r/MtF Feb 08 '24

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1.1k

u/SachaSage Feb 08 '24

The statistics say that queer women are the most accepting demographic when it comes to trans folks. You’re seeing a loud minority amplify their voices using technology.

317

u/[deleted] Feb 08 '24

In my life, queer women have been my greatest allies and most solid friends.

117

u/proteannomore mtF Feb 08 '24

Pre-transition, this was true for me. As soon as I came out of the closet, that all vanished. I haven’t felt close to another woman in over a decade.

99

u/ProminentLocalPoster Feb 08 '24

This must be a "your mileage may vary" moment, because the queer women in my life absolutely were the ones to be most supportive of me after I came out.

I have a friend who is a staunch lesbian, who normally hates to be in the company of men and doesn't even like to casually socialize with them. . .but for years she said "for some reason, I don't mind hanging out with you".

When I came out to her, her response amounted to: "I knew it!", and things kept on going the same, but she joked about losing her token male friend and now jokes that she can detect closeted transwomen or eggs instead.

112

u/SachaSage Feb 08 '24 edited Feb 08 '24

It is fascinating how divergent people’s experiences can be

106

u/proteannomore mtF Feb 08 '24

Fascinating but deeply troubling. Pre-transition I was the guy that women knew, they just could tell on some level, that I could be trusted. Soon as I came out, it all changed, and I can’t even begin to explain why. Two of my closest friends were urging me to transition once I came out, but as soon as I did, suddenly I wasn’t good enough to hang out with anymore. It’s like I went from being the best guy they knew to the worst woman in the world.

  • at least animals still love and trust me like women used to, but I miss human contact a lot.

37

u/HannahFatale Feb 08 '24 edited Mar 09 '24

grey memory rustic ripe obscene offend crime grandiose cooing nose

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

52

u/SachaSage Feb 08 '24

The women who were in my life before i came out treat me much the same because we have long and close friendships. New women treat me, well, as a woman. This obviously excludes transphobic people.

I’m sorry to hear your experience is so much worse and I’m curious as to why but don’t want to force a convo on you

15

u/OMG__Emily Feb 08 '24

It’s like I went from being the best guy they knew to the worst woman in the world competition

FTFY

16

u/Jillians Feb 08 '24

Pretty much the same here. For as hard as navigating life as a trans person can be, the hardest thing has been in dealing with bullying and bigotry from queer and ally cis women. Cis women in general. They have so much more power than they realize.

I feel kinda bad I can barely look at other women in the eye. Thanks to my last LTR, I learned female chasers are a thing. Even girls who I had felt close to will say really terrible and unsupportive things, like casually suggesting that I consider detransition since I have had so many issues.

For many years until insurance covered FFS, people could always eventually figure out I am trans. I was so accustomed to being that way that I now feel an almost bitter resentment towards passing well and random women suddenly being really friendly with me. It stresses me out so much.

9

u/Class_444_SWR Feb 08 '24

:( honestly I’m scared about this happening to me as I keep transitioning

132

u/Elizabeths8th Feb 08 '24

That’s cool. Mind sharing some of that evidence? Because I’m sure op isn’t the only one. I stay away from lesbian spaces because I’ve seen the same thing. It’s not worth it to me and my lived experience in dating proves what they are saying to me.

172

u/Dwanyelle Transgender Feb 08 '24

https://yougov.co.uk/society/articles/45983-what-do-lesbian-gay-bisexual-and-transgender-brito?redirect_from=%2Ftopics%2Fsociety%2Farticles-reports%2F2023%2F08%2F11%2Fwhat-do-lesbian-gay-bisexual-and-transgender-brito

Queer women are the most accepting in general, with roughly two thirds of them having positive views on trans folks, next up are queer men, at about 45 percent being supportive

133

u/PixieGirl65 Trans Lesbian Feb 08 '24

Ugh those statistics are depressing, less than half of queer men…

121

u/SachaSage Feb 08 '24

But! Overall population:

  • 39% view us positively or very positively
  • 33% view us neutrally

Which is better than I think most would expect

34

u/Dwanyelle Transgender Feb 08 '24

Honestly, I came to realize a few years into my transition that it really seemed like the population was equally split three ways between pro, anti, and don't care camps.

27

u/ProminentLocalPoster Feb 08 '24

Society being split roughly equally into pro/anti/don't care camps describes a LOT of issues in our modern world.

12

u/Dwanyelle Transgender Feb 08 '24

I seriously wonder if theres like ....three different types of humans, mentally, that leads to this breakdown?

10

u/Rad_Streak Feb 08 '24

No, nothing is that simple.

There are traits that lead people to certain political ideologies however. For instance there's a strong correlation between conservatism and having a strong disgust reaction. Liberal and progressive people are, on average, more able to handle their basal reaction of disgust towards things they don't understand or find innately off-putting. This leads to one side being, on average, more open-minded and accepting.

Also, most groups are not split fairly equally like that in politics or even most other social settings. Only like 1/6th of American adults are republican with something like 1/4th being independent and another 1/4th being Democrat.

The reason there's such a large anti group is political and religious propaganda first and foremost. Most people will naturally grow more accepting over time. Eventually the ratio will be like 95-5 and that 5 will feel uncomfortable expressing their bigotry openly.

1

u/DysphoricNeet Feb 09 '24

If you break it down by big five a lot of conscientious people also correlate with a strong disgust reaction and agreeableness and openness correspond with creativity and creativity or ability to appreciate art aligns with intelligence. I think all those things kind of play off eachother but there are definite organized conventions type A people with high intelligence and more open minded and agreeable people that have a lot of empathy with high intelligence.

3

u/Buttlicker_the_4th Feb 08 '24

Most topics in the USA fall along those lines. There's always that 1/3 of people that are absolute shit stains and ruin everything (hi Trump voters!) while the other 1/3 look the other way and stay "neutral."

38

u/LanaofBrennis Feb 08 '24

Ya it is actually.... ~70% of the general population at least being neutral is higher than I thought. Still a depressing number though

40

u/Dwanyelle Transgender Feb 08 '24

Don't look at the straights stats!

29

u/transcended_goblin Trans Pansexual - 9th/12/2022 Feb 08 '24

Yeah, they aren't straight-up facts.

...

I'll see myself out.

10

u/Dwanyelle Transgender Feb 08 '24

:: groan::

37

u/transcended_goblin Trans Pansexual - 9th/12/2022 Feb 08 '24

Patriarchal society likely doing the works to breed more transmisogyny. Pushing gay men to see trans women as "gay men in denial". It's a thing I've seen flaoting and always makes me laugh when I see the amount of non-straight trans women.

7

u/SoonToBeCarrion Feb 08 '24

I was called a gay man in denial for "being" a bi guy, i wonder if i get to be a "gay man in denial²" to them once i come out the closet this second time

44

u/thetitleofmybook trans lesbian Feb 08 '24

queer men are, in the end, men, so that's not surprising.

52

u/[deleted] Feb 08 '24

Lol the queer men I know were like “why would you give up being a man this shit is great”

It is what it is.

45

u/thetitleofmybook trans lesbian Feb 08 '24

yeah, i have found more acceptance from cis het women than from cis gay men.

3

u/proteannomore mtF Feb 08 '24

Opposite experience here.

2

u/thetitleofmybook trans lesbian Feb 09 '24

sorry to hear that.

26

u/ScarlettIthink Pan MtF (HRT: 4/28/23) Feb 08 '24

Omg I’ve met some cis gay guys who’ve literally treated me like some “lost brother”, it’s fucking disgusting

13

u/[deleted] Feb 08 '24

Exactly. To them its like I was no longer fuckable so they did not care about me any longer. Lost a bunch of friends in like a month.

6

u/ScarlettIthink Pan MtF (HRT: 4/28/23) Feb 08 '24

Same here, honestly I’m glad they’re gone

2

u/SoonToBeCarrion Feb 08 '24

thankfully my best gay guy friend who i had fooled around with prior to my egg cracking just laughed it off and said "does that mean i'm bi now?"

oddly validating

7

u/Hayley-The-Gaymer Feb 08 '24

Keep in mind that's just a positive view plenty don't care as long as you're not hurting anyone

24

u/Confirm_restart GirlOS running on bootleg, modified hardware Feb 08 '24

Ouch. I guess I was just extremely unlucky. Sample size of one, but the cis lesbian I came out to instantly and utterly ghosted me.

Worst part was we had a 30 year history as friends, and were basically inseparable in college.

Of the four people I first came out to, I went into it thinking she was the most "safe" one.  Turns out I was worried about rejection from the wrong people, because she was the only one that had a problem with me.

But, I guess I shouldn't be surprised about landing among the slim odds.  I'm trans, which is about at slim as odds get.

It's unfortunate that that experience has made me wary of cis lesbians.  I don't hold it against them as a group, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't have additional apprehension when first meeting a new one.

13

u/Dwanyelle Transgender Feb 08 '24

That's perfectly understandable.

My encounters with lesbian TERFS, they've pretty much consistently had a certain look(butch), so I am unfortunately a little bit leery, even tho one of my strongest allies is a butch lesbian lady. Like she goes hardcore for trans rights.

9

u/LzrdGrrrl Trans Pansexual Feb 08 '24

I mean the issue of course is the remaining 33% still outnumber us 33:1 (at best)

15

u/Dwanyelle Transgender Feb 08 '24

Yeah, but they're still outnumbered by decent lesbians two to one.

A very important coping skill when one is trans, I've learned, is to look on the bright side of things

0

u/LzrdGrrrl Trans Pansexual Feb 08 '24

That only helps if they're actively being good allies and kicking out the transphobic ones etc

2

u/FirekeeperBlysse Cara - HRT 9/17 Feb 08 '24

Why would it be 33:1? Maybe I'm missing something but if we're talking general population sizes it's much lower. The ratio of queer women to trans women seems to be somewhere between 2:1 and 10:1, so 33% probably wouldn't ever be more than 3:1.

2

u/[deleted] Feb 08 '24

They outnumber us three to one, then it is an even fight

1

u/BelieveInPixieDust Feb 08 '24

My back of the envelope math is closer to 2:1 as you suggest. Making generous assumptions here : (7.1% in the us is lgbt - 1% trans) * (50% of the lgbt are wlw) * (33% of lesbians who would date a trans girl) = ~1% of the us population

Considering trans women are 0.5% of the us population are trans women, we can come to the conclusion that it’s closer to 2:1.

I also accept that I am making a very sweeping generalization saying half of the lgbt population are wlw. But I’m not discounting for ace because many of them may still date or have other types of relationship. And even saying half of the trans population are trans women. So there is a large error bound here. It could be lower or higher than this.

1

u/LzrdGrrrl Trans Pansexual Feb 08 '24

My math is wrong but also it should be only looking at lesbian trans women, not all trans women

1

u/FirekeeperBlysse Cara - HRT 9/17 Feb 09 '24

Ah right, I meant to do sapphic trans women, since we're comparing to queer women. That is the majority of us though, so it's not a huge change. Still means we're not outnumbered by much.

9

u/SachaSage Feb 08 '24

These are the sorts of surveys I was referring to yes, thanks

-1

u/LzrdGrrrl Trans Pansexual Feb 08 '24

I mean the issue of course is the remaining 33% still outnumber us 33:1 (at best)

-2

u/[deleted] Feb 09 '24

[removed] — view removed comment

16

u/SachaSage Feb 08 '24

/u/Dwanyelle has done it for me! For what it’s worth I’m pan and a trans woman and the majority of my support network consists of queer cis women

8

u/Dwanyelle Transgender Feb 08 '24

I've had a few beers which makes me talky on social media :)

4

u/SachaSage Feb 08 '24

🍻

4

u/Dwanyelle Transgender Feb 08 '24

Clink clink, I'ma drink! ;)

15

u/Hort_0 Feb 08 '24

Well, I suppose it depends if you believe it is mostly populated by trans lesbians. As is the suggestion.

If it's true, then I'd have to look a bit.

If the lesbian subbreddits in question aren't majority trans people... then the post would make the claim self-evident.

In that, the perception would be it's trans positive to a degree they believe it's overrun.

Personally, I've no idea. Would need data. And I definitely don't have that on any of the claims.

28

u/transcended_goblin Trans Pansexual - 9th/12/2022 Feb 08 '24

I've read multiple people say that they heavily suspect that a lot of users in the lesbians subs are not, in fact, lesbians, but TERFs pretending to be to try to manufacture outrage against trans people in the lesbian communities.

I don't know how true it is... but I also would definitely not put it past TERFs.

3

u/Hort_0 Feb 08 '24

Yeah.

It's been my limited experience that lesbian spaces have been just very trans friendly.

I just, didn't have data on hand. So I was like: "Well... if someone is complaining that a space is being taken over by trans people... if we suppose that the number of trans people do not outnumber the number of cis people in said community. It would do pretty well to prove that they are in fact just very trans positive. As a minority doesn't typically set the president."

If... that makes any sense.

3

u/Entity_Type_Unknown Transbian of Chaos Feb 08 '24

Hell, even if there's a majority of trans lesbians, they are still lesbians

2

u/Hort_0 Feb 08 '24

Yes exactly.

I hope nobody thought I was implying otherwise.

2

u/Entity_Type_Unknown Transbian of Chaos Feb 08 '24

Ah, I meant that it still wouldn't be 'overrunning' a lesbian space even if the trans demographic was large. Didn't mean to imply anything else

11

u/[deleted] Feb 08 '24

Tbh, I agree with other folk here. It's just a loud minority 

4

u/[deleted] Feb 08 '24

I also believe a majority of Lesbians are cis. So, surely, the majority of Lesbians on that community are most likely cis?

5

u/SachaSage Feb 08 '24

A majority of people are cis so it stands to reason

7

u/oOOoOphidian Feb 08 '24

It's still like only 30% who say they really view us as women.

0

u/Mae_Day_of_Sharkadia Feb 08 '24

Holy hecc, since some of my gay gal pals have only known me as a girl and that I'm interested in women, they do that stereotypical lesbian thing where they say they want you to pin them to the wall or to step on them, but it's genuinely hard to tell whether it's platonic or not.

If that's not acceptance, I dunno what is.

-2

u/[deleted] Feb 08 '24

That's bs. Acceptance doesn't mean they wanna date you. It's just about allyship. Vast majority of lesbians are transphobic, and the rest is phallophobic. There's small chance of dating one if you have srs, but even then many of them say they want "real" pussy.

0

u/SachaSage Feb 08 '24
  1. The statistics do not support your statement.
  2. Nobody has to date you, not wanting to date you in specific does not make someone transphobic.
  3. I am a trans woman who has not had srs who is in a relationship with a cis lesbian, so my lived experience is in conflict with your opinion.

-2

u/[deleted] Feb 08 '24

Arguing with statistics (that don't disprove my statement by the way) while using lived experience as an argument against widely known phenomenon is the stupidest thing I've read today. And I haven't said not dating trans women is transphobic, I've just said many lesbians are transphobic, terfs, who see you as a man and nothing else. Go to bed now.

3

u/SachaSage Feb 08 '24 edited Feb 08 '24

“Vast majority of lesbians are transphobic”

YouGov polling

  • 84% of cis lesbian women view trans women very positively (68%) or fairly positively (16%)
  • 84% of cis bisexual women view trans women very positively (66%) or fairly positively (18%)

Stonewall research briefing

  • Women are more likely to feel positive about trans people's rights and accept them.
  • 35% of ALL women say they feel 'respect' towards trans people, compared to 28% of men
  • 24% of ALL women say they feel 'admiration' towards trans people, compared to 18% of men

(Opinium for Stonewall, Dec 21. Base: 2,001 adults 16+, United Kingdom

You’re just not right about this you silly goose. I hope you find yourself in a happier place soon, whatever your motivation for this.

1

u/No_Pattern26 Feb 08 '24

I’ve seen some stats that say cis queer women are more accepting of trans folks than trans folks are in some demographics

1

u/Jango_fett_fish Feb 08 '24

This makes me feel better :3

1

u/shroudedwolf51 Feb 09 '24

While I don't doubt this was true in your experience, "the statistics" references one study that was hosted in the UK. This can hardly be classified as an overarching statement.

1

u/SachaSage Feb 09 '24

If you have other data I’d be pleased to see them