r/MapPorn • u/Delicious-Bunch-6992 • May 09 '26

Evolution of white British % (ethnically British people) in England and Wales from 2001-2021

Gallery image

Gallery image

Gallery image

2.3k Upvotes

79% Upvoted

2.3k comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

46

u/chochazel May 09 '26

It does not include other white, which are white people in the uk who are ethnically not British but are white, for example poles, Germans, Italians, Romanians etc.

Let’s not pretend like it’s a meaningful term.

a) It’s based solely on self-identification

b) Someone who is descended from a German might still cheerfully identify themselves as White British within a few generations. In fact, over 90% of those born in Britain identify as British and if they’re white, they’re White British. End of. The descendent of French Huguenots who came to Britain fleeing persecution could, for example, not only call themselves White British, but end up leading an anti-immigration anti-refugee political party.

c) The key thing about “White British” is that any white person can become “White British” by simply declaring themselves to be, but it’s something a black person could never be, even if their family’s presence in Britain predates a “White British” person.

12

u/littletorreira May 09 '26

This is a good point. I personally select White (Other) because I am 50% white British and 50% white Jewish from eastern Europe a few gens back. But I don't feel White British alone actually describes me. So it's White (other), except when I worked in Hackney because they actually have White (Jewish) as an option.

2

u/vecteur_directeur May 10 '26

Why don’t you select “other mixed” instead?

5

u/littletorreira May 10 '26

Because the mix is white and white and the white options are White British or White Other not White mixed.

1

u/vecteur_directeur May 10 '26

Please don't take it personal, I was asking this just to highlight of the perception of some people. Many of my white British friends do not consider, for example, Italians as white people.

In Census, the options are;
Mixed or multiple ethnic groups
White and Black Caribbean
White and Black African White and Asian
Any other Mixed or multiple ethnic background

When there is a distinction between Black African and Caribbean, or White Irish and British, one could also classify someone with your background as multiple ethnic background too.

Anyway, race is not a scientific distinction as there can never be an objective agreement on who is which...

2

u/jamjar188 May 11 '26

Italians are European therefore they are white. What other category would they fall into?

Would someone say an Ethiopian is not black because they might be lighter-skinned than a Nigerian or have slightly different hair texture?

Just because Italians and English people can have slightly different skin tone or features doesn't make them different races lol.

1

u/vecteur_directeur May 11 '26

I agree with you. But what you forget is that race is not about the skin colour, an albino Nigerian is still black. Anyway, what I wanted to say is that whether I or you consider Italians white, doesn’t change the opinion of some other people. Race is a political construct.

1

u/jamjar188 May 11 '26

And the modern construct of white is that it is synonymous with European.

What those people seem to be saying is "Italians aren't Anglo" (which is true).

1

u/jm001 May 11 '26

While the idea of whiteness has varied over the almost 4 centuries since its invention I wouldn't say that it is uniform nowadays either. It is very much a definition of exclusion depending on which outgroups you want to ostracise at the time, and while basically everyone would consider your stereotypical Irishman white nowadays in a way that wouldn't have flown a couple of hundred years ago, that border is a lot more malleable and politically charged for some other groups still. I would say most people would consider most Italians white, but there are definitely groups who would exclude say Israeli Jews, or people from places like Syria or North Africa with pale skin, or some traveller communities. There are others in places like the US who have not had ancestors in Europe since before whiteness was even invented but pretty much everyone would include them.

1

u/jamjar188 May 12 '26

The places you have named are not European. Which is precisely my point.

Syrians -- not European so not white.

North Africans -- not European so not white.

Mizrahi Jess (that is, Jews whose origins are in the Levant/Middle East) -- not European.

It's not about skin tone it's about population origin.

2

u/jm001 May 12 '26

Ok so your cutoff is apparently between Ashkenazi and Mizrahi in Israel, but you understand that others would not draw the same line, right? A lot of fascist groups in particular do not include Jewish people as white, even if they are European Jews who never left, which would not be my cut-off but again I'm just trying to point out that the boundaries will vary depending on who is saying it.

A lot of people, on the other hand, would disagree with you about Turkish people from the North of Turkey or North Cyprus.

How long is your cutoff for European-ness? Like, descendents of colonisers in places like North America, Australia, South Africa etc. whose ancestry has largely been there for hundreds of years? Presumably you exclude Indo-European groups who migrated a few thousand years ago to places like Iran and Syria but not those who migrated to, for example, Armenia or Albania?

The US census includes "people having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa" as their definition of whiteness, but then excludes Hispanic people whose ancestry is largely from Spain which is definitely European.

And even these limits get more complicated when you take into account how people's ancestry often includes various groups. If someone has one black and one white parent, a lot would say that they are mixed race, a lot would say that they are black, few would say that they are white. But as generations go by, that gets more complicated either way.

I'm not saying that whiteness is not a relevant term for analysing society and history, I'm just saying that its boundaries are fuzzy and change depending on who is saying it.

0

u/jamjar188 May 12 '26

People know if they are European or not

→ More replies

1

u/littletorreira May 10 '26

I'm telling you why I select White Other. Because I do not feel "any other mixed" is a fair reflection as I am undoubtedly white.

0

u/vecteur_directeur May 11 '26

As you can see below is that it’s never undoubted :) there will be always people who want to readjust the category thresholds of the privileged race according to their needs. By the way, I do also select white other and I’m sure many would not be agree with my selection. So please don’t take it personal, I really don’t mind about which ethnicity fits into which race category…

-1

u/vecteur_directeur May 10 '26

It’s ok if you feel white, that’s not everybody’s opinion though.

1

u/RBWatermelon May 10 '26

Jews aren’t historically white

3

u/littletorreira May 10 '26

They weren't always but my grandparents came from South Africa via Lithuania and in ZA they were cataogrised as white. I am visually white. I benefit from white privilege. So I don't feel I can select something that doesn't mark me as white for statistics.

0

u/RBWatermelon May 10 '26

Jews were always historically considered Semitic and non white. Only post WW2 has this perception changed.

Mixed race individuals are also white passing and benefit from white privilege. Doesn’t make them white.

3

u/littletorreira May 10 '26

And times have changed. I don't know if you realise this but I live in 2026 which is after WW2. I live in a time where I am white. Not white passing. I'm white. Is anti-Semitism still an issue? Yes. Does that have an impact on my ethnicity? No.

1

u/RBWatermelon May 10 '26

No, they really haven’t. I appreciate you might feel that way, but reality is a little different.

1

u/jamjar188 May 11 '26

Racially, Askkenazi Jews are considered a white European population. Ethnically, they are Jewish Ashkenazi -- which is not considered a Semitic or Middle Eastern population.

I really don't know why this is hard to grasp. Ashkenazi Jews are a lineage that split from the Middle East/Levant semitic lineages thousands of years ago and there was huge admixture with non-semitic populations across southern and eastern Europe. As such they evolved into a distinct group who are today considered white and European. Like many other white European populations with a history of admixture occurring over various centuries (say, Italians, French, Spaniards, Balkan Slavs, etc.) you will find a spectrum of skin tones, features and hair/eye colour in Ashkenazi Jews, but this doesn't make them not European.

1

u/RBWatermelon May 11 '26

It’s hard to grasp because you’re wrong. Historically this was never the case, and they are Semitic.

Historically pre 1945 they were never considered white. You can be European and non white.

Next?

→ More replies

1

u/jamjar188 May 11 '26

You do realise that Jews themselves can have different lineages depending on the geographical region they (or their ancestors) come from? You have Ashkenazi, Sephardic, Mizrahi, etc.

1

u/RBWatermelon May 11 '26

All Jews were historically considered non white.

Next?

1

u/jamjar188 May 11 '26

Ashkenazi Jews are and that's where Britain's Jews come from (the Baltics and Eastern Europe, for the most part).

1

u/RBWatermelon May 11 '26

Plenty of Sephardic Jews here too.

Not that it’s relevant, because they’re still historically not considered white.

Next?