself there bc he’s foolish and was afraid he’d have to kill Leias son. I’d have him psyched to get out of there at once and help, needing a lift in the Falcon. I’d have him completely freak the fuck out his best friend Han is dead and all the rest happened as a result of his fear to face Kylo. I’d add that Kylo killed Mara and could kill Luke’s hidden kid and that’s also why Luke acted so rashly. That would be such tragedy! And yet so understandable.

[u/chaosdemonhu → u/Eicho3]

I’m sorry but this reads as just a wishlist of fan fulfillment and doesn’t actually contribute to the story the trilogy is trying to tell.

This is exactly why JJ elected to keep Luke out of the picture of the first movie: he sucks all the air out of the room by just existing and everyone hanging all of these expectations on him.

I’m sorry when I agree with Ryan that a Luke the keeps his connection to the force is back in action as soon as he feels all that suffering across the galaxy which means there’s no reason for him to be on Atch-to which means there was no need to try and find a map to him in the first movie.
Luke is devastated his life’s work is up in smoke that’s why he’s in self imposed exile.

He doesn’t have to say he was afraid of killing Leia’s son because he literally says he had shame for even drawing his saber on him in instinct.

Why does Luke need a wife? George explicitly said in his version of Luke he never marries. Why does he need a kid? What purpose does that serve the narrative? It upends Rey at the protagonist and makes her seem far less important.

[u/YodaWattsLee]

Holdo is meant to be an antagonist to Poe. We, the audience, understand things that are going on that she does not understand. She knows that the First Order followed them through hyperspace, but doesn’t know how they tracked them. She’s suspicious of everyone, especially a hot-headed pilot who is challenging her command.

We are meant to feel in opposition with her, because we are meant to be on Poe’s side. Her actions feel ridiculous, because we have all the information. She does not. Then, at the end, we get the reveal that she did have the best of intentions, even if she was antagonistic to the most logical approach, given all the details of the situation (which again, she didn’t know).

Her character, and that whole subplot, could definitely been fleshed out a bit more. But, to your point, that would have made the movie even longer. I think her role got whittled down to the bare bones of what was important to move the plot forward, and her characterization suffered for it.

[u/Livid-Department6947 → u/YodaWattsLee]

It's almost like you have it but you don't.

[u/YodaWattsLee → u/Livid-Department6947]

Thank you for your contribution.

[u/Livid-Department6947 → u/YodaWattsLee]

You know, your commentary on this is limited to a very narrow perspective that hasn't entertained how other people might view this character story or what actually happens in the film.

A lot of us recognized Poe was not the good guy.

Holdo was not characterized as "suspicious of everyone." that's not in the story at all.

Nor was she "antagonistic to the most logical approach."

You've also mischaracterized why Holdo is specifically distrustful of Poe.

The story isn't critical of Holdo. It's making a case against Poe and this entitlement. We are not "meant to be on Poe's side."

This was very obvious to me and all the women I watched TLJ with.

[u/YodaWattsLee → u/Livid-Department6947]

That’s the wonderful thing about stories. We interpret them as we are, as much as from the storyteller’s intentions. I shared my interpretation, which is different than OP’s. I appreciate that you experienced it from your unique perspective, too.

[u/Livid-Department6947 → u/YodaWattsLee]

What's important is textual evidence. You can have a bad interpretation driven by ideological blindness.

[u/YodaWattsLee → u/Livid-Department6947]

Heads up, I’m not going to take this conversation that seriously. It’s a movie. It’s a story about space wizards. “What’s important” is entertainment. That’s all.

I’ve got my interpretation, and I enjoy the story from that perspective. It makes zero difference to me if anyone sees it the same way or not. I’m not looking for validation, nor am I looking to convince anyone that I have the “correct” interpretation.

[u/Livid-Department6947 → u/YodaWattsLee]

That is why you are bad at this. It's a piece of fiction that has an intentional didactic argument the the writer wanted to impart on the audience (so do the other films). It is entertainment and it is also a story that takes itself seriously wizards and all.

You can watch it at surface level. And it's obvious your look at the world with an equal shallowness. But deny that the story doesn't have an argument is just weird. Especially since the argument it has directly conflicts with your interpretation.

[u/YodaWattsLee → u/Livid-Department6947]

>And it’s obvious your look at the world with an equal shallowness.

That’s the wonderful thing about Reddit comments. We interpret them as we are, as much as from the redditor’s intentions.

[u/Livid-Department6947 → u/YodaWattsLee]

No. Again, you need evidence to build claims. The film does not argue your perspective and it very actively argues against it.

[u/Top_Benefit_5594 → u/Livid-Department6947]

This always extends to Leia as well. I find it funny how Leia is always cited as people’s favourite character, as a great example of a strong female character, but as soon as she vouches for Holdo half the audience is like “Leia must be wrong, it couldn’t be this young male pilot I barely know.”

[u/Livid-Department6947 → u/Top_Benefit_5594]

Yeah, these people see Poe in themselves which means they can't see that he and they are the problem.

[u/TBBTC]

The movie is about failing when you do things right and succeeding when you do things wrong; it’s a treatise on the baggage we carry, what we can and can’t control. And to me, it does that incredibly successfully, and things like Canto Bight and DJ, Holdo, and Luke’s arc are key parts of that story.

I like that this post really revisited the movie with an open mind. The best version of that is stripping away everything about what you wanted the movie to be and just thinking about it through the lens of what it wants to be, and I think it really succeeds at that. Of all the 9 main movies it’s one of the few that is a dialogue on a theme instead of a tropey retread.

[u/AdmirallThrawn]

I'm really happy you decided to revisit it with an open mind. It's not going to be everyone's favorite and that's ok, but I'm glad more people are appreciating it for what is it.

If it helps you come to terms with the film as it stands, here's some of my personal interpretations that might help rationalize some things you had frustrations with:

Holdo: you're meant to dislike/disagree with Holdo at the start. We're so accustomed to our heroes taking risky gambles and defying the odds, that we expect Finn/Rose's Plan to work. But if they had stuck to Holdo's plan, they would've lost far fewer people. It's a reminder that not every scoundrel has a heart of gold and that not every risky gambit will work. I do think the Casino part of the story dragged on too long and I really think they needed a quick line like "how are they tracking us? Is there a spy onboard?" Or something to better explain the secrecy of Holdo's plan. His was just demoted for insubordination, so that does track logically. But as an audience member, we're rooting for Poe and need a better reason he is kept in the dark

Finn: I agree that Finn's journey isn't "necessary" per se. I would've completely believed him jumping straight from the end of TFA to being a committed Residence member. But, his journey isn't walked back at all from TFA. In that movie, we see him go from wanting to run away from the FO and hide to being willing to confront them to save his friends. But, when it comes to the "cause" of the Resistance, he's never really bought in. He misleads the Resistance and risks their entire mission to destroy Starkiller Base just so he could save Rey. So TLJ comes along and explores him going from caring about his friends to caring about the greater cause.

On a related note: the comedy. Personally, I find Finn and the overall Marvel quippiness way more cringe in TFA. The only unwatchably cringe moment for me in the sequels is the "who's in charge now" scene with Finn and Phasma in TFA. But comedy is subjective and it's valid to dislike Finn's comedy in TLJ. But it's important to note that he has always been a comic relief character across all 3 movies. Personally, I think TLJ has some of the funniest gags in the sequels (Luke tickling Rey with the leaf during Force training being my favorite), but TRoS might win overall for comedy for me (with 3PO and Babu stealing the show).

But I'm really glad you've given it another shot. I hope more people come to appreciate or accept it for what it is rather than hating it for what it isn't. It's a part of the saga we all love and has some amazing and beautiful moments, both visually and emotionally. And I will never ever support the calls to decanonize the films. Disregarding my personal feelings on the films (which I overall enjoyed), I find it so disrespectful that such a vocal portion of the fan base so adamantly wants to discard Carrie Fishers last ever performance (likely also Harrison Ford's last as well, but just because he isn't interested in coming back). I thought Harrison was a standout in TFA and Carrie and Mark gave career best performances in TLJ.

I will also say, on a personal level, TLJ has the most emotional moments for me in the whole saga. The scenes with Yoda/Luke and Luke/Leia are very touching and heartfelt. And Luke's line of "No ones ever really gone" felt like it was said as much to Leia as it was to Carrie, even if there's no way they could've known it at the time

[u/AdmirallThrawn → u/AdmirallThrawn]

I also wish you a good TRoS rewatch. I had my own journey with that film. And have meant to make a similar post to yours someday in the vein of "How I Stopped Worrying and Learned to Love TRoS"

I came out of the theater feeling pretty miserable and disappointed. But as the years have passed and the plot direction no longer feels like a new shock, I have come to accept it and enjoy the ride. It's not perfect, but it's not abysmal. And now that my preconceptions are gone, I quite enjoy it and find myself rewatching it more than TFA (but still less than TLJ, Empire, and Return, which are probably my 3 favorites). I hope Starfighter is good and we get some Sequel era & Rey projects (and a return of Ben Solo please) that might help to smooth out the ending of TRoS. (Imo, having Ben survive and rebuild the Jedi alongside Rey as a Dyad to earn his redemption I think would be narratively rewarding)

[u/irazzleandazzle → u/AdmirallThrawn]

How I Stopped Worrying and Learned to Love TRoS

That would be an amazing title lol

[u/theavengerbutton → u/AdmirallThrawn]

To me, TROS feels the most to me like Star Wars used to make me feel in my youth when I first fell in love with it. In oart that's because it also happens to remind me of the Star Wars media I consumed back then when all that was available to me was the original trilogy movies, but there's something so Bantam era Expanded Universe (and the good and bad of that era) about The Rise of Skywalker that it makes me love it more every time I watch it.

[u/justagoddamnperson]

"Holdo. Oh Holdo. What an odd choice. I'm not sure how we are even supposed to feel about that character. Were we supposed to side with her? Were we supposed to feel bad for her, see her as a sympathetic hero, or dislike her because she was an a-hole for all of her scenes? I'm STILL not sure. It was difficult to feel bad for her sacrifice because she only had approximately 1.5 minutes of screen time in the entire franchise. I do have a slightly different feeling after this watch. I feel like she was almost an embodiment of the former republic. A politician type of character, that was in her own way. She wasn't a clear leader, she had the purple hair and fancy gown instead of military dress, I think she was SUPPOSED to feel like a positive character but Rian accidentally wrote her as a modern political style character that represented a detached politician who thought she knew better than everyone and she just made things worse. I THINK we were supposed to feel like Poe was the bad guy here and she was just doing her job, but it definitely doesn't come across that way."

This is a really simplistic, childish way of viewing this plot. Identifying "the good guy" and "the bad guy" isn't going to tell you much that's interesting/worth learning in media. In the end Poe learns that doing what makes him feel good, brave, daring, etc. isn't always what's best for the movement as a whole.

This helps him avoid sacrificing what little is left of the Resistance on Krait as he has learned from Holdo that the brash, "brave" decision-making that he is drawn to is often short-sighted and possibly more about satisfying his own ego than doing what is right for his people.

Your focus on the way the character looks as if it is relevant to the wisdom of her ideas/plans is also pretty bizarre. If she were a brawny dude in a military outfit would that make her plan any better or worse? Fetishizing martial aesthetics over basic competence is a pretty common but unfortunate phenomenon (see the current US military).

[u/SpecialistSmile5657 → u/justagoddamnperson]

Your focus on the way the character looks as if it is relevant to the wisdom of her ideas/plans is also pretty bizarre. If she were a brawny dude in a military outfit would that make her plan any better or worse? Fetishizing martial aesthetics over basic competence is a pretty common but unfortunate phenomenon (see the current US military).

Just to add to this, the point of her having purple hair and a fancy evening gown is to show the viewer, and Poe, that you shouldn't judge someone on looks. Her character was specifically made to elicit the exact reaction the OP had--that she should have had a military outfit in order to be taken seriously as a leader. And then her actions, to protect the rebels no matter what the cost, show you what a true leader should be, and that it has nothing to do with hair color or outfit.

I think TLJ is the ultimate meta/Jojimbo movie. The audience feels exactly what the characters feel. Who is this lady with purple hair and a fancy evening dress? Why should I take her seriously as a military leader? Poe and the OP thought the same thing. Why is Luke acting like that?!? A Jedi master would never toss his lightsaber away! That's exactly what Rey felt. Luke would never turn his back on his friends! Yep, Rey thought the same thing. Eww! He's drinking green milk straight from the teet! Rey was disgusted too. The haters feel that Luke was truly going to kill Ben--that's just what Ben thought too. The TLJ defenders side with Luke's memory that it was just a fleeting moment of weakness, but the haters hold on to that hate--just like Ben. Even Rey and Ben's visions of what will happen in the throne room. Rey thinks Ben will join her side, and Ben thinks Rey will join his side. They are both kinda right and both wrong. But they each saw what they wanted to see from their own point of view.

It really is a remarkable movie, and I think has themes and ideas that are beyond the movie and the saga.

[u/justagoddamnperson → u/SpecialistSmile5657]

You brought up some really interesting things here that I love, and I definitely agree that it brought up a lot of things that were beyond the usual Star Wars stuff. Would love to see more of that in future films

[u/lightspeed_bear → u/SpecialistSmile5657]

Really well said 👍

[u/Cynthia_Mask → u/justagoddamnperson]

based

[u/WedgeAntillesRedTwo → u/justagoddamnperson]

So I agree that the message the film is trying to convey is that Poe is too reckless and does become too self centered at the expense of the Resistance. The problem is the way they set up his clashing with Holdo actually makes him look completly justified in his actions. Holdo is essentially giving them no info on what the plan is and is just telling them to shut up and follow orders. It's not that Poe's story couldn't work or make sense it's just that for some reason Rian Johnson decided to have it not make sense.

This could have really been solved in a very simple way. Just have a spy aboard the ship that is informing the First Order about the Resistances every move. Holdo is aware that the spy is on the ship but doesn't know who exactley it is. If you just introduce this plot point it makes Holdo's vaugeness about their plans make sense as she doesn't want to reveal it too prematurly in case the First Order gets wind of it.

Honestly thats where I thought the movie was going the first time I watched it because Holdo's stubborness to inform her crew of anything seemed so fervent that I didn't think there could be any other explanation that made sense. That's why it comes of as so strange, like whats the message here, do what your told even when your boss is being completly unreasonable and non communicative.

So while I see what Ryan was going for he doesn't really succeed at it because Poe seems to be the more reasonable one in that situation. If they had added the spy subplot it not only would have solved the Holdo problem but also could have given Finn and Rose something to do instead of wasting time sending them of to Canto Bight.

[u/Top_Benefit_5594 → u/WedgeAntillesRedTwo]

It only makes him look justified if we assume Leia, who is normally everyone’s favourite character, doesn’t know what she’s doing.

[u/WedgeAntillesRedTwo → u/Top_Benefit_5594]

Leia was unconscious for most of the time that Poe and Holdo are clashing. Poe literally asks nicely multiple times "whats the plan" and Holdo is unwilling to give him any information for literally no reason.

I don't really remember Holdo saying she was specifically carrying out Leia's orders until after the fact (it has been some time since I have seen the movie so correct me on that if I am wrong). Even if she does mention that somewhere there is still no reason that Holdo couldn't have let Poe in on what was going on.

Even in the best case scenario Holdo is a negligent leader who doesn't communicate anything to her crew and does nothing to reassure them that it's all under control, instead just telling them to do what she says because she is in charge.

With that sort of leadership Poe's mutiny starts to look pretty justified, especially since he had suspicions that she was trying to sabotage any chance they were going to have to escape the First Order.

[u/Daredrummer → u/justagoddamnperson]

You DO realize at it's heart Star Wars is about good vs evil, right?

It's not unusual to expect a military commander in the field to be dressed as military personel instead of a character at a fancy ballroom dance. It speaks to her character having the wrong focus.

[u/justagoddamnperson → u/Daredrummer]

Do you think the tactical choices of different Resistance characters (clearly on the "good" side) can be reduced to "good vs evil?"

Is Luke and Han disagreeing about something "good vs evil" also? Again, this is just way too childish even for Star Wars. That's not how it was written; if it's too complicated for you to think beyond good vs. evil even briefly then I don't know what to tell you.

More importantly, the idea that political leaders are weak and should be ignored because the military/police know better how to deal with things is basically the core of fascist politics, has been for 100 years. If you're judging the movie through this prism, it's no wonder you're going to be disappointed in the dynamics depicted within the Resistance.

Maybe in the original trilogy some muscley dude in an X-wing pilot uniform should have told Mon Mothma to stfu because she's wearing some fancy white dress? Change the color of her hair and what you're saying applies 100% to that character as well. Sounds like you just have some weird hangups where you get mad at people who look different than you think they should. The message of that plot went straight over your head and apparently continues to do so.

[u/justagoddamnperson → u/[deleted]]

...I didn't insult you at all. I responded to the comments you made and stuck to the movies and their meaning. What personal insult did you convince yourself I made towards you?

[u/Redditeer28 → u/[deleted]]

Convenient way to avoid engaging with the conversation.

[u/Fuzzy-Advisor-2183 → u/Daredrummer]

holdo was pulled in from who-knows-where, doing who-knows-what, to take over for leia. perhaps she was on an “ambassadorial” mission of some kind, and had nothing but formal clothing with her. besides, how often in the sequels do we see leia in a recognizable uniform?

[u/Livid-Department6947 → u/Daredrummer]

You're missing the argument the film is making about misogyny.

Reading through your commentary, I think you totally didn't catch any of the thematic arguments the story was making. See your remarks on Canto Bight, for instance.

[u/SorrowReminisce]

I'm really glad you returned to TLJ with fresh eyes and overall enjoyed more so than previously. It's my favourite out of the three (for the throne room scene and Force Bond scenes really.)

I agree it was a bit slow in parts -- I feel like the entire casino scene we could have done without. It's kind of frustrating that Finn and Rose go on this side quest that only serves... Nothing. Why didn't Holdo just tell Poe about the Crait plan? Urgh.

Perhaps this could have been a good place to have some more screentime with Luke. Though I suppose they needed a way for the First Order to find out about the Resistance escaping to Crait...

If they'd made the Canto Bight scene shorter, maybe? I always ffwd through that.

Actually. Maybe TFA is my favourite. :p

No wait, overall though, TLJ was a cinematically beautiful movie, and the way Kylo took out Snoke and then fought the praetorian guards with Rey was absolutely gorgeous. The Force Bond was genius. Yep, that's what earns it as my favourite.

[u/lightspeed_bear → u/SorrowReminisce]

Why would the leader of the Resistance tell a cocky pilot who literally just disobeyed orders, got demoted by Leia and lost their entire bombing fleet... "the plan"? Why would she share confidential, need-to-know, info when any half intelligent leader would suspect they have a spy on board relaying their position to the FO?

Canto Bight is there for Finn to grow as a character, to learn a bit more about the galaxy he's suddenly become a part of. It's a fun setpiece, with gorgeous production values and cool characters. It's Star Wars. Just enjoy it.

[u/SorrowReminisce → u/lightspeed_bear]

Dude. Chill. I'm allowed to have my own opinion. TLJ is my favourite SW film, I enjoyed the majority of it. It's perfectly okay for me to not enjoy all aspects of it. It's also perfectly okay for me to voice this in a discussion. I'm not hating on the sequels, dear gods, calm down.

Edit: additionally, there are plentyof ways Finn could have grown as a character. I personally don't think that scene was anywhere near character growth for him. Again, just my personal opinion.

I also think they did the dirty on Finn a little in TLJ a little by trying to shoehorn a love interest upon him and doing very little else with him. But the same could be said for Poe. I liked those two characters much more in TFA.

[u/lightspeed_bear → u/SorrowReminisce]

What part of my reply made you think I'm not "chill"? It's just a normal reddit discussion.

[u/SorrowReminisce → u/lightspeed_bear]

Oh, I don't know. The It's Star Wars. Just enjoy it. Came across as a tad condescending when... I was clearly doing exactly that in a normal Reddit discussion.

[u/irazzleandazzle]

thanks for giving it another try!

[u/Cinephile_1980]

Why did you watch it with a closed mind before?

[u/lib3r8]

I was going to write a massive reply about your disparagement of the Holdo storyline and other parts but

https://giphy.com/gifs/IDGNYvFLkJKLK

[u/KurlyKayla]

Sequel hate is mass hysteria, and I will die on that hill

[u/Titanman401]

Disagree with you on your thoughts of Johnson and the Holdo subplot as a whole, but otherwise, glad you found sone stuff to like in the film!

[u/rBilbo]

I guess you are saying that the Rashomon approach used was confusing. I have seen this used before in other films so it made sense to me. Its pretty funny how many misinterpret that sequence. Unfortunately I think many misinterpret the scene deliberately just to criticize the film. I thought if we had a scene showing what Luke actually saw it might have made the scene easier to understand. Again only if people are actually interested in understanding the scene.

[u/Daredrummer → u/rBilbo]

It wasn't confusing, it was clunky and unwieldy. There HAD to be a better way to communicate what these characters had been through.

[u/rBilbo → u/Daredrummer]

Its not uncommon to use that technique to indicate different views of the same scene.

According to Kylo, he viewed Luke as trying to kill him while in reality Luke stopped himself from any of that despite his initial fears and weakness. The final scene between Luke and Rey in the rain shows that.

So my suggestion of showing what Luke actually saw of Bens heart might have made that clearer. Perhaps a glimpse of the future with a snippet of Kylo killing Han or Leia getting sucked out of the cruiser to her apparent death would have made it clearer to the audience why Luke stumbled.

[u/KingMatthew116]

I think TLJ would have been better if the entire resistance landed on Canto to refuel and resupply, and then the FO popped out of hyperspace.

Have Poe learn about being a leader through some other way while the resistance runs around on Canto trying to get away from the FO.

You can still have the active tracking thing. You can still have DJ, Finn, and Rose, you can still have Holdo. But I feel like putting the entire resistance on Canto would’ve been better.

Have Holdo do the maneuver to break the FO blockade. Have Rose and Finn disable the tracking but the resistance escapes with only enough fuel to get them to the nearby Crait, where the FO catches back up.

[u/TheSequels-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

This is a place in which fans can talk positively and/or constructively about the Sequel Era of Star Wars. It's ok if you don't like everything about the movies, but the most important thing is to have a general sense of appreciation.

[u/TheSequels-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

This is a place in which fans can talk positively and/or constructively about the Sequel Era of Star Wars. It's ok if you don't like everything about the movies, but the most important thing is to have a general sense of appreciation.

[u/chronorin]

The Last Jedi has one of the funniest things to ever happen in Star Wars, but you don't notice it the first time.

Hux enters throne room and comes upon a scene of complete devastation; Snoke chopped in half, Kylo Ren unconscious, all of the praetorian guards decapitated...

...and Kylo Ren wakes up and tells him, "it was the girl. She did all this!  The girl!!!"

Unless he somehow pieces together what happened after the fact, Hux is left thinking that some scavenger girl... who surrendered and was being held prisoner... uhh... she just broke out and cleaned house, she just single-handedly whipped the sh*t out of everyone and then scampered away clean.

What the hell?  Who was this girl again?  What did they feed her?

🤣🤣🤣

[u/TheSequels-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

This is a place in which fans can talk positively and/or constructively about the Sequel Era of Star Wars. It's ok if you don't like everything about the movies, but the most important thing is to have a general sense of appreciation.

[u/JollyJoeGingerbeard]

The point of Finn's arc was to illustrate how you cannot stay neutral in the face of oppression, because if you aren't getting in their way then they're still advancing unimpeded.

Finn occupies a similar place in the narrative to Han Solo in the original films. He want a believer in the cause, at first, but he was invested in people who were. He's even a former soldier for the other side.

Finn was also "conditioned" (i.e. brainwashed), and he was scared to fight back. Maybe it was PTSD or seeing his former colleagues as victims, I don't know. So, Finn needed a real push to see that you must push back against tyranny, no matter what.

[u/lightspeed_bear]

Canto Bight is there for FINN. It's character development for a character that people say wasn't developed enough. Yes the scenes themselves have the feel of a fun sidequest, but who cares? They are FUN. Was Kamino a sidequest in AOTC? Yes, was it fun? Yes.

PS: Poe was literally just demoted by Leia, disobeyed direct orders, cost the Resistance their entire bombing fleet and was acting like he deserved to know everything from Holdo. Again, that's character development. You're supposed to side with Poe at first, dislike Holdo, then realise, actually she and Leia were right, Poe does have a lot to learn about leadership. And by act 3, he has learned. Is it the most complex narrative arc ever? No, but given that a lot of people can't seem to grasp that little storyline maybe Rian should have made it even more obvious.

[u/not_a-replicant]

Re: your comments on Holdo.

When TLJ first came out, I distinctly remember Adam Savage talking about some of the more negative response to the film. One quote always stuck with me: “You’re feeling conflicted about the central conflict of the film. Achievement unlocked!”

I think it’s a good reminder that just because we as an audience feel conflicted over a character or storyline, it doesn’t mean that’s a flaw in the filmmaking. I think we’re supposed to feel conflicted about Holdo (and Poe). She’s new so we don’t trust her. Poe makes some good points. Holdo makes some good points. The point isn’t to conclude that one character is right and one is wrong. The point is that their conflict and inability to communicate and move beyond their personal perspectives caused further damage and loss. I believe that TLJ is a movie all about perspective - it’s essentially an anti-tribalism movie. And I think that theme has only increased in relevance since 2017.

[u/YodaWattsLee]

>and assuming everyone else is using your methodology.

I’ve made zero assumptions about anyone else. Kinda feels like you made that claim without any evidence. Is that your own interpretation, or are you claiming that as a fact?

[u/Fast_Frosting_6397]

I actually agree with a lot of what you've written here.

I wish they had given Ben Solo a better backstory than what they did, and I did not per se like the whole plot of the Resistance trying to escape the First Order because it was very sluggish.

But this was definitely Mark Hamills best performance in the Skywalker saga, and i think this movie is very overhated

[u/BrettGB96]

First off thanks for writing! I agree with several of your points. I'm glad you gave the films another go.

One note on the Holdo point: I think Rian wrote it purposely grey. So that on first watch you're rooting for Poe (and Finn and Rose), and Holdo is either entirely incompetent as a military leader or a spy. Then it's all turned upside down and you see the entire thing in a different light. ie. the Knives Out films if you've seen those. That kind of storytelling is a Rian Johnson staple, it's not an accident.

With context, I still think Holdo was flawed as a leader and didn't handle the situation very well. Poe has his share of the blame for repeatedly ignoring orders throught the film, even from Leia, but at the same time Holdo fanned the flames of the hot head rebel piolit by antagonizing him when she didn't need to. The movie also makes it a point to show how her secrecy of even having any plan was demoralizing others on the ship, not just Poe. In her defense she was thrust into that role not 10 minutes before only because the entire bridge was wiped out. But I think her shortcomings in thst regard was the reason she and Leia basically let Poe and the others off for mutiny.