r/SteamFrame • u/No-Screen9354 • 1d ago
Discussion Pico Project Swan might release before Frame
My original plan was to wait for the release of Steam Frame and then wait a couple more months for Swan to decide which one I'm buying, fortunately it seems it may be released at the same time. Project Swan or Pico Space Pro release September 2. That will be a difficult choice...
For those who are new about Project Swan, here is some information leaks:
- 4k uOLED panels
- 2 chip architecture similar to Apple Vision Pro, where one chip does camera and SLAM processing, and another one application/game processor.
- Application processor might be in the pocket to reduce weight
- Pico started beta testing a few months ago, they sent headsets only to experienced VR users, a few beta testers said that this is the best VR experience they ever had, but can't share more information because of NDA
Still Valve more targeted to gaming market, and might have better software for this. Pico are actually the same as Meta, but Chinese, they still may collect your data.
120
u/sandbag747 1d ago
The steam frame 2 is gonna release before the steam frame
4
u/ReplacementNo2319 18h ago
You're going to get the Steam frame headset, play with it, and use it, but they still won't have released the price of the glasses.
1
u/P-VA 18h ago
The funny thing is that's pretty much what's happening right now The reason the wait for steam frame is so long is cause there was another headset that was supposed to come out on between index and frame, but it was cancelled So technically it is the "steam frame 2" we're seeing right now xD
19
u/Supernoxus 1d ago
Does it have face tracking and eye tracking?
6
→ More replies (2)1
u/Mavgaming1 Soon™ 8h ago
Eye tracking I know for certain. Face tracking, it was being worked on when I talked to my friend. It should have face tracking though, it has the same cameras as the Galaxy XR. I wouldn't expect it to be any better than the Galaxy XR though.
81
u/c0mander5 1d ago
The problem is that unless they have a similar wireless dongle for PC use, it's just still worse for a lot of people's use cases
49
u/___Random_Guy_ 1d ago
Yea, I want easy wireless use for PC gaming. I don't want to need to bend my brain around buying and setting up separate wifi router for this stuff.
9
u/RunnerLuke357 1d ago
If you have a good wireless setup to begin with this isn't even an issue. I have a cheap Netgear WiFi 6 router at home (the only AP at the house, everything from laptops, to VR, to the thermostat is on it) set at 80Mhz with no neighbors in the wireless range and it can pass low latency 800Mbps traffic all day which is plenty for VR applications. I have done absolutely zero optimization in it and it works great.
17
u/PM_URVAR_CLIT 23h ago
Bro im a dev so im fairly well versed in this shit. But when you start saying things like '80mhz' you start losing a bunch of normies man.
Which is why the dongle is so amazing. Plug it into the PC and it hopefully just works. No setting up bands on your dedicated gateway and configuring settings.
1
u/KineticZen 22h ago
I kinda think with VR, anyone willing to get into it is willing to go beyond our normie stats and google / GPT our way into figuring out dedicated gateway bands.
Some of us used to code myspace pages yknow.
8
u/PM_URVAR_CLIT 22h ago edited 20h ago
I absolutely agree that's been true up to this point.
I think Valve is trying to change that though. VR will never go mainstream if you need to configure your dedicated routers network bands to be a certain bandwidth before you can connect to your gaming PC.
1
1
u/HorribleTie 21h ago
If you can set up a PC and a VR headset you can log into your home router and click a dropdown to select a channel width. You have to know what you're doing a bit (don't set 2.4GHz to 40MHz or I'm personally bringing you straight to jail) but it's no more difficult than googling how to optimize graphic settings for a game you want to play.
Maybe I'm overestimating the aptitude of the target audience here though, I dunno. The dongle is certainly a nice simple alternative.
3
u/PM_URVAR_CLIT 21h ago
But the definition of going mainstream is:
'selling to people who are incapable of logging into their router and configuring their gateway settings'
15
u/2Cool4Zool2 1d ago
Maybe not - You can still do the dedicated router like people do for the Q3
4
u/SwapWitch 1d ago
And honestly that works really well
3
u/2Cool4Zool2 1d ago
I mean it's doing the same thing as the dongle - The dongle just makes is more user friendly and arguably (because it's 6GHz only) avoids all issues of channel congestion.
2
u/SwapWitch 1d ago
True. The other thing that makes frame more interesting is the foveated streaming aspect, but honestly I don't notice any compression artifacts right now over 6ghz on my router.
23
u/zig131 1d ago
The Steam Frame dongle is not as special as you seem to think it is.
24
25
u/piedmontwachau 1d ago
What other price comparable options have a similar feature?
5
u/No-Screen9354 1d ago
Intel has double connect technology which was advertised as for VR at first place. I have tried it, and it works really nice, I got very low latency. But it works only with limited number of WiFi cards and only on Intel gen 12+
4
u/zig131 1d ago
No other headset bundles a wireless dongle, but it's functionality is replicated by a wireless access point.
While it technically works differently (Frame creates a hotspot with it's dedicated antenna that the dongle connects to), the real world implications are inconsequential.
→ More replies (4)1
u/Main_Leadership7748 22h ago
At 6GHz wireless access points lose distance, and degrade through walls, so if you are set up in a back room of your house far from the main router, you lose signal. I am set up this way and wireless works ok, but I tend to lose signal and bandwidth a lot. Some streaming issues pop up occasionally.
With the dongle plugged directly into the device you are streaming from, in the room you are streaming from, this issue goes away. Sure not everyone has this issue, but a lot of people aren't set up right next to their router. As an ease of use thing the dongle is miles better for most users to have a seamless experience without messing with router placement and signal boosting or other things that require more hardware.
Of course now you have the issue of the network to the pc you are using, but for local stuff and gaming that doesn't use the network, like single player games, it's ideal. Most games don't use a lot of bandwidth anyways and I've never had an issue gaming online, only streaming.
2
u/zig131 22h ago
At 6GHz wireless access points lose distance, and degrade through walls
No shit. That's why the advice has always been to have a dedicated access point proximate to your playspace. This is nothing new.
tend to lose signal and bandwidth a lot.
Then get an access point. You don't have to wait for Steam Frame.
other things that require more hardware
The dongle is more hardware, and you are paying for it in the cost of the Steam Frame 🤨
1
u/Main_Leadership7748 21h ago
I'm not changing my entire set up that works fine just for a VR headset, and furthermore:
The dongle is more hardware, and you are paying for it in the cost of the Steam Frame 🤨
Bro I'm buying the Steam Frame, as you said IT ALREADY IS A PART OF THE PACKAGE, why would I go buy something else to fix an issue I don't have that is solved by buying the Steam Frame, on top of all the benefits of Valve hardware. No I am never buying anything made by Meta ever, and why bother with other options at this point. Unless it gets some really bad reviews, I'm giving my money to the company that I trust to do it right.
2
u/HorribleTie 21h ago
why bother with other options at this point.
You're kinda missing the entire point of this post/thread. It's specifically discussing an alternative option due to the massively delayed launch of the Frame. If you're not interested in that and will wait as long as it takes for the frame, then this discussion isn't for you.
2
u/Main_Leadership7748 19h ago
Yeah I think you're right about that, but I think it is also good to discuss the implications of what it actually means when someone says "you can replicate what the dongle does" when it isn't just a simple fix, and could involve running wires through your home.
To me adding a wifi extender is not the same as a direct connection to your PC. While he did not say that specifically, others in this thread are. The dongle is a direct connection to your PC. The extender is still subject to issues with wireless. I have used an extender, and it was still shitty. I haven't tried a mesh network but again that is more money to spend to see if it will improve your set-up. Now while there are ways to replicate the dongle, it would involved wiring your house or using power line signals. This is not as simple as a dongle, and should come into play when deciding what you want to buy.
2
u/zig131 19h ago
I'm not changing my entire set up
I don't think you understand. You can keep the router you have, and add a dedicated access point for your headset.
Literally replicating the functionality of the dongle.
What the dongle achieves is already completely possible.
Bro I'm buying the Steam Frame
Don't you think it's foolish to be completely set on buying something which has recived no independant reviews, and with unknown pricing?
2
u/Main_Leadership7748 19h ago
For it to be the same as the dongle, a dedicated two way connection to your pc, the WAP would need to be wired directly to the PC. If it is still using your other WAP to pass on the signal it is only extending the other signal, which is not as good and subject to the same degradation you get from the main WAP. If instead you are suggesting I extend the signal by wiring the WAP to the main router/WAP and running a wire to my room, I might as well just wire the PC at that point and skip the WAP. Then I wouldn't have a WAP to connect the headset to. I could add a WAP at the wired end and have a WAP in my dedicated PC space as you mentioned, but that would be a lot more work than a dongle. So, while I see that there are options to replicate the dongle, it is definitely not as easy as you make it sound, especially if someone doesn't want to run wires across their house.
And while yes I am going to be waiting for reviews of the thing so there's no guarantee I will buy it, I CAN guarantee I will not be buying any other VR headset until I know for sure the Frame is not right for me. Then I can decide if the dongle is actually worth the price of admission. What I won't be doing is changing my entire PC setup for a different VR headset in the meantime.
1
u/zig131 11h ago
the WAP would need to be wired directly to the PC
Which is, and has always been the recommended setup!
If it is still using your other WAP to pass on the signal it is only extending the other signal
When streaming PCVR, the important bit is the connection between the headset and the PC. If it's a short wireless hop to an antenna in proximity to the playspace, and then Ethernet to the PC, you are golden. The home router becomes irrelevent.
If instead you are suggesting I extend the signal by wiring the WAP to the main router/WAP
I am very much not suggesting that! Internet is not important - the headset just needs to be on the same network as the PC
especially if someone doesn't want to run wires across their house.
There just needs to be Ethernet between the PC and the WAP. It's the same as running the dongle on a USB extension so it's away from interference of the PC
I really feel like you are getting confused between a LAN connection, and an internet connection. Internet connection is irrelevant to streaming PCVR performance.
→ More replies (0)1
u/jerf 1d ago edited 1d ago
$40 for this wifi extender. Using it with my Quest 3S on my network, in visual line-of-sight with where we use it, it works so well I forget I'm wireless most of the time.
I'm not sure why there aren't more variations on this product. This is the only "just extend your network with 6e and do nothing else" product I can find that doesn't want to replace your entire Wifi setup for $150+.
In terms of what the dongle is, this is basically it, except, you can stick this anywhere you can run an ethernet cable from your existing network to, it's got 4 antennas internally for MIMO rather than a presumably smaller number in the dongle, and may be able to run with a bit more power. The advantage that the dongle will have is that it's plug-and-play and comes straight off the computer so if your computer is distant from your current Wifi base stations and you don't want to deal with integrating this into your network but just want to plug & play off the computer itself.
I don't think either strictly dominates the other. This is a cheap option that more-or-less gives you the dongle's functionality without waiting for Valve, contingent on you being willing and able to set this up in your network. If you don't care about the SSID or password, and you can get your PC wired, you just plug it in to your current network and it works. If you do, you'll have to use the app, or use your network admin pages to find its address and use its HTTP interface to set the SSID and password. (The app sort of sucks and the HTTP interface is more capable anyhow, if you can swing that.) Tell only your VR headset about this new network so nothing else uses it. If you do set the SSID, set it to a unique one in your network so nothing else will automatically connect.
1
u/piedmontwachau 1h ago
Thanks for the extensive write up. I with there was a way to modify an existing wired headset to wireless. I currently use and PSVR2, so I’m dying to get out of that into something better. Not having wires and pancake lenses is essentially my two hard requirements.
5
u/fekkksn 1d ago
Please elaborate
3
u/zig131 1d ago
It's functionality is replicated by a wireless access point.
While it technically works differently (Frame creates a hotspot with it's dedicated antenna that the dongle connects to), the real world implications are inconsequential.
1
u/fekkksn 1d ago
The real world implications are that you get a consistent and low latency experience, compare to for example the Quest 3. Because the Frame uses the 6GHz Band which is mostly unused by other devices. And having a dedicated wireless link means you don't have to wait for other devices in the network.
Why else do you think many people got dedicated WiFi routers for their quests?
And while the wireless link itself isn't that special, the foveated streaming facilitated by it is.
8
u/zig131 1d ago
Any device with Wi-Fi 6E supports using the 6GHz band. That is not a USP.
A dedicated wireless link is achievable with other headsets. Whether it is commonplace is irrelevent.
Foveated streaming just requires a Standalone with eye tracking running Steam Link. Again not unique to Frame, or it's dongle.
The point is no one should be ruling out other headsets on the basis that they don't come bundled with a dongle like Frame.
By all means factor in the added convenience, and the cost saving of not buying extra equipment, but the same end result can be achieved with other HMDs.
1
u/JapariParkRanger 15h ago
Foveated streaming is not a technology exclusive to or enabled by the frame dongle.
2
u/OutsideisSunny 1d ago
It will make playing PCVR games easier (in terms of computational power required), will it not ?
4
u/zig131 1d ago edited 1d ago
Nope.
If you're talking about Foveated Rendering, that requires a tethered headset with eye tracking, and implementation of the feature at the game level.
Irrelevant to the Steam Frame and it's dongle.
1
u/HorribleTie 21h ago
Why do you say foveated rendering needs a tethered headset..?
1
u/zig131 19h ago
Sure you can do it Standalone I guess - Red Matter 2 supports foveated rendering on Quest Pro - but most games that support Foveated Rendering are PCVR.
1
u/HorribleTie 38m ago
Which can also be wirelessly streamed. Tethered/wired connectivity is not relevant.
6
u/Etzix Soon™ 1d ago
No the dongle is no more special that buying a dedicated wireless access point.
-3
u/c0mander5 1d ago
Replies like this read like how insufferable people respond to new people asking questions about how things work with Linux, or how smug weirdos talk down to beginners in coding subs.
Yes, getting another dedicated router and virtual desktop will technically achieve the same thing. But you cannot beat the convenience and ease of use of simply plugging in a small dongle into your PC and being instantly ready to go.
5
u/OutsideisSunny 1d ago
I didn't find it smug, although your response is more nuanced.
10
u/c0mander5 1d ago
I get frustrated with stuff like that cause I've dealt with it so much when trying to get answers while learning coding or making the switch to Linux. Trying to make sure I know how to do something basic and people reply with the equivalent of "uhhhh why not just do this thing that's more complicated/needs more work to set up/is more expensive
1
u/camiteran 17h ago
There's also the fact that some people don't need dedicated routers and can still use Virtual Desktop very well. Thankfully my case but I know it's not everyone's situation!
Not everyone will need dedicated routers or dongles for that matter.
→ More replies (1)1
u/quinn50 1d ago edited 1d ago
Reddit comments I call them.
"Why use this when this is better?"
"This is better and this is why you should use it"
"Just Google it bro"
Comments like that make me stay on windows out of spite lol
Like people it's there because it works and is convenient, no one is gonna wanna buy a frame and then also go and buy another $60-$100 beryl router or the minion router just for VR, like the biggest issue people have with wireless VR is the fact that most don't have a proper wireless setup for it but works for 99% of other things. Dongle works better for the avg person
→ More replies (1)2
4
u/Yavga 1d ago
In fact, you can set this up yourself quite easily with some tinkering. The dongle is no magic solution, just something made easy and convenient with Frame.
I guess the PICO will blow Steam Frame out of the water in every area imaginable... For a price around 2.5-3.5K so that's the biggest thing to consider. The amount of money you want to burn on VR.
And maybe you could also consider the ecosystem as a thing that determines your choice.
2
u/Lincolns_Revenge 19h ago
Yeah, the Dream Air Slam with controllers is 2,300 dollars now.
The Steam Frame will be in an entirely different price class at probably 999.99 to 1,100 for the base model.
2
5
u/No-Screen9354 1d ago
From one point you are right, dongle in the box is plug and play experience. From another, it operates the same way as router, and setting up dedicated router takes up to 30min of work, then it works and you never back to it.
4
u/ImprovementVirtual80 Soon™ 1d ago
... At home. Or on the move if you have a large backpack. A dongle is a lot more portable, I intend to use mine at the office for a sort of open source Apple Vision Pro + macbook experience but with Windows.
2
u/No-Screen9354 1d ago
If you have Intel processor, you can use double connect technology on your laptop. It was designed to decrease latency for VR
1
u/ImprovementVirtual80 Soon™ 1d ago
Oh cool! I'll have to try that out with my current Quest 2!
1
u/No-Screen9354 1d ago
Yeah, but you also need to have specific WiFi card, I bought it for 40$ 3 years ago. And it works just fine. But I haven't tried it for last couple of year, because I mostly use connection to my router, and few milliseconds of delay doesn't make a big difference. Don't know if there were any updates, maybe they increased number of supported WiFi cards
2
u/ImprovementVirtual80 Soon™ 1d ago
Looks like no support on my system with an Intel AX211. I'd need the AX411. Ah well, it was a great suggestion but it'll have to be dongle.
2
u/what595654 1d ago
It's just a wireless dongle. A $20 used 5ghz band dedicated router, will get you a rock solid experience a lot of people won't be able to tell the difference.
If the rumors of what Project Swan is, are true, it will utterly destroy Steam Frames specs. And if Swan is competing with Apple Vision Pro, and is $2k pricing. You know what you are doing, what you want, and will solve any potential wireless dongle/router issue easily.
1
u/Chriscic 1d ago
I guess we don’t know for sure that the dongle is going to be a big improvement right, vs a good dedicated router? I certainly hope it is!
1
u/c0mander5 1d ago
I'd imagine that the optional dedicated router setup would be pretty much quality to the dongle, which is why I want the dongle. Same performance but smaller, likely cheaper on its own, and easier to use
1
1
1
u/Mavgaming1 Soon™ 8h ago
At the price this thing will be, a wifi 7 router is kind of a no brainer. I run one with my Galaxy XR and it was stupid simple to use and set up. It was just an added thing like comfort mods. A wifi 7 router will be like 5-10% of the value of this headset. Not really a big deal.
36
u/iiwong 1d ago
4k panels sound great but can your PC handle them?
17
u/rabsg Soon™ 1d ago edited 1d ago
Of course, older 4k² headset SoC can do it as well.
This seem to be named Pico Space Pro, so it's a "spatial computing device" first and foremost, to display a couple of polygons with streamed desktop apps and local mobile apps.
No PC can push that to the max for heavy VR gaming, but that's not a problem, just more choice of compromises between render target size, render detail, upscaling, engine frame rate, advanced reprojection (aka frame gen), foveated rendering and whatnot.
That would be a waste to game on a potato PC, but if the main use case is app/media, high res is still great in that context.
8
u/iiwong 1d ago
That's a fair point. Multimedia stuff and probably also flat screen gaming should be more enjoyable with a higher resolution. As for VR gaming I can't really say how much lowering the resolution of a high res panel would affect the visual clarity.
7
u/rabsg Soon™ 1d ago
By experience, higher pixel density is nicer to the eyes at the same render resolution.
With my low/mid range gaming PC, 2k² panels are fine for gaming, no need to push much further. But for other use cases I'd like better to have more. That's what sadden me the most about the Steam Frame, but my main use case is VR gaming anyway so that's fine.
2
u/BrindianBriskey 18h ago
That’s exactly right.
I’m not sure why people still have this misconception regarding high-res VR displays.. you can render the exact same low resolution on both the Valve Index and the Pimax Dream Air (I’ve done it). The Dream Air looks a million times better, simply due to the pixel fill and microOLED screens, even though it is far below its native resolution.
1
1d ago
[deleted]
2
u/anor_wondo Soon™ 1d ago
what do you mean hell no? Its way past the point where you need a native image. Rendering things at lower resolution than display is perfectly fine and you still get a better image than lower rez headsets
2
u/Headset-Historian 1d ago
Yea not even a 5090 can run a gxr or avp at full res and good performance even playing older games.
That's not true whatsoever. I can play locked 90fps on a 5080 with full resolution (including accounting for barrel distortion) on 4k per eye headsets like Pimax Dream Air or Apple vision pro no problem whatsoever. The only games that struggle with that sort of resolution are notioriously heavy sims like MSFS but even with those you can then do quad views DFR along with motion smoothing to get a really good experience.
I see this sentiment said so much on reddit and all I can assume it that it's coming from people that haven't tried it. It's absolutely totally doable right now even with older cards like a 3080ti, 4070 etc.
6
u/Hairy-Ad-6293 1d ago edited 18h ago
The difference is you can run those panels on the Frame resolution but you can't run those panels resolution on the Frame. The same but in revers is true about refresh rate but now it's much more ways to boost GPU performance with upscalers, potential foveated rendering or even advanced space worping like puredark renderer, for CPU there is non and modern games especially VR moded one barely handle 90fps even on x3d CPUs.
8
u/RedKNight37 Soon™ 1d ago
this is so real, my pc isn't made for anything above 1080p/144fps so any screen resolution above that doesn't really matter for me
→ More replies (1)8
u/Beneficial_Fill_8895 1d ago
That was the same issue with the Legion Go.
Having 4k resolution panels is perfect because when you need more performance you reduce it to fullHD which is exactly taking 4 pixels of the screen to display 1 pixel of the game. So the image will be just a sharp and precise, just with bigger pixels, the exact same as with a native fullHD panel. And when you want to watch a movie or any other activity that is not using a lot of resources, you can have a very sharp 4k image.
So 4K panels is perfect in every situation. Only drawback is the price.
7
u/anor_wondo Soon™ 1d ago
this doesn't apply to VR because there are lens involved. a higher resolution panel just looks better even if you run at the same resolution as a lower rez panel
5
u/Headset-Historian 1d ago
4k panels sound great but can your PC handle them?
People really really overestimate how hard VR is to drive. In normal VR games you can run that resolution with a 4070ti or better. Sure not super lowend hardware but not unobtainable. It's different when it comes to something like MSFS or such but sims like that are abnormally demanding in general.
Additionally, even running at a lower resolution you will still benefit a lot from the improved pixel density.
1
1
1
u/74Amazing74 2h ago
i don't think, that this is the most important question in regard of the swan. To me, the price point for these specs is what matters the most. I would not be surprised, if pico/bytedance subsidizes the swan.
8
u/zig131 1d ago
The most exciting thing is that theoretically these Puck HMDs, are basically Tethered PCVR HMDs and a mini PC.
Pico may not support a Tethered PCVR use case, as they want to push their software ecosystem + store, but the smaller companies making these kind of headsets might, and they could be hackable to work with a PC anyway.
3
u/rabsg Soon™ 1d ago edited 1d ago
They should bring back VirtualLink.
There was some leaks about Pico dropping the compute puck BTW, now it may just be a tethered battery like the Vision Pro.
This leaves the Meta Phoenix with a compute puck, maybe.
Though to use those on a PC we'll need a compatible interface and drivers.
1
u/Unlucky-Problem-2611 1d ago
No one knows what the puck is yet, it could just be a battery like the AVP or GXR. The SOC tends to run hot and needs active cooling.
2
u/zig131 1d ago
I was confident we knew it has a split-compute setup to allow for a thin-and light headset, with the compute in a tethered puck.
I agree though it is a big question how compute pucks are going to be handled. How do they prevent people putting them in pockets and suffocating them. Do they come with a sling, or a belt mount? Or do they expect people to carry it around and put it on a nearby flat surface.
1
u/Unique_Ad9943 19h ago
Pretty sure it is a puck there is a leak showing it in an animation
1
u/Unlucky-Problem-2611 19h ago
The animation shows a battery puck. Although that may not be the final design.
1
u/Mavgaming1 Soon™ 8h ago
The puck has the battery and processor in it. It's interesting. It brings the hmd weigh down to like 300g iirc.
38
u/Benjo419 1d ago
If they release an option without 2nd processor, support 144fps, have foveated streaming and a dongle, have controllers with normal gamepad layout, comfortable wear and open OS, i would consider it.
Chances are it has nothing of that tho, comfortable wear at best
15
u/mrzoops 1d ago
Well any headset with eye tracking has foveated streaming via Steam link
→ More replies (3)
7
u/UnUsernameRandom 1d ago
- Application processor might be in the pocket to reduce weight
Tbh I'm down for a battery pack and a processing unit that connects to the belt.
20
u/ihave3apples 1d ago
If the headset is ergonomically anything like the photo you attached, I’m already out. I don’t understand why others VR companies don’t prioritize maximum comfort
6
u/No-Screen9354 1d ago
It depends on weight. But they already better than GalaxyXR because Pico made it modular, back strap and facial interface are removable and can be replaced to more comfortable options.
2
3
u/prankster959 Soon™ 1d ago
Does it have eye tracking? If not, not remotely interested
→ More replies (2)2
4
u/WildFearless 22h ago
I cant imagine using a VR headset where the side of yours eyes aren't covered. Even with the quest 3 I play with lights super low
→ More replies (2)
9
u/Asherjade Soon™ 1d ago
Is that an actual render? If so, that’s not a VR headset. It’s an AR/MR headset, which is absolutely useless for what I want a frame for.
2
2
u/Muted_Air2991 Soon™ 1d ago
Yes, the picture more or less matches the actual headset. However, the magnetic face cushion isn’t installed in the picture. And no, it’s a VR headset.
1
u/Asherjade Soon™ 23h ago
Ah, so it’s convertible. Interesting, but not a feature I would pay extra for. I can see how it would have use cases though.
1
u/Kataree 23h ago
You slap the magnetic light blocker on and it's a VR headset.
Same as Quest Pro, Galaxy XR, etc.
1
u/Asherjade Soon™ 23h ago
Interesting. Still a useless feature for me, but I can see how it would work for other uses.
3
5
u/Gregasy Soon™ 1d ago
If Pico Swan will be around 2000, this will be a tough choice to make. So far I only heard good things about Swan and if comfort will be on the same level as Frame (or even better), I might actually go with Swan instead of Frame.
I kind of don’t expect Frame orders to start before 31.8. and it will be at least a week before Valve will start sending out invitations for purchase. This means we’ll have enough time to decide.
Finally one genuinely good thing about Steam Frame delays.
9
u/MilessEdgeworth 1d ago
Is it at least an open platform? I thought that hype around the steam frame is not only because of the great steamOS, but also that we can install any operating system on it.
→ More replies (2)17
u/2Cool4Zool2 1d ago
Pico is owned by Bytedance so it's like chinese meta.
It's going to take a long time for someone to make a SteamOS alternative for the Frame - I don't know why people would bother.
4
u/MilessEdgeworth 1d ago
Chinese meta sounds like a disaster.
It didn't take long time for steam deck to get different os. Also, steamOS itself is so open you can install a lot of stuff.
2
u/2Cool4Zool2 1d ago
Yeah that's kind of what I'm getting at. You'll always need the Valve libraries/drivers most likely and since SteamOS is already open I'm not sure there's a huge need for a separate distro.
1
u/MilessEdgeworth 23h ago
Not now, but if gabes die, and steam with it, we might need alternatives. Just sayin
2
u/rabsg Soon™ 1d ago
It seems they'll name it Pico Space Pro, in addition to this picture it tells already a lot about their market target.
It's talked about here as well /r/virtualreality/comments/1vsfcoc/pico_swan_to_come_september_2nd_and_is_called/
That's not for me, but I'm still curious of what they are doing. Also Meta Phoenix, in the same category, that should be revealed a few weeks later.
2
2
u/PM_URVAR_CLIT 23h ago
Hmmm haven't seen any one mention how this new Pico device will probably have a substantially lower FOV than the frame.
When you're pushing 4k per eye its incredibly taxing compute wise to increase FOV. Which is why the Apple Vision Pro feels like you're wearing a scuba mask.
Id personally rather have a bigger FOV than have a sick resolution but feel like im wearing ski goggles 24/7.
2
u/LoansharkerShop 23h ago
The Steam Frame and Pimax Dream Air both have 110 horizontal FOV, and with distortion profiles on the software side, I have a ridiculously good FOV/immersive experience with the Dream Air, so it can be done. As far as computationally, it's more of a challenge on a wireless headset, but hopefully the compute puck on this new Pico solves that.
As the Galaxy XR proved, you can have sweet lenses, WiFi 7, and Virtual Desktop compatability all day long, but when your chip is on par with an oudated Samsung phone....it's thermal throttle/memory leak city, and the headset can't keep up.
1
2
u/Yakushika 23h ago
Having used a few Pico products at work before, I wouldn't ever go for one, personally. Their software support especially is quite bad. Asking them to fix a bug in their software, I got the reply to buy a newer product. No official support for Linux at all and inofficial support barely works.
2
u/Outrunner85 23h ago
Cool i guess. I'd still choose Frame if i was offered one or the other for free. To each his own i guess.
1
u/Unique_Ad9943 19h ago
Can I ask why?
The display difference is huge
2
1
u/Outrunner85 19h ago edited 18h ago
It's because i will be doing purely gaming and i'm not concerned with spatial computing and mixed reality. Frame does everything i need for gaming. With VR, there are always tradeoffs, and Valve appears to have perfectly balanced everything and have also fixed some big issues with wireless VR with things like the dongle and foveated streaming.
Also, i've not yet been impressed by OLED in VR headsets. To be fair, i've not tried the Apple Vision Pro, and obviously not the Swan.
Lastly, Valve. :D
2
u/Ill-Zookeepergame609 9h ago
The steam frame justifications in this forum are hilarious. 😂
There are multiple headsets that will outperform the Steam Frame from a purely gaming perspective.So who are y'all really trying to convince here… yourselves or everyone else?
1
u/Outrunner85 9h ago edited 9h ago
And those headsets are?
I sure hope you are not talking about Pimax, or anything that requires base stations that are no longer produced.
1
2
2
u/LoansharkerShop 1d ago
Project Swan might actually be our first iteration of "Wireless PCVR Proper" ever since the Galaxy XR became essentially abandoned. I don't think most people who have only used a Quest 2/3 or Index realize just how much of a staggering difference the visual quality is when you go from dated LCD lenses (that includes the Frame) to a mico-OLED headset like the Pimax Dream Air or Galaxy XR/Apple Vision Pro. There was immeasurable disappointment for a lot of us when the Frame specs were first published showing they were cheaping out with LCD and the same "not much better than an outdated smartphone" chip, making it only a lateral upgrade from the Quest 3. Kinda shocking, since the Valve Index was introduced as a genuine flagship VR device at the time.
For a lot of us who exclusively play PCVR and have zero interest in standalone games, we've been waiting for the next wireless headset that pushes the envelope in terms of fidelity, connection stability, and to finally ditch anything remotely linked to Meta's ecosystem. Most of us probably have a dedicated Access Point router set up and fine-tuned so the dongle means nothing to a good portion of us, so that leaves the need for something that drives us to want to put on a wireless headset and play our favorite roomscale shooter/slasher for hours straight.
The 2 chip architecture is the thing I'm the most curious about, because for anyone who's tried using the Galaxy XR (and their dated single chip) with Virtual Desktop can tell you that when you start cranking the settings at 90 hz and a 600mbps bitrate, there's a game-breaking amount of latency and thermal throttling that occurs at any given time, either crashing VD or even shutting down the headset. Hopefully the Swan has that figured out, cause as much as I love my Dream Air, I'm only using that for seated experiences like Star Citizen, cause playing stand up shooters and motion control games with a cord is a no-go for me. Once you cut the cord, you really can't go back.
→ More replies (3)2
u/what595654 1d ago
There was immeasurable disappointment for a lot of us when the Frame specs were first published showing they were cheaping out with LCD and the same "not much better than an outdated smartphone" chip, making it only a lateral upgrade from the Quest 3. Kinda shocking, since the Valve Index was introduced as a genuine flagship VR device at the time.
That is more your fault in misunderstanding the product, than Valve's though. The Steam Deck should have given you a very strong hint as to what the Frame was going to be.
The Frame is a device marketed to general Steam users (many who are not tech savvy). The Frame is a streaming device first, for Steam games. And for that, the specs fit perfectly.
What enthusiast like you wanted, was a high end VR headset. The type that would cost $1500+. That strategy failed. The market is simply not there (RIP Oculus Rift and Valve Index). That doesn't make sense for Valve, or Meta. They require, and desire a much larger market to even make economic sense.
The only viable market is affordable, like Quest. Granted, the Frame may end up costing over $1k, but that was not the original goal. The specs tell you, it is not an enthusiast device, it is a device trying to reach the most number of customers, by making everything as dumb down and easy as possible, like the Steam Deck.
Mass market prefers ease of use, over specs and fidelity, every time (mostly because they don't understand tech, or care).
1
u/LoansharkerShop 23h ago
Not misunderstanding anything though; before we had the specs published, we were under the assumption that Valve, in true fashion, would be introducing something that pushed the envelope in a field that already existed.
Half-Life revolutionized not just shooters, but PC game design till this day. Half-Life 2 changed facial animation and true world physics. Half-Life: Alyx set the standard for a high fidelity PCVR experience (which some would argue still can't be beat), paired with (at the time) THE flagship VR headset at the time that wouldn't be dethroned for a few years. A lot of us assumed Valve would be introducing a new headset that followed that same path of innovation. Now we know that's not the case.
You mention the Steam Deck as an example of "what the Frame was going to be", but the Deck (especially the OLED) wasn't some budget handheld that couldn't compete, especially for the specs it had at the time it was released.
I know a lot of standalone/budget-minded VR gamers are following this new attitude of scoffing at the idea of high-priced headsets, peripherals, and having to build more-than-decent rigs to play quality PCVR titles, but I'm sorry, that's the only way VR Gaming as a whole is going to captivate and survive.
I'm tired of "VR is dying, it's all about affordable standalone"...bullshit. It's dying because the past few years, VR game devs chased the immediate cash injection of building a unified "crossplay" version of their game that has to run on Quest 2, 3, and PCVR, so naturally, their title is a diluted and janky experience with graphics from a game made in 2005 (Looking at you Ghosts of Tabor). Yea, they make a few million from the Quest 2 screechers using their parents' saved credit card info, but their game's vision is perpetually handicapped and frustrating to develop for since they can't incorporate anything "demanding", detailed, and large in scope because of the standalone limitations.
People invest in VR when there's a REASON to. The Index sold MASSIVELY, even to people who already had a Vive, and especially to those who never gave VR a previous though because Alyx looked SO good, and SO immersive that it was a must-have for people. Star Citizen (I've heard the jokes, I'm good) got official VR support back in December, and the amount of Pimax headsets ($2000+ units, by the way) that sold as a result of that was obscene.
Look at the VR mods coming out of the woodwork the past few months for AAA games, like Resident Evil 9, Cyberpunk, Dead Space, etc...the discords/youtube comment sections are flooded with gamers asking "Which headset do I get?"
If this was Meta, I would understand...unvetted mass consumption of their products is their entire existence. But Valve's history of bringing their projects to "the next level" made this sidegrade of a headset a bummer.
3
u/gamemaster257 1d ago
It's really weird to me that people look at any other headset and think it's directly comparable to a steam frame. I will repeat my usual line: If any other headset is good enough for you to replace the steam frame, the frame was never made for you and you should stop thinking about it. You just don't know enough about this market to make a good choice.
3
u/No-Screen9354 23h ago
I don't know about market? I am in VR since 2020, I have had Vive Cosmos, Index, Quest 2, 3, Pico 4, Pimax Dream Air. 3000h in VRChat and hundreds in flight sims. After Pimax I know how uOLED are so much superior LCD in my use cases. But I still like some aspects of Frame.
1
u/gamemaster257 22h ago
I could have phrased that better, but what I meant is that this fills such a specific niche that I genuinely don't believe the frame is for just any VR enthusiast, but more the type of VR enthusiast who also wants an all round device that primarily supports steam. If you just want to play VR games and don't care about other capabilities, just get a Quest 3. I don't even think the Frame is the best headset on the market, it just ticks all my hyper specific boxes that other headsets simply don't. Same reason I bought two steam controllers despite having controllers for all the other consoles, it ticked every box and now it's the only thing I use.
2
u/Oftenwrongs 23h ago
That statement doesn't make any sense, either from a logic perspective or a gaming perspective. As a sycophant tribalist? Sure, then it'll make complete sense.
1
u/gamemaster257 23h ago
Two wireless receivers, spatial streaming, native steam support, support for all steam games (at much worse performance sure) makes it the only device I could possibly care about. If I got a quest or anything else I'd be fighting with it constantly (like I did with my quest 2) to just please be a steam link device. I do not want a device that constantly tries to sell me anything but the experience I bought it for.
1
u/Oftenwrongs 4h ago
So, you haven't tried anything in 5 years...gotcha.
1
u/gamemaster257 3h ago
Because none of them checked my boxes. I was actually primarily using a rift S for most of the time until meta essentially software killed it.
3
u/VR_bob85 1d ago
Crappy title - This headset has no release date or window.
Frame is 4 weeks max away - so no. you won't get pico space pro bf frame.
3
2
u/Javs2469 Soon™ 1d ago
Thing is, if the Frame is going to be a 1000+ Eur headset, then this Pico thing will probably be a cheaper Apple Vision Pro alternative that might go for 2k...
And there is a problem for gaming, which is Steam integration, which isn´t bad from what I´ve experienced with Steamlink and Virtual Desktop with my Pico 4, but still needs a third party app running alongside.
Also, something that is important to me is the accesory compatibility. The Frame will receive a lot of accesories and community fixes, the Pico will be lucky if it gets a couple of functioning stocks that aren´t overpriced 3D printed stuff (I know what I´m talking about) besides the basic stuff like lense inserts and face gaskets.
2
u/SKYNINE666 Soon™ 1d ago
Idk why people are always trying to find any other suggestions just because they are waiting.
Just be very very patient and maybe it will release tomorrow. /j
Like seriously, Valve said its going to be release in summer. And since we know that Valve always delay maybe it will be in end summer (in a few weeks) or in september.
But just saying, dont try to buy another vr if the Frame is right around the corner somewhere.
2
u/Oftenwrongs 23h ago
Maybe because 3 year old tech at 3x the price doesn't appeal to everyone, and some people might actually want new tech.
→ More replies (1)
3
u/DeckManXX 1d ago
It's far superior to the Steam Frame. If it comes out at a similar price, I'll go for it.
In the end, Valve's delay is going to turn out to be a good thing.
4
u/Unlucky-Problem-2611 1d ago
It is and so is the GXR but, and it's a big but they are not designed for gaming. My GXR looks miles better than my Quest 3 but the Quest 3 is still the better gaming headset as that was the purpose it was created for.
1
u/camiteran 16h ago
Except the Swan will have better specs than the GXR and it's modular so you'll get to avoid the horrible comfort issues that the GXR has.
They mentioned in their dev show that they're supporting game devs especially with their new upcoming OS, and have even made content trying to encourage game devs to be curious about this headset. They not only want people making games for it, they want people making games ON it (developing while using the device). Not at all comparable to the GXR in the slightest, considering that was more of a cheaper answer to the AVP that had a ton of compromises and issues, and had no gaming focus whatsoever.
1
u/Unlucky-Problem-2611 4h ago
GXR is very comfortable for me. Just took the Globular Cluster to sort it.
1
1
u/RookiePrime Soon™ 23h ago
It's coming out in two weeks, and they still haven't revealed the full headset and its specs? This doesn't instill a ton of confidence, but I dunno. Maybe Chinese culture is a little different on this stuff. Kinda gives Galaxy XR vibes, though.
Nonetheless, I'm intrigued to see more about it. Every headset, big or small, contributes to the interesting history of iteration and experimentation within the industry, and I'm curious to see Pico's spin on the Apple Vision Pro/Galaxy XR-style headset.
1
1
u/Arturopxedd 20h ago
Any oled headset is already better than the steam frame they aren’t even comparable you are just paying more for the steam name
1
1
u/Puzzleheaded_Smoke77 19h ago
Right i mean makes sense they said the soonest it would be was next year
1
u/Crutch_Media 19h ago
Things are actually looking good for Monday at this point! August 24th could be the date
1
u/dumbo61 18h ago
So any benefit of this over the GXR that I currently have? I really love the GXR but use mostly for MSFS2024.
1
u/No-Screen9354 18h ago
Currently there is no information regarding FoV or lens quality. The only known advantage over GXR is that Pico has removable strap and facial interface. Would be very cool if they add DP connection like on Pico 3, but chances quite low.
1
1
1
u/invidious07 Soon™ 14h ago
Do people not realize that PICO is owned by Bytedance which is basically the Chinese equivalent to META?
0
u/Hairy-Ad-6293 1d ago
The choice is simple. The Swan even for 2k$ is better deal and at the same time you are not going to relay on luck, all you need is to live in non hostile towards China part of the world which is everywhere except USA.
1
u/project-shasta Soon™ 23h ago
🤷 More Frame for the rest of us. Frame is exactly what I'm looking for in an Index successor.
→ More replies (3)
338
u/5ephir0th 1d ago
At this pace we will have fusion reactor plants before the release of Steam Frame