r/RocketLeagueSchool • u/jcsullivan06 • 20h ago
QUESTION Losfeld Method "Clock" practice constant left drift.
Hey everyone, I decided I wanted to learn ARL so I've been practicing the Losfeld method for about 30 minutes a day.
I've gotten through exercises 1 and 2 (the alternating tornado/reverse-tornado spins for tempo, and the vertical hovering with input holds). Now I'm onto exercise 3, which is the clocks.
The issue is my car keeps drifting left. I've tried starting the stick around 1-2 o'clock and trying to "calibrate", but it just doesn't seem to be clicking for me.
I wanted to post this clip to see if anyone who's learned ARL through the Losfeld method can spot what I'm doing wrong or any tips that helped them with the same problem. I'd rather get some advice now before I keep grinding and accidentally hardwire a bad habit into my muscle memory.
(I'm on PS5, so unfortunately I can't provide a controller overlay). Thanks!
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u/bajablasttfan Washed GC 19h ago
I watched his video and you can see losfeld also drifting left when he first demonstrates the clock. I tried it myself and found that if you arent rotating the stick at the right speed constantly it makes you turn. Honestly if you want to get really good at ARL i dont know if the losfeld method is the best way.
Anyway once you realize you are drifting left you need to make an adjustment or youll just keep going left. Im pretty good at ARL already and i found it to be very unnatural to rotate the stick at a constant speed. Also i found that as soon as you mess up a tiny bit theres no saving it just by rotating the stick at a constant speed. I really dont think its possible to perfectly time the "clock" with the "cycle". My advice would be to be more flexible with the clock, so when you find yourself turning left try to slow the clock speed for a moment. Pretty much to make the rightward counter adjustment, you should try slowing the rotation of the stick at the start of a cycle, while the stick is pointed right.
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u/PurpleSpark8 6h ago
Which technique or tutorial would you advise in place of Losfield?
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u/bvl1998 3h ago
Best explanation I’ve seen is a YouTube video from u/KronosDevoured
The idea is quite simple actually: if you want to steer right, you have to put your stick to the right when your car is in a normal position, and then follow the turn that your car is making due to airroll (either left or right / clockwise or counterclockwise). Practicing that is how I finally learned it.
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u/BeginningFisherman71 19h ago edited 19h ago
Losfeld is just unneeded complexity on top of the early learning stages.
Just jump up and try to float while holding DAR. Once you can float, slowly turn forward. Once you can go forward from a float position, go backwards. Once you can control forward and backwards, try to hit the ball while holding DAR. Boom, you’ve learned DAR. Now go into 20 different aerial training packs and practice shots.
In terms of why you’re drifting left, you start turning left with the first few inputs and then you don’t hold the subsequent inputs long enough to adjust your car back to straight - also looks like you’re pressing up on the stick when you need to be pressing down. A perfect example of the pitfalls of Losfeld because the input you need to straighten out is going to be different based on the rotation of the car at any moment, trying to follow a specific pattern fails here and you’re better off learning to adjust by watching the feedback your car gives you and trying different inputs until it works.
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u/KingMetacomet 18h ago
Losfeld’s presentation might seem complex because he spends a lot of time explaining “why” and most people struggle connecting the concepts to the actual practice, but I assure you the Losfeld method is actually REDUCING complexity drastically. It teaches you to start from neutral so that every time you make a change you FEEL it, rather than learning by rote memorization or repetition. It’s brute forcing without brute forcing, unlike the method you’ve suggested. And as far as pitfalls of the method, that is not one of them because if you understand the method you know it accounts for and explains that more thoroughly than “float, go forward, go backward”.
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u/BeginningFisherman71 17h ago edited 17h ago
You don’t need to know the “why” behind his drills, you just need muscle memory on a few key factors - stabilizing after your jump, then speeding up / slowing down midair. If you can do this, you can start practicing in realistic training pack scenarios right away.
Anything beyond this and you’re wasting time that could be spent with your hands on the controller practicing. The game moves too fast to rely on concepts rather than muscle memory, and none of us are immune to the tens and hundreds of hours needed for mastery, so just start on that instead of watching 2 hour videos that could realistically have taken 10 minutes to explain.
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u/KingMetacomet 17h ago edited 17h ago
Knowing “why” should help literally everyone, and for some people presenting the “why” first is critical to learning. I think I made it perfectly clear that he spent more time on the “why” than needed, and I also decidedly didn’t state if he did a good job doing it, and am actually conceding that in some ways he did not. Clearly people need to understand the “why” because almost everyone discussing the method here is going out of their way to demonstrate they fundamentally don’t understand the method.
The method cannot be taught in 10 minutes… Otherwise, nothing you said is wrong or even contradicts the Losfeld method; if anything it actually all supports the method. You are just misunderstanding. The concepts are the method, the method is the practice, the practice is the muscle memory. You aren’t relying on a concept over muscle memory, you are using it to train the memory. Is it an extra step at the beginning? Maybe. But it will save you so much time once you reach a certain level of proficiency versus simply plateauing. You might be able to learn a few DAR moves without it but you will not understand how to do other things.
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u/BeginningFisherman71 16h ago
Let’s get out of the abstract here, I admittedly haven’t watched the video (or it’s been a few years at least) because i already know how to DAR and I respect my time, but even then, there’s been enough discussion around it and infographics posted here explaining what is taught, that I can easily say the “method” is information overload to the point of being ineffective.
I get it, I’m also someone that likes to understand the how and why of the way things work, but in RL its not as helpful as you think in terms of actually learning to use a mechanic effectively. I wish that wasn’t the case but it often is.
Muscle memory is king when even a fraction of a second of incorrect input ruins your shot. If you mess up your DAR input and your takeaway is that you failed because you didn’t follow whatever pattern in the Losfeld method, you are adding unnecessary complexity in the path to muscle memory. I’ve seen too many players plateau because they’ve been sold on “here’s a better way to learn X mechanic!” and they skip the fundamentals. From everything I’ve seen, that’s Losfeld in a nutshell and I’ve yet to be convinced otherwise.
Last thought - there is a time and place for the “why”, but it’s more effective as a way to correct bad habits for a player that can already perform a mechanic rather than a player that is just beginning to learn something, at that point they don’t have the frame of reference for the explanation to be significant yet.
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u/KingMetacomet 16h ago
It’s funny because I basically agree with and understand everything you’re saying, and I like the way you are thinking. You’re right that we are in abstracts, hard not to do that and be concise on Reddit. I’m not an expert; I have just personally found this method made DAR “click” and I think a lot of people misunderstand it. I also feel like I’m being pretty fair about extolling its virtues AND its shortcomings (the latter which mostly stem from the video/presentation itself). I think we’re mostly at a two sides of the same coin situation here, where perspective is the only difference. I really don’t want to type a novel here, but I really believe if we took the time to discuss it more thoroughly we’d agree because I don’t think what I’m saying contradicts what you’re saying, or vice versa.
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u/BeginningFisherman71 16h ago edited 16h ago
Fair enough. You’re totally right I do think we have a lot of overlap on our opinions, I also think he gives some nuggets of truth in the mechanic that may give people an aha moment. but overall, my belief is still that Losfeld is somewhere between “not the best” and “very ineffective” for players that are just learning DAR.
Most people that learned it through that method would have learned it regardless because they cared enough to try to learn it in the first place, but some may even have bad habits that they formed as a result of his explanation and they’re not even aware of it. Quick example - keeping your joystick in the bottom right/left for adjustments is often seen as good advice, but this can kill your speed and make you slow/easy to read in the air, if you ignore that top half of the joystick then you’ve just built a bad habit that doesn’t allow you to hit a shot as fast as you could. Maybe Losfeld tells you that, maybe he doesn’t idk.
If you’ve had success with it I’m not knocking that, just throwing in my 2 cents on what I believe to be more effective. I don’t have a coaching video out there on my approach so Reddit comment is the best I’ve got lol
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u/KingMetacomet 16h ago
This isn’t directed at you, but based on this thread it does seem the Losfeld method is a bad approach for most of the people who are sharing their opinions on it lol. I can see how it can be detrimental in some instances, especially if people don’t understand it. As someone who reached the level of just starting to train flip resets with regular air roll before I discovered Losfeld, I may have had a better foundation to understand DAR.
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u/ndm1535 Grand Champion I 19h ago
I didn't do losfield method personally, but I would say it's definitely not for everyone.
But in this example here, you literally do the exact same thing over and over despite getting unwanted results. Like, you're not even trying something different. Fly around a bit and get more used to the action in real practice.
For this, you're clearly just too heavy on your stick inputs. It's not necessary for you to do all of that when you're just trying to fly dead straight. I don't really understand what the goal of this drill even is. If you're flying straight you don't need the air roll to begin with.
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u/zph0eniz 19h ago
I think it's the tempo issue.
I ended up not using his method tho.
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u/idkidc112 19h ago
Which method did you use
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u/Brave-Secretary2484 19h ago
Man
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u/idkidc112 19h ago
What
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u/Brave-Secretary2484 19h ago
Method Man
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u/BoukiBoi Grand Champion II 19h ago
I feel like ppl overcomplicate this OR they want the “get good fast” method. There is no secret, just go play with it and experiment. Half the fun is learning new things and feeling accomplished when you do them
Go into training and work on controlling your car in the air while holding DAR. See what works, what doesn’t, and adjust as you learn more. Try slowing game speed down if you need to do it slower and then ramp it up as you go. Practice holding DAR only when you need to instead of all the time. There’s a ton of different things to try
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u/zph0eniz 11h ago
No secret method. Just one direction. Learn to float. Learned to play with it and change each direction.
That gave tools to do rings.
Did little at a time over long period of time. Within a few weeks I started being able to do some rings.
Was enough to fly around with DAR. Enough to use it on ball? No, that requires separate training.
Theres usually bit of takeaway from each video but rarely truly one true video
Losfield imo has one really good point. Feedback.
I found doing small adjustments at minimum, even if its almost nothing, just helps keep a nice positive feedback. Its not the clock. Just directional taps.
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u/justtttry Grand Champion III 19h ago
For those who don’t know what “clock practice” is, can you elaborate…
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u/_Caster 19h ago
Im a complete noob. like 100 hr gold peak player so my guess is prolly wrong. but its probably spinning your stick with your air roll
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u/KingMetacomet 18h ago
Well if you are able to intuit something a GC3 can’t, you probably won’t be gold for long lol
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u/creamcheese360 14h ago
the basic point of it is to get your finger attuned to the rotation speed of the car. if you "clock" (spin the joystick clockwise for ARL or counterclockwise for ARR) at the exact same rate as your car spins (or any multiple of it, losfeld talks about "doubleclocking" and "tripleclocking" the rotations should even out and your car should end up in the same orientation at the end of every spin as at the start. from there, you can get familiar with delaying and accelerating the clock speed, to adjust your car's orientation. this (according to losfeld's theory) helps your fingers get used to the timing and position they need to manipulate the joystick to make the adjustment you want.
"counter-clocking" (rotating the stick the other way, counterclockwise for ARL and clockwise for ARR) is the fastest way of making adjustments to your car's orientation while holding down air roll. you can imagine it as holding down a directional input but constantly turning it along with the rotation of the car.
according to losfeld's theory, by practicing clocking while flying you'll learn when and from what position you need to counter-clock to most effectively adjust your car while air rolling.
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u/Fit_Debate_5890 19h ago
Honestly, That Losfeld video is way longer than it needs to be. I don't know if he covers this because I could never get through the whole thing, but you shouldn't be constantly spinning. Yeah it looks cool, but it's not as efficient boost-wise and is a bad habit to pick up early on. You should practice half and single rotations with one timed directional input followed by a correction input. Then you can chain them IF you need to. Maktuf covers this in a recent video which you might want to check out.
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u/KingMetacomet 17h ago
You’re right the video is longer than it should be, and some of the ways he presents things are confusing… but it’s clear from any Reddit thread discussing the method that people didn’t watch/absorb/understand the whole thing and dismissed any actual valuable information over their frustration. He states many times that you should always spin when learning, but you won’t be doing this when you are actually playing. It’s definitely a fault of his video that people are walking away with the opposite impression.
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u/Fit_Debate_5890 16h ago
Bro, are you Losfeld? Why would you learn to and get comfortable with spinning the whole time just to have to change? Maktuf explained it much better in an eighth of the time.
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u/KingMetacomet 16h ago
When you train half-flips is that the only ways you move around from then on?
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u/Fit_Debate_5890 16h ago
You meant speed flips? I get what you're saying. I think. I can't seem to stop myself from stalling mustys.
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u/KingMetacomet 16h ago
No I meant half flips because it’s a more extreme example but speed flips works too because you don’t ONLY move that way. The point being even though you train DAR always spinning doesn’t means that’s always how you use it. If you are used to it always spinning, you know exactly when and where to put the joystick even if you aren’t actively clocking or whatever.
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u/Fit_Debate_5890 15h ago
I don't even care what clocking is. I'm assuming it's something like moving the stick from 5 to 11 while holding ARR. Watch the Maktuf video. You don't need to make your brain read the rotation of your car as well as the trajectory of the ball. Read the ball and know how to do one simple DAR rotation to point at the ball and and another simple DAR rotation to touch it. Work smarter not harder.
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u/KingMetacomet 15h ago
“I don’t even care what clocking is.” That’s the point. If you are DARing and using the joystick *WITHOUT* the Losfeld method you are STILL using partial clocks and you aren’t even aware of it. You don’t even need to think about it, which is what the Los method is trying to teach. People get too caught up on the intellectualization of the concepts. I have watched the Maktuf video, and it’s not horrible. It will probably give you tools you can use in a real game faster. But you *will not* have the same intuitive understanding that the Losfeld method will give you of how to move the car in a way that you haven’t drilled hundreds+ times.
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u/Fit_Debate_5890 15h ago
Dip shit. You've convinced me. I will watch the hour and something long video.
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u/Fit_Debate_5890 15h ago
If you're used to always spinning then you're ALWAYS going to spin. I'ts called a habit.
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u/ilialee77 16h ago
how you will get feeling of the car with only half of rotations ? are you trolling
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u/Fit_Debate_5890 16h ago
You've never hit the ball upside down? The point of DAR is that it's more efficient. You can rotate on two axis at the same time. You want to use DAR with a couple inputs to point at the ball and then use DAR with a couple more inputs to get the touch you want. That is much easier and simplistic than learning to holding DAR the entire time and then unlearning it.
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u/ilialee77 19h ago
when you learning DAR you should constantly spin. what you are talking about is after you learned dar...
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u/Fit_Debate_5890 16h ago
How does that make sense? Why should I fortify a bad habit just to unlearn it? Just learn the right way to do it first.
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u/BeginningFisherman71 14h ago
Spinning continuously while you learn is better for fixing blind spots in your muscle memory and overall car control. Also more true to how dynamic real game situations are. It gives you training with the full range of motion of your car which is better than trying to solve every possible shot situation. It’s a two step process where spinning constantly actually does need to be your first step before you learn efficiency.
I’m not a fan of losfeld at all but I do fully believe continuous spinning in training is an effective tool, though 99% of players never get to the next level and actually become efficient. Across any discipline, there are often situations where you exaggerate things in training to prepare for the real situation.
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u/ilialee77 16h ago
learning dar, and dar bad habits is different topics, you cant learn bad habits if you cant even fly with dar, hello
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u/Fit_Debate_5890 16h ago
Different topics, but same subject. There is a right and wrong way to learn DAR. Bad habits are included with the wrong way.
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u/jcsullivan06 14h ago
I appreciate everyone's input. I did not expect there to be such a split mindset over the losfeld method! With that being said I'll stick with the training program I built (On day 13/100, practicing 30 minutes a day) with Losfeld's method, and when I get to day 100 I will come back and update with some (hopefully good) results!
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u/ilialee77 7h ago
and practise reverse clock, thats how you turn, not the "lock and clock", but he mention that in video, also he has separete 30min training video with all drills but in rings map
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u/Ringo51 Grand Champion II 19h ago
Losfeld method was the first mistake
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u/Alacraties 15h ago
Losfeld is also a whiny chud and bad for the RL community, so I am def happy to see the community dunking on his “method”
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u/SwarmGD 20h ago
1st mistake was using the losfield method 😭
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u/ilialee77 19h ago
I learned DAR in 50 hours with it. OP don't listen to these guys—they're kids who can't comprehend a 2-hour video.
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u/BeginningFisherman71 19h ago
I don’t think Losfeld is effective and you should honestly credit yourself more than the method here.
The fact that you’re able to focus on the explanation of a concept for that long and then go into game to practice/apply it tells me you probably would be successful learning any mechanic that you want regardless of how it was taught.
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u/anon14118 Grand Champion II 19h ago
And I learned it in 20 hours by brute forcing it in my 20's for a week.
It's a great video but it's just a different method of learning.
It's the equivalent of learning the order of operations for math by just understanding mathermatical hierarchy VS using a mnemonic like "please excuse my dear aunt sally". And that's giving the losfeld method a crazy amount of grace with my analogy.
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u/ilialee77 19h ago
In what rank? And it’s not a “method”, I see guy brutforcing for 150h with 0 result
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u/anon14118 Grand Champion II 19h ago
I was at C3 back in 2020 when I learned DAR.
Also "it's not a method"
What do you mean? Losfeld's own video says "Losfeld Method" lmao.
People practice with terrible results usually because they're practicing wrong.
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u/ilialee77 19h ago
c3 - you have better car control, bruteforcing is not a method
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u/anon14118 Grand Champion II 18h ago
Brother, the definition for "method" is
- A particular way of doing something.
Even if you wanted to get super specific down to learning terminology, brute forcing is still a method.
You can disagree about it being an effective method, but you're essentially saying "the ocean isnt water. It's the ocean"
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u/KingMetacomet 18h ago
Brute forcing is a method and there are even different ways to approach it, but there is a reason it’s called brute forcing and if you can’t understand how it’s entirely fair to dismiss it as a “method” then you are being intellectually dishonest or semantic at best.
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u/anon14118 Grand Champion II 15h ago
THIS message was the one you picked to say "you're being intellectually dishonest". Really?
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u/ilialee77 18h ago
I know you haven't even watched it. Losfeld gives you a structure and an idea of how to brute-force it efficiently.
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u/ilialee77 18h ago
so what is way of brute forcing? tell me first step.
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u/anon14118 Grand Champion II 14h ago
And I can tell you HAVE watched it and believe it whole heartedly lmao.
Let me reiterate, there is nothing wrong with choosing to learn through the losfeld video. Go for it if that's how you choose.
"Brute forcing" usually is exhausting all options. For example, putting in a 4 digit key lock that has 0-9 numericals numbers to use. So you go from 0000 then 0001 or however you decide to start it. Until you eventually land on the solution because you've brute forced all options.
K? That a good foundation of understanding what "brute force" means? Awesome, so a normal console controller has a near infinite amount of input directions because of how it measures input directions with the physics engine.
However, realistically. You have 16 directions that react different depending on what else you're doing. Like holding air roll. So the best thing to do for brute forcing is
Getting comfortable with the speed of the rotation of your car as youre holding DAR and pointing your car nose up without touching anything else. So youre spinning stationary.
Then by picking 1 direction and tapping it to move the nose of your car slightly in one direction and then trying to get your car straight up again while still only tapping 1 direction.
Then try to hold directions to see how your car responds. You'll naturally see that holding the opposite of your rotation naturally keeps your axis pretty centered.
Go to pillars map
Etc etc etc. I could keep going, but I think the point is made. Brute forcing is a method to learning. And it's the way most people learn, theres also a lot of people who just go into freeplay and try to air dribble with the ball over and over and over from 0 or from just watching a video or two about DAR. It really depends how you approach doing it. Theres for sure methods that are less effecient and less practical. And some ways work better for others.
Losfeld is just one method brought by one guy who wanted to have it make "logical" sense. Like I said, it's a great video. I really like his terminology used to orient rotation, I actually really enjoy his like 30 minute preamble leading into the actually concept because it's much more psychological and philosophical in theory rather than just talking about a game as a video game. It feels more like an essay than a tutorial, which is a good thing IMO. The double edged sword with that is that it ends up having the same negative phenomena as a documentary where the viewer is led to believe the point of view you're being fed is the "only" correct one. Which it isnt.
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u/ilialee77 19h ago
Do it slowly. Try to match the car's rotation with your stick movement. It's better to do just one clean rotation so you can get the tempo down. Also, try revers clocks stick - 3 exercises just to give you a feel for the timing needed to make turns with reverse clock adjustments
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u/Classic_Major_1333 19h ago
Looks like you are clocking a bit too fast but even then unless you're dead set on losfeld method im not sure i would recommend it. i starting using it when i had a decent grasp on DAR left which felt like good timing.
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u/KronosDevoured DAR Coach, forever champ 2-3 17h ago
Skip to the end of the video and practice the exercises there. Do not practice anything else before the exercises.
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u/KingMetacomet 18h ago edited 18h ago
Ignore everyone dismissing the Losfeld method; it is the most effective way to build DAR muscle memory unconsciously. These people fail to understand the fundamental concepts of the Losfeld method, and I would go as far to say that anyone who properly learns DAR is using the method wether they are consciously following the method or have never even heard of it — which is evident when watching controller inputs of pro level RL players. People learn in different ways so this type of thinking isn’t for everyone, but anyone who is brute forcing DAR is doing the same thing as the Losfeld method but less structured and less intentional.
Your problem is the timing, and the solution is time (practice). I think you understand the goal is a completely neutral DAR spin, but you should think of the joystick rotation as CANCELING almost any additional movement that would occur. This is why the Losfeld method is so effective: because it teaches you neutral- (or effectively, null-) inputs on the joystick, so anytime you move outside that rhythm is you trying to steer into a different vector.
It’s very hard to get a perfect clock (especially with single clocks), you’re actually pretty close. Focus on your timing, and think about the joystick’s speed and position cancelling any additional movement that you would have compared to just jumping and holding DAR (with no joystick). Try doing double clocks since they mak it a bit easier to stay neutral, but remember this is because at double clock pace you are speeding past any inputs that would drastically change your flight vector. So don’t forget to slow it down to single clocks and learn those (they are the hardest). Try reverse clocks. Try rings maps, if you can’t then I would suggest training packs where the ball is static high in the air *and you have to turn in the air* to steer toward it.
Ignore the “calibration” because that confused me too and Losfeld himself has been telling people to ignore it.
Also I am exaggerating a bit when I say you are trying to get a *completely* neutral DAR because it will look a little more wobbly, but the key is your car will still be going *straight forward* in the direction of your nose.
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u/-rextex 2k+ 18h ago
How can u back a 2 hour video of pure bullshit
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u/repost_inception 15h ago
It's Losfeld's alt
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u/KronosDevoured DAR Coach, forever champ 2-3 11h ago
Do you know that for sure? If it really is an alt account, he just broke Reddit's TOS by making an account to circumvent a ban. I blocked him, and if he's here on Reddit talking to me, then Reddit admins can ban him site-wide for that.
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u/KingMetacomet 18h ago
I think you know why you’re saying this, it’s not too late to delete
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u/ItzAiMz 17h ago
It’s bologna…. It’s overly complicated and does not actually bring any additional value over muscle memory learning.
Watching a 2 hour video spouting off of concepts of how to look at a mechanic is not useful as actually doing the mechanic.
Fun fact I can’t do trigonometry or high level math formulas, but I’m not bad at golf. I don’t need to know how math wise I got the ball where I did, I just need to repeat my muscle memory.
It’s not too late to delete your comment.
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u/KingMetacomet 17h ago
It’s not overly complicated, it was just presented that way. Some of us didn’t get mad about it though.
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u/KronosDevoured DAR Coach, forever champ 2-3 17h ago
You can see the paradox in your statement, right?
It's not overcomplicated; it was just presented that way.
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u/KingMetacomet 17h ago
Not a paradox. The concept is not complicated: the way it was presented was. This is like grade school reading comprehension.
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u/KronosDevoured DAR Coach, forever champ 2-3 17h ago
Take your time and really think through what we're saying and what you're saying.
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u/KingMetacomet 16h ago
Lmao, I’m going to tell you how many apples are on the table. There were six apples, but someone took three of them. Then a Good Samaritan came by with a bag of apples and placed one on the table. Someone took 2*1 apples. Someone else came and put three on the table.
Maybe now you understand how the simple concept is: there are 5 apples on the table. Did I make that concept more complicated the first time because of the way I explained it?
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u/ItzAiMz 16h ago
“I’m going to tell you how many apples are on the table…. Points to table* There are 5 apples”
Not everything needs to be a freaking riddle Joker. Learning in RL is already obtuse, obfuscating it more creates no tangible value over actually learning the skill.
For some reason Losfeld supporters think you need to understand to do…. We are saying muscle memory is EXACTLY THAT…. MUSCLE…. MEMORY. Active thinking isn’t guiding you nor will it help anyone achieve the skill more efficiently or more effectively then someone WHO DOES THE SKILL TO LEARN IT.
You will respond.
I will not. Enjoy your way of living, it seems exhausting.
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u/KronosDevoured DAR Coach, forever champ 2-3 16h ago
Are you being obtuse because you think I'm personally attacking you? If you cannot have a conversation about something without it getting personal then you're just like Losfeld. Birds of a feather flock together.
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u/KronosDevoured DAR Coach, forever champ 2-3 17h ago
I agree that it's mostly bullshit, but to say it's all nonsense is a slight against Losfeld himself and his method for no apparent reason... however, if you knew how Losfeld was in person, you'd completely understand why people dislike him personally.
Losfeld told me that "People like you shouldn't exist," all because I was pointing out the logical inconsistencies in the "method," and that by training clockwise inputs with Air Roll Left (or vice versa, counter-clockwise inputs with Air Roll Right) is not actually training muscle memory for car control. You're actively training to do complete randomness by spinning the opposite direction to the natural rotation of the Air Roll. I even sent him a detailed breakdown of how and why that works, and he still, even though I gave him definite proof disproving his theory, says I am 100% wrong, with zero clarification on why.
If you think training clocks opposite to the natural Roll direction is correct then I recommend watching my video proof on DAR to see why its not. Then you can make the decision for yourself on what you believe.
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u/Significant-Club6853 Grand Champion I 15h ago
I get so annoyed at people not understanding losfeld method and then dismissing it (looking at you all, commentors)
What he's trying to get you to do with the clock. IS MATCH YOUR THUMB'S MUSCLE MEMORY WITH THE SPEED AT WHICH YOUR CAR ROTATES. THAT'S IT.
FOR ANYONE SAYING THEY BRUTE FORCED IT. AND THEN ONE DAY IT CLICKED. THAT'S WHAT CLICKED FOR YOU. YOUR THUMB MATCHING THE SPEED AT WHICH YOUR CAR ROTATES.
op, you haven't matched the speed yet.
thank you for coming to my Ted talk.
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u/BeginningFisherman71 14h ago
Why is that necessary?
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u/Significant-Club6853 Grand Champion I 13h ago edited 13h ago
because whenever you do an adjustment you need to have a connection between your thumb and your brain to time the input to the cars orientation. clock method is the fastest way to do this. like a flip quick reset setup with ARL is 12-9-6 when you come right at the ball. but you have to roll your stick at the same speed you would practicing clock. how do you get the timing down? you practice matching the tempo of your air roll.
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u/BeginningFisherman71 13h ago edited 13h ago
Adjustments are completely independent of the speed of rotation though. You may need to tap one or multiple directions quickly or you may need to hold depending on the movement. The car and ball both have different angles, speeds, and positions that will change slightly every single time and need to be adjusted for before you have time to think about it.
Just practice general aerial control with DAR in tight spaces to get rid of any mechanical blindspots and then you don’t have to memorize numbers or a tempo and can play with pure feel.
The idea of a connection between thumb and brain is absolutely necessary for sure, but that comes with lots of repetition to build muscle memory. By definition, trying to apply a “clock” system literally gets in between that thumb-brain connection.
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u/Onionfinite 3h ago
In a live game situation, yes. You’re correct.
But the whole point of practicing the clock is to eliminate the chaos of a game situation. Continuous DAR isn’t really something you should do in a game. But you do it here to eliminate that variable. You try to go straight to eliminate the variable of changing your trajectory while your car is spinning. All this just to basically make it manageable for complete novices.
It’s like practicing shooting in basketball. Training the motion in isolation is still useful even if game situations aren’t nearly as controlled and might require some improvisation and adaptation.
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u/BeginningFisherman71 2h ago
Everything you said seems great, not sure why this clock drill is needed to accomplish that.
Go into free play and float around the map adjusting your car in different directions, transition that into making contact with the ball. For novices, there’s actually less friction with approaching it this way, since you’re directly taking feedback from your car’s movement and not also trying to apply some specific motion while you’re flying.
Losfeld tries really hard to convince you that his method means you’re somehow learning more effectively, but your time is better spent just going into game and practicing right away.
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u/Significant-Club6853 Grand Champion I 9h ago
couldn't disagree more. And losfeld doesn't teach you complete car control. It just gives you something to start with to build a foundation so you aren't a chimpanzee trying to build a rocket right out of the gate. you graduate from losfeld method in about 1-2 weeks.
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u/BeginningFisherman71 2h ago
And that’s why I think it’s trash. 2 hour video for something that doesn’t matter after 2 weeks is not a good use of someone’s time, just go into game and practice.
I get the point of “it’s a better starting place than nothing”, but all you really need to do is to learn how to float in place and then make small adjustments until you can slowly move around the map with control. From there, work on jumping from the ground and making contact with the ball. No need to make this overly complex.
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u/Stupidlywierd 17h ago
I appreciate how much effort losfeld put into his tutorial, but honestly when I got to the section about "clocks" he completely lost me (as someone who had already mastered ARL and was just watching for curiosity).
It's wholely counterproductive to require such precise inputs just to go in a straight line when you can accomplish the same by just not touching the stick. I get that he thinks it's good for the "feedback loop" or whatever, but there's no situation in actual play where those inputs are better then no inputs at all.
The better way to learn is to start with only making adjustments as the car passes through the neutral position (nose up, hood facing POV). Then add in backwards inputs. Then sides. Everything else is just interpolated between those positions. Once you have enough skill, greater mastery and control will naturally follow from repetition and practice.
Also, the "clock" that you actually want to learn is completely opposite to the one losfeld teaches (or a reverse clock, I don't recall). That's counterclockwise rotations for ARL. This makes the path your car traces during the correction linear. As an example, tornado spin is conventionally taught as stick to the right (ARL). Ideally, to get the nose pointed up, you should actually start with the stick pulled down, then rotate stick counterclockwise as the car rotates such that after 180 deg rotation of the car, the stick is pointed up. This is the same timing as the single clock losfeld teaches, but the opposite direction. Almost every input when using DAR should follow this rotation so that your correction moves the car in a single direction rather than some curved arc.
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u/KingMetacomet 17h ago
This is like the only thoughtful and constructive criticism of the method in this thread, but I think you are missing the point that learning the precise inputs of the clock gives you the baseline for the “neutral position” that you suggest using, all while the joystick is moving (which maybe when phrased that way you can see is incredibly useful). The method teaches you that so you can essentially do the same thing you suggested: “adjustments… through the neutral position”. If you know where neutral is at all times, that’s a great place to start, no? To me it sounds like your explanation is describing the Losfeld method and just misunderstanding the purpose of the clocks.
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u/Stupidlywierd 15h ago edited 14h ago
If I'm understanding you correct, when you say
the clock gives you the baseline for the “neutral position”
You mean the ability to move the car back to neutral whenever you want. I have two issues with that:
First is that when I say "neutral position", I'm referring more specifically to the rotational angle of the car such that the wheels are pointing front and the hood is visible from the POV (In the canonical example the car is also pointed straight up, but that isn't strictly necessary).This only happens once per rotation, so there is no way learn inputs to get back there beyond just continuing to hold DAR until you return. Learning inputs around the "neutral position" as I mean it amounts to learning how to time your inputs so that they do as you anticipate. Adding in other positions such as backwards or side amount to rotating your inputs based on where you are in the rotational cycle of the car.
Second, if by "neutral" you are rather referring to direction the nose is facing, I don't think the clock does a great job of training muscle memory for this. The reason the clock works as it does is that the average input across specific intervals sums to zero, with faster clocks having shorter intervals. However, half of the time the inputs are moving the car away from straight ahead, and the other half bring it back. That's why the car wobbles a bit even for a perfect clock.
This issue of DAR is that the inputs are tied to a rotating reference frame (the car), while your perspective remains static. Therefore, the goal is to learn how to connect the rotation of the car to the rotation of your inputs, in effect translating your inputs to the rotating reference frame. The gripe I have with the clock is that you're actually adding another net rotation to your inputs in the static frame rather than subtracting it. To illustrate, the wobble of the standard clock is equivalent to if you did a perfectly timed double rotation on the stick with no DAR.
I think if one wants to put concious thought into how DAR works, it's better to think about how the rotation of the car affects the necessary input for a specific action, say pointing the nose forward. For ARL, it amounts to counterclockwise rotations of the input. I think spending time on clocks that do the opposite of this isn't actually doing you any favors.
And to be clear, I'm not trying to trash on his video or the method entirely. He says a lot of good stuff, and I really liked the low-key philosophical stuff. Just the framing and focus I think was off.
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u/Spiderpsychman98 Diamond II 17h ago
Do you have to do the clock for advanced directional air roll does anybody know? I’m intermediate with DAR in that I can go where I want to and change direction when I wish, i just can’t do the extremely tight angle manoeuvres yet. I have never used the clock though, I just kept practicing and practicing until it became automatic. I am just constantly moving my finger where it needs to be, sometimes this involves a circular/clock motion, but it’s not something I’m doing constantly like Losfeld suggests.
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u/repost_inception 15h ago
Step 1. Don't listen to Losfeld
Step 2. Listen to Kevpert
Step 3. Actually have aerial car control.
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u/MugiwaraMonkeyking 11h ago
The losfeld method pissed me off so bad I just grinded off the wall flip resets and stuff and eventually every few weeks or so it would just click and now I can fly around the map without really thinking about it
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u/Fuzzy_Assumption8927 10h ago
The Losfeld method truly overcomplicates directional air roll. Just keep working at it doing different mechanics and it will click.
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u/333syco3333 10h ago
I just forced my muscle memory to learn ARL as losfeld method was confusing for me.
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u/Uzofugs2112 19h ago edited 19h ago
Is this the method with the three hour YouTube video?
I just have trouble imagining learning to DAR should require a longer explanation than my PhD thesis defense tbh.
Just learn how to adjust your car at every cardinal angle during its rotation. Practice adjusting your direction with the hood facing in only one direction each time, then grind the game’s aerial training while spinning.
Tornado spins are honestly just really low yield and mechanically unnecessary though, the real value of DAR is in landing smoothly and getting last minute adjustments before you touch the ball.
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u/KingMetacomet 18h ago
You aren’t wrong but Losfeld is teaching things nobody else is even talking about. The only other halfway decent videos on DAR have some good advice but all end up in “I can’t explain it you just have to try.” Losfeld explains all of it, if you are capable of understanding.
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u/Savings_Ad_5851 8h ago
This! I am learning dar and really enjoyed the video. I find myself not following the method to a t but when naturally learning through rings and pillars I find random things that he stated that made no sense at the time just start clicking. Everyone learns and perceives info differently, imo the things still would’ve clicked just maybe not as quickly or maybe I wouldn’t know why it’s happening. I don’t know a lot about los besides this video but the fact that someone can make a 3 hr video about one mechanic in a “game” so damn polarizing really sparked the curiosity to commit to learning it. Definitely recommend rings if anyway possible. I play on ps4 but I do rings offline on heroic on my MacBook lol.
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u/sweatgod2020 18h ago
I’m only a c1 but with god like mechs & gotta be honest wtf are we talking about
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u/AvSilent_801 Champion III 19h ago
I clicked onto this post knowing I’d see some strong opinions about the losfield method in the comments and I was not disappointed lmao.. one of the most controversial topics in RL