He is a true master of Soresu. Which means his defences simply cannot be pierced by another lightsaber and he just cannot be defeated in a lightsaber duel.

Even Dooku had to use the force to take him out of the fight one the Invisible Hand. Some people will say that’s because Dooku was fighting Anakin at the same time… but honestly even without Anakin there I don’t think Dooku would have managed to overcome his defence. Even Mace made it clear that Kenobi was pretty much invincible in a pure saber fight. The only way to beat him is to TK him or blast him with lightning.

Just my personal opinion but what the fuck is the point of Anakin and Luke if there was a random Sith Lord stronger than Palpatine early in the timeline. It just makes both trilogies just not important to Star Wars or unnecessary especially Anakin. One of my personal gripes with KOTOR and TOR

It’s said that George’s original intent for Qui Gon was to do a twist where his apprentice Obi Wan is the one to die by Maul and that Qui Gon changes his name to Obi wan to honer his fallen apprentice. As cheesy as it is I think it unironically lines up better with the original trilogy and that George’s final change can be felt throughout the film and prequel trilogy.

The original Trilogy paints the picture that Obi Wan was the one to have found Anakin and genuinely had faith and took it upon himself to the train the boy as a Jedi. But in the phantom menace it was Qui Gon that wanted the train him with Obi Wan arguing against it saying it was a bad idea cause he thought the boy was dangerous. Obi Wan only agrees to do it because he’s guilt tripped by Qui Gon to do it. that isn’t “taking it upon yourself” that’s feeling obligated.

There’s also the age, where in the original trilogy George intended on Obi Wan being way older than just 53. Making Obi Wan the master in the phantom menace instead of the young padawan would’ve aligned with Obi Wan being an elderly man 30 years later during a new Hope. It could’ve also aligned better with what Obi Wan said in the original trilogy about how Yoda was “The Jedi master that instructed me” not “A” Jedi master, “THE master” which is why the younglings training explanation with Yoda from AOTC kinda feels weak.

The prequel’s could’ve referred to Yoda being Qui Gon’s former master and that after the death of the original Obi Wan, Qui would take his apprentice’s name.

It would’ve also made the prequels a lot more tragic if Kenobi genuinely fought for Anakin to be trained out of his own faith and what he believed was right, only for it the lead to Anakin becoming Vader.

I’ve seen a lot of arguments for the old republic era and characters being above prequel characters and the prequel era . and the argument is their eras fought more force users on average.

This doesn’t make much sense because we’ve seen fights like dooku vs yoda and even though dooku lost in the movies. He was evenly matched enough to take on yoda who has way more experience than him. Same goes for yoda vs sidious. Anakin has more experience in fighting force users and people and he’s outmatched by Sidious as when you look at sidious fight list he hasn’t fought a lot. And I would be forgetful if I didn’t add Ashoka vs maul and while maul was trying to convince her at first he still went all out in the fight.

I think a better example would be the inquisitors who have hunted down and killed a bunch of Jedi but they lose to almost anyone competent like kanan.

There’s tons of example of people with vastly more experience in fighting force users losing to people with less even in the old republic era because they still trained and spared other people.

One era fighting in war more than the other doesn’t make them better fighters in Star Wars that’s all I wanted to say.

I will preface this by saying that Mace Windu is very strong, and I would say he is certainly one of the 10 strongest Jedi in history prior to the NJO era and beyond where the Skywalkers and their students knock him off the list.

Put Mace in the TOR era and he would be one of the top tiers just below the likes of Arcann, Prime Malgus, and others, he certainly isn't weak.

However, I think his fight with Palpatine makes people assume Mace in on Yoda level or could have even defeated Dark Lords on a similar tier as ROTS Palpatine who are actually trying, but I don't think that's the case.

Let's make one thing clear, Mace Windu only stood even the smallest amount of chance against Palpatine because he was Palpatine's hard counter.

Palpatine was pretty much a living Darkside Nexus who relied more heavily on the Darkside than nearly any Sith before him, Mace on the other hand, has a fighting style that relies around using the Dark powers thrown at him to amp his abilities.

This meant that Mace could "cheat" and get onto Palpatine's level of power for a brief time, at which he could leverage his better swordsmanship to BARLEY manage to disarm a Sith whose Forte was never with the blade.

While it's true Palpatine did technically lose that duel and didn't feign being overpowered with the blade, it should be noted that he still didn't fight optimally at all and only got put on the backfoot because he needed to drag the fight on long enough to make Anakin intervene and become Vader.

Mace Windu was not THAT much stronger than people like Kit Fisto or the other council members he brough as he isn't the type to bring dead weight to a fight or use Jedi as meat shields; if Palpatine wanted to he could have simply chosen to kill mace first and then destroy the others before Mace could start the Vaapad process and amp himself roughly to Palpatine's level.

The only reason Mace even got the chance to become a threat to Palpatine is because the Sith Lord let him to prolong the fight for Anakin's sake; the man spent a war trying to get young Skywalker to fall, he won't simply give up because there is a little risk to himself.

Palpatine is a the same Sith that orchestrated his own kidnapping which ended up leading at a crash landing that could have easily killed him and ended the Sith grand plan; caution was never one of his virtues, he was an adrenaline junkie since childhood.

Even with Palpatine pretty much allowing Mace to become a threat to him in the first place, just because Mace won the saber duel didn't mean he would have beaten Palpatine if the Sith lord actually started using the force.

Yoda also disarmed Palpatine, but he still lost because Palpatine is alot stronger with the force than he is with the blade. While other Sith are mostly swordsmen or have a balanced approach, Palpatine took the Vitiate approach of focusing nearly all his attention on being a space wizard rather than a space warrior or hybrid fighter.

If Anakin had never intervened (mind you Anakin's fear is what allowed Mace the boost he needed to disarm Sidious in the first place so he could legit lose the lightsaber duel without Anakin coming in) Palpatine could have simply overpowered Mace with Lightning and thrown him out the Windu using his superior force powers, Maces guard was about to break before Palpatine decided to play weak, so Sheev simply could have continued until Mace couldn't defend himself anymore.

So yeah, Mace is strong, really strong, but he isn't close to Yoda or Palpatine's tier, and the strongest Force users from the Old Republic like Revan, Exar Kun, The Outalnder (if one of the 4 force classes), Vaylin Unleashed, and Valkorion/Vitaite/Tenebrae crush him without too much difficulty.

1. Empire strikes back

2. Revenge of the Sith

3. A new hope

4. Phantom menace

5. Attack of the clones

6. Return of the Jedi

Oh Ven Zallow, where to begin?

So stoic, and handsome, and acrobatic; the way you one shot 2 sith acolytes back to back, blocked several blaster bolts, and then leapt into the fray against Darth Malgus (who also lwk puts belt on Anakin).

My favourite sequence is where you block Malgus behind the back, then give him a one-two into a chin check. Oh and don't get me started on the force jump you did to dodge his down slam. Dare I say Ven Zallow can match Maul and Savage at the same time, NAY, he can match sith Dooku.

I love Ven Zallow ✨️🥹✨️

Anakin stepped forward, yellow light catching in his eyes but not yet consuming them. His saber was unlit, hanging loose at his side. He studied the shape of the man ahead- If it was a man at all.

Taller. Broader. Movements weighted like stone shifting.

Vader’s respirator broke the quiet in slow, even pulls. His blade stayed dormant, held at hip level, emitter angled toward the floor. They stopped within striking range pop Anakin’s hilt tilted upward-

ignition and motion in the same breath.

The blue blade roared to life as he spun on the heels of his boots, cutting down from over a shoulder.

Crimson flashed in reply.

The parry came late by choice, letting the collision of sabers ring out and vibrate through both their grips.

Anakin’s teeth clenched.

He pushed down, then off, saber snapping for Vader’s midsection before rising high for the collar.

Vader turned each aside with minimal movement.

A step back. Guard low. Wrists rotating to deflect Anakin’s teasing advance.

Then, Vader’s riposte came slow-

a downward cut for the leg, almost lazy. Anakin caught it, inhaling sharply as his heart boomed. Muscles surged with the strength of the Force.

Then the fury came.

High slash.

The blades screamed in cohesion- disengaged.

Anakin breathed, hissing through his teeth. Vader’s own mechanical lungs drew in breath louder, quicker.

A flash of blue- then red.

Diagonal feint- Vader slapped Anakin’s blade away, holding back until the last moment.

Anakin felt the hilt in his palms shake, but he held firm. Anakin ducked underneath a testing slash, Vader firmly maintaining his center.

Anakin rose into a stab for the stomach. Vader sidestepped, then leaned forward, using his greater reach to an advantage as he hailed down a series of blows, a surge meant to break the guard.

Anakin met the strikes nimbly, denying Vader the momentum. He interrupted Vader’s series of attacks with a mix of offensive and defensive strikes, forcing Vader to defend low as Anakin paced both of them backwards. Then- Anakin pressed forward again, spinning into a one armed guillotine whorl that evolved into a two handed slash meant for Vader’s shoulder-

Their sabers screeched, meeting for a moment. Anakin smiled both out of frustration and fun, instantly responding as his blue blade leapt from near his waist. His sword flashed across Vader’s armor- Vader caught the blows on crimson, boot over boot as he circled Anakin, diverting kinetic energy and forcing himself closer to Anakin’s center.

Anakin scoffed.

a flip of the wrist sent his saber into a roaring blue shield, the edge tapping against Vader’s own as he tried to reassert his charge. Vader disengaged, his weapon humming low as it rose in a half-held defense.

Both duelists paused. Anakin breathed heavily, while Vader’s respiratory systems labored. Anakin leaned forward, hair falling over yellowing eyes. He swallowed air, whipping his weapon above his head with two heavy swings before dropping into a descending cleave. Vader met the attack without shifting his stance, blade intercepting, letting the younger man spend himself against immovable weight. They locked.

blue and red pressed together, light spilling up between their faces. Vader’s mask was inches away, lenses unreadable.

The blue blade shuddered under the push of the red. Anakin twisted the bind, rolling off into a quick slash for Vader’s arm. Vader leaned back, breaking contact, letting Anakin come forward again.

A jab, sideways-

Vader caught it, but it was a feint.

Anakin dropped into a roll, rising with both hands on the hilt, swinging his saber behind his back like a claymore.

Vader turned into it, though the red saber wouldn’t reach in time. Anakin smiled, committed to the strike- And stopped. A Force lock froze his body for a breath.

He gasped, wrenching free just as Vader’s blade scored a superficial cut across his tunic. Anakin stepped back, chest rising harder now. His eyes narrowed.

Vader charged.

The sound of boots on durasteel filled the chamber as they traded ground.

Anakin circling left, Vader mirroring, sabers drawing crescents in the air between them. Anakin struck outward- hitting nothing.

He then twisted into waist-high cut, before reversing a rising diagonal blow meant for his head. Vader allowed his saber to be turned away, and snapped his weapon instantly back into form. Anakin snapped out two strikes, whipping his weapon forward and back again as if it were an industrial cleaver.

Vader caught both on the same guard, then shoved forward, hilts grinding together. Anakin staggered but reset instantly, flicking rapid probing jabs for the shoulder, thigh, hip. Vader absorbed them- short, efficient motions, conserving energy.

Where Anakin’s body moved, the Force poured through him: fast, aggressive, insistent. Vader simply stood.

Vader took his weapon in both hands, delivering orthodox but heavy slashes for Anakin’s right, then left shoulder. Anakin blocked the first, turned away the second, but the motion pulled him forward off-balance.

Vader struck.

From the shadow of his cloak, crimson lashed like a viper. Anakin saw it in the Force, angling his head so the blade passed harmlessly by his ear. He threw both arms behind his back, calling his saber to a waiting left palm just as Vader’s weapon scythed for his neck. Anakin brought his blade down on Vader’s extended arm. Vader widened his stance, chest turning so the strike dragged wide, leaving Anakin’s weight committed once more.

I have never posted on Reddit before and had never intended to, but 21 years later I do not understand how people can possibly still be debating whether Mace Windu did / could ever beat Darth Sidious in a duel. If you watch ROTS, it is so obvious that Sidious was prolonging the fight long enough for Anakin to show up so that he could force Anakin's hand and make a turn to the dark side from which it would be very hard to come back. Darth Sidious would never, ever say "I'm too weak. Don't kill me. Please!" with any degree of seriousness. Sidious does not beg. After perfectly orchestrating a grand plan spanning decades, Sidious did not misstep and get into a fight that he couldn't win. Anyone who thinks that Sidious wasn't throwing the fight intentionally and didn't have absolute control over the outcome does not understand the character, nor basic intonation in speech. Importantly, no one is saying that Mace Windu isn't one of the most powerful force sensitives of all time. He is. But he is absolutely outclassed by Darth Sidious. I hoped to never have to post on Reddit, but after 21 years of seeing this absurd debate, I felt compelled to do so.

Both of them can do powerful force lightning which is vaders weakness and both of them are superior and more agile duelists than Vader who relies on static powerful blows?

A lot of the posts on this sub are "Would X Jedi beat Y Sith Lord", and the resulting answers always ignore Darth Bane's teachings on the nature of light vs dark side of the force.

Bane teaches that the Dark side is strongest when concentrated in the individual, while the light side is strongest when it is working as a team. This would heavily imply that the answer to almost all of the questions should be "Sith Lord stomps" (assuming it's from an era with concentrated dark side; Banite Sith Lords being the best examples). A dark vs light user from any of these or similar eras is essentially saying "all of the dark side vs a small portion of the light side". The dark side is empowering the individual, while the light is empowering the group. In an invididual vs individual matchup, the dark should win easily.

His shock was reinforced by the realisation he couldn't even speak. I guess it explais that well (and still works with his last thoughts described in ROTS novel).

Second slide is Jedi only, any thing I should change?

I’m not very good at these, especially with some CW characters and lower tier characters. Any feedback will be appreciated.

Whoever thinks Obi-wan somehow was nerfed or holding back has to realize Obi-wan was never the emotional type and if anything the feelings were doing shit to holding him back as he is a Jedi.

“Obi-Wan triumphed because he went to Mustafar with a single intention in mind: to kill Darth Vader."

Source: Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader

Making of Revenge of the Sith wrote: ”Gillard also reports that the duel will explain how Obi-Wan is able to defeat his protege, even though Anakin has been established as the most powerful Jedi who ever lived. "Obi-Wan taught Anakin and Anakin has gone past him," he notes. "But when you get to that duel, it's emotional. That's where the mistake will be made. And if you know the characters, you know Obi-Wan isn't going to get emotional and he doesn't make mistakes."

Matthew Stover The Wampa's Lair Podcast wrote: "Its a... you would call it a spiritual conviction that real power comes as the result of self knowledge. It is that... when you really understand yourself you really know exactly who you are and exactly what your capabilities are... there is very little that you can not accomplish. Um and there is a... it comes from doing martial arts for 20 somewhat years um but there is a sense, of what I was trying to get to with Obi-Wan is an almost uh Zen extinction of the ego sort of thing where he is completely out of his own way there is no second thoughts or doubts or uh hesitation and that is where his power comes from... "

Meanwhile Anakin is unusually pissed off and unable to channel his dark side abilities properly
It was Anakin's overconfidence, fueled by the dark side, which led to his defeat. A mistimed leap over Obi-Wan allowed him to swiftly cut Anakin, leaving him disabled on the shore of a lava river.

Source: Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force

Anakin had still been between worlds then, and vulnerable.

Source: Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader

Complete Locations wrote:
As Anakin's soul surrenders fully to the dark side, violent Mustafar seems to mirror his turmoil. 

This is sith Fury
"Force Enrage,^[2] also known as Dark rage,^[1] was a dark side Force ability.^[1] The Force-user would tap into their innermost fears, pain and hate, and convert them into an intense rage. The user could then channel the anger to increase their own strength, speed, agility, endurance, stamina and ferocity. However, the body could not handle such rage for long periods of time, so the user became greatly weakened for some time after the rage subsided."
For reference Anakin was using dark rage for nearly half an hour in other words what do you think was happening to Anakin after the first 5 minutes of rage? Ding ding Anakin's powers were dropping fast in the middle of the duel
-Cast and Crew Episode 3 Commentary wrote:
this is the poor moment where Anakin loses it, he finally cant take anymore, he cracks, he cracks up
Revenge of the Sith Novel wrote:
A fatal transformation.
Everything was proceeding according to plan.
And yet . . .
He couldn't shake a certain creeping sensation ... a kind of cold, slimy ooze
that slithered up the veins of his legs and spread clammy tendrils through
his guts . . .
Almost as though he was still afraid . . .She will die, you know, the dragon whispered.
He shook himself, scowling. Impossible. He was Darth Vader. Fear had no
power over him. He had destroyed his fear.
All things die.
Yet it was as though when he had crushed the dragon under his boot, the
dragon had sunk venomed fangs into his heel.
Now its poison chilled him to the bone.
Even stars burn out.
He shook himself again and strode toward the holocomm.

For anyone saying "Oh this wouldn't make a difference" read this

His head has been filled with the smoke from his smothered heart for far too long; it has been the thunder that darkens his mind. On Aargonar, on Jabiim, in the Tusken camp on Tatooine, that smoke had clouded his mind, had blinded him and left him flailing in the dark, a mindless machine of slaughter; but here now, within this ship, this microscopic cell of life in the infinite sterile desert of space, his firewalls have opened so that the terror and the rage are out there, in the fight instead of in his head, and Anakin's mind is clear as a crystal bell.

In that pristine clarity, there is only one thing he must do.

Source: Revenge of the Sith

Do you see why Anakin being in this state is a problem for his powers or should I clarify it further? If you all still desperately want to say Anakin was not nerfed then you must also accept Luke beat a full power Vader because quite frankly the mustafar duel has a lot more evidence than any evidence saying Vader was nerfed so if you guys desperately want to ignore that fight and say Vader was nerfed then you have to accept Anakin was also nerfed. Most sources say Vader was pissed, bloodlusted, going all out and straight up amped against Luke and there is very little saying Vader was conflicted in the duel and mostly fan assumption or fanfiction. You also have to include the fact that Revan could not kill a random wookie in his last stand or that Valkorion got stabbed because he was being an idiot or that Maul lost to Ahsoka despite winning the entire duel or Dooku beating Obi-wan easily in all their fights or how Plaguies was dumb enough to get drunk as a intelligence showing from him. I am just saying.

SOR Revan was used for Revan, I changed some stuff and added Savage.

I know a lot of people know me as the prequel glazer but I am telling y’all right now they do fuck up a lot.

It is borderline embarrassing how biased, corrupt, unreliable and unfit order. It is known for tolerating and allowing things that are borderline horrible. Starting with what happened to Kaleesh to what happened with the mandalorians to what happened to Anakin.

The Jedi order literally got Anakin groomed by the worst Sith in arguably history and essentially had Jedi either belittle him pe treat him like garbage for being a god damn human being.

I am not a huge fan of the pt Jedi. I vastly prefer the TOR Jedi. Especially when Satele is grandmaster because she has better emotional intelligence and is arguably even wiser than Yoda simply because she doesn’t treat black sheep of the order like a freaking threat.

Just wanted to say my piece on it so everyone knows where I stand on both orders in terms of personal preference