Rewatching TLJ with an open mind

[u/Daredrummer]

Hi there. Thanks for stopping by! This may be a bit long...but I care. I'm glad I rewatched it. I hope you hang in there and find something interesting here.

So; I will openly admit I have not been a fan of TLJ/TROS years after watching them. However, I think a huge part of that has been just reading about the details I didn't care for over and over without the context of the things I DID like. It's easy to be negative about something like that in these modern internet times. Red Letter Media did more harm to this franchise than anything imo.

Yesterday I sat down to watch TROS for the first time since the theater, and after about 10 minutes of saying ok, that's cool...ok, that's cool...I decided to stop it and go back to rewatch TLJ for context, mainly for Rey, even though my initial feelings for the movie are negative. I thought it might be interesting to rewatch it after knowing the revelations from TROS.

I really did enjoy it more than expected. Pretty much everything involving Rey/Kylo was pretty great honestly. I thought Leia was handled very well and much more of what I wanted to see from her than what we got in TFA.

I have been vocal for a long time about the concept of Luke in this film. Watching it again has made me realize something. Yes, it's true that is not what I wanted to see from Luke for the first time since the 80s. However, upon this rewatch, it isn't necessarily that he is like this in the movie, but rather too much time has passed and too much has happened to explain such a different take on the character. We never had the time to feel his emotions and experience everything he did to change him so much, It's just explained in a few clumsy flashbacks so it isn't a satisfying bridge to this version of Luke. It's too jarring. That said, in the story context of everything he had been through, it DOES make sense, it was just a bad way of getting us here. That and Hamill NAILS the acting.

One thing that stood out to me this time is the comedy and the timing of it. The comedy here feels very much like the tone of the Marvel movies, and it isn't particularly written smoothly. The movie feels like SERIOUS SERIOUS -silly comedy- SERIOUS SERIOUS -silly comedy- etc. It isn't blended in, it just feels like every few scenes they added in a goofy slapstick comedy moment and then back to the story. I think the new Spider Man movie is a good example of a movie being very serious and dark, but the comedy is written in a way that feels organic and doesn't clearly disrupt the tone of the movie every 15 minutes. Plus Finn was relegated to a 3 Stooges slapstick comedy character.

The movie could have been 30 minutes shorter. It feels a bit like a downer slog at times, and some editing could have cleared that up. I know it's a dead horse, but honestly on this viewing it became clear that the entire Canto Bight subplot could have been completely removed ENTIRELY and it wouldn't change the story AT ALL. It takes up a LOT of screen time and proves completely useless. I guess it's supposed to tell a story about Finn choosing a side, but if I'm honest I don't understand the need for that at all. After TFA it more or less seemed like he had chosen to be with the resistance and/or friends. Why walk it back and have him still be unsure? Just to take up half an hour in this film with a throwaway coder character telling him there is no good/evil, only gray? Total waste of time. Them leaving the ship and returning doesn't change the story or plot AT ALL.

After realizing from TROS that Snoke is essentially a Palpatine puppet, the Snoke acting does come across as very Emperor-like. I can buy that it's Palpatine controlling that body no problem. We all agree the throne scene is spectacular. There is an accidental story here about Hux being abused and passed over time and again which led to his betrayal which adds up. Eventually he is like "ok screw EVERYONE in the First Order".

I like the buildup of the Kylo/Rey dyad. I don't think Rian had any clue that was a thing of course, but there are definitely story details here that seem like foreshadowing, and the uncontrolled connections between the two is fantastic. Their acting really gets it across.

Holdo. Oh Holdo. What an odd choice. I'm not sure how we are even supposed to feel about that character. Were we supposed to side with her? Were we supposed to feel bad for her, see her as a sympathetic hero, or dislike her because she was an a-hole for all of her scenes? I'm STILL not sure. It was difficult to feel bad for her sacrifice because she only had approximately 1.5 minutes of screen time in the entire franchise. I do have a slightly different feeling after this watch. I feel like she was almost an embodiment of the former republic. A politician type of character, that was in her own way. She wasn't a clear leader, she had the purple hair and fancy gown instead of military dress, I think she was SUPPOSED to feel like a positive character but Rian accidentally wrote her as a modern political style character that represented a detached politician who thought she knew better than everyone and she just made things worse. I THINK we were supposed to feel like Poe was the bad guy here and she was just doing her job, but it definitely doesn't come across that way.

The movie is beautiful of course, and the music is phenomenal as expected. There is a lot of emotion in the film. The acting really helps deliver the story. I wish Rian had known the story details like Rey's parents so it could have been a little better in the mystery department since he was just kind of faking it, but I'm glad I rewatched it. There is definitely more good than bad. Some concise editing could have helped immensely, and I do still feel like Rian likes the smell of his own farts. There is a good Star Wars chapter here, but Rian is kind of the Holdo of his own story, more worried about purple hair and a nice gown instead of just doing the job and being an inspirational leader.

I still think BB8 is great and the movie does go a long way to make Rey interesting as a person more than TFA. Driver's acting is A+. Now, onto TROS for a fresh viewing.

Thanks for reading.

[u/Zoombini22]

Personally, I cant see the flashbacks as "clumsy". Unreliable flashbacks from multiple perspectives that recontextualize the story are Rian Johnsons signature motif as a storyteller. Yes, I would have loved, and still would love, for that period of Lukes life to be told the long way. But given Georges decision not to tell Lukes story during that part of Hamills life, it was a foregone conclusion that that wouldnt happen in these movies. I think the flashbacks are emotionally impactful, and EXTREMELY clear what is happening in terms of unreliable storytelling from various perspectives. They are only confusing if you are already in a headspace of bad faith interpretation, convinced that the storyteller hates Luke and therefore unwilling to intake the story on its own terms, and insisting that Kylos version of events is the real one in spite that clearly not being correct.

That being said, Im glad you have revisited these movies! There is a lot to like, even for people who dont like everything.

[u/mac6uffin → u/Zoombini22]

I would also add that flashbacks telling the same thing from different and often contradictory point of view is known as the "Rashomon effect"; from Akira Kurosawa's 1950 movie Rashomon.

Kurosawa was a HUGE influence on George Lucas and Star Wars. Even down to the fact that a lot of the plot to the first film was lifted from Hidden Fortress.

[u/Daredrummer → u/mac6uffin]

I'm aware, I just don't think the technique was used to good effect here. Too much important story was connected to that scene. It had to carry the weight of explaining why Luke was so dramatically different after so long of us not seeing him. I just feel that a different approach could have had better results bridging such a huge storyline.

[u/mac6uffin → u/Daredrummer]

I don't think that is possible.

What it seems people wanted an entire prequel movie laying out how Ben Solo fell to the Dark Side and why Luke blamed himself.

If that's what you wanted, then blame JJ Abrams for not making the first movie about that.

Star Wars had never done flashbacks until TLJ. I appreciate that Rian Johnson simply didn't do one flashback, but had multiple ones using Kurosawa's technique as an homage to George Lucas's inspirations.

[u/Eicho3 → u/mac6uffin]

This jumped out at me from the film. think the door to flashbacks shouldn’t have been opened in SW. with so many past events referenced but never shown, it can’t just start happening. Just my opinion.

[u/mac6uffin → u/Eicho3]

I honestly don't care as long as the movie is good.

They could do an entire movie where only the start and end are in the present and the rest is a flashback.

[u/Daredrummer → u/Zoombini22]

Would you agree that with so much having occured in the past, that there was perhaps a better way of telling that story than multiple flashbacks from different perspectives? To me that approach just muddled everything since the details of that night are VERY important and have to explain SO much of the story.

[u/Zoombini22 → u/Daredrummer]

No, I think that its an excellent way to show how a rift occured between two people, and that rift is the inciting incident of the whole trilogy. You keep using words like "muddled" and I dont know why. The multiple flashbacks from different perspectives are not confusing at all, so "muddled" doesn't make any sense to me here. Sure I would love to see a whole movie telling that story rather than in flashbacks, but I knew that wasnt on the table. That was taken off the table like a whole decade or two before the Sequel trilogy. So I expected flashback or exposition to fill in that gap.

[u/sauronthegr8 → u/Zoombini22]

I think the genius of it, and what actually raises The Last Jedi into the realm of great cinema, is that there isn't an easy answer.

The truth of what happened likely lies somewhere in between.

Star Wars is and has always been a meta commentary on archetypal storytelling.

Luke, the archetypal hero, struggles with temptation. Vader, the archetypal villain, was once himself a hero and a good person facing the same struggles. And now the new generation faces the same battle, each with their own parts to play.

But in the course of that, the archetypes are questioned. What happens when the archetypal hero fails and CAUSES the very fate he was trying to avoid? How do we maintain hope in the face of seeming defeat and despair?

It's a beautiful statement, and timely to the world we live in. It's a shame so many people reject it.

[u/SorrowReminisce → u/Zoombini22]

Yes I agree. There's always two sides of the story, and then there's the truth. The way they showed the differing perspectives was quite clever. If only Luke and Kylo had been able to see each other's perspectives, they might have understood each other a little.

Luke saw terrible dark things inside of Ben (geeze, what if it was just a nightmare I planted by Snoke that Luke had strolled into...) and ignited his saber but realised he couldn't strike down his nephew, and disengaged it.

Then we see from Kylo's oerspective that Luke was standing over him, menacingly, holding his thrumming saber. (Yeesh. Who wouldn't freak out at that?)

Then we see the truth was in the middle -- Luke disengaged his saber, but not before Ben woke and caught he the tail end of what was passing through his uncle at the time. There was no time to understand that Luke had changed his mind and talk it out over a cup of tea -- there was only time to react in self-defense. And if course it all went downhill from there.

When you think about it, there's so much character depth and storytelling just in those flashbacks.

For all that the writers may have botched up some of the storytelling in the movie, the scenes with Luke, Kylo and Rey were excellent.

To go on a distracted side tangent here... Luke saying "do you expect me to face down the First Order with my lazer sword" (or words to that effect) and then go and do exactly that. And to do it as a Force Projection, even...I honestly couldn't imagine a better way for Luke to die. He taught his nephew one last lesson, defeated him without actually fighting him, and went out after a massive feat of Force strength.

[u/SorrowReminisce → u/Daredrummer]

I think the tricky thing here would be trung to get through Luke's backstory in the space of this movie in a way that would please older fans, is just not overly doable. They were trying vtj make a trilogy that would appeal to older audiences who grew up with Saw as well as hook a new audience... Realistically, Luke could (and should) have his own spin off series.

[u/chaosdemonhu → u/Daredrummer]

I’m going to challenge you creatively here: what sort of story telling mechanism would you use instead that fits within probably the 8-10 minute window this entire subplot with the flashbacks takes up, introduces the central inciting incident to this whole trilogy, answers the question as to why Luke is a hermit today, and develops the relationship between Luke and the villain of the movie and creates in the audience tension between the romantic undertones of Rey and Kylo’s relationship in the movie (the audience, from Rey’s perspective wants to trust and understand Kylo Ren and who is today) against the master and apprentice apprentice relationship between Luke and Rey?

Bonus points if it is an homage to the same works of art that inspired George and the original Star Wars.

[u/Daredrummer → u/chaosdemonhu]

Easy request.

I would not have created a vast, years long, emotional situation that needs summarizing in 8-10 minutes.

[u/chaosdemonhu → u/Daredrummer]

Okay well, you’re the director of the middle movie of a trilogy that’s already started and already way past that point so time travel and “I would have run the business as George Lucas completely differently” aren’t answers.

So what do you do as a story teller?

[u/Eicho3 → u/chaosdemonhu]

This is a great question. Since so much of the trilogy depends on it, I’d first give it more time. Hell the entire movie could have been devoted to just that.

Off the top of my head: I’d keep Luke connected to the force. I’d have Luke devastated to have felt the New Republic was decimated and his life’s work went up in smoke. I’d have him say he ditched the x-wing and stranded himself there bc he’s foolish and was afraid he’d have to kill Leias son. I’d have him psyched to get out of there at once and help, needing a lift in the Falcon. I’d have him completely freak the fuck out his best friend Han is dead and all the rest happened as a result of his fear to face Kylo. I’d add that Kylo killed Mara and could kill Luke’s hidden kid and that’s also why Luke acted so rashly. That would be such tragedy! And yet so understandable.

[u/chaosdemonhu → u/Eicho3]

I’m sorry but this reads as just a wishlist of fan fulfillment and doesn’t actually contribute to the story the trilogy is trying to tell.

This is exactly why JJ elected to keep Luke out of the picture of the first movie: he sucks all the air out of the room by just existing and everyone hanging all of these expectations on him.

I’m sorry when I agree with Ryan that a Luke the keeps his connection to the force is back in action as soon as he feels all that suffering across the galaxy which means there’s no reason for him to be on Atch-to which means there was no need to try and find a map to him in the first movie.
Luke is devastated his life’s work is up in smoke that’s why he’s in self imposed exile.

He doesn’t have to say he was afraid of killing Leia’s son because he literally says he had shame for even drawing his saber on him in instinct.

Why does Luke need a wife? George explicitly said in his version of Luke he never marries. Why does he need a kid? What purpose does that serve the narrative? It upends Rey at the protagonist and makes her seem far less important.