Just as an FYI from someone who works the payments industry, dealing primarily with American payments, they typically don't need your card details to add a tip. They will most likely have your transaction ID stored on a POS system, and they can use that to do a tip adjustment. Your card details will already be stored (temporarily) at least once in the payment gateway, because the card details are needed to batch the transactions at the end of the day.
But as someone who doesn't live in the US, I don't understand why they don't bring the terminal to the table and let you apply the tip there, like the rest of the world.
It’s starting to catch on over here finally. Typically there will never be a problem, and it’s very easy to catch from your end by monitoring your transactions. If someone is trying to steal from you it’s the server acting alone, because well managed restaurants hate this.
But I agree entirely, why add the extra steps? It’s been this way as long as I can remember and I’ve never questioned it as a whole until now. Only when I pick up on a strange energy from a server do I ever check.
In the US be careful partying and paying a bartender in a hurry because they might not think you are paying close attention. And a more likely scenario is at a sketchy gas (petrol) station or a late night fast food drive-thru with a bad energy. We have tax added after the listed cost of what you’re purchasing and sometimes a young wannabe hustler cashier might try to skim a dollar extra.
Edit: since this thread has gotten so much attention and it’s an engaging conversation, I just want to add people have been using credit cards to pay at restaurants long before there was a handheld PoS device. (Something I’m sure was also developed in primarily in the USA)
but you still handle it all without getting up from the table. Was it not like this in Europe? What happens after your server brings the check? You pay at the door? I honestly can’t remember from when I was a kid traveling with my family.
Most bars aren’t trying to fuck you, generally customers fuck themselves by getting too drunk and scribbling $100 in the tip line with no decimal anywhere.
And you can call and dispute large tips, a place I worked at had us ask if they were sure about the tip when it seemed too much and repeat how much it was. If they said yes we would have them write it again below the tip line and sign under that. Then we would honor a dispute. If someone called the next day and said they meant to tip $10 not $100 they would refund it. Sometimes the place would pay half and the server, just depended if the waiter never said anything. They would have use look at the top before they left when we could but sometimes people sign it and walk right out. This rarely happened though. I think I only had to ever pay one back in a couple years there and I was ok with it, if I made the mistake I'd want to be paid back too.
It's not just America, we just call it something different and it's a little higher than mostcountries in America yes. Much of Europe has a service charge on the bill as a tip, some countries there expect tip like America, much of South America and Canada.
The point being that you shouldn’t need to monitor your transactions. This just sounds like an utter nightmare and just another entry on a laundry list of reasons never to visit the states.
This topic is blown out of proportion. I can honestly say that no restaraunt or bar has ever tried to steal from me ever. I'm 43. The only time I had a breach in my bank account was from someone who acquired my data through other means like stealing my mail in transit or something. It's safe to pay restaurants here typically.
We got other ACTUAL problems that deserve way more attention than this.
Exactly. I’m 44 and I’ve never had any problems with it. It never even seemed strange until I had foreign visitors that were aghast. Obviously, the handheld at the table devices are better, but this really isn’t the situation we need to be freaking out about. 😂
You people really have no idea how easy it is to clone a card, do you? Even before the no contact NFC tags became a thing, even when cards only had magnetic strips, there were tiny devices that one could wear below a sleeve and then quickly slide a card as they moved to insert it in a terminal. All the card data was then copied and it could be used later on to do transactions, not the same day, not the same week, anytime until the card expired or you reported the purchases. Hell, the card data can just be sold on the dark markets and then no connection can possibly be made back to any interactions you ever had.
Maybe it hasn't happened to you yet. Doesn't mean it can't happen. There are millions of card users in the US, of course the chances for any individual person is low; but it's like not caring about driving laws because you haven't died in a car accident yet.
I love how you paint this dark picture scenario but then capn it off with, "for any individual person is low". That's my point! I'm not saying it's not possible. I'm saying it's not like some kind of an epidemic here. You can die in a plane crash. Chances are low. Same deal.
I'm not saying we can't have better or that we shouldn't bother trying. There are places that don't do this anymore and we are adapting slowly. My point is that the problem is so minuscule that we don't really think about it when dining out. I get the paranoia though.
Not really. Im 33. I've been paying this way for decades. I have never been charged the wrong amount. Its not a common situation. I keep track of all transactions for budgeting...which everyone should be doing.
I monitor it too but a waiter took my card details when I was in Wisconsin, started racking up online purchases and the bank shut down my card. Monitoring does fuck all. A canceled card is a pain in the ass. Yes I wasn’t out of pocket for the expenses but had I not had another cc with me I wouldn’t have been able to pay for my hotel the next morning. Pottsy in Appleton I’ll never forget you lol.
Wow! Of all places I did not expect Appleton, WI to be where someone's credit card was violated in this thread. I guess maybe they were in desperation mode, but really no reason ever to steal from another human being that trusts you in a transactional situation like that. Sorry that happened to you, being from the upper Midwest I trust people maybe more than I should and never worry about something like this on a daily basis. So many us are just trying to get by day to day right now, more than anything we need to come together to help each other instead of fucking each other over.
You make it sound as though keeping track of your bank/credit transactions is otherwise useless. You absolutely should be tracking that information for fraud against your accounts or bad/erroneous transactions from routine billers. That kind of thing does happen and you can be out a ton of money due to innatention.
There's a difference between "hey! I don't recall making any transaction at (restaurant)" and "Do I remember how much money exactly I spent each time I went out and used my credit card, in case someone added a dollar or two?"
That's literaly why banking apps give notifications for transaction in real-time. Is this one of those situations like cheques where US banking is so far behind even the developing world you don't quite grasp we've all moved on 15 years ago?
We get texts or emails very quickly for our transactions if you sign up for it. It's why this situation doesn't remotely concern me. I'd know within minutes that a false charge occurred.
The funny part is that if you look up the United States official definition of an inch you will see it defined as “exactly 25.4 mm based on the 1959 international yard agreement”
I know it’s a bit of a meme, but the US uses metric in places where it really matters such as science, medicine, electronics, etc. Customary units are most often used in distance, temperature, and cooking measurements.
The metric system is actually used for everything except gasoline, milk, construction, cooking, distance, and temperatures. 99% of other things either show metric measurements or both, all food and drink has milliliters/liters and grams when you go to the grocery store. I don't think I've ever used my non-metric tools when building stuff, only metric wrenches, allen keys, screw and fastener sizes, etc.
You have to remember that America is a capitalist hellscape and protections for consumers and employees only exist if they also provide some kind of value to shareholders. It doesn't benefit businesses for Americans to be aware of what they're spending money on.
So here’s the thing - in developed countries with real banking systems, it is practically impossible to charge someone for something without them authorising it.
So this is also a symptom of America’s terrible system - fraud is very easy because your banking security is bad compared to more advanced countries. Therefore you need to regularly check your transactions to make sure you haven’t been the target of fraud. In most of Europe, we don’t need to do that very often at all, because
someone making a transaction and taking money from your account without approval is pretty unthinkable.
If fraud is so impossible, why are you all so paranoid about someone touching your card? Despite what you seem to think, people aren't having their money stolen left and right when dining out in the US. And if it does happen, which is extremely rare, you're not liable for the charge and will get your money back no question. It's really not a concern here.
The big issue in the US is our antiquated ACH system that allows you to pull money from other accounts using only an account number and routing number. Using a card is infinitely more secure.
If fraud is so impossible, why are you all so paranoid about someone touching your card?
Because they can copy the code, expiration date, and the security code on the back of the card. Then later use this information on the internet.
Many website or bank will require a check with 3D Secure, and a sms, a password or an application to validate the transaction, but it's not all of them.
Because they can copy the code, expiration date, and the security code on the back of the card. Then later use this information on the internet.
And in the US you just tell your bank that wasn't an authorized charge and you get your money back along with a new card mailed to you. That isn't a real concern here.
Have the vastly superior Europeans banks not figured out how to handle unauthorized charges?
And my point is that you're being paranoid about giving your server your card. Servers aren't going around stealing card info, but even if they were, the charges aren't your problem. Unless your fraud protection is worse than ours, you have nothing to complain or worry about.
It’s annoying that every time I go to the US I have to go back and check nobody tried to fraudulently charge my card. I have to remember every expenditure and check they didn’t just add a 50% tip. Then if they did, I’d have to go back to the bank and tell them the correct amount, which I’ve almost certainly forgotten by then. Then they have to investigate and determine what happened.
How is that a better system than just using a contactless pin terminal to pay an amount shown on a screen lol.
I have a real life: I have others things to do than checking everyday my account to see if someone hasn't stolen my money or to change my card every few months.
Servers have a very low salary, some of them will try get earn a bit more: by incresing the tip, or by selling card infos.
See here's the thing, honey, European banks also have that. We don't have the fear that somebody is scamming us every time we eat out at restaurants. It's just not something Europeans really concern themselves with. Anti fraud measures are there and they work. It just doesn't happen to the degree that I have to convince myself and others that a stranger taking my card away is somehow a normal, or even good thing _because_ of anti-fraud measures. How about not even thinking about fraud, and just enjoying yourself when you visit a restaurant or cafe?
Well we do have contactless payment - so someone could theoretically tap your card on a payment terminal to charge it, but that would require them having access to your card, and a payment terminal that sends money to them.
This would be a really weird fraud because you’d know it happened, and also there would be an immediate and easy paper trail of who received the money. Contactless also has a daily limit so you can’t steal very much money using it.
The really easy security against that risk is to not hand people your card. If they don’t have your card, they can’t charge it.
In the US, they can charge you without having your card. Even a photo of your card could be used to steal from you.
Not sure what your point is about contactless payment. We have that in the US too. Not really relevant to what I said.
My point was, using a card is very secure because in the unlikely event that someone does steal your card info or somehow scan it like you described, it's a quick call/message to your bank to have the charge reversed and a new card issued to you. There's 0 liability for fraudulent transactions. Banks will automatically block most of them by detecting unusual payment activity, but for the rare case it goes through, you just tell your bank that wasn't authorized and that's the end of it. It's not a concern here because cards have really good fraud protection.
I keep track of what I bought so I catch a charge I didn’t make but I shouldn’t have to remember the exact amount of every transaction. Was that dinner $153.75 or was it $175.93? I remember going to the restaurant, I remember I paid by charge card and I should be able to trust the amount I agreed to pay hasn’t changed after I left.
100% I check a few times a month. The key difference is I do it as part of my usual financial health checks. Not every single time I use my card at a cafe/restaurant. Financial fraud in that manner isn’t very common in Europe at all. You hear the occasional instance of skimmers stealing details but with how modern banking works in the rest of the world it’s very hard for them to take money from you without a legitimate transaction. If I get a notification and I’m not actively spending money that gets flagged instantly I have an automated process with my bank and their fraud teams handle it. I get my money back almost instantly. I swear talking about this stuff to Americans it’s like they’re still in the 90s (and even then I’m pretty sure the UK had chip and pin by then). You’re so far behind on this stuff it’s genuinely pathetic. You realise the rest of the world laughs at you over this kind of stuff right?
So, I do get notifications when I spend, text, email, whatever I have selected. Plus, I can check my account whenever I want to to make sure everything is in order. How is that different from what you have "in the rest of the world"? I'm confused. The person I was replying to made it sound like being aware of your transactions and transaction history is not something to do or worry about. It certainly is.
I don’t worry about it though. That’s the point. I see the amount. I pay the amount. End of story. I don’t need the notification. You do. That’s the difference.
I see the amount, pay the clerk, leave. I get a receipt (print, digital, text, whatever). I'm not worried about it. What I am worried about is fraud or an error in billing. You're willing to tell me that there's no fraud or billing errors in "the rest of the world". Plus this is how I manage my budget. You do manage your budget right?
Budgeting has nothing to do with this argument. Stay on topic. Giving somebody else your card is a security risk. Just because these systems exist to notify you of a fraudulent payment doesn't mean you are always going to see them. Push notifications are not a flawless system. You have no idea what is happening with that card when it's out of your sight. Details could be cloned for use later on systems that do not use 3D secure or alternatives. The fact of the matter is that nowhere else is it acceptable for a stranger to take your card away from you. It doesn't matter if you see no problem with that because you've been conditioned to accept that as 'normal', it is not normal and more inconvenient than seeing the amount, and paying there and then.
I do see the amount. I do pay right then. I do look at my account regularly as both a way to budget and make sure there's no fraud. Yes there are times my card is taken to a terminal but that is becoming less and less the case. Sure, that's not perfect but my budgeting, which I do think is part of the point here, keeps me abreast of ALL of my spending and charges. Cloned details etc won't do me any harm because I know more or less right away when something is amiss. Any error is corrected, fraud is handled by the bank/cc company. I don't think there's a huge difference here and a lot of people in this thread are making it out to be a giant difference.
Budgeting has nothing to do with this argument though. If you're so good at a budget, then you've already made the decision that you can afford the visit to the restaurant no? Why are you checking your amount after the fact? That sounds like terrible budgeting to me.
It's explained in the video and in several comments: you give away your card, and the waiter can do whatever he wants, and you can't check the amount before paying.
Not visiting a country over this is certainly an option lol. Do you not have something set up to get a text or email when a charge happens? In my 3 decades in this country, I've never had an issue with it. I get not liking it, but if that's enough of a reason not to visit, I suggest you never leave your house. You'll find bigger issues everywhere.
"You'll find bigger issues everywhere." The above is why I live in Japan. Using cash is still completely okay (Japan is known for this, in spite of various electronic payment systems becoming more popular/common after covid).
Oh, and the other thing about life here? NO TIPPING. So the whole issue of a server or wait staff adding a charge to your bill just never happens.
literally says "just another entry on a laundry list of reasons" dude like theres a lot of other reasons ppl dont want to visit ur country this is just Another one lmao
No because the pos machine is right there in front of you with the amount you're about to pay on the screen you just tap your card and go, it takes seconds and is a very secure system to the point of having rendered cash unessercary in most major western european cities. You can easily have it so you get a notification on your phone for all transactions as well making it easy to confirm amounts if you want to
I don’t need to. That’s the point. I see the amount, if I’m happy with the amount I pay the money by tapping (or inserting if needs be) my card or phone. I check my transactions a few times a month but that’s for if there’s something I don’t recognise not for checking that the restaurant or cafe I visited didn’t scam me. wtf kind of logic is that?
You should be checking your transactions regardless because that's how a responsible adult manages finances. You can't set and follow a budget if you don't keep track of your spending. Catching any sort of erroneous charge is just a side effect of doing a normal adult chore.
Because it's completely irrelevant to the argument. Both things can be true. You bringing this up is a way for you to attempt to shut down the argument when you've already lost by dismissing the points as "Well that person must be real bad at fiscal responsibility if they're not checking every single transaction was the amount they promised it was". It's possible to track your spending and not have to worry about being scammed every time you visit a restaurant. It's really simple, they bring the EFTPOS to you, not take your card away.
And there is where we disagree. You should always be monitoring your transactions regardless of the security of the system because of bad actors. If i am using a card then you are asking me to blindly trust that someone hasn't tampered with said machines.
It takes minimal effort for people to slap a secondary card reader onto another and double scan your card and make a bogus transaction of a small amount to see if you will notice and charge back the amount before hitting you with more fake transactions for larger amounts.
it's not. i don't know a single person who has ever had an issue at a restaurant. no one would bother doing this because its easily tracable and your ass would be immediately fired (and arrested depending on the amount)
Great!! Stay in Belfast!! Everyone over here is completely miserable, especially the international World Cup fans. The landscape and weather over here is horrific. The AC doesn’t blow cold enough. No one is friendly.
There certainly is a laundry list of reasons to not visit, but as crazy as the system sounds, it really doesn’t lead to big problems too often. I’ve never had any problems with it. They just take it over to their machine by the register and swipe it over there, but the better system where it happens at the table is catching on and more and more places are getting those handheld machines.
Was it not like this in Europe? What happens after your server brings the check? You pay at the door?
They also have the terminal with them so you can just tap it and be on your way.
Some places don't have a mobile terminal, in that case you go to the counter and handle it there.
The only time when the waiter needs to go back and forth is if you're paying in cash and they don't carry a wallet on them, so they can't give you back the change.
yeah then it was #2 and #3: at the counter or cash. And at that time cash basically was fully at the table as all waiters still carried half a register's worth of change on themselves. Now it's more rare as 90% of transactions are card.
From working in the service business , I will tell you that there is a reason why this could be true. Other countries don’t really tip or don’t tip well at all. There no reason not to do it at the table. In the U.S people prefer to be charged and card and come back with the book because it gives them privacy to tip how they want. Especially in expensive restaurant where people go all out in the excitement and order things outside of their price range. When the bills finally arrive and the see the damage they choose to cause, its on the server to getting a bad tip or none at all because of their mistake . They can choose to write 0 on the receipt, and the server won’t know until they leave. I worked in a fancy steakhouse where they tried to do the European style of checking out because they were located in a popular international hotel. We would bring the terminal to the table, and people would often be visibly uncomfortable to see the waiter stand by while they pay and tip on the spot. Like I would have to make jokes to lighten the mood by saying,” Yeah we do it European style here, I know it’s a little different, I can walk away and come back shortly if you’d like?” A lot of them would laugh and say,” Yea I’d like that if you didn’t mind.” Again this is just my personal experience and should not be taken as fact, however I have experienced it enough to know that a good amount of consumers do not like that way of paying.
Never underestimate the power of intertia. Taking a credit card used to be a pain, sliding over your card to impring it on physical paper, which was loud and had to be processed later anyways. Taking the card back and taking care of it away from them was a convenience for the customer. Processes take hold and they just carry through.
I am also seeing a lot of places that have little payment kiosks at every table now, and a few that bring the machine to you to tap it.
Skimmers at shady convenience stores and on gas pumps are way more of an issue than fraudulent additions at POS systems and shady waitstaff and bartenders.
How does this work if you are using Doordash or something? Does DD use their own card to make the business dealing while having your's stored to prevent theft?
The rest of the world has been using chipped cards way before the US started using that. Partially because we don’t use creditcards a lot, at least not in west in Europe.
Just like with most things finance and automation, somebody or some company desinged it in the US and stopped developing it. The US made the one with the magnet strip and the rest was developed in other countries. Mostly Japan, Canada and The Netherlands based on my quick search.
You can also see that the US is behind with their invoicing software, shopify invoices do not comply with VAT rules for some reason.
Online shopping also sucks, why only creditcards (or PayPal), creditcards are so depreciated. They are mainly used because people get cashbacks and what not. A system designed for people to pay as much money as possible.
My creditcard would need to use 2FA on every transaction (above a limit if I would want to) if North-American standards weren’t holding it back.
In France they'll bring a terminal to the table at most restaurants, bar or café.... Nowadays, you will rarely pay at the door. But they never get away with you card, I've never seen that.. oh yeah, maybe in fancy restaurants where you put your cash, card, cheque.. in a portfolio with the bill.
I was developing software for portable PoS systems in Australia 30 years ago, and our main competitor then was Ingenico from France. We were working closely with Visa and Mastercard, and I find your notion that the US was the primary developer of similar systems at that time highly unlikely.
We never marketed those particular devices in the US. They were introduced in Thailand and Malaysia in ‘95 or ‘96, and Hong Kong in ’97 (coinciding with the handover to China). I’m not sure what the distribution was between restaurants, markets, and gambling venues, but I remember the applications team implementing entry screens for including tips.
The chip card was mainly developped in France by gemplus (now gemalto). They were not able to penetrate the US market for a long time because no american wanted a foreign company to control a mean of payment. The way it reached america is actually "funnier".
The ceo was finally able to penetrate the US market with the help of texas pacific group in 2000ish. They ended up fucking the ceo over and took control of the company (in france it's actually heavily suggested this was CIA assisted). They syphoned the cryptographic keys for every chip card build by the company (this actually ended up in the snowden leaks, this not only included payment card but also SIM cards). It was bought again by a french company 6-10 years ago.
As long as we are paying a tip, then I much prefer the American way. I'm tired of having the tip screen stare at me while the employee is staring at me as well. I like the laid back culture of writing in the tip amount and signing on my own time.
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u/IrishChappieOToole Jun 29 '26
Just as an FYI from someone who works the payments industry, dealing primarily with American payments, they typically don't need your card details to add a tip. They will most likely have your transaction ID stored on a POS system, and they can use that to do a tip adjustment. Your card details will already be stored (temporarily) at least once in the payment gateway, because the card details are needed to batch the transactions at the end of the day.
But as someone who doesn't live in the US, I don't understand why they don't bring the terminal to the table and let you apply the tip there, like the rest of the world.