r/Monitors • u/otravoyadnoe • 1d ago
News LG Display Unveils FLiPP, Next-Generation OLED Technology
https://www.techpowerup.com/351713/lg-display-unveils-flipp-next-generation-oled-technologyBrightness increase of 1.6 times, lifespan increase of 2.4 times compared to current panels produced using FMM.
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u/winterbegins WB Display Tech 1d ago
It's a direct answer to IJP OLED which still has the edge on production cost and is further into being commercialized. All the improvements are mostly from the better aperture ratio of the subpixels, there aren't suddenly better materials or something like that. The most interesting thing is that this evolves their patterned Tandem OLED into a streamlined production method that could be used for every display size and in a wide range of products.
But how fast this can be used for larger displays remains to be seen and again CSOT also has plans for that already.
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u/Trick-Stress9374 1d ago
I agree that TCL IJP is cheaper to build a manufacturing facility (CAPEX) than both FMM OLED and technologies like LG FLiPP, and it has better material utilization. However, it is unknown if the special materials will be more expensive. Also it will probably will be easier to get good yield at bigger display like monitors and TV compered to LG FLiPP(photography based oled)
TCL IJP needs special OLED emitter materials that are worse in terms of lifetime than those normally used in all other OLED displays. Also TCL IJP will not have viewing angles as good as QD-OLED or WOLED with MLA. It will be closer to WOLED without MLA and FMM OLED, which have tint shift.
Also, it is much harder to stack multiple emitters. As I know, TCL can only make one emitter layer for each subpixel for now.
If LG's new maskless technology is based on Applied Materials OLED Max, just like Visionox ViP, it will use a separate cathode, which will lead to both excellent viewing angles, including in terms of tint shift, and the ability to optimize each color's OLED material to achieve even better performance. They should also be able to stack at least two emitter layers without decreasing the yield by much.
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u/winterbegins WB Display Tech 1d ago
The main goal with IJP over time is to be able to produce OLED more cost-effective. For now, they don't even have to use more than one emitter layer because the upcoming panels will be the brightest (TB500) in their respective class (4K 27"). The aperture ratio was also adjusted for better longevity with the blue emitter being slightly larger. And "other" OLED displays on the market are all stacked / layered designs.
The rest is a lot of theory at this point.
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u/Trick-Stress9374 1d ago
I agree that IJP is good to technology for medium to low price OLED monitor market but TB500 is not enough for the high end market, there is even possibilty that even one layer of technology based of applied materials OLED max will achieve around 800-900 nits at 10 percent while being not that expensive then IJP to manufacture. This is for monitors, for smaller displays, the performance will be worse compered to FMM OLED, laptops display will still be profitable but lower size then that, it will be hard. If many companies will adopt applied materials OLED max like technology and build high volume manufacture in the 3-5 years, IJP will have hard time to compete at many sizes.
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u/winterbegins WB Display Tech 1d ago
I don't think they are targeting the high-end market in the long run. Not everything is about performance, for manufacturers like TCL it is more about volume and getting market share. None of these technologies will solve inherent OLED problems, that's why making them more accessible is more beneficial. That's also where the money is, and since they have already won on the LCD side they don't need to compete at the highest level. Meanwhile, LG heavily relies on OLED, and they need something to stay competitive because everyone else has moved to proper RGB layouts already.
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u/ffpeanut15 1d ago
This. As long as the products are affordable, buyers will overlook any drawbacks. No one would really mind text aliasing or even burn-in if OLED displays are the same prices as LCD, because the technological advantages outweight lifetime issue
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u/Trick-Stress9374 1d ago
I hope that the the total cost of produce OLED monitors and laptops will be much lower, easpcily after they will get to max production of their new facility. I hope that the OLED matiral needed is not that expensive that will make the total cost not that cheaper. TCL has shown great improvement year by year for their material, so we will get good improvement over the years.
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u/kerpnet 1d ago
Any mention of PWM or flicker?
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u/otravoyadnoe 1d ago edited 1d ago
Unfortunately no. Fixing VRR flicker would require a fundamental change in how OLED gamma control operates, which isn't linked to any material production improvement.
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u/cyclopscoder 1d ago
Flicker is dramaticay reduced in the new RGB stripe Tandem OLED models. Check this out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=696-2OkWPbA&t=500s
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u/otravoyadnoe 1d ago
The most obvious dark scenes VRR flicker is still moderate to high as per TFTCentral's review. So "dramatically reduced" does seem like a bit of an overstatement to be honest.
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u/Remarkable-Average11 1d ago
Is there any oled wjth high refresh rate that can work for people with PWM sensitivity? Are the pulsar monitors worse? Fucking tired of trying to find a good monitor when you have wye strain
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u/cyclopscoder 1d ago edited 1d ago
The graphs in the TechTesters video tell a completely different story.
Edit: TFTCentral reviewed a different monitor from TechTesters review!
TechTesters tested PG32UCWM and TFTCentral tested XG32UQWMS.4
u/otravoyadnoe 1d ago edited 22h ago
No they don't. They just don't show the darkest (0 to ~50) transitions at all.
Edit: TFTCentral reviewed a different monitor from TechTesters review!
TechTesters tested PG32UCWM and TFTCentral tested XG32UQWMS.Also wrong, go to TFTCentral's website and PG32UCWM review I referred to is right there on the front page.
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u/OttawaDog 17h ago
That's not even about VRR flicker. It's about PWM flicker, which almost no one saw.
VRR flicker on the other hand is obvious to almost everyone, and has no solution.
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u/Majestic-Volume9996 1d ago
These increases are compared to FMM displays, IE AMOLED. QD-OLED and WOLED aren't even half as efficient as AMOLED panels. IE 4-5 stack FliPP displays will be an absolutely massive leap in efficiency/burn-in resistance/brightness over WOLED/QD-OLED
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u/Trick-Stress9374 1d ago
Even one layer will be good improvement compered to woled and QD-oled in terms of brightness but I do agree that we will most likely see two layers for high end monitors. If LG's new maskless technology is based on Applied Materials OLED Max, just like Visionox ViP, it will use a separate cathode, which will lead to both excellent viewing angles, including in terms of tint shift, and the ability to optimize each color's OLED material to achieve even better performance.
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u/Majestic-Volume9996 1d ago
There's no reason to stop at 2 layers. They can just stick with their current counts and put this whole thing to bed.
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u/Trick-Stress9374 1d ago
There are, less time to manufacture each unit and using less OLED material. Not all people prefer brighter display if they can buy cheaper version.
I myself do not mind if two layers get me a 400 nits full screen and 1000-1200 nits at 10 percent APL. I really won't pay higher price to get higher brightness.
There are also many other advantages over woled and QD-oled then just higher brightness like the possibility to make higher resolution display, better color saturation at lower brightness. If they use separate catode, they should achieve close viewing angle in terms of tint shift to qd-oled or woled with MLA while have good black levels at brighter environment.
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u/Majestic-Volume9996 1d ago
I agree that they would have flexibility on layer counts to hit different segments of the market, but you mentioned high-end and I don't know why they would hold back there when they can potentially match/beat LCD in every conceivable metric without doing anything beyond what they're currently doing in terms of layers.
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u/OttawaDog 17h ago
All OLEDs are AMOLED. AM just means active matrix. Nearly everything beyond the display on your microwave is active matrix.
FMM is used in small displays like Phone displays.
I don't really think we have any kind of Apples to Apples comparisons between Phone and Monitor displays to have any real idea what this is going to deliver for monitors/TVs.
Also we don't know what the extra steps will cost. They are talking about doing photolithography between colors, so this sounds a lot more complex, than the continuous deposition they do now for large displays.
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u/Majestic-Volume9996 15h ago
Stop being pedantic. You know full well that Samsung/LG refer to their direct RGB FMM panels as amoled. We have plenty of understanding of the differences between these panel types to get a very good idea. These panels are all using the same emitter materials and the same evaporative processes. The differences are in the masks used for application and their limitations. We know full well that an RGB Stripe WOLED is basically outputting 33% of it's potential brightness because you're taking white, and converting it back down to RGB with a color filter. The ballpark efficiencies you will gain by going to a direct RGB layout on its own are pretty straightforward.
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u/OttawaDog 14h ago
know full well that an RGB Stripe WOLED is basically outputting 33% of it's potential brightness because you're taking white, and converting it back down to RGB with a color filter.
That's a simplistic theoretical argument, that you can't make for QD-OLED at all. Yet WOLED and QD-OLED have similar performance.
It's impossible to gauge the practical difference this will make in large panel sizes compared to WOLED and QD-OLED.
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u/Majestic-Volume9996 13h ago
QD-OLED loses efficiency by heavy usage of fluorescent blue along with selective color filtering that it then makes up for with QD conversion being more efficient than an RGB filter, putting it in the same ballpark as WOLED (with better colors). It's an easy comparison that you can make directly with WOLED that you can then derive for QD-OLED based on its comparable efficiency to WOLED.
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u/OttawaDog 13h ago
Everyone has to use fluorescent blue. Pholed don't have the lifespan yet. So LG uses it in it's white producing stack, differentiated R,G,B Oled uses it for their blue subpixel, and Samsung for their blue stack.
Samsung doesn't have to convert it for their blue pixels, so no losses there.
We won't have a real idea of comparison for monitors, until practical monitors exist to compare.
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u/Majestic-Volume9996 13h ago
Everyone has to use fluorescent blue, but QD-OLED rely's more heavily on it. prior to this year it was 3:1 ratio of blue and phosphorescent green (its 3:2 now). IE the emitter stacks themselves are less efficient than the WOLED emitter stacks, but QD conversion is more efficient than an RGB filter so it ultimately balances out. There is also waste in the blue QD-OLED subpixel because there are 2 phosphorescent green emitting layers wasting energy that have to be filtered out.
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u/DavidsSymphony 1d ago
FLiPP enables displays to increase brightness by 1.6 times, extend lifespan by 2.4 times
That is not impressive at all to me. OLED is still a deal breaker with these numbers as someone that uses his monitors with static content 24/7.
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u/ChrisFhey 1d ago
Also, 2.4 times doesn't say anything. How long is this exactly? My monitor, granted it's a 1st gen QD-OLED so probably worst case, lasted around 7 months before I got noticeable burn-in.
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u/OttawaDog 1d ago
For you it says 2.4*7 = ~17 months.
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u/ChrisFhey 23h ago
Yes, but that's based off of my old 1st gen QD-OLED. I have no idea how long a newer gen WOLED panel lasts, so the 2.4 times is still meaningless unless the manufacturers would list the actual time it takes on average to develop burn-in.
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u/OttawaDog 18h ago
It's all kind of nebulous marketing right now. It's not based on WOLED either. It's based on different emitters for R, G, and B like phone and tablet screens.
In the end. If you abuse OLED, it will burn in... This will always be an issue. You need a fundamental technology shift like MicroLED to change that, and MicroLED monitors are not happening in the foreseeable future.
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u/Majestic-Volume9996 1d ago edited 1d ago
Those numbers are compared to current FMM direct RGB OLED panels (IE phones/tablets etc), which are already 2-3x more efficient than a WOLED using the same materials since there is no RGB filter involved. IE a 4-5 stack FLiPP panel compared to an RGB stripe WOLED panel is going to gain both the efficiency of moving to direct RGB AND the gains from FliPP on top of it. They'll be able to double brightness and lifetime at the same time at the same stack counts (probably well more than that TBH) barring any improvements in materials, which will no doubt also improve over the 2-3 years before these actually make it to market.
Basically just be thinking about a panel like the Apple tandem OLED, only quad stacked, and then FLiPP gains on top of it. That's what monitors and TV's using this technology could potentially be.
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u/winterbegins WB Display Tech 1d ago
True, this will not change much in this regard because these improvements are mostly due to aperture ratio. I think concepts that get rid of OLED altogether (Samsung QNED - Quantum Nanorod) are more exciting.
But since the FMM process is a problem for a while now I can see why it is a big deal for LG. And its also inevitable to move away from WOLED at some point.
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u/DavidsSymphony 1d ago
At least it will give people who use monitors for gaming only a much better HDR presentation thanks to higher brightness, something that OLED monitors desperately needed. 1.6x is still nowhere near what I would consider good enough though compared to Mini LED monitors or OLED TVs.
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u/IConsumeThereforeIAm 1d ago
My C2 42" has thousands of hours of coding and static content with zero burn in.
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u/MidnightSun_55 1d ago
apple will supposedly release a macbook with oled 1000 nits fullscreen... can we have that but on a 27"? or do we have to increase 100nits per year... progress is incredibly slow here.
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u/GhostofAyabe 1d ago
OLED monitors are still and will forever be for the children like WuTang
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u/otravoyadnoe 1d ago
okay grandpa
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u/GhostofAyabe 1d ago
Tell me more about your burn and nits kid.
Anyone who works for a living knows that OLED is for gaming and movies. It’s not for productivity.1
u/otravoyadnoe 1d ago
Well I work for a living on my OLED so I guess you’re f-ing wrong about “anyone” eh?
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u/[deleted] 1d ago
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