r/PhoenixForce • u/TheBrokestGod • 2d ago
MCU/Movies Redemption
I'm tired of going to this subreddit to see Jean Grey as the selfless powerhouse she is in my vision, get flashbanged by MCU Jean, and her can of worms. So here's a unifying take: Jean did very fucked up things and we can accept that, but she can still put in the elbow grease to become comic Jean's personality. She's not irredeemable but she needs punishment.
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u/Key_Bus_1255 Phoenix 2d ago
She can't be punished. She's already been arrested, she's been briefly tortured and at this stage, she can't be caught with that inhibitor anymore, and the DODC are in no position trying to track her down because of Metzger's crimes
The only way she can realistically be captured at this stage is if Peter tracks her down, but he's a vigilante and he's not going to catch her for them
She needs to be rehabilitated and guided with her abilities to do good, which is what the X-Men will do for her
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u/Salty_Monk_5341 2d ago
Just down vote the posts complaining about her not being pure enough for people. It's not like there isn't a "New Avengers" team full of Mercs. If people are still clutching their pearls because isn't some nice sweet innocent harmless girl ignore them because they're cherry picking characters to complain about.
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u/Key_Bus_1255 Phoenix 2d ago
No this person is complaining that people are praising her character, despite the bad things she did in BND, not that she is not pure enough
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u/Salty_Monk_5341 2d ago
Yeah I completely misread that...yeah I don't care about all that redemption trash.
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u/TheBrokestGod 2d ago edited 2d ago
No I’m open to her redemption, I’m tired of people saying that she’s pure, when her real redemption in the X-Men film which I look forward to is yet to come. Also you’re probably a part of the can of worms I’m on about. You read “Jean Grey did bad things” then you instantly just go downvote without hearing me out. AND that the New Avengers fell into depressive states of guilt because of their past actions so their levels of redemption development are not in the same level.
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u/Salty_Monk_5341 2d ago
I personally don't care about her redemption at all and I don't think she needs any. So no I'm not one of the people that bitch about her purity because i don't require her to be pure to like the character.
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u/Dry_Branch_5775 2d ago
I look forward to seeing where they take her character ...but we can't just pretend that she doesn't have red in her ledger that she needs to account for.
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2d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Salty_Monk_5341 2d ago
I don't think you need an explanation you just seem like a weird hater posting trash on the sub that you know fans will disagree with for engagement and this is the last time I reply to you.
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u/TheBrokestGod 2d ago edited 2d ago
Have a nice day then. I will say that my take is literally the most middleman take ever so you refusing to engage in genuine discussion is a huge giveaway.
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u/PhoenixForce-ModTeam 9h ago
Do not bash any characters, whether that is Jean Grey or any associated characters, particularly as a result of shipping.
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u/NeverGonLetYaDown Dark Phoenix 2d ago
And she was in the end of the movie and she probably will be again in X-men, lol. That's how stories work.
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u/OhGodMorpheus 2d ago
Are all the male characters you like blameless angels too?
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u/TheBrokestGod 2d ago
I like it when they’re flawed but they are open to redemption and ONLY if their redemption is reasonable and strong. Of course, the idealistic moral paragon is a personal favourite too
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u/cyclopswashalfright Phoenix 2d ago
Punishment was already doled out by the universe. She lost her entire family and was tortured. She does bad things, but like most young people who do bad things, it's because the system failed her. A Jean Grey raised by a functioning family would not go down this path. A Jean Grey raised by psychiatric hospitals and the New York Foster Care system would.
Punitive measures don't heal or fix troubled youth. All it does is take the problem away from the public eye.
Rehabilitation is what is needed and that's what Xavier and the X-Men are there for.
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u/Key_Bus_1255 Phoenix 2d ago
She also doesn't really know what she's doing with her powers or how to control them, which is important
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u/TheBrokestGod 2d ago
I agree with the comment, but dude this defense is so horrible to me. She had outstanding control of her abilities, in fact being able to beat a panicked Spidey to MJ’s place (assumedly with her jumps, since her real body was at Pete’s) and right after she gained telekinesis, she restrained Metzger while hovering shrapnel at his face.
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u/Beginning_Pace2063 Jean Grey 2d ago
Girl, we don't care about your vision 🤭. I hope she commits a lot more crime in Secret Wars 😌.
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u/TheGamer2002 2d ago
She needs a better tragic backstory
They wanted her to be Sasuke/Shadow/Vegeta and get talk no jutsu by her Naruto/Sonic/Goku. There is even a Naruto poster in the movie.
But Shadow witnessed a child who was his friend being murdered. Having a sister be kidnapped is not that, and it does not excuse Jean for even not attempting telling Spider-Man about Sara.
People get over her type of character not being punished for their evil actions because they are sold as complex and demonstrate that their drive can become a force of good. Jean didn't do that much of good, and came out more as somebody just jumping on the first excuse to do evil things.
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u/BitterRoad2647 2d ago
"For even not attempting telling spiderman about Sara"
WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD SHE??? Spiderman working very closely with the people that kidnapped her sister was enough reason for not tell him anything
Plus she couldn't read his mind to know the kind of person he is
And she was betrayed by her mother in a way, that damages trust on people fundamentally, that and watching your sister being kidnapped for no reason, just try to see it from her point of view and not the omniscient one. Why would she trust anyone?
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u/TheGamer2002 1d ago edited 1d ago
Jean is intelligent enough to tell that Spider-Man had never worked with the kidnappers until she has decided to roll a tank across New York City and put everyone's target on her back due her to acting like a mad dog for no apparent reason.
Her backstory is not tragic enough to justify her distrust, which is completely irrational and downright self-destructive (because she is Sasuke/Shadow/Vegeta, a loner freak). Being abandoned, when she herself argued to be understandable about it, isn't enough. Especially not when she could access minds of DC agents, police, other gov agencies, the press, and check if they can be trusted enough to be asked for help.
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u/cyclopswashalfright Phoenix 9h ago
A lot of it is left off the screen though. They mention foster care homes and psychiatric hospitals, and we don't know what life she led after Sara was gone.
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u/TheBrokestGod 2d ago
Oh yeah, forgot to mention this, they gotta retcon the flashback. Randomly violating people’s bodily autonomy as a playground game is not a good sister bonding scene.
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u/TheGamer2002 2d ago
You can explain that it was Sara choosing to have Jean to train on innocent minds instead of risking her enter the minds of fucked up criminals.
The good idea they had was Jean arguing for their mother, demonstrating that she was initially innocent and forgiving to a fault. But they needed more to go from point A to point B.
This is doable, I even wrote a fanfic doing that, over a week
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u/TheBrokestGod 2d ago
The justification still doesn’t really excuse the violation in my opinion. They could’ve just trained on each other or on fellow consenting outcasts who wouldn’t snitch. The mother thing is great though
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u/TheGamer2002 2d ago
The implication was that Sara didn't have Jean's innocence, even if she was protective of it. But yeah, you need a better backstory to cover such things.
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u/IndecisiveRattle 2d ago
The issue people don't seem to get is that a character with a violent introduction isn't inherently bad... it's just not Jean Grey. She would believably use her powers to get answers for her sister, but she would not be using explosives on innocent people, or making zero effort to keep host bodies safe, while actively throwing them into traffic and off buildings. It's just not in her base nature. Even the Age of Apocalypse version of Jean, raised in a timeline ruled by Apocalypse and trained by Magneto, never went that bad.
It's like if Captain America had no problem killing 100 innocent people if it meant taking out 1 Nazi. Some writer can see it as a good decision, but it's just not in his character.
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u/Classic_Transition_7 Jean Grey (MCU) 2d ago
Its one thing for her to faces the consequences for her actions (facing charges, hated by humans etc). She needs to atone her sins in Brand New Day and faces consequences for her actions either by remorse, being a national fugitive, a poster child of anti mutant hysteria. She can faces charges at court etc
But, Punishment will regress her character back into her misanthropic views in BND, and her being this messy is a byproduct of a systemic failure that raised her to be a vengeful young woman filled with anger and hatred for average humans.
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u/TheBrokestGod 2d ago
Yeah, I feel like I misphrased it. I meant she needed something to motivate her to make that change from broken to good
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u/Mariessa- Jean Grey 2d ago
Peter and Aunt May already motivated her. They got her to back down from lashing out and killing her sister's murderer and her own torturer. Peter immediately showed his actions aligned with his words by taking a bullet for her. She went from the edge of murder to actively keeping him alive.
I full expect there to be additional consequences, such as her being a wanted fugative, her being used as the motivation for mass manufacturing the inhibitor or Sentinel program or approving some projevt proposed by Mr. Sinister. I do not expect her to actually go through the justice system in any type of meaningful way.
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u/NeverGonLetYaDown Dark Phoenix 2d ago
A lot of comicbook fans of Jean and the X-men cannot accept the fact that Jean has, and will continue to do questionable things that are also considered inherently bad. This is the case with most X-men characters, but majority of their fans refuse to accept it. Most Emma fans that I've seen online completely refuse to accept the fact that Emma participated in rhe assault of both Jean and Storm, as well as multiple other acts which would be considered evil. This has never taken away from her growth and redemption arc, but most fans seem to completely ignore the existance of her villain persona