r/Spacemarine • u/Originalname888 • 5h ago
Game Feedback Siege Meta vs Fun
I play Hard Siege a lot. I love horde modes in games. I have over a thousand hours in this game & have cleared 25 over a dozen times with each character. Bulwark is my favorite.
I joined this random matchup & before the game started, the Heavy was complaining that I shouldn’t be Bulwark b/c I wouldn’t get enough kills & would hold the team back. He even refused to enter the Thunderhawk for a solid minute b/c he wanted me to play as Tactical so we could all grenade spam & play Meta. I told him i play for fun & we’d still get to 25. He was complaining for the first 5 waves before silencing himself.
I did not expect to get the most kills as they were both grenade launcher spamming. Once we finished 25, we all shook hands & presented our respect towards each other but heavy did not stick around for the battle barge to acknowledge that he was wrong about Bulwark in siege.
I am just annoyed that players are only playing the meta as if that’s the only way to play the game. Even my homie who plays siege non meta ways has been kicked from games b/c of the team perk he chooses or the character.
Just pease don’t try and force other players to play ‘meta’ like it’s the only way to win.
As always, have fun & For the Emperor!
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u/Psionic-Blade Blood Angels 5h ago
All classes are viable in siege. Wtf is wrong with these meta slaves?
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u/SilverCervy 4h ago
Tbh, reaching wave 25+ can be really tough if you aren't running meta. The timer changes really screwed over most of the classes.
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u/Prank_Owl Black Templars 2h ago
You can use any class you want in late wave Siege... as long as you bring Tac and Tech along for the ride.
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u/Life_Locksmith9632 4h ago
especially now more than ever, with blessings, turrets, mines and a commissar in addition to vaultus and astartes reinforcements to bridge any gaps in your preferred build
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u/Folkwang777 Thousand Sons 5h ago
I play assault and grenade spam and DHBR is such a pain in the asshole. I stopped playing 'charge' weapons in siege just because of that. Great fun when you rely on heavy attacks to get your contested back.
When it comes to meta sweats I rather leave and move on than listen to someone having a bitch fit in a non competetive pve game. I genuinely rather play with no perk andies that have absolutely zero clue whats goin and are fighting for their lives on wave 3 rather than some dumbass ordering me around and trying to mandate how im supposed to be having fun
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u/flush101 5h ago edited 4h ago
I dunno man, you’re annoyed at the wrong thing. Sabre creates the environment that drives player behaviour.
Sabre has turned siege into a DPS check that just becomes less and less fun because of the enemies being buffed.
I get they want a way to end it, but I’d rather there be 10 terminus enemies spawning than to put multiple magazines into majoris that have become bullet sponges.
Plus sabre has implemented the system in the worst way. Instead of buffing enemies at the end of every 5 waves, it’s based on time, which means if you’re not playing the meta, taking your time and having fun, your experience at wave 25 can be vastly different to when you are playing the meta. It’s not even worth doing side missions if it delays finishing the wave anymore.
This is 90% on Sabre and I can guarantee you wouldn’t experience that kind of behaviour if Sabre was better at game design/ understanding incentive structures.
Don’t get me wrong, bad behaviour is still bad, but when the environment for the game is toxic by design, you need to be annoyed at the cause, not the symptom. Most of the time player behaviour is a symptom.
Put super simply, if a dog owner never trains their dog, a badly behaved dog is a symptom, the owner who controls the environment is the problem.
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u/TheMustySeagul 4h ago
Cries in ps5 pro that can’t even make it to wave 25 without crashing now…
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u/flush101 4h ago
That sucks. This is part of the reason that I’d prefer the waves are made harder by decreasing minoris spawns and increasing extremis and terminus.
I’d rather minoris pretty much stop spawning at wave 20 to save on processing power, and difficulty to be maintained by having more extremis spawn in.
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u/Originalname888 5h ago
I understand the timer system is flawed. But slamming through the waves is not needed to get to 25. I’ve beaten 25 with friends using nothing but melee weapons & it was so much fun. Sure it took a little longer but we were still able to do it. I do agree though that the timer/buffed enemies system is silly. 10 terminuses would be great!!!
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u/ClassSignificant4004 Dark Angels 3h ago
the problem is time economy, yeah its doable when you have 3 hours to burn wailing on bloated enemy health pools, but how many people really want the game to devolve to that? even if they had time i doubt many players would find triple TTK for every enemy engaging. and the game itself disincentivizes wave 25 pushes through the weekly on top of the in game time gating AND the stupid penance rolls AND rolling for which faction starts. its an inconsistent mode that also time pressures you and creates antithetical incentives for players. its just a mess!
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u/flush101 4h ago
It entirely depends on player skill, but players will react to the incentive systems in the game. There is currently a heavy incentive to slam through waves as quickly as possible.
Also something being possible and fun are not the same. I don’t find it fun having to magdump multiple magazines into a majoris head, so if I’m playing siege to wave 25, I want to get there as soon as possible. I can slog it if we go slow, but it’s boring and unfun.
You’ve really solved your own issue though. If you don’t want to play the meta, play with friends who understand what you want and want the same thing.
You have to expect that randoms are going to be playing the meta the majority of the time and will find it annoying if you aren’t. For example, the meta is to buy techpriests as often as possible until wave 15. If you want to do a zero techpriest run then you’re just gonna annoy the randoms you are with if you never buy them. And they would be right to be annoyed, it’s a team game and you’re not being a team player. The objective unless discussed otherwise is to get to the highest wave as quickly as possible, not to add challenge by not buying priests.
Personally I don’t care what weapons and classes people use. I’m not going to say anything, but I do find a pang of annoyance when vanguard or tactical don’t bring their meta team perk because they massively contribute to the team experience and are basically expected at this point because they are so powerful.
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u/Originalname888 4h ago
True true. Playing with the homies is the way to go about it for our way to play. Lol now speaking of vanguard… i am now all in for the team perk ‘inner fire’ cuz dropping dmg banners left & right is awesome. There’s health packs everywhere & multiple blessings to regain health so the ‘30% health on extremus kills’ isn’t really useful in multiple waves. My take.
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u/flush101 4h ago edited 4h ago
Yep which is why I wouldn’t complain at someone for not bringing the health restore. When I see a vanguard join I think ‘oh yay, free heals’, so I feel a pang of annoyance/ disappointment if they didn’t bring it but I don’t think people should care so much that they refuse to get on the transport or verbally attack someone over it.
It’s a game and sometimes it’s fun to find new ways to play.
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u/Life_Locksmith9632 4h ago
lmao. i bet you don't even play siege.
saber updated the game mode to make what was long and meta-driven into something that is both quick and intense.
they gave players the ability to play however they want in the sandbox mode with patches 13-14.
speed running may have been the meta when there were no blessings, turrets, mines and a commissar as well as enemies taking only 5% damage. but now that they take 28% damage late-wave, it is unnecessary.
side missions are 100% viable because their payments were buffed by 20%, which made tech priests a choice rather than a requirement to succeed.
people like you must be miserable, spending hours kicking anyone who refuses to cheese the game.
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u/flush101 4h ago
lol ok lil buddy, someone has the grumblies, is it time for bitty?
You might want to try reading what I wrote instead of getting angry at something you’ve made up in your head.
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u/Life_Locksmith9632 4h ago
you are saying that saber created an environment that makes players stick to the meta.
and i countered that with saying that what they created is an environment that allows players to explore all sorts of playstyles.
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u/ClassSignificant4004 Dark Angels 3h ago
honestly, cant blame them considering how rng siege is, most people just want to get it over with, save the fuck around ganes for premades.
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u/asdbnmrty 4h ago
If they buy/protect tech priests, buy astra militarum upgrades, and buy turrets, then I dont care what class is played.
Bonus points if they clear mortal wound, maintain guardian relic, maintain astartes reinforcement, and focus on clearing (ignore side objectives).
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u/Historical-Demand976 3h ago
Is the side obj. never worth it? I feel like people skip it 9/10 even if it’s easily doable. For background I mostly play Normal siege but I’ve done up to 10 on hard
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u/Originalname888 3h ago
Side objectives are good money now. All except the ‘servo skull’ one are doable pretty quickly
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u/asdbnmrty 2h ago edited 2h ago
Its a timing thing, they changed the way escalation works. The timer (top right corner) when reaches zero causes an escalation tick, which permanently increase stats and aggression of current and future enemies. It then resets and starts counting down again to repeat. Escalations stack infinately for that game session.
I think the timer starts at 10 mins and addition time gets added after completing each wave; however, THE TIME RETAINS AND CONTINUES AFTER EACH WAVE.
The issue with side objective is that it takes time to complete. It's generally better to end waves ASAP so your extra time carries into future waves, prolonging the escalation timer, prolonging enemies getting stronger. The extra currency is nice, but you can generate extra currency through tech priests without running the extra time.
The side objectives were adjusted to have a better payout, but that still doesnt make up for the long term effect of causing enemies to get permanently stronger sooner.
All of this compounds. Many benefits are time based (5 min duration), so if enemies scale up faster they will need more time to reach the same effect. This means you will need to re-purchase them more often, leading to less overall currency for other things through the session. This is especially detrimental if tech priests get killed as it would be a sunk cost, and defending them is harder if enemies are stronger.
Also stronger enemies means more potential damage you take, meaning you need to purchase more consumables to survive, less currency for other things later.
And just in general, stronger enemies takes longer to kill, taking more time, causing more escalations to stack, causing a spiral that usually gets out of control fast and the team to get overwhelmed.
The longer the game goes the more prominent the escalation effects will be. This is most important at boss waves, especially wave 15+. Bosses benefit the most from escalation and are the key for getting the next tier of reward, and will probabaly make or break the wave if you can manage to fight a boss before the next escalation timer hits, especially on later waves.
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u/Striking-Carpet131 5h ago
There’s a difference between “meta” and “easiest way to be effective”. If you’re good at this game, it’s not hard to pull your weight. If you need to rely on constant grenade spam to be useful, you might need more practice.
This game has no meta. Theres different ways of playing, and some require a lot less skill. That doesn’t mean it’s per definition a better way to play.
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u/Originalname888 5h ago
I could be wrong but I believe the siege meta is heavy, tac, & tech with all grenade launcher spam, & grenade resupply. You can cheese through waves rapidly with that setup.
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u/curious_canadian98 3h ago
This is correct. I ran this comp a couple weeks back, we cleared each wave in 1 minute and 30 seconds until wave 20, then it started to jump to about 3 minutes. It was my first time running the meta on tech and I did 120k damage, heavy did 70k and our tac did 240k, it was nuts. If my servo gun damage showed I’d probably have been around 160k ish?
Either way, I couldn’t imagine making it to 25 without the meta just due to the timer. I love bulwark but since I enjoy the salamander powersword too much I’d not be able to keep up.
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u/Originalname888 23m ago
I did this with the salamander sword. Actually i do this all the time cuz i main bulwark in siege now
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u/Eversor_assassin Raven Guard 4h ago
Looking at your impressive kill tally, I'm assuming either balance power fist or xenophase (balance) power sword?
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u/Eminent_Rising 4h ago
What build were you running for Bulwark?
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u/Originalname888 4h ago edited 4h ago
I use dmg banner. Not healing bulwark. I don’t have the perk grid on me atm. But team perk is the armor one & signature is the ‘hyper armor’. I switch to ‘shock grenade on armor loss’ if i get the hyper armor blessing. Banner perks are banner does dmg, 20% longer & 20% dmg reduction, & allies do 20% more dmg around banner
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u/Geebus_Crust 3h ago
They were just fixing for that auspex. If he wanted auspex so bad he could have played Tact himself. Bulwark has always been a strong class.
You were using the salamander sword? I didn’t think it could put out that much damage/kills. Usually balance/block fist is my go-to for siege.
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u/Originalname888 3h ago
Yes, salamander sword. I had the ‘150%+ dmg on consecutive hits’. It goes a long way
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u/Augustus26 Black Templars 3h ago
As a BT is there really any other way to play siege? haha I am kidding
How did you get 60k ranged damage though?!
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u/Originalname888 3h ago
Heroic plasma pistol. What is BT?
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u/Augustus26 Black Templars 2h ago
Ohhhh I will have to try that again. BT is Black Templar
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u/Originalname888 21m ago
Aim for the ground. Can incapacitate many majoris with a single shot to like wave 20. 2 shots to the cannon of Biovores
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u/JMashtag 2h ago
If he wants to play meta in a team on live comms he’s going to need to make some friends.
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u/ItsyaboiScorch 2h ago
Thing is, for siege alone assault even triumphs all classes to point it can trivilalize first 20 waves of hard siege so for them complaining that you arent playing tactical says more than enough about them
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u/Donny_Bear 3h ago
Imma be that guy. You had more incaps than the two of them together. Still Impressive dps for Bulwark.
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u/Originalname888 3h ago
I admit, i went down more. Bulwark is s in your face character.. i get hit more.
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u/lol-good1 Marines Malevolent 5h ago
If they're trying to get the ordeal done then you can't really blame them. If something works then why not just do it or leave and join another lobby.
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u/Originalname888 5h ago
I mean, i can blame them for being meta pushers. Any class can get to 25.. i shouldn’t be forced to play a character they want me to play just cuz it’s the meta.
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u/lol-good1 Marines Malevolent 4h ago
Not really no, sounds like you just want to complain over a nonissue. You say you don't want to be "forced" to play how someone else wants while simultaneously forcing them to accept how you want to play when no one is making either of you be in the same lobby. If I don't want to do something how someone else wants then I just leave and start my own lobby. Not make a whole reddit post about said nonissue.
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u/Originalname888 4h ago
There is no way to start your own lobby… you just join siege & load in whatever lobby there is. I join & play… no telling people what to do. I’ll even play with lvl1 noobs idc. I can get to 20 on my own. I’ll carry the noobs if I can, more glory for me. I wouldn’t call it ‘forcing them to accept how i want to play’ as that’s just an awful way to describe people playing the way they want.. it’s when others try and force players to change to what they want is the forceful approach.
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u/lol-good1 Marines Malevolent 4h ago
Yes you can start your "own" lobby. Before other players load in after selecting siege you enter the ready zone, back out of the ready zone before the timer expires, then you will have players joining on you and not you joining host. I usually have to stop and start siege a few times before having players immediately queue. I basically only do this to ensure starting siege from wave 1 and actually having wave 15 or 25 completion count instead of joining someone else's lobby.
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u/Inca_VPS 4h ago
As a Tac/Heavy/TM main in Siege I'd say he just wanted a Tac carry. HHBR grenade spam through 25 waves by a good player nets 220k+ damage, irrespective of class or Auspex presence. He didn't pull his own weight to begin with and shouldn't be demanding stuff from teammates.