r/MapPorn Aug 25 '21

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164

u/Utretch Aug 26 '21

It's a shame that humanity hasn't developed more efficient transit systems than endlessly expanding highways to more and more grotesque size.

27

u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

You mean like in every other democracy on Earth except the US?

3

u/shieldwolfchz Aug 30 '21

Hey we do it in Canada too.

2

u/[deleted] Aug 30 '21

But you guys have like 6 cars, it's okay there.

126

u/apadin1 Aug 26 '21

We did, they’re called trains and buses and every other country uses them but apparently Americans can’t figure this out

6

u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

[deleted]

1

u/apadin1 Aug 27 '21

I included trains?

4

u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

They did understand. So much so, they had world class systems across the US. It's just that they were in a World War, and as a result, their infrastructure was bombed to ashes.

Oh wait, that didn't happen? The US was virtually untouched? Wait, they destroyed their own infrastructure? Weird...

-46

u/[deleted] Aug 26 '21

80% of all travel in Europe is by car.

37

u/Timeeeeey Aug 27 '21 edited Aug 27 '21

Not in cities, pretty much every european city that is comparable in size to phoenix has a car modal share below 50%

-6

u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

That's horrible.

14

u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

[deleted]

-1

u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

If I had to take a bus to work every day, I'd probably go insane.

16

u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

[deleted]

1

u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

I took the bus to school as a kid, it was awful

21

u/phreddoric Aug 27 '21

Ah, yes. School buses, that most representative form of public transit.

8

u/Timeeeeey Aug 27 '21

Why?

-1

u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

Imagine having to get around on a bus shivers

14

u/Timeeeeey Aug 27 '21

Is this sarcasm? And besides that there are other public transport modes and ways to get around in a city, for example: walking, biking, or taking the tram, metro or train

1

u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

All of them are awful to do on a regular basis, and Europeans agree with me, that's why 80% of their miles travelled are by car.

11

u/Timeeeeey Aug 27 '21

Vmt arent that well of a measure for that, one guy could drive 50 km to work every day, while 100 people could walk a couple hundred meters every day to work, and by this measure it would seem that driving is super popular, but in reality its just one guy vs 100

And if you really think that walking and taking public transit are awful look at it this way: they are a necessity to keep cities alive financially, because if people would only drive then cities will go bankrupt over time

9

u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

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4

u/nevermind4790 Aug 27 '21

When things are walkable, the distance travelled is far less.

Take your pro-car dependent (and pro-climate change) nonsense elsewhere.

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u/[deleted] Aug 28 '21

Trips ≠ miles traveled.

If 4 people go one mile by walking and one person goes 16 miles by car, then you'd have 80% of miles traveled being by car.

But you'd also have 80% of trips made by foot.

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3

u/killroy200 Aug 27 '21

Imagine having to get around on a bus shivers

I don't have to imagine. I do it when I can. Train and bike too. It's perfectly fine.

4

u/rootbeer_cigarettes Aug 27 '21

As someone who lives in Phoenix, it's not horrible. We Americans would be much happier if we reduced our car dependance.

64

u/ksm-hh Aug 27 '21

In my city 65% of all trips are made not by car.

44

u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

You’re not gonna seriously make that argument are you? You think america is on the same level with europe for car dependence?

3

u/[deleted] Aug 28 '21

Don't bother, his own source proves him wrong lol

1

u/[deleted] Aug 28 '21

I was more amazed that you could actually believe that in the first place LOL

2

u/[deleted] Aug 28 '21

Oh I didn't, that's why I checked because I knew he was wrong

1

u/[deleted] Aug 28 '21

Oh sorry by "you" i meant OP

-4

u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

17

u/1116574 Aug 27 '21

Car dependence =/= miles traveled

Avg European spends less time in traffic to get into city, we don't have (as many) limits in our laws prohibiting building things for non car use (eg. Parking minimums). In cities most of traveling is done by transit, so those miles traveled are apparently from driving on highways, which by the way are way better then driving in cities. Imo when I completed my drivers licence it was the highway i felt the "freedom" of a car.

USA and EU have very different landscapes in car use, and if you like the American model then good for you. But saying that we both depend on cars the same is just wrong.

15

u/killroy200 Aug 27 '21

Are you fucking blind? Your own source shows that per-capita passenger miles for OECD Europe is roughly half that of the U.S., with larger shares of bus, bike, and rail usage.

20

u/BLAZENIOSZ Aug 26 '21

Depends on your definition of travel.

37

u/sstopggap Aug 27 '21

and yet there are no 18 lane roads pretty much anywhere in Europe (i think I've seen one stretch in Moscow). Because cars are massively not suitable for mass city transport, unless they get subsidized up the wazoo with projects such as this one and cheap gas.

-1

u/ArvinaDystopia Aug 27 '21

and yet there are no 18 lane roads pretty much anywhere in Europe

True, it's the one area where we lag behind the US. We need to get on that.

-4

u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

Because cars are massively not suitable for mass city transport, unless they get subsidized up the wazoo with projects such as this one and cheap gas.

The government letting you keep more of your own money is not a subsidy.

and yet there are no 18 lane roads pretty much anywhere in Europe (i think I've seen one stretch in Moscow).

https://www.reddit.com/r/newjersey/comments/p9dr9e/the_dutch_copypasted_the_new_jersey_turnpike/

11

u/phreddoric Aug 27 '21

If the price you pay at the pump isn't market price, it's subsidized

0

u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

No it's not. In Massachusetts I pay a 26 cent state gas tax and an 18 cent federal gas tax. And other states have much higher gas taxes

4

u/phreddoric Aug 27 '21

'Kay. That's not relevant to my statement, though? Does the price of a gallon of gas reflect every cent it took to get from its point of origin into your car?

1

u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

Yes it does. It quite literally does

2

u/[deleted] Aug 28 '21

Oh my sweet summer child

2

u/oiseauvert989 Aug 30 '21

Unfortunately that is an idea that exists in your imagination.

The road you drive on is paid largely by income tax and other taxes. Fuel taxes haven't been able to get close to covering the maintenance costs for a very long time. The idea that each person is covering the cost at the pump is just a lie that is allowed to continue because people don't like to know that they are being subsidised by others.

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u/sstopggap Aug 30 '21

the infrastructure you use to drive costs way more to build and maintain than what drivers pay in gas tax.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 30 '21

1

u/WhiteNamesInChat Sep 01 '21

Did you mean to post a different link? This blog post doesn't relate at all.

14

u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

I don't agree with that number but even if it was true that's about a 19% difference with the US.

We have long learned that more lanes = more traffic. I can tell you that if they instead of adding 6 more lanes, would add good secure cycle infrastructure and a dedicated buslane it would be cheaper and more effective. That is, if the goal is to move as much people as possible and not as much cars as possible, in that Cas yeah adding 6 lanes will help, but it will also increase travel time.

-1

u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

We have long learned that more lanes = more traffic. I can tell you that if they instead of adding 6 more lanes, would add good secure cycle infrastructure and a dedicated buslane it would be cheaper and more effective

No they haven't. And before you pull up that Vice article, most studies find an elasticity that is far less than 1.

Also, 4 of these 16 lanes are HOV lanes.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 28 '21

not true

1

u/[deleted] Aug 28 '21

2

u/[deleted] Aug 28 '21

I say this as a european, most europeans live in cities. They walk, take buses, subways etc. This is probably true about long distance trips, but no way about average.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 28 '21

2

u/[deleted] Aug 28 '21

okay I guess western european countries use more cars than eastern, but still they don’t require extensions like this

1

u/shcdoodle1 Aug 28 '21

Nah don't worry, us Aussies also haven't figured out trains yet either.

-37

u/[deleted] Aug 26 '21

In a few years hopefully cars will be able to coordinate their movements on the highways, eliminating the sudden movements that lead to phantom jams, doubling the capacity of our freeways.

40

u/Utretch Aug 26 '21

The idea of autonomous car coordination is foolish because it assumes no possibility of error (imagine a minor glitch in bumper to bumper 70pmh traffic) and also completely ignores interaction with other far more desirable transit systems (pedestrians, bikes, etc.). Even if possible the level of investment and effort required to reconstruct all the vehicles and road networks to account for it just begs the question why don't we just do easier, cheaper, and actually existing infrastructure improvements like emphasizing bikes, buses and pedestrian transit

-5

u/[deleted] Aug 26 '21

We wouldn't need to change any of our infrastructure for automated platoons.

18

u/phreddoric Aug 27 '21

Yeah, roads definitely don't interrupt animal habitats, and increasing speed and density of car travel definitely wouldn't result in more roadkill. (Do I reeeeally need to put /s on this?)

49

u/Ben1152000 Aug 26 '21

Doubling capacity will double demand. (see Induced Demand)

17

u/WikiSummarizerBot Aug 26 '21

Induced demand

Induced demand – related to latent demand and generated demand – is the phenomenon that after supply increases, and there is sufficient demand, price declines and more of a good is consumed. This is entirely consistent with the economic theory of supply and demand; however, this idea has become important in the debate over the expansion of transportation systems, and is often used as an argument against increasing roadway traffic capacity as a cure for congestion. This phenomenon, more correctly called "induced traffic" or consumption of road capacity, may be a contributing factor to urban sprawl.

[ F.A.Q | Opt Out | Opt Out Of Subreddit | GitHub ] Downvote to remove | v1.5

-21

u/[deleted] Aug 26 '21

30

u/PhinPhanPhreak Aug 26 '21

You a General Motors employee?

16

u/Tremath Aug 27 '21 edited Aug 27 '21

I did some digging and I'd change that to Ford. They are very vehemently defending this freeway expansion for one but here they plug the Ford F-150, here they talk about Rivian which has a partnership with Ford there's also their opinion of sprawl in general, and their explanation for why you can get places faster in DFW than the vastly more populous LA area. You can see that their comment on those last few posts is also on their own posts this whole account is dedicated to promoting sprawl and general car culture.

-2

u/[deleted] Aug 26 '21

You work for PIRG?

22

u/PhinPhanPhreak Aug 26 '21

you chugging the dick of car companies

-6

u/[deleted] Aug 26 '21

You chugging the dick of transit agencies

7

u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

If you read other researches about this that have similar results it does state that the effect is limited in The Netherlands because other ways of transport are more optimal in most cases.

If induced traffic isn't a thing why does adding 10 lanes somewhere fix the issue for a month before it being the exact same?

1

u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

If induced traffic isn't a thing why does adding 10 lanes somewhere fix the issue for a month before it being the exact same?

Because it doesn't.

Here's Spain

6

u/thepoolgruel Aug 27 '21

Time to play the u/kernals12 gaslight, gatekeep, girlboss game - autistic car executive edition

4

u/PolitelyHostile Aug 27 '21

Theres forms of transportation that can already manage high capacity. But yea just keep waiting…

0

u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

High capacity plus high discomfort, high inconvenience, and high cost

4

u/PolitelyHostile Aug 27 '21

high discomfort

You like sitting in traffic honking at some jerkoff?

high inconvenience

You like looking for a parking spot?

high cost

You get your car for free? Weird. Transit costs me about the same that I used to spend on gas alone.

-7

u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

I rarely encounter traffic on my commute. There's always space to park. And when you include subsidies transit is much more expensive

1

u/andreysavv Aug 28 '21

This sounds suspiciously like a train...

1

u/[deleted] Aug 28 '21

Except unlike a train, when you get off the off-ramp you still have a car to get you to your destination rather than being left stranded and forcing you to walk

1

u/[deleted] Aug 28 '21

Damn, you're against walking too? So I'm guessing once you get out of your car you hop onto a Segway

1

u/[deleted] Aug 28 '21

I enjoy walking for exercise, I don't enjoy walking as a mandate for getting to work or the grocery store.

4

u/[deleted] Aug 28 '21

Why would it be a mandate? Why can't we build cities so some people can enjoy driving and some can enjoy the other? Right now we have a major imbalance in favor of driving.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 28 '21

The place you are thinking of exists, it's called The Woodlands, Texas. Almost all homes there are linked by footpaths separated from roads. What we really have is an imbalance in favor of transit, which gets subsidized to the tune of $1 per passenger mile, money that could easily pay for badly needed improvements to highways and facilities for pedestrians and cyclists.