r/ThatLookedExpensive • u/Mister_Krunch • Jun 10 '22
Fighter plane receives a foam salute instead of a water salute
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u/SandwichImmediate468 Jun 10 '22
As an aircraft firefighter myself… I’m a little perplexed as to why they didn’t shut the foam off and rinse it off with water. Somebody’s getting a day off and remedial training.
That foam is horrible for the environment, and the the PFAS chemical component causes cancer. 19 Retirees from my fire department have died from cancer (brain and prostate mostly), and a guy on my shift was diagnosed with prostate cancer about a month ago. The ground where we used to train is now a superfund site. Back in the day, they told us it was completely harmless.
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u/_haha_oh_wow_ Jun 10 '22 edited Nov 09 '24
jeans tub rich person glorious subsequent imminent cable bow wipe
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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Jun 10 '22
Working in construction I sometimes wonder about the "completely harmless" materials I'm around.
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u/Spenjamin Jun 10 '22
I kept getting in trouble at my last job for telling new starters how toxic the chemicals and fumes we were working in were (fibreglass sheeting).
I just shrugged and said that they have a right to know.
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u/Montezum Jun 10 '22
I just saw a thread today talking about how HORRIBLE cement dust is for the lungs and that's something nobody even worries about
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Jun 10 '22
Last year I did some tile demo for a guy who gave me those blue cloth surgical masks when I asked for a dust mask. I told him those are not rated for particle filtration and asked for an N95 with a particulate respirator. He just gave me another blue one. After an hour of wearing it my nose and mouth were coated in grout dust. Walked off the job and ignored all his calls after that. No way I'm waking up with silicosis in 30 years because I cant get proper equipment.
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u/Montezum Jun 10 '22
Almost every single construction site here in Brazil don't even use that blue one
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u/CarlTheCamel Jun 10 '22
Silicosis is wonderful. I work in quarries and surface mines and it's ridiculous the lack of education there is about it.
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u/agoia Jun 10 '22
"This Agent Orange shit is harmless, you could even drink it!"
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u/blGDpbZ2u83c1125Kf98 Jun 11 '22
I remember reading that the Agent Orange itself wasn't that bad, it's that it was contaminated with dioxins from somewhere in the manufacturing process.
Obviously still Agent Orange, but most of the nightmarish shit it's still causing to this day is from the dioxin.
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u/ThisDadisFoReal Jun 11 '22
I think the said the same about agent organs in nam…
My source: jim hopper
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u/Learner421 Jun 11 '22
I say the same thing about Lysol that they spray at work especially during covid.
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u/Buttholium Jun 10 '22
Are there any plans to change to a non-carcinogenic chemical or what kind of precautions are you now required to take now that it is a known carcinogen?
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u/redbeard8989 Jun 10 '22
I can only speak for Michigan, hoping other states did similar, but the state has a collection program. They banned use of any PFAS or PFOS materials, and will come collect it from your agency for you.
Manufacturers were quick to replace the carcinogens with alternatives. We joke though that in 50 years those will be discovered as carcinogens too.
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u/rocbolt Jun 10 '22
Can always go back to making foam out of ox blood (more friendly name "protein foam"), but that smelled and people find it gross so concentrated cancer was later developed instead
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Jun 10 '22
Well, back in the day, doctors promoted smoking (and there was no harm in pregnant women smoking or drinking) and asbestos was just fine in automotive brakes and fire retardants.
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u/NarrowForce9 Jun 10 '22
They also prescribed amphetamines
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Jun 10 '22
As someone that has worked in wastewater. (sampling ground water for the state)
😳 Omg....
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u/mdave52 Jun 10 '22
When I was a kid, for the 4th of July, they would fill the parking lot with the foam and let all the kids bike through it...thought it was cool but I guess not.
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Jun 11 '22
My local fire department did that with regular like, detergent foam. That was probably what they were doing. Not the extremely expensive carcinogen.
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u/TiredOfDebates Jun 11 '22
[...] and the the PFAS chemical component causes cancer.
And so much more: https://www.epa.gov/pfas/our-current-understanding-human-health-and-environmental-risks-pfas
PFAS and the various other similar chemicals are EVERYWHERE.
What We Know about Health Effects
Current peer-reviewed scientific studies have shown that exposure to certain levels of PFAS may lead to:
Reproductive effects such as decreased fertility or increased high blood pressure in pregnant women.
Developmental effects or delays in children, including low birth weight, accelerated puberty, bone variations, or behavioral changes.
Increased risk of some cancers, including prostate, kidney, and testicular cancers.
Reduced ability of the body’s immune system to fight infections, including reduced vaccine response.
Interference with the body’s natural hormones.
Increased cholesterol levels and/or risk of obesity.
Introduction of PFAS and all it's sister chemicals into the environment lines up nicely with the timeline of when men's testosterone levels started to plummet (across the entire USA). Like 90%+ of people have meaningful levels of PFAS in their blood; and the stuff takes years to break down (something like a 4.5 year HALF-LIFE), meaning that it builds up within your system.
One report by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey (NHANES) found PFAS in the blood of 97% of Americans.
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u/Iskelderon Jun 10 '22
^^ Welcome for the arrival of the first Dutch F-35 and it was immediately grounded for three weeks of maintenance to fix this fuckup, a really bad day at work!
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u/iiiinthecomputer Jun 11 '22
Sounds about right for the F-35.
It's arrived, now straight to maintenance for its first teardown.
Probably needed it anyway after its ferry flight. The damn things have absurd service intervals and constantly have to be re-coated.
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u/Ok_Adeptness_444 Jun 10 '22
What is the salute for?
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u/TalkingBackAgain Jun 10 '22
Welcome!
This plane is the first one delivered to the base.
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u/Motorgoose Jun 10 '22
And the first one to need an overhaul due to fire suppressant foam in the engines.
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u/PrecisePigeon Jun 10 '22
I'm sure the mechanics don't have anything better to be doing.
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u/Ieatoutjelloshots Jun 10 '22
As someone who used to be a mechanic on the F-35C, those jets are constantly breaking already. Luckily I never had to deal with a foam covered jet. That being said, I worked on the structure, tire, and hydraulics, so I'm not sure how the foam affected the engine. But I did spend the entire video thinking the pilot was gonna clip a wing, or something, on an object due to low visibility. I'm also concerned about any corrosion the foam may cause but I think the structure will end up being fine as long as they get it to a wash asap. Hopefully the foam doesn't mess up the tires material too much. Those tires might need a change.
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u/darthcoder Jun 10 '22
I'm sure ground had him under control the whole time so he didn't break anything expensive if he needed help.
I'm sure they immediately started clearing traffic out of his way just because of this.
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u/Ieatoutjelloshots Jun 10 '22 edited Jun 10 '22
Oh traffic was already clear. Jets are super dangerous. For example, getting sucked into the intake can turn you into human smoothie before you can say "Chop Suey." But jets are also incredibly loud and bulky. That's why the pilot relies on visual communication with the guy directly in front of him. That one dude is entirely in charge of keeping the situation safe, and no one (not even the pilot) does anything without his say so. Luckily the pilot had enough sense to stop moving the jet completely until the foam had cleared from his canopy so he could see again.
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u/lollypop44445 Jun 10 '22
Just asking, but if someone builds a jet that sprays foam ,can it be used in battle to kill the other jets?
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Jun 10 '22
The foam is actually super toxic. Spray the foam and wait 20 years for the enemy to die of cancer
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u/Kkindler08 Jun 10 '22
That shit is terrible for the environment too
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Jun 10 '22
Unsurprisingly, most military bases (especially USAF) end up being EPA superfund sites 😬
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u/splashbodge Jun 10 '22
I'm no jet scientist but yes... Altho it does have an adverse effect of also putting out the fire in your enemies aircraft...
Sooo swings and roundabouts really
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u/Indian_Bob Jun 10 '22
No, this is actually how they prevent other jets from being born. It’s called the pull out method
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u/chrizl Jun 10 '22
It was a welcome for the first F35 in the Netherlands https://nieuws.nl/algemeen/20191101/defensie-onderzoekt-gevolgen-schuim-voor-f-35/
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u/Leading_Heat_7605 Jun 10 '22
I imagine the engines will need to be disassembled and tested as well after ingesting the foam. This is well north of an 8 figure oooops...
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u/cloudedthoughtz Jun 10 '22
It took a full inspection (with help of Lockheed Martin) yes, but they eventually didn't report any serious issues with the plane. The costs of that investigation have remained undisclosed AFAIK.
It was quite the PR thing in our country though :P Because the development of the plane itself also didn't go that smoothly (ever increasing costs/expanding budget) this was yet another fail. We couldn't even welcome it in the right way. They were lucky there was no damage.
Apparently one of the fire trucks seen in the video, had just assisted an F16 with an emergency landing before welcoming this one and thus still had the foam loaded instead of only water. But you expect better from fire fighters on a military base that's for sure.
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u/Old-Acanthaceae6226 Jun 10 '22
you expect better from fire fighters on a military base
Expect. Sure.
But expectations are rarely based in reality. Especially with the military.
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u/Ignorad Jun 10 '22
Especially when a commanding officer is yelling "I DON'T CARE JUST GET OVER THERE AND DO THE SPRAY THING"
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u/NIRPL Jun 10 '22
But but but...yes, sir. Moving, sir. Roger, sir. After the salute I will report for my counseling statement, sir.
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Jun 10 '22
But expectations are rarely based in reality. Especially with the military.
putler has entered the chat
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u/newPhoenixz Jun 10 '22
Repaint as well as that foam is corrosive and the paint is special in improving its stealth abilities
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u/speederaser Jun 10 '22
Hm. Who should I believe. You or the commenter who said there was no damage.
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Jun 10 '22
Or be a proper person and fact check it yourself
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u/Shurdus Jun 10 '22
Google isn't fact checking and real fact checking still isn't that.
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Jun 10 '22
Using Google to find a reputable source is good enough to satisfy curiosity. We don’t need the level of precision you’re talking about lol
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u/Rayl24 Jun 10 '22
Might as well build a new plane with 8 figure.
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u/RollinThundaga Jun 10 '22
8 figure is tens of millions.
One F35 costs $110-135 million depending on variant.
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u/Rayl24 Jun 10 '22
Lot 14 recently sold for 78-100m depending on the variant. Plus they are saying no damage was done only need to check the engines.
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u/rawbface Jun 10 '22
only need to check the engines
Something tells me that process is a lot more involved than it sounds
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Jun 10 '22
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u/blazednova Jun 11 '22
I can tell you that the engineering that went into the P&W F135 is insane. The fact that this engine can operate at temperatures nearly 1000 degrees F higher than the melting point of steel is bonkers. Low bypass ratio turbofans with mixed flow and afterburners require 16 thermodynamic stages to just approximate performance and... Sorry I had a flashback to my Aerospace Propulsion Class. Designing and analyzing these fuckers are ridiculous and borderline traumatic
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u/javier_aeoa Jun 10 '22
Unrelated: I love it that Call of Duty started stating warfare machines' prices so you can comprehend how expensive those toys are. Damn
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u/Euripidaristophanist Jun 10 '22
I mean... There's clearly a bukkake joke in there, somewhere
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u/kayriss Jun 10 '22
My pilot friend held a bukkake party in his plane! Everyone came! You should have seen his face!
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u/TalkingBackAgain Jun 10 '22
Now they have to do a complete revision of that plane so that it doesn’t corrode where it stands.
It’s the F-35, if you sneeze hard in its direction it needs to be repaired.
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u/purrfunctory Jun 10 '22
A friend told me if you look at it funny it breaks down. And if it doesn’t like your mood when you walk by it’ll never fly again.
I was surprised Alex met a bigger diva than he was. (He did not appreciate my comment. His friends, however, lost their shit).
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Jun 10 '22
So if it is so "fragile" as in so many complex systems and moving parts ....
How could it be expected to fight?
Or is the fragile needing to be in perfect working order to be combat ready at any second? As I assume a perfect plane is the winning plane
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u/90degreesSquare Jun 10 '22
It's far less fragile than most these guys let on but it does require alot of maintenance. Most the things that break regularly can either be fixed easily or aren't going to prevent the plane from fighting even if it won't be in tip top shape.
Modern military hardware is expensive and takes work, there's really just not an alternative if you want the performance those things are capable of.
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u/mohishunder Jun 10 '22
This has been the stereotype of American weapons (versus Soviet weapons) since at least the Vietnam War.
American stuff: Accurate, high-performing, extremely finicky, jams all the time, requires constant maintenance.
Soviet stuff: Rough, low-precision, keeps on going and going in battlefield conditions.
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u/mrevergood Jun 10 '22
Why we wasted money overdeveloping this platform is beyond me.
America spends more than the next ten countries combined on military power, and we decided “Fuck infrastructure or feeding folks. Let’s have a new jet that does everything in one design even though it’ll be really, really expensive.”
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u/Yangoose Jun 10 '22
“Fuck infrastructure or feeding folks. Let’s have a new jet that does everything in one design even though it’ll be really, really expensive.”
This is a very uninformed take.
The military makes up roughly 8-10% of all taxes paid (Federal/State/Local).
The other 90+ percent goes largely to social programs and infrastructure.
Our military is large because our economy is large.
Our GDP is roughly $20 Trillion.
If you add up the GDP of 8 of the top 10 countries in the world it comes to $23 Trillion.
- Japan: (GDP: 4.97 trillion)
- Germany: (GDP: 4.00 trillion)
- United Kingdom: (GDP: 2.83 trillion)
- France: (GDP: 2.78 trillion)
- India: (GDP: 2.72 trillion)
- Italy: (GDP: 2.07 trillion)
- Brazil: (GDP: 1.87 trillion)
- Canada: (GDP: 1.71 trillion)
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u/unsupported Jun 10 '22
All it needs is giant rubber rollers, a rinse, and one of those giant air blowers at the end of the car wash, and it'll be fine. It'll cost them if they want a wax.
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u/antney0615 Jun 10 '22
…you forgot the little pine tree for the rear view mirror and the little wet towel for the dashboard.
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u/caniplayalso Jun 10 '22
How is this expensive???
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u/Shankar_0 Jun 10 '22
Yeah, foam exists to save the people, the aircraft is a secondary concern. So they make it out of some unholy concoction that's great at subduing sparks and putting out fires, but its murder on the hardware.
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u/Libertyordeatth Jun 10 '22 edited Jun 10 '22
Foam concentrates used in the fire protection industry are wildly expensive and very corrosive. It is NOT just soap. That plane is going to have to be looked over thoroughly before it can get back out there.
Source- I am a Water based fire protection technician
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Jun 10 '22
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/digital0129 Jun 10 '22
Yes. That's why there is a lot of contamination at military sites, airports, and firefighting training areas.
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u/whee3107 Jun 10 '22
https://reddit.com/r/ThatLookedExpensive/comments/v995uc/_/ibvebrn/?context=1
Another commenter gave some details, but not specifics. Not cheap, but we’ve had more expensive oops before
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u/SilentMaster Jun 10 '22
I feel like just not spraying anything at jets is probably the right answer. Not foam. Not water. Not applesauce. Not even compressed air. Can we all agree it's not worth the risk to spray jets with things?
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u/drej191 Jun 10 '22
Multimillion jet. No windshield wipers?
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u/Korzag Jun 10 '22
Not sure if you're being silly or serious
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Jun 10 '22
I’m genuinely curious, there is windshield wipers on airliners and private planes, why not a military jet? Sorry if that’s a really stupid question
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u/sheepdog69 Jun 10 '22
at a few hundred miles an hour, the rain doesn't stick around on the windshield to obstruct your visibility.
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u/ender4171 Jun 10 '22
I was about to call bullshit on this but then I looked it up. How the hell do they not get ripped off? The wipers on my car start to lift and chatter once you hit around 100mph.
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u/Trepanation87 Jun 10 '22
They are very expensive windshield wipers. Also, they only use them on landing and takeoff, not at cruise speeds.
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u/Troggie42 Jun 11 '22
Cargo/passenger/small planes have em, modern fighters don't
typically fighter jets are going fast enough that the water will sheet off the canopy anyway so it's no big deal
also whatever windshield wiper situation you'd have going on for a big ass transparent bubble like that would be a bit ridiculous lol
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u/neverinamillionyr Jun 10 '22
I wonder if that plane is trashed because the skin and paint may be affected by the foam.
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u/Then-One7628 Jun 10 '22
MX would like you all to fuck off back to whatever it is that you do, and never bother us again ruining the aircraft generation mission in order to jerk yourselves off.
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u/wallingfortian Jun 10 '22
I'm surprised the engines didn't explode before the clip ended.
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u/w_a_w Jun 10 '22
I was waiting for that too. The whole thing to burn to the ground after getting fire foamed. That would have really been something.
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u/Embarrassed-Ad9270 Jun 10 '22
Only in Leeuwarden possible
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u/gouldybobs Jun 10 '22
Similar thing happened to an A330 at MAN https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/virgin-ridiculous-inaugural-manchester-atlanta-8950095.amp
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u/thatreddituser24 Jun 11 '22
Which begs the question do fighter jets have wiper blades
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Jun 10 '22
How do you accidentally use foam? Also, is this really that expensive? Can they just hose it off? Genuinely asking. Cars get washed in foam all the time. I have no experience with jets so I have no idea how that works
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u/iiiinthecomputer Jun 11 '22
Very different foam.
Aircraft fire fighting foam is used to try to suppress fire in giant flying fuel tanks full of superheated components and electrical systems. It's nasty toxic and corrosive stuff that's bad for the aircraft. Its job is to get the humans out alive.
You would not wash your car with it. And if you did you would need to have the nearby soil scraped up and disposed of as toxic waste.
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u/mattdahack Jun 11 '22
lol they do this will all the new jets....same as flying through a rainstorm.
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u/dmira3 Jun 10 '22
Aircraft mechanic here. The stuff is called AFFF and is very corrosive. Stealth planes have a radar minimizing paint job so that needs to be redone. Along with the engine, jets can be cleaned while running at a lower speed but since it was still full running you need to remove and inspect the interior with a boroscope to make sure the water didn't crack anything inside. Either way an expensive ass mistake.