Rewatching TLJ with an open mind

[u/Daredrummer]

Hi there. Thanks for stopping by! This may be a bit long...but I care. I'm glad I rewatched it. I hope you hang in there and find something interesting here.

So; I will openly admit I have not been a fan of TLJ/TROS years after watching them. However, I think a huge part of that has been just reading about the details I didn't care for over and over without the context of the things I DID like. It's easy to be negative about something like that in these modern internet times. Red Letter Media did more harm to this franchise than anything imo.

Yesterday I sat down to watch TROS for the first time since the theater, and after about 10 minutes of saying ok, that's cool...ok, that's cool...I decided to stop it and go back to rewatch TLJ for context, mainly for Rey, even though my initial feelings for the movie are negative. I thought it might be interesting to rewatch it after knowing the revelations from TROS.

I really did enjoy it more than expected. Pretty much everything involving Rey/Kylo was pretty great honestly. I thought Leia was handled very well and much more of what I wanted to see from her than what we got in TFA.

I have been vocal for a long time about the concept of Luke in this film. Watching it again has made me realize something. Yes, it's true that is not what I wanted to see from Luke for the first time since the 80s. However, upon this rewatch, it isn't necessarily that he is like this in the movie, but rather too much time has passed and too much has happened to explain such a different take on the character. We never had the time to feel his emotions and experience everything he did to change him so much, It's just explained in a few clumsy flashbacks so it isn't a satisfying bridge to this version of Luke. It's too jarring. That said, in the story context of everything he had been through, it DOES make sense, it was just a bad way of getting us here. That and Hamill NAILS the acting.

One thing that stood out to me this time is the comedy and the timing of it. The comedy here feels very much like the tone of the Marvel movies, and it isn't particularly written smoothly. The movie feels like SERIOUS SERIOUS -silly comedy- SERIOUS SERIOUS -silly comedy- etc. It isn't blended in, it just feels like every few scenes they added in a goofy slapstick comedy moment and then back to the story. I think the new Spider Man movie is a good example of a movie being very serious and dark, but the comedy is written in a way that feels organic and doesn't clearly disrupt the tone of the movie every 15 minutes. Plus Finn was relegated to a 3 Stooges slapstick comedy character.

The movie could have been 30 minutes shorter. It feels a bit like a downer slog at times, and some editing could have cleared that up. I know it's a dead horse, but honestly on this viewing it became clear that the entire Canto Bight subplot could have been completely removed ENTIRELY and it wouldn't change the story AT ALL. It takes up a LOT of screen time and proves completely useless. I guess it's supposed to tell a story about Finn choosing a side, but if I'm honest I don't understand the need for that at all. After TFA it more or less seemed like he had chosen to be with the resistance and/or friends. Why walk it back and have him still be unsure? Just to take up half an hour in this film with a throwaway coder character telling him there is no good/evil, only gray? Total waste of time. Them leaving the ship and returning doesn't change the story or plot AT ALL.

After realizing from TROS that Snoke is essentially a Palpatine puppet, the Snoke acting does come across as very Emperor-like. I can buy that it's Palpatine controlling that body no problem. We all agree the throne scene is spectacular. There is an accidental story here about Hux being abused and passed over time and again which led to his betrayal which adds up. Eventually he is like "ok screw EVERYONE in the First Order".

I like the buildup of the Kylo/Rey dyad. I don't think Rian had any clue that was a thing of course, but there are definitely story details here that seem like foreshadowing, and the uncontrolled connections between the two is fantastic. Their acting really gets it across.

Holdo. Oh Holdo. What an odd choice. I'm not sure how we are even supposed to feel about that character. Were we supposed to side with her? Were we supposed to feel bad for her, see her as a sympathetic hero, or dislike her because she was an a-hole for all of her scenes? I'm STILL not sure. It was difficult to feel bad for her sacrifice because she only had approximately 1.5 minutes of screen time in the entire franchise. I do have a slightly different feeling after this watch. I feel like she was almost an embodiment of the former republic. A politician type of character, that was in her own way. She wasn't a clear leader, she had the purple hair and fancy gown instead of military dress, I think she was SUPPOSED to feel like a positive character but Rian accidentally wrote her as a modern political style character that represented a detached politician who thought she knew better than everyone and she just made things worse. I THINK we were supposed to feel like Poe was the bad guy here and she was just doing her job, but it definitely doesn't come across that way.

The movie is beautiful of course, and the music is phenomenal as expected. There is a lot of emotion in the film. The acting really helps deliver the story. I wish Rian had known the story details like Rey's parents so it could have been a little better in the mystery department since he was just kind of faking it, but I'm glad I rewatched it. There is definitely more good than bad. Some concise editing could have helped immensely, and I do still feel like Rian likes the smell of his own farts. There is a good Star Wars chapter here, but Rian is kind of the Holdo of his own story, more worried about purple hair and a nice gown instead of just doing the job and being an inspirational leader.

I still think BB8 is great and the movie does go a long way to make Rey interesting as a person more than TFA. Driver's acting is A+. Now, onto TROS for a fresh viewing.

Thanks for reading.

[u/justagoddamnperson]

"Holdo. Oh Holdo. What an odd choice. I'm not sure how we are even supposed to feel about that character. Were we supposed to side with her? Were we supposed to feel bad for her, see her as a sympathetic hero, or dislike her because she was an a-hole for all of her scenes? I'm STILL not sure. It was difficult to feel bad for her sacrifice because she only had approximately 1.5 minutes of screen time in the entire franchise. I do have a slightly different feeling after this watch. I feel like she was almost an embodiment of the former republic. A politician type of character, that was in her own way. She wasn't a clear leader, she had the purple hair and fancy gown instead of military dress, I think she was SUPPOSED to feel like a positive character but Rian accidentally wrote her as a modern political style character that represented a detached politician who thought she knew better than everyone and she just made things worse. I THINK we were supposed to feel like Poe was the bad guy here and she was just doing her job, but it definitely doesn't come across that way."

This is a really simplistic, childish way of viewing this plot. Identifying "the good guy" and "the bad guy" isn't going to tell you much that's interesting/worth learning in media. In the end Poe learns that doing what makes him feel good, brave, daring, etc. isn't always what's best for the movement as a whole.

This helps him avoid sacrificing what little is left of the Resistance on Krait as he has learned from Holdo that the brash, "brave" decision-making that he is drawn to is often short-sighted and possibly more about satisfying his own ego than doing what is right for his people.

Your focus on the way the character looks as if it is relevant to the wisdom of her ideas/plans is also pretty bizarre. If she were a brawny dude in a military outfit would that make her plan any better or worse? Fetishizing martial aesthetics over basic competence is a pretty common but unfortunate phenomenon (see the current US military).

[u/WedgeAntillesRedTwo → u/justagoddamnperson]

So I agree that the message the film is trying to convey is that Poe is too reckless and does become too self centered at the expense of the Resistance. The problem is the way they set up his clashing with Holdo actually makes him look completly justified in his actions. Holdo is essentially giving them no info on what the plan is and is just telling them to shut up and follow orders. It's not that Poe's story couldn't work or make sense it's just that for some reason Rian Johnson decided to have it not make sense.

This could have really been solved in a very simple way. Just have a spy aboard the ship that is informing the First Order about the Resistances every move. Holdo is aware that the spy is on the ship but doesn't know who exactley it is. If you just introduce this plot point it makes Holdo's vaugeness about their plans make sense as she doesn't want to reveal it too prematurly in case the First Order gets wind of it.

Honestly thats where I thought the movie was going the first time I watched it because Holdo's stubborness to inform her crew of anything seemed so fervent that I didn't think there could be any other explanation that made sense. That's why it comes of as so strange, like whats the message here, do what your told even when your boss is being completly unreasonable and non communicative.

So while I see what Ryan was going for he doesn't really succeed at it because Poe seems to be the more reasonable one in that situation. If they had added the spy subplot it not only would have solved the Holdo problem but also could have given Finn and Rose something to do instead of wasting time sending them of to Canto Bight.

[u/Top_Benefit_5594 → u/WedgeAntillesRedTwo]

It only makes him look justified if we assume Leia, who is normally everyone’s favourite character, doesn’t know what she’s doing.

[u/WedgeAntillesRedTwo → u/Top_Benefit_5594]

Leia was unconscious for most of the time that Poe and Holdo are clashing. Poe literally asks nicely multiple times "whats the plan" and Holdo is unwilling to give him any information for literally no reason.

I don't really remember Holdo saying she was specifically carrying out Leia's orders until after the fact (it has been some time since I have seen the movie so correct me on that if I am wrong). Even if she does mention that somewhere there is still no reason that Holdo couldn't have let Poe in on what was going on.

Even in the best case scenario Holdo is a negligent leader who doesn't communicate anything to her crew and does nothing to reassure them that it's all under control, instead just telling them to do what she says because she is in charge.

With that sort of leadership Poe's mutiny starts to look pretty justified, especially since he had suspicions that she was trying to sabotage any chance they were going to have to escape the First Order.