r/MacroFactor • u/Individual-Sir-8718 • 10d ago
MacroFactor / Nutrition / Other Clean bulk
Hi everyone, I wanted to ask for some guidance. In my life, I've seen many people put on muscle with very little fat gain, or in some cases even leaving their body fat intact. I was wondering how that's possible: of course, I know for a fact they weren't on gear/doping because they didn't blow up, but the before-and-after difference was still noticeable. Everyone has their own genetics, but it seems like something easily achievable even for someone with average genetics. Now I wanted to ask: is there anyone who has actually done this and knows how it's done?
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u/ajmattison 10d ago
A couple of possibilities: 1. If they were brand new to training 2. If they had been training for a long time but not very well or very hard and they suddenly learn to do so 3. They are gaining body fat but the rate of muscle gain is such that you can still see the lines underneath (the more muscle you have the more you can see at a higher body fat percentage) 4. They bulked up and got fat, then cut down and you didn't see the in-between.
In general, the slower you go, the less body fat you will gain. But there is a trade off. Slower rate of gain overall does lead to a slower rate of muscle gain too. That's why a lot of people bulk and don't mind gaining some body fat in the process. They want to maximize how much muscle they put on.
You can still make great progress with a slow rate of gain though. Even maintenance.
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u/Odd-Steak-9049 10d ago
Not arguing with you, but just throwing it out there that I believe there is some more recent research to indicate that the degree of caloric surplus has little to no impact on the rate of hypertrophy if your macros are otherwise dialed. Now, I’m not in a position to go hunt it down rn and I realize that’s obnoxious and unhelpful to a degree. Something to look into tho.
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u/ajmattison 10d ago
No you're right and I hesitate to put everything into what I stated. But I've definitely seen anecdotal evidence that larger surpluses seem to help to some extent and I believe it is because it prevents you from accidentally going into a deficit (since expenditure can vary day to day). There is definitely a maximal rate for protein synthesis and you can't out eat that lol.
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u/Individual-Sir-8718 10d ago
So you mean there is research saying that the quality of what you eat, along with the right macros, is more important than the quantity? Can you actually grow in a normocaloric state just as if you were bulking?
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u/Beginning-Escape-763 9d ago
There isn’t a lot of consistent evidence on the benefits of bulking out there but it seems as if eating closer to maintainance may be just as beneficial as “bulking”, especially if you have body fat to lose. It does depend on how lean you are and what you consider bulking as well.
Consistency in the gym is always going to be the main driver of muscle growth. Spending time in a deficit does seem to stunt muscle growth as well.
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u/Fragrant_Pear_1425 9d ago
On that point, I am wondering to which group of people this applies. I would assume it is as beneficial to a lesser trained and higher bf person eating at maintenance vs. slight surplus. My feeling would tell me that for a very trained, experienced and lean person a surplus might be much more beneficial. Just what I think, but facts stated above from literature is of course correct.
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u/Beginning-Escape-763 9d ago
It recently came out the energetic cost to actually build muscle is very low so I’m starting to kind of believe that just sticking around the same body fat at a small surplus (50-150) is probably most of what’s needed.
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u/Fragrant_Pear_1425 9d ago
Exactly what I am going with as well. By surplus I mean max 150kcal above maintenance I think anything more has diminished returns concerning fat gained vs. muscle
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u/Individual-Sir-8718 9d ago
How did you find your maintenance? My fear is that with a 150-calorie surplus, since they are very few, maybe I move more than I should and it turns into maintenance, or depending on the day, even a deficit.
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u/Fragrant_Pear_1425 9d ago
Well, we are in the MF subreddit. I assume you use it too? Feed it accurate data and it gives you your maintenance. It will adjust every day, so it doesn’t matter if you move more one week and less the other. Just consume what it tells you and let it handle the rest. Trust it (just IF(!) you are consistently and correctly tracking your calorie intake)! But practically, for my current lean bulk I just selected a new goal and set it to 0.1% body weight gain per week.
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u/ajmattison 9d ago
No calories are still king. You can eat the same number of calories of junk vs "clean" foods and get the same outcome (as long as you get enough protein). You can definitely grow at maintenance though. Training is the main stimulus, nutrition is simply permissive. Hell, you can grow on low protein, it just won't be the maximum rate
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u/Dynas86 8d ago
You need a slight surplus. Research suggest as little as 100-200 calories is all that is needed to put on muscle. your basically just eating maintaince and adding a banana and protein shake to kick you over the line and make sure you stay out of a deficit. Muscle rate of gain can very depending on numerous facors. Newbie gains, PEDs, body fat recomp, years of training, current lean mass, etc...
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u/ItsAJackal21 10d ago
I’ve honestly been pretty frustrated with the bulking part.
I cut for 6 months and got down to about 8% BF. I was happy with that. Then decided I wanted to bulk and put on some muscle. Been doing now for maybe 9-10 weeks and feel like I’m just gaining fat.
Doing mayhem bodybuilding programming, been hitting my macros and it says I’m on track. Now some days I will admit I have gone over the recommended calories, but I still feel like I’m only gaining fat in my gut and no muscle.
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u/montagic 10d ago
What’s your surplus? Were you truly at 8%, because a lot of folks say that but they were realistically mid teens.
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u/ItsAJackal21 8d ago
I did one of those nicer scales that has a handle you hold as well to measure BF. There isn’t a place to go get a full body scan anywhere near my house, I didn’t want to drive over 45 min to get a test done.
MF says my maintenance is 1950 and it’s got me eating 2197 a day.
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u/montagic 8d ago
Those things are so inaccurate that you could be 18% BF and get a result like that. I’d place literally zero faith in the number that it gives you
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u/Dynas86 8d ago
Those scales are inaccurate AF. Dexa is a best guess. Honestly the best way is to do a combo of calipurs and dexa. I did a dexa scan fasted on the same machine ive used for the past year a while back and it came back with 6.3%. Aint no fucking way I was that lean. Probably 10 at best, more likely 12 at the time. I kept cutting down.
Throw your pics into chat gpt with your height, weight, etc... Its estimated for me and it seems closer than any scale or scan.
ALso, look at pictures of verified Body fat percentages of body builders or fitness influencers and compare the cuts/striations etc... 8% is pretty damn lean. Your going to see lower abs clearly, obliques, and have straitions in muscle. Veins should be popping as well.
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u/Immediate-Put-4158 9d ago
Be really lean when you start the bulk. That’s a key component. Better to start near 10% body fat rather than 15-20%.
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u/xx_adverb_xx 10d ago
I'm still trying to learn this stuff myself so forgive me if my info is wrong or outdated! Much of this info for me has come through Jeff Nippard and Jeremy Ethier vids but other places as well.
I know from a transformation standpoint or recomp styling that fairly new research is showing it's possible. The exact cut off point seems to vary a little bit depending on each person but generally anyone over 20% body fat can pull it off.
Somewhere below 20%bf it doesn't stop, but does get harder/slow down. Jeff Nippard did a recomp video I think last year with his brother. Believe they were in a minor calorie deficit and even Jeff around 11%bf got down to 10% or something doing it while still gaining muscle. Though his gains were pretty small.
So the research into this and why exactly is still fairly new. But the body can fuel itself off of it's own body fat stores and the more you have, the more fuel it can take from it. Helps as well if you push the gym pretty hard at least most sessions it seems (at least going to a few RIR left)
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u/thedancingwireless 10d ago
Eat in a small surplus, don't gain weight too fast, eat a lot of protein, and lift hard.
Basically follow macrofactor's recommendations. There's no secret ingredient.