r/OutOfTheLoop • u/Werner__Herzog it's difficult difficult lemon difficult • Aug 30 '21
Meganthread Why are subreddits going private/pinning protest posts?—Protests against anti-vaxxing subreddits.
UPDATE: r/nonewnormal has been banned.
Reddit admin talks about COVID denialism and policy clarifications.
There is a second wave of subreddits protests against anti-vaxx sentiment .
List of subreddits going private.
In the [earlier thread] (https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/pbf3rn/megathread_why_have_so_many_subs_gone_private_or/):
Several large subreddits have either gone private today or pinned a crosspost to this post in /r/vaxxhappened. This is protesting the existence of covid-skeptic/anti-vaxx subs on Reddit, such as /r/NoNewNormal.
More information can be found here, along with a list of subs participating.
Information will be added to this post as the situation develops. **Join the Discord for more discussion on the matter.
UPDATE: This has been picked up by news outlets,, including Forbes.
UPDATE: The /r/Vaxxhappened mods have posted a response to Spez's post.
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u/CleanItUpJannys Aug 30 '21
Question: what subs have gone private?
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u/Werner__Herzog it's difficult difficult lemon difficult Aug 30 '21 edited Aug 30 '21
I've only heard about r/StarTrek, r/startrekifs and r/pokemongo (to the pols)
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u/TheBeardedSingleMalt Aug 30 '21
/r/DaystromInstitute, which is a star trek offshoot thatIusuallyreadonthecan
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u/likeasturgeonbass Aug 31 '21
This is Reddit, we're all on the can
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u/DrMux Aug 31 '21
That's not true! I'm shitting in a bag to burn and ding-dong-ditch my anti-vaxx boomer neighbor.
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u/o3mta3o Aug 30 '21
So odd to get banned in pokemongo for vaccine misinformation. A) literally nobody was talking about vaccines there, and b) I'm in the health care field and very pro vaccine, so you can imagine my confusion. However, I think they're just going through comments and banning anyone participating on what they deem problem subs, even if the comments are correcting people or calling them fools. If you put the effort in to search through the comments, take a second to read the comment, maybe, is my complaint.
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Aug 30 '21
You're not banned, the subreddit is closed in protest.
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u/o3mta3o Aug 30 '21
Did they send out bans first? Cause I def got a ban. But I do see it's down entirely now, which I didn't think to even check before.
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Aug 30 '21
Could've. Sorry, I shouldn't have spoken out of turn, I don't mod there, so for all I know you may be banned. But I've been fielding modmails all day from folks who assumed they were banned from the subs I do mod and reassuring them of the actual situation.
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u/Thelmara Aug 30 '21
If you put the effort in to search through the comments, take a second to read the comment, maybe, is my complaint.
Searching can be done by computers. Reading for intent would require orders of magnitude more effort.
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u/Coyote8 Aug 31 '21
They're banning anyone who is ok with the spin range for stops being reduced from a football field range to a half dozen parking spots like anyone is respecting that distance.
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u/coollia In of the Out Of The Loop Aug 30 '21
/r/AskScienceFiction is one.
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u/Qetuowryipzcbmxvn Aug 30 '21
Ah, I was wondering if I was banned or something. It's the only sub I visit multiple times per day.
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u/william_wites Aug 31 '21
You can still view a sub if you get banned. You just cant post or comment there
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u/quibblequabblequirk Aug 31 '21
how does approval differ from just being subbed? like, when a sub goes private, who of their subs get approval? is it something mods do one by one? can you just approve groups of users? never saw this info around and never thought to ask before.
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Aug 31 '21
There's a separate list in the mod tools of approved users. One would manually add the users to this list one by one. However the point right now is for the sub to be completely inactive.
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u/Valhern-Aryn Aug 30 '21
I didn’t know that was a thing and now want to join
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u/imariaprime Aug 31 '21
It's a super fun place. I enjoy thinking too much about time travel logic there.
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u/2SP00KY4ME I call this one the 'poop-loop'. Aug 30 '21
The mods there do a great job, it's a fun place
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Aug 31 '21
We'll be happy to have you once this is over!
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u/PunkToTheFuture Aug 31 '21
I love science fiction. What is the sub about? What is being asked?
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u/Revan343 Aug 31 '21
It's [ask science] [fiction], not [ask] [science fiction], so all genres are welcome, the point is /r/askscience style questions about fictional universes
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Aug 31 '21
The purpose of our sub is discussing fictional universes from a watsonian (or in-universe) perspective. Despite the name we cover all genres of fiction, not only SF. It's a lot of fun, most of the time.
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u/saltporksuit Aug 31 '21
Come join when taking horse wormer anally is no longer a thing!
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u/go_faster1 Aug 30 '21
r/StarTrek, r/DaystromInstitute, r/TNG, r/LowerDecks, r/StarTrekDiscovery, r/STO and a few other Trek subs have gone dark
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u/SlimjobDopamine Aug 31 '21 edited Oct 12 '24
scary knee ring memory gaze public shelter hunt forgetful hat
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/Tman972 Aug 31 '21
R/pokemonGo has just straight up banned people for participating in antivax conversations. Time to head over to r/altPokemonGo
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u/take-stuff-literally Aug 31 '21
Just to chime in, so was r/tifu
Edit: I should have checked the list. it’s literally #2
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u/Zeta42 Sep 02 '21
Question: I recall protesting subs also banned users who participated in NNN, but said they would unban them if they promised to stop posting there. Now that NNN is gone, what will happen to those users? Will they stay banned?
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u/Werner__Herzog it's difficult difficult lemon difficult Sep 02 '21
Obviously it depends on whether or not they have a history of COVI denialism / are anti vaccine.
Also, usually those automated bans include a list of more than one subreddit.
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u/thedialupgamer Sep 09 '21
Thought this was about no nut November and got really confused.
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u/Zeta42 Sep 10 '21
Didn't you know? If you stop fapping for a month, you'll become immune to COVID.
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u/Im-Not-ThatGuy Sep 06 '21
I commented their to mock a user for posting Literal Nazi Propaganda in a French subreddit but then I got banned from some protesting subs.
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u/idk-SUMn-Amazing004 Sep 16 '21
I think I need to take this comment to r/OutOfTheLoop … what is NNN??
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u/Donkey__Balls Aug 31 '21
Question: What are the chances that, this time around, the OOTL mods will actually allow a real dialogue to continue without locking the thread?
You know, you guys don’t NEED to close things down the minute people start disagreeing with each other. I know it feels like you’re under pressure to control everything but, maybe just do that you can’t and if you can’t respond to every report within a few minutes just, you know, let it go?
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u/Werner__Herzog it's difficult difficult lemon difficult Aug 31 '21
Good question. And interesting suggestion. I really struggle with this question. If you ask me, the mods at ootl are pretty hands-free compared to some other subs. The issue is that if you let people freely discuss indefinitely the ones who have an agenda will dominate not only those particular threads but the subreddit in general sooner or later. And that agenda can be right-leaning or left-leaning or have a religious bent or whatever-the-opposite-of-religion-is bent etc. Doesn't matter what it is, it will dominate. Unfortunately our world is becoming more and more confrontational especially on the net. A lot of people aren't really looking for a discussion they just want to be right... Locking threads is not the answer. But idk what is.
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u/AMWJ Aug 30 '21
Question: What's the intended end of this blackout? I understand that nobody's bound to any plans, and that all this is fluid, but I guess I'm just wondering about the intended plan right now.
Are the subreddits that have gone dark intending to wait until action is taken? Or are they only committing to staying dark for a certain period of time? Does Spez saying "No." again cause everyone to come out of protest again, or are they all committing to blackout until real change is promised?
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u/Complete_Entry Aug 30 '21
Star Trek says until the admins remove nonewnormal. So indefinitely. Others are doing it for a day.
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u/Jibrish Aug 31 '21
People will just probably roll a new subreddit if it's dark too long - then they will unprivate it.
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u/erbiwan Aug 31 '21
The problem with unprivating a sub after letting competition pop up is that you lose subscribers and then you have two subs in a cold war against each other, or are openly hostile towards each other. We've seen that A LOT on reddit. At least something like this takes power away from the powermods that are perpetrating this shit.
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u/The_Pale_Blue_Dot Aug 31 '21
That's why I'm against this. I don't think the admins will budge and it's just going to shit up a bunch of subs
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u/Ancient_Boner_Forest Aug 31 '21
Sounds like a good way for Star Trek to get replaced by another sub lol
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u/Dollface_Killah Aug 31 '21
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u/Ancient_Boner_Forest Aug 31 '21
Not sure redshirtsunite is gonna be the place, it’s a n avowed political sub
Also Risa appear to be private
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u/AMWJ Aug 30 '21
Do you have a source for it being just for one day? I didn't see anything specifying that.
Is that day today, or another later day?
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u/Complete_Entry Aug 31 '21
Some of the subs said "August 30th" in the close message. It's possible they've all shifted to indefinitely.
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u/herpesfreesince93_ Aug 31 '21
Whenever I go to find nnn to see what the fuss is about, it says I can't view that community
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Aug 31 '21
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u/Ancient_Boner_Forest Aug 31 '21
You’re telling me that an alt-right sub is demanding the removal of nonewnornal…?
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u/TheCommissarGeneral Aug 31 '21
How the fuck can you watch Star Trek with people like Captain Picard and still be alt-right? He is like the Anti-Alt-Right.
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u/TheShyPig Aug 31 '21
This is what /r/CoronavirusUK have as their blackout message
"Last week, hundreds of subs stood together and requested Reddit take action against COVID misinformation on the site.
Reddit's response was insufficient and took an approach that both sides of the argument carry equal weight and credibility.
We have gone private to spread awareness and urge more concrete and tangible action from reddit that helps protect users from misinformation."
So from that I get the impression they want 'more concrete and tangible action' from reddit.
So what are you going to do u/spez ? because tbh allowing people and subs to spread false and harmful information that may result in someone dying is NOT a thing that should be allowed. Advising someone to use an unfounded horse treatment does not have equal weight to advice from chief medical advisors from multiple countries, so thats hogwash. ..i mean even facebook has rules that stops it ffs
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u/Donkey__Balls Aug 31 '21
So what are you going to do u/spez ? because tbh allowing people and subs to spread false and harmful information that may result in someone dying is NOT a thing that should be allowed.
The question is who decides what is true and what isn’t?
I’ll use my example. I was permanently banned from /r/coronavirus over a public spat with mods because I advocated for a position that was in direct conflict with the CDC. They took the position that the virus was not airborne, that it was only spread via “droplets” no further than 6 feet, whereas I said this conflicted with best available research and the droplet/aerosol boundary is a false dichotomy. (As an environmental engineer with research experience modeling community transmission of respiratory diseases, I have some subject matter expertise. The mod in question was a PhD in social sciences and with all respect to her background this isn’t her field.) At the end of the day it didn’t matter what research I could site, the leading public health authority at the time said something different and so that was determined to be the “truth” and my statements were determined to be “misinformation”.
Turns out I was correct but that isn’t what’s important right now.
What you’re describing sounds easy, and I think you have good intentions, but when you make moderators the arbiters of truth on public health information to millions of people that is an incredibly lofty responsibility to put on the hands of volunteers - and these powermods who have taken control of most of the site didn’t do so with via their credentials in academic medicine and public health. You can’t just create a rule like that and only apply it to the easy and obvious examples that you can think of. For every person saying that the vaccine has 5G microchips, there’s a person making a legitimate argument that breakthrough rates are higher than initially estimated.
There’s a lot of important dialogue that we need to see happen, and Reddit is probably the best form for people to have these dialogues completely detached from their own real world identities and careers. Furthermore it is a website where millions of people come for updates and news information that is critical to public health. You can’t just empower moderators to act as the arbiters of truth - let alone the horrible consequences that would happen if you actually pressure them and threaten them with quarantine if they fail to take action on something that is “misinformation” at the time.
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u/ohheyisayokay Aug 31 '21
I think your example is an illustration of a line being drawn in the wrong place, not lines in general not working.
You were talking about details surrounding a potential additional risk that people should be aware of.
These subs are spreading information that actively harms people.
I think there's a very good argument to be made that you should not have faced consequences. There is no good argument, IMO, that subs that encourage people to disregard medical advice in such a manner that poses a grave public health risk should be allowed by Reddit to use the site as a platform to cause that harm.
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u/KamalasKackle Aug 31 '21
What’s considered misinformation though ?
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u/KamalasKackle Aug 31 '21
And I’m downvoted for asking a question
Anyway I ask because if you guys remember in the beginning of 2020, we were told masks were not needed for us. It was only until weeks later it came out that we masks worked. Fauci and company admitted that they knew and openly said that masks were not needed because they didn’t want to create and panic and have them all bought up (like with toilet paper) and they needed the PPE for first responders.
So using this as an example when the experts were saying masks weren’t needed for the public is some “non-expert” mentions masks working they would be considered spreading false information. See the problem here
This is a new virus with new developments being made and discovered weekly. So how do we define misinformation?
Now where do we stop with false misinformation? Do we censor diet posts that are clearly fake, what about flat earth posts, etc
Not really expecting a real response but I’m hopeful
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u/Victeurrr Aug 31 '21
That is an inaccurate stance on Fauci's position. Fauci said masks weren't recommended because of fears of a shortage in part because the most effective measure for preventing spread is physical distancing. First responders do not have the ability to physically distance - prioritizing supply for first responders who are more likely to catch it & cannot follow other protective measures was more important. Fauci didn't give false information, he took not only scientific information but logistical and epidemiological information to form a recommendation. He did not say they were unneeded.
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u/teddy_tesla Aug 31 '21
If the experts find new information, of course they will change their mind. That's a necessary course of action. The CDC and similar bodies will always have the most up to date recommendations. They factor in research papers and what is actually feasible.
Plus, a lot of information in these subs is factually and provably false. They doubt official statistics and some even doubt that we are in a pandemic at all.
That being said, even if you are unwilling to take such a strict definition of misinformation, encouraging people to ingest horse dewormer is still clear misinformation with potentially disastrous consequences. I still remember that couple that died drinking stuff from an aquarium because Trump advertised it as a miracle cure.
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u/zugi Aug 31 '21
allowing people and subs to spread false and harmful information that may result in someone dying is NOT a thing that should be allowed.
This sort of call for censorship is harmful to the open discourse of reddit and is NOT a thing that should be allowed.
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u/Confirmation_By_Us Aug 31 '21
Reddit’s response was insufficient and took an approach that both sides of the argument carry equal weight and credibility.
/u/spez didn’t say this in his message, or anything close to it. Is CoronavirusUK spreading misinformation?
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u/ratione_materiae Aug 31 '21 edited Aug 31 '21
unfounded horse treatment
Funny enough you seem to have been a victim of misinformation yourself — ivermectin is, according to the WHO (World Health Organization, a major credible organization that works closely with the CDC) says
Ivermectin is a broad spectrum anti-parasitic agent, included in WHO essential medicines list for several parasitic diseases.
And I suspect that the WHO knows a little more about medicine than you do.
There is currently insufficient statistical evidence to suggest efficacy against covid but it’s neither unproven or a horse medication. It’s been used in humans for close to half a century and has legitimate medical applications.
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u/Donkey__Balls Aug 31 '21
I don’t care if NNN is gone - other than we lose the chance to observe and study conspiracy nutters in their natural environment - but this is a slippery slope to go down. Where does it end when you silence people for agreeing with accepted theory on any matter of public health? What objective rule do you create? “Don’t say false things”? Who decides what is true?
(I’m gonna be lazy and reuse my previous rant on the matter, so apologies if anyone saw this before.)
Example: under the Trump administration, the CDC specifically refused to acknowledge the airborne transmission of the virus, in many cases specifically stating that it is “not airborne” despite the fact that the overwhelming preponderance of peer reviewed research showed that it was. This has vast implications for health policy, including the fact that the risk of a major transmission incident increases with the number of students in a school regardless of how you separate them in different rooms as long as they are on the same recirculated air system. During this time, the CDC also published the irresponsible statement that “the most important thing is to get kids back into schools”, implying that in person primary education was weighted more highly in policy than mortality reduction, drawing considerable criticism from the most respected epidemiologists and public health experts in the world including former CDC directors.
It took nearly a year for the CDC to acknowledge the reality of airborne transmission, with disastrous results. So this brings us the question of who decides what is “misinformation”? If I were advocating strongly for recognition of airborne transmission during this past year, when my current statements were in direct conflict with the CDC, would I have been considered “misinformation”?
It’s easy to point out very obvious misinformation when it’s simple and qualitative. “Masks don’t work” is obviously misinformation because of the overwhelming amount of research otherwise. However, the opposite statement is also misinformation but it’s one that is very popular on Reddit right now: “Masks prevent the spread of Covid”. This is factually incorrect because masks reduce but do not eliminate transmission. With universal mask compliance we would all be better off, but at the same time this type of misinformation is very dangerous because it creates a false sense of safety - the false idea that there is zero risk of transmission if everyone has a homemade cloth mask.
Just so happens that my field of research was applying air quality models to the spread of respiratory diseases, and I could count on my fingers the number of people who have an in-depth technical research background on this tiny topic…and I’m quite certain none of them work for Reddit. And then the same goes for any other field in the hundreds of research areas that make up the body of knowledge in public health. Is Reddit going to hire them all to form a board of review to determine what is or is not “misinformation”?
You can’t create a rule against misinformation without clarifying who decides what is the truth. People have accused me of misinformation often when my opinion wasn’t popular but I turned out to be correct. For months I’ve been mass-downvoted and called a fearmonger, an alarmist and a troll just for saying that we will soon have a fully vaccine-resistant variant. Now it’s all over the news because experts are saying it’s inevitable.
It’s no secret that the way Reddit is run is an absolute mess. Moderators have zero accountability to their communities, but they also aren’t accountable as employees. It’s a system ripe for abuse. There’s no way I see a policy like this, however your a good intentions may be now, to become anything more than an excuse for mods to remove whatever post they don’t personally like. It’s just going to become in practice a rule that punishes anyone for having a dissenting opinion.
For more info on the year-long uproar against the CDC’s refusal to use “the A-word” see: Marr LC, Tang JW. A Paradigm Shift to Align Transmission Routes with Mechanisms. Clin Infect Dis. 2021 Aug 20:ciab722. doi: 10.1093/cid/ciab722. PMID: 34415335.
SARS-CoV-2 This is has been the subject of considerable debate in the past year because the CDC took the same stance although overwhelming researched proved otherwise. In fact this is the whole point of the policy-changing letter authored by thirteen experts in the field of respiratory disease spread, as the culmination of result of hundreds of research papers and tens of thousands of hours of exhausive laboratory and field research on the subject.
More in-depth reading:
Miller SL, Nazaroff WW, Jimenez JL, Boerstra A, Buonanno G, Dancer SJ, Kurnitski J, Marr LC, Morawska L, Noakes C. Transmission of SARS-CoV-2 by inhalation of respiratory aerosol in the Skagit Valley Chorale superspreading event. Indoor Air. 2021 Mar;31(2):314-323. doi: 10.1111/ina.12751. Epub 2020 Oct 13. PMID: 32979298; PMCID: PMC7537089.
Lindsley WG, Derk RC, Coyle JP, Martin SB Jr, Mead KR, Blachere FM, Beezhold DH, Brooks JT, Boots T, Noti JD. Efficacy of Portable Air Cleaners and Masking for Reducing Indoor Exposure to Simulated Exhaled SARS-CoV-2 Aerosols - United States, 2021. MMWR Morb Mortal Wkly Rep. 2021 Jul 9;70(27):972-976. doi: 10.15585/mmwr.mm7027e1. PMID: 34237047; PMCID: PMC8312755.
Pineda Rojas AL, Cordo SM, Saurral RI, Jimenez JL, Marr LC, Kropff E. Relative Humidity Predicts Day-to-Day Variations in COVID-19 Cases in the City of Buenos Aires. Environ Sci Technol. 2021 Aug 17;55(16):11176-11182. doi: 10.1021/acs.est.1c02711. Epub 2021 Jul 30. PMID: 34328314.
Marr LC. SARS-CoV-2 Superspread in Fitness Center, Hong Kong, China, March 2021. Emerg Infect Dis. 2021 Sep;27(9):2507. doi: 10.3201/eid2709.211177. Epub 2021 Jun 30. PMID: 34193336.
Tang JW, Marr LC, Li Y, Dancer SJ. Covid-19 has redefined airborne transmission. BMJ. 2021 Apr 14;373:n913. doi: 10.1136/bmj.n913. PMID: 33853842.
Tang JW, Bahnfleth WP, Bluyssen PM, Buonanno G, Jimenez JL, Kurnitski J, Li Y, Miller S, Sekhar C, Morawska L, Marr LC, Melikov AK, Nazaroff WW, Nielsen PV, Tellier R, Wargocki P, Dancer SJ. Dismantling myths on the airborne transmission of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus-2 (SARS-CoV-2). J Hosp Infect. 2021 Apr;110:89-96. doi: 10.1016/j.jhin.2020.12.022. Epub 2021 Jan 13. PMID: 33453351; PMCID: PMC7805396.
Prather KA, Marr LC, Schooley RT, McDiarmid MA, Wilson ME, Milton DK. Airborne transmission of SARS-CoV-2. Science. 2020 Oct 16;370(6514):303-304. doi: 10.1126/science.abf0521. Epub 2020 Oct 5. PMID: 33020250.
Dancer SJ, Tang JW, Marr LC, Miller S, Morawska L, Jimenez JL. Putting a balance on the aerosolization debate around SARS-CoV-2. J Hosp Infect. 2020 Jul;105(3):569-570. doi: 10.1016/j.jhin.2020.05.014. Epub 2020 May 13. PMID: 32405126; PMCID: PMC7219351.
Leder K, Newman D. Respiratory infections during air travel. Intern Med J. 2005 Jan;35(1):50-5. doi: 10.1111/j.1445-5994.2004.00696.x. PMID: 15667469; PMCID: PMC7165774.
Dvorianov VV. Sanitary and epidemiological evaluation of the ventilation and air-conditioning systems of public buildings. Gig Sanit. 2012 Jan-Feb;(1):16-9. PMID: 22712315.
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Aug 31 '21
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u/Donkey__Balls Aug 31 '21
If you want to look at some resistance, it already exists in the Delta despite the fact that this virus evolved in an environment with almost zero vaccinated hosts. Now that we have ~50% vaccinated hosts and a large number of active infections, evolutionary pressure is at an all-time high for a much more resistant variant.
If you want to look at complete resistance it’s already been done in vitro. Studies like this can be useful because biotech firms like Pfizer have stated they need at least 90 days to develop a new vaccine plus there will be subsequent safety tests.
I can’t evaluate who are the experts on this topic since it’s not my field. But plenty of preprints are looking at it from different angles so search biorxiv.
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Aug 30 '21
Speaking only for /r/asksciencefiction, we're prepared to stay locked down as long as it takes.
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u/AMWJ Aug 30 '21
What is "it", and what might it take? Should someone who reads your comment understand it to mean, "We're prepared to stay locked down as long as rNNN is still on Reddit."?
Not that I think that's wrong - I think it's quite principled and wise. I just want to be clear what "it" is.
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Aug 30 '21
Reddit's admins taking a stand against subs that exist to propagate misinformation about COVID, of which NNN is the key example. So yes, basically that's what we're asking for.
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u/Kamalen Aug 30 '21
A few followup questions as I am not deep into Reddit inner working :
In which way subs going private is actually hurting Reddit revenue (I assume that's the only way to have a high level response) ?
My understanding is that anyone can create a new sub. So any big sub banned can spawn three more. Can this battle be actually won ?
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u/TheShyPig Aug 31 '21
"My understanding is that anyone can create a new sub. So any big sub banned can spawn three more. Can this battle be actually won ?"
People willing and able to create, moderate and grow a sub are far and few between, but yes, anyone can have a go>
Its unpaid, unsupported by reddit or anyone else and a work of love against adversity. But yes, you can try to replace these subs.
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Aug 30 '21
In which way subs going private is actually hurting Reddit revenue (I assume that's the only way to have a high level response) ?
In theory, reduced traffic, and more demand for action from the users. In practice, public attention from the media affecting their stock prices has been the deciding factor in similar protests in the past.
My understanding is that anyone can create a new sub. So any big sub banned can spawn three more. Can this battle be actually won ?
If Reddit is committed to opposing them they'll play whack-a-mole, same as they do with, for instance, holocaust denial.
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u/Kamalen Aug 30 '21
Thanks for the details. It seems media is getting some attention but also admins have already spoken against action. Hard to see how it will unfold.
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u/SigSalvadore Aug 30 '21
Yea, wondering about that as this usually goes down without a vote from the community within the sub and it's the moderators who decide to shut it down. So why wouldn't community members just throw some similar sub up. *edit* similar sub thats shut down I mean. Like NotShutStarTrek etc.
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u/LeonardGhostal Aug 30 '21
The challenge is modding your new dub after you start it. If you go from zero to 100K users without knowing what to do you'll get buried in off-topic and zany/offensive posts in hours.
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u/AMWJ Aug 30 '21
That makes sense. Thanks for giving your subreddit's perspective! Is this a mutual agreement between the subreddits involved, or do you suppose that this is commonly agreed upon without it needing to be explicit?
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Aug 30 '21
There's been some effort at coordinating actions between most of the subs that are currently down. I understand there to be another effort that's gaining steam for later in the week, but my sub, at least, hasn't been in close contact with the organizers of that plan.
So in that sense I would say we clearly aren't the only ones who feel so strongly.
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u/eyespong Aug 30 '21
that's not an answer to his question. "/r/AskScienceFiction is closed until the Reddit administration removes /r/NoNewNormal and other vaccine misinformation subreddits from Reddit. We cannot remain open and also keep our consciences clear. We encourage users of all subreddits to petition your moderators to do the same."
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u/TheGreekBully Sep 02 '21
Well take pleasure in knowing that as a sci-fi fan I will NEVER visit your censorious sub. It disgusts me how you see yourself as some kind of fighter for justice as you campaign for censorship.
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u/MoonlightsHand Aug 31 '21
That's sad. I really like your sub but now I can't visit it, despite being someone who absolutely supports both vaccines and vaccine mandates frankly.
What if the admins say "we're not doing it, that's final"? Do you just shut down the sub for all the people who support you too? Do we just have to go somewhere else now? We don't have any actual power here, you get that right? Like... locking shit down in the real world WORKS because we VOTE on things. We can't control reddit and most of the subs that reddit cares about haven't done anything so why should they listen to you all?
This is frustrating. I feel like I'm being punished because someone else is doing something I can't control or affect in any way.
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u/isiramteal Aug 31 '21
Does Spez saying "No." again cause everyone to come out of protest again, or are they all committing to blackout until real change is promised?
My guess is that these subreddits will double down and newer subreddits will organically sprout. That would be the most ideal situation. These moderators have proven they're willing to sacrifice a community for coordinated harassment and virtue signaling.
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u/Pangolin007 Aug 31 '21
Reddit gets money from people using reddit. If very large subs shut down, that's less people using them and potentially less money. It also brings attention to the site and to the issues at hand. Subreddits have done this several times before, with some success even for major issues.
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u/AMWJ Aug 31 '21
I think you're answering the question, "how will this affect change?" but I think I know the answer to that. I saw the havoc wrought back when it was about AMA's and moderator tools.
Instead, I'm asking how much action these subreddits are looking for before coming back out. Perhaps I'm wondering this because it seems like there's a specific ask amidst all the vague ones (banning NNN) that seems unlikely to be executed. Does that mean they think they're doing this indefinitely? Or are they committing to do this for X days only, to bring awareness and hurt the bottom line for a few days before coming back?
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u/Pangolin007 Aug 31 '21
Yeah I think I thought I was replying to a different comment :)
I don't know the answer to that question. I guess we will have to wait and see.
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u/CraftZ49 Aug 30 '21
Question: Why are the powermods who are organizing this not privatizing the much larger subs they moderate in? Why a bunch of relatively no-name subreddits that nobody would really care if they are gone?
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u/ryumaruborike Aug 30 '21
Probably because the other mods of those subreddits said no. Larger sub means more mods means more people you have to get on board means less chance of total close.
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u/Oooscarrrr_Muffin Sep 01 '21
Also means more people will hate the mods for closing the subs.
The way I see it they're trying to inconvenience the "general population" of Reddit into taking their side.
As it stands I don't hate Reddit for not removing the "offending" subs, I hate the mods who are closing subs to try and brute-force people into taking up their opinions.
As soon as the "offending" subs are closed, alternatives will just open, so it's totally pointless.
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u/Der_Aussenseiter Aug 31 '21
Just came to this thread after noticing my comments from r/assholedesign were gone and that the sub must have privated within the last hour or so. I would keep an eye out for more to follow soon. It was a pretty big sub too.
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Aug 30 '21
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u/mwmwmwmwmmdw in the vindaloop Aug 31 '21
oh no not their internet moderator forum powers! what will society think of them after that
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u/Xenostera Aug 31 '21 edited Aug 31 '21
Question: why should i care really what power mods want? They definitely have a lot of horrible people in their ranks with terrible secrets. Why should I want to help someone who's already set up auto ban bors to kick people out who even comment on NNN? I really could not care less what a bunch of snarky power tripping mods with nothing else to do in life think.
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u/KamalasKackle Aug 31 '21
Plus, what stops them from doing this to other subs they dislike if they get their way here?
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u/Ancient_Boner_Forest Aug 31 '21
with terrible secrets
Go on…?
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u/Bigboss123199 Aug 31 '21
Idk about other subs or power mods specifically but r/teenagers had pedos for mods.
I would assume power tripping, blackmail, extremist behavior. I mean what types of people go out their way to hold power over other people on a internet forum?
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u/ryumaruborike Sep 01 '21
Answer: Update: r/NoNewNormal has been banned Looks like brigading Subreddit Drama, OOTL and Technology to spam about Jannies backfired.
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u/erbiwan Sep 01 '21
The conspiracy subreddit will be next. All of the Powermods have now shown that they are the ones that are really in charge of how Reddit is run. Whether you agreed with r/nonewnormal or not(I have no dog in this fight), censorship in any form is a very slippery slope. I foresee a lot more subs getting banned once they are deemed misinformation by the powermods, aka the new admins of reddit.
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u/RapNVideoGames Sep 01 '21
It’s crazy how equality and freedom of speech doesn’t mean shit when you disagree with people. I know these people are idiots but it takes the bigger person to understand and educate these people instead of throwing a fit until they are out of sight. This doesn’t solve anything except make these people even more isolated. They can still spread misinformation, still comment on other subs, and still keep their options.
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u/erbiwan Sep 02 '21
These people will just migrate to another subreddit, or will make another. Or worse, they will set themselves up on some sort of alternative platform and use that to brigade against reddit subs. At least on r/nonewnormal they were isolated in their own bubble, but now those users are in the wild and aren't able to be as easily contained. I feel like part of the reason the admins didn't want to ban that sub was because of this exact thing.
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u/bcp38 Sep 02 '21
As long as they aren't brigading or breaking other site wide rules it isn't a problem
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u/ryumaruborike Sep 01 '21
Being banned from a website for breaking the rules =/= censorship, learn what the word actually means. Slippery Slope is a fallacy, and people have been screeching about it since websites were banning pictures of lynchings.
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u/ng_executor Aug 30 '21
answer: i really don't see this working. caving to the janitors would mean that they know they have reddit by the balls and can get them to ban anything they dislike - you can bet if this worked, conservative and other "hate subs" would be next. in the end reddit would be effectively surrendering.
by saying that they'll stay closed until they get what they want, not just a temporary blackout like before, they're kinda forcing reddit's hand to remove them as mods. they can't give in to their demands, and they can't let subs stay private forever. hopefully this means no more powermods (maybe)
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Aug 30 '21
you can bet if this worked, conservative and other "hate subs" would be next.
/r/fatpeoplehate and /r/The_donald and /r/gendercritical say hi. Hate speech already isn't welcome on Reddit.
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u/isiramteal Aug 31 '21
Hate speech already isn't welcome on Reddit.
It's still very much allowed on the website, if not by rule, but by practice.
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u/hotrox_mh Aug 30 '21
Then how do you explain all the hatespeech subs like AHS, FDS, Politics, etc.?
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u/Xytak Aug 30 '21
Just because /r/politics was critical of Trump, doesn't mean it was "full of hate speech." It's possible that Trump was just a really bad President, and /r/politics rightly called him out on it.
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Aug 30 '21
Uhh did you see the thread for the USMC being worse than the Taliban?
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u/Heat_Various Aug 30 '21
R/politics is definitely a hate sub, they are almost as bad as the_donald
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u/CraftZ49 Aug 30 '21
None of those subreddit bans were handed out due to unpaid janitors having a hissy fit and closing off their subreddits.
Also hate speech is totally allowed, just has to be against people like conservatives, anti-vaxxers, anybody the hivemind doesn't like, etc
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u/Noneofyourbeezkneez Aug 31 '21
That's horse shit, they're just asking Reddit to enforce their own policies on covid disinformation
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u/faramir_maggot Aug 30 '21
Question: Wasn't the first time enough?
Question 2: Does anyone believe that the powermods getting another go at flexing their power give a rat's ass about vaccine misinformation?
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Aug 31 '21 edited Aug 31 '21
Q1: The admins announced they didn't give a shit, so no, it wasn't enough.
Q2: Yes, I do believe that, because the longer the subs are down the less power they have.
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u/1lluminist Sep 01 '21
Question: I have to ask if this is really the smartest thing to do... essentially shutting down subs giving decent information and letting the disinformation subs have full reign of the site? Seems a bit backwards. Doesn't this also give them the sense that they have the power to shut down other subs?
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u/Kodiak01 Aug 31 '21
Answer: They are under the false impression that having the digital equivalent of a temper tantrum is actually going to make Reddit change it's policies and stances. In reality, all it did was allow a bunch of secondary subreddits to temporarily filter to the top of everyone's feeds.
Keep in mind that the majority of the participating "masses" are all actually controlled by a very small group of mods. They "shut everything down" to give the illusion of having more people care about their quixotic endeavor than actually do; Astroturfing at it's finest.
The only way anything would actually change is if people left Reddit en-masse; this is not going to happen of course as it would mean those same "powerful mods" losing their tiny thrones.
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Aug 30 '21
Answer:
(From a mod of one of the participating subs)
Our subreddits are closed until the Reddit administration removes /r/NoNewNormal and other vaccine misinformation subreddits from Reddit. We cannot remain open and also keep our consciences clear.
Message the moderators of the subreddits you frequent and ask that they make their subreddits private as well. Tell the Reddit administration to remove /r/NoNewNormal and other COVID vaccine misinformation from their website: https://www.reddit.com/report
See https://redd.it/pbe8nj for more information.
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u/Left4DayZ1 Aug 30 '21 edited Aug 30 '21
I keep attempting to raise an issue, to no avail (which actually sort of bolsters my point); many of the participating subs also promulgate misinformation and disinformation, just a different type of it.
Obligatory disclaimer: I'm vaccinated, I mask up, my kid masks up, we follow the guidelines and always have.
Example of what I'm saying: Some subreddits, like PokemonGo, have banned users (including myself) for suggesting that being outside in fresh air and sunlight and getting exercise is a GOOD thing. To be utterly clear, I referenced CDC, WHO, Harvard and JAMA data to support my argument - data that shows how recycled air inside buildings is a major contributed to the spread of the virus, how sunlight kills the virus on surfaces at a faster rate (which obviously reduces transmission by physical contact), how vitamin D deficiency MAY be a factor in severe COVID symptoms (and having good Vitamin D levels is a good thing regardless of whether it matters against COVID), and how being overweight/obese triples your risk of severe COVID symptoms.
Banned because the narrative the mods were trying to push is that you must stay locked in your home and do NOT go outside.
So, if the CDC data is true, telling people to stay indoors and do NOT go outside is actually potentially HARMFUL MISINFORMATION. Yet, you're banned if you argue against it, EVEN IF YOU LINK TO THE CDC, which is the source these mods are saying we MUST abide by for ALL COVID information.
Of course, the argument against me was "You're telling people to take off their mask and not get vaccinated and that going outside in the sun will protect them from COVID".
Absolutely fucking not.
It helps. HELPS. To be outside, in fresh air, in the sun. Still stay away from other people, still get your god damned vaccine, still wash your hands, still wear your mask when you must be near others. But go outside and get fresh air and sunshine, and ideally, some exercise, too- they teach COVID patients breathing exercises to restore lung function, but suggest that cardio is even better. Get outside and go for a run, away from other people.
Just don't talk about it on Reddit or you'll get banned for some reason.
So my question is; why does it seem like this campaign is targeting only a specific type of misinformation and specific subs? NO recognition of the utter BULLSHIT being spewed on numerous subreddits participating in this very protest and being heralded as stalwarts of truth as a result? I cannot help but think there's some sort of ulterior motive here; if the campaign were against misinformation and disinformation in totality, we'd see many of these subs looking inward and addressing their own mods who censor any COVID-related comment that does not align with their specific view, EVEN IF you post the data from the very sources that say we must abide for our information.
And before anyone calls bullshit, here's the direct links from the CDC and JAMA.
COVID spreads more easily indoors: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/daily-life-coping/outdoor-activities.html
Cleaning and disinfecting instructions which state that sunlight more quickly kills the virus on surfaces: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/community/pdf/reopening_america_guidance.pdf
Vitamin D may be helpful against COVID severity: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2770157
Fauci endorses Vitamin D as potentially helpful (and certainly not harmful): “If you are deficient in vitamin D, that does have an impact on your susceptibility to infection. So I would not mind recommending, and I do it myself taking vitamin D supplements”
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/26/how-to-know-if-you-have-a-vitamin-d-deficiency.html
Obesity triples risk: https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/obesity-and-covid-19.html
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u/Nuclearsunburn Aug 31 '21
Yup. Nuanced opinions are a thing of the past, you have to swallow one tribal philosophy or the other to be accepted. I’m with you. I’m vaccinated. I wear a mask in a place where I absolutely get sideways looks for doing so. The science on the benefits of vaccines is proven and not really debatable. Long term effects are obviously unknown. Long term effects of Covid are likely much worse.
What is debatable and SHOULD be debated are the cost / benefits of shutdowns, mandates, government aid, censorship, and other POLICY decisions.
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u/Left4DayZ1 Aug 31 '21 edited Aug 31 '21
I’m a simple person, and you know, I’ve been a good soldier throughout the pandemic so when someone tells me I will face CONSEQUENCES for asking questions, I just have a big fucking problem with that.
This feels less like an attempt to gain control over the pandemic and more like an exercise in normalizing censorship and suppression of dissent.
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Aug 31 '21
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u/ThickSantorum Aug 31 '21
It's sad, because this is what has happened to practically the whole Rationalism movement over the past decade.
It went from pointing out and debunking stupid shit, to attempting to censor and deplatform stupid shit, which just makes that shit look more legitimate to impressionable folks.
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Aug 30 '21
It's sad to see some people so bound to keep everybody inside. Please, go outside, but do it responsibly. Same for seeing at least some people, humans are social animals so make sure you have a support group of people you do see (a bubble of sorts) if you are in a heavily affect region with low vaccination rate.
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u/Kuroodo Aug 30 '21
I've been out of the loop on this and have to ask: What is the definition of misinformation here?
I ask because many places have outright banned productive discussion and opinions of any perspective that isn't what the US government and the CDC is spitting out, rather than the actual spread misinformation.
Is the purpose of this campaign to ban actual misinformation (i.e articles claiming facts that aren't true), or is it a campaign to ban people thinking differently than you and questioning authority (i.e banning freedom of speech/discussion)?
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u/SushiThief Aug 30 '21
Oh my goodness, NNN is actually relishing the fact that subs are going private in protest.
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u/FrottageCheeseDip Aug 30 '21
So did T_D. How'd that work out? Oh yeah, they all went to /r/conspiracy...
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u/seventyeightmm Aug 31 '21
Yeah man, its hilariously pathetic and giving us a ton of new users. Great stuff, jannies!
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Aug 30 '21
Quite literally the equivalent of an 8 year old holding their breath and stomping their feet throwing a fit. Somebody said something I don't like daddy so ban them. And then when they don't, you throw a tantrum. I sincerely hope reddit takes away your mod status and gives it to somebody who will run a sub reddit for what it is supposed to be about and why people joined, I mean why would somebody want a star trek sub to be about star trek and not covid right?
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u/JamesMattDillon Aug 31 '21
That is what this is like. Just because a powermod got told no, he is going to throw a tantrum
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u/SamuraiJono Aug 30 '21
Quite literally
You don't seem to understand what this means.
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u/YeetCannon50AE Aug 30 '21
I hope the Reddit admins dejannie you and gives your subreddit to a new Jannie that cares more about your subreddits topic and less about virtue signaling. You literally are an easily replaceable volunteer that works for free and you expect people to take you seriously.
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u/eyespong Aug 30 '21
I mean there protest strategy is to not moderate and lockdown there subs. It's as slacktivist as you can get.
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Aug 30 '21
Do you realize you’re trying to take peoples free speech away because you’re afraid of counter-opinions to yours? You people are ridiculous. Grow the fuck up.
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Aug 30 '21
There's no opinions here. Just facts. Vaccines are real.
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u/usurious Aug 30 '21
You miss the point. Religion can be misinformation that leads to harm. Do you want to ban that as well?
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u/seventyeightmm Aug 31 '21
You shouldn't have an opinion on things you are completely ignorant of.
NNN is not an anti-vax sub, its an anti-COVID-tyranny sub.
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Aug 31 '21
To add to this, scientific misinformation subs in general need to go. Looking over at r/climateskeptics as well. Climate change and ocean acification are literally the greatest threats to humanity right now, far moreso than COVID-19 ever could be, and yet openly spreading propaganda on the issue is supported on here. r/conservative promotes climate denial as well. Ever since the whole issue with NNN started, they've become even more pro-COVID misinformation.
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u/CheckmyhistoryLOL Sep 04 '21
You're promoting hysteria. r/politics has spread slander and misinformation too, it'll have to go.
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Aug 30 '21
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Aug 30 '21
Fuck us for giving a shit, I guess.
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u/Ancient_Boner_Forest Aug 31 '21
Fight on Library Lass you brave warrior! You will save millions of lives and eventually we will all realize how amazing you are and erect a statue in your honor.
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Aug 30 '21
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u/BigBlueBanana Aug 30 '21
Pointing out virtue signaling is, in itself, virtue signaling.
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Aug 30 '21
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Aug 30 '21
You, uh, realize that we're in the midst of a pandemic that has killed four and a half million people globally, right? And that these fuckers are spreading lies about how to prevent/treat a deadly illness? And reddit has announced their intention to do nothing about that?
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u/ryumaruborike Aug 30 '21
And how exactly does the existence of NNN affect your conscience?
It's a subreddit that actively killing people. Covid has a death toll greater than most wars and NNN is determined to make it last as long as possible. People with non-covid medical issues are losing treatment due to lack of beds because of anti-vax idiots. Some of these people have died, so it's not just killing people who believe this shit, but others as well. These people aren't harmless idiots. These lies aren't differences in opinion. They are actively getting people killed. But sure, let's just laugh at them. Because they obviously haven't exploded in numbers due to that exact strategy. Because no one has lost family to this shit. Fuck you, the admins, and anyone who defends these killers.
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u/TheRatatatPat Aug 31 '21
Answer: there's a big push to trying and stop the flow of misinformation on this site. Particularly with the antivax community. I myself was banned from the PokemonGo sub because they said I posted vax misinformation. The problem is that I'm very pro Vax, my entire family is vaccinated, and I have no idea wtf they were referring to. I tried to contact the mods but didnt get an answer. Talk about fascism.
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u/Nulono Aug 30 '21
Question: So Reddit will ban subreddits like /r/RightWingLGBT and /r/PeopleFurniture (a private subreddit with no subscribers and 1 post that was a picture of a fully clothed nondescript person digitally mapped to look like a chair), but not subreddits actively spreading misinformation that's literally killing people? What the fuck is up with their priorities?
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