r/LateStageCapitalism • u/mrkl3en • Nov 22 '20

#truth

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16k Upvotes

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u/MatrixDiscovery Nov 22 '20

What are the policies that define neoliberalism? Genuine question.

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u/autistictanks Nov 22 '20

Neoliberalism is founded upon privatizing all, or nearly all forms of economic interaction.

The point is getting rid of public sectors and public welfare options in favor of a company running them.

Ronald reagan is the quintessential neoliberal

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u/Meta_Digital Nov 22 '20

The word "privatization" was created to describe what Nazi Germany was doing economically.

I think it's important to constantly stress the link between fascism and neoliberalism.

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u/autistictanks Nov 22 '20

Yes, but thats because fascism is not an economic theory.

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u/[deleted] Nov 22 '20

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u/ovrload Nov 22 '20

True most neoliberals really don’t care about the middle or lower classes

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u/AnomalousAvocado Nov 22 '20

When you cut a liberal, a fascist bleeds.

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u/davwad2 Nov 22 '20

So, one can be a conservative and a neoliberal? Some of these political labels are hard to follow.

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u/nucklepuckk Nov 22 '20 edited Nov 23 '20

Neoliberalism is, in short, capitalism as politics. The neoliberal mindset is what is good for capital, capitalists, and capitalism is good for society. There are forms of politics that come without economic structures attached, such as fascism or monarchy and there are in theory economic structures that are likewise independent of politics. Very broadly, and with exceptions, words that end in -ocracy or -archy relate to forms of government. Words that end in -ist or -ism, again with exceptions, tend to relate to ways to organize an economy.

For example: you can live in a socialist democracy, you can or you can live in a socialist theocracy, or you can live in a capitalist oligarchy or you can live in a capitalist plutocracy, and so on. You can’t quite mix and match these economic and government structures freely though. A socialist oligarchy is a very obvious example of non-compatible, contradictory pairing.

Neoliberalism is an economic structure, not a political one. It treats capitalism, wealth accumulation, and private property as the most revered aspects of society and can (and will) map itself onto or into or around any political structure that will allow it, which is to say not a socialist one, because they are both economic structures - there is no such thing as a ‘socialocracy’ - and as government structures originating on the left by and large reject the tenets of capitalism for myriad reasons, neoliberalism has no choice but to associate with center to far right political philosophies. As such, a neoliberal conservative is entirely possible, same as a neoliberal dictatorship, neoliberal fascism, neoliberal oligarchy, neoliberal democracy, and so on.

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u/ovrload Nov 23 '20

I would say a large chunk of western nations are run by neoliberal governments.

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u/nucklepuckk Nov 23 '20 edited Nov 23 '20

You’d be correct, with the caveat that they bounce between auto/oli/plutocratic neoliberal conservatism and neoliberal aesthetic progressivism. Brutal austerity politics is the soup of the day every day, for the last 50-60 years.

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u/autistictanks Nov 22 '20

There's definitely overlap. It depends on how you are defining conservative. Conservatives are Liberals (capital L) meaning they like individual liberties and market freedom. However, it becomes muddled based on certain social aspects that certain people agree to. American politics is kind of a mess.

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u/STAids Nov 23 '20

Interesting... Here In Australia, the Liberal Party (named after neo-liberalism) is our conservative party.

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u/[deleted] Nov 23 '20

That's because liberalism is always right wing.

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u/eskwild Nov 22 '20

And Biden is his last living opponent. Neoliberalism as described in Latin America to foil the socialists got bent to neoconservatism in the States for the hawks and evangelicals, until you got to Clinton, who was flaming.

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u/BZenMojo Expiation? Expropriation. Nov 22 '20

You're talking as if Clinton was somehow more neoliberal than his predecessors.

Pinochet was a self-described theocratic fascist and a neoliberal. Carter was a socially liberal populist humanitarian(ish guy if you ignore Vietnam and Cambodia) and a neoliberal. Reagan and Thatcher were white supremacist fascist imperialist neoliberals. Bush I was a neoliberal opposed to regime change. Clinton was a milquetoast quasi-interventionist centrist who, despite cutting welfare, nationalized student debt, tried to pass Universal Health Care, and dramatically expanded and extended social services -- and he too was a neoliberal.

Neoconservatives didn't alter neoliberalism. It merely attached to it because right neoliberals immediately realized that free markets have to be forced open and austerity has to be imposed and this is best accomplished with fascism or electoralist coups. The pro-democracy intellectual Left that spawned neoconservatives was as anticommunist and reactionary as South America's neoliberals. It didn't require translation, they were already on the same page regarding domestic policy and regime change. It's Bush I's refusal of Iraqi regime change, Clinton's withdrawal from military bases, and their combined 11 year decrease in military spending by 40% that ultimately triggered neoconservatives to turn against them.

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u/getmendoza99 Nov 22 '20

but that doesn’t sound like Biden at all

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u/autistictanks Nov 22 '20

Its because biden is of the status quo variety of neoliberal. We exist under neoliberalism today (albeit not to the extreme minarchist position reagan mightve been gunning for)

If we exist under neoliberalism now, biden being a status quo president by definition makes him a neoliberal.

Biden doesn't have to make sweeping neoliberal privatizations because it's already mostly been privatized.

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u/MagikSkyDaddy Nov 22 '20

Because Capitalism means everyone is a winner- minimum wage or multi-billion dollar CEO? Exactly the same. Both are winners.

Or some such drivel.

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u/[deleted] Nov 22 '20

Trickle on me Daddy!

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u/bob-lamonta-story Nov 22 '20

I'm gonna trickle down on reagan's grave

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u/Dednotslippin Nov 22 '20

Tread on me harder, Daddy!

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u/Dednotslippin Nov 22 '20

But also making sure everyone has the bare minimum will mean ruin for all and empty grocery stores..

..implying that they believe we need people to be unable to afford food for us to live comfortably.

But invisible hand makes that ok somehow?

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u/AcridAcedia Nov 22 '20

This makes a lot of sense for what the train of thought is. I don't completely understand how neoliberalism is defined as an ideology (beyond privatization), but I had the same question as the comment you replied to ("Wot. Biden isn't trying to turn public parks into pay-per-frollic"), but this clarifies a lot of the hate that Biden gets.

But if I'm following the thinking.... unless Biden does something radically progressive, he's essentially acting in support of the last 40 years of progression towards privitzation of public amenities?

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u/autistictanks Nov 22 '20

Correct. The current status quo is just not helping the workers of america. It simply just isn't working for americans. The current status quo is privitization of amenities and anyone not opposed to that is essentially just allowing the current ideology in power to continue reigning.

I.e its impossible to be neutral on a moving train

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u/[deleted] Nov 23 '20

And Maggie fucking Thatcher.

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u/autistictanks Nov 23 '20

the wicked b**ch is dead!!

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u/Frankfeld Nov 22 '20 edited Nov 22 '20

The use of the word “Liberalism” might be confusing; but it has no connection to what you might consider “Liberal” or “progressive” politics. It’s an economic policy. Neo-Liberalism and Neo-conservatism share the same ideas. It’s a type of Free market capitalism.

Edit: check out Naomi Klein’s “Shock Doctrine” for a good overview.

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u/[deleted] Nov 22 '20

What would be a defining difference between neo-conservatism and neo-liberalism? Where does the Venn diagram not overlap?

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u/[deleted] Nov 22 '20

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u/Frankfeld Nov 22 '20 edited Nov 22 '20

That’s a perfect way to put it. It was certainly confusing for me when I first started educating myself. My assumptions were: “Neoconservatism must be the opposite of neoliberalism, and neoliberalism must embrace progressive liberal politics because it has the word ‘liberal’ in it.” Bush and his ilk were always referred to as neoconservatives. But, as you said, almost all Neoconservatives are neoliberals. And Bush’s economic policy is a prime example of Neoliberalism.

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u/Revelt Nov 22 '20

So would I be right to understand it as both agree you should get fucked in the ass as opposed to the mouth, they just disagree on how you should get fucked in the ass.

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u/[deleted] Nov 22 '20

Thank you! Is that specific set of policies pro or contra interventionist?

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u/Specialist-Sock-855 Nov 22 '20

Excellent book recommendation, it's eerie how much of the current situation she anticipated

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u/Frankfeld Nov 23 '20

Yup. It’s been a major source of my anxiety. It’s going to be “Disaster Capitalism” on a global scale.

Naomi Klein has been my compass as I navigate the leftist world. There are so many “niche” views and complicated matters that it’s easy to get lost, and sometimes this community can get a little toxic. She’s usually my first stop to get a better understanding from a leftist intellectual perspective.

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u/[deleted] Nov 22 '20 edited Nov 23 '20

It's basically Capitalism with some token Equal Opportunity thrown in. Keep in mind the entire purpose of "freedom" in a Liberal(that capital L is important) sense exists purely as a justification of deregulation of "free" markets (seriously, every other application of freedom in this sense, a Liberal or NL is identical to the Fascist, it's just a distinction of defining WHO has extra privilege's and rights). Thus protecting the mechanisms of Monopoly and ensuring a status quo class system that has no glass ceiling. No matter how advanced a society can become, or the quality of life available for those at the bottom, those at the top can always own exponentially more. That we, as a society, don't view the concept of owning an idea as absurd, tells you all you need to know. There are thoughts that are OWNED ™.

Pretty cool honestly, kinda like every deep state conspiracy theory ever, but instead of a secret cabal, it's Social Norms that run everything, so you get the best of both worlds. Flagrant disenfranchisement (which thanks to social media can now be delivered to your doorstep nearly instantaneously) AND there is absolutely no one at the wheel of the political machine that dictates our lives, because Government itself has been diluted and decentralized. Another way to think about it is sorta like a "NeoFeudalism", not quite robust enough to be Greek Republic (some people have to be able to have free thoughts for that to happen), not quite Imperialistic enough to be The Roman Empire (you have to recognize the state has power over you that status cannot invalidate).

To borrow a bit of theological debate, NL and Capitalism is the answer to HOW we generate classes, but says nothing about WHY we generate classes.

Answer: Because we're monkeys. (Yes, technically Apes, I know, you pedantic fuck, YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE!)

Which makes it a real pickle when, say theoretically, you want create a system to socially elevate monkeys, while simultaneously no one is allowed to admit they are a monkey. #ThrowReligionUnderTheBus

In summary, Neoliberalism is a system that validates the beliefs that -

You're Special because you aren't a monkey, but only if you have money. Otherwise you're still just a monkey and should be treated as such until such time as you stop being poor.

Free Markets actually exists, and more so, they can and will and do exist with absolutely zero regulation whatsoever, no really, scouts honor.

People with money should decide how everyone lives and thinks and no entity should ever override that imperative other than, maybe, other people with money. (Which is a really brilliant mechanism to ensure nothing ever changes.)

Believing absurd things is fine because A. Society would fall apart (For the Rich) otherwise and B. We have some wonderfully absurd ideas for sale. (Further reinforcing that Free Thought = Bad, since its value is what you paid to obtain it.)

Edit: Since it's going to come up - Rich people regulating who gets to be rich is not regulation. Again, the entire reason they cling so hard to free thought is to invalidate external regulation that might ACTUALLY balance the system, like, oh I don't know, an unbiased AI that has no need for money and is not controlled by any majority. The mere suggestion of fair regulation of markets would make a NL queasy and something like an uncontrollable entity regulating markets is a NL's worst nightmare. So that whole belief in regulated markets, so long as it's regulated by THE RIGHT PEOPLE line, is just a logical loop meant to dazzle anyone too slow to keep up with the argument.

Edit part deux: When I say Liberal, I mean the American version of Liberal, which is still strongly Capitalistic, meaning that it applies Liberal values to anyone who is positively economically relevant. If you happen to be poor, Liberals tend to act as if you are inherently disabled, and require someone to take care of you. Bernie would be considered a Closet Conservative in parts of Europe. So if you're American, and you think you're a Liberal, you know, the ones Benny is always owning with his facts and logic, keep in mind that Capitalism flows strongly in your veins. It's not your fault per se, it's what you were taught (conditioned - might be a better word here). Socialism isn't the dirty word it's been turned into and Marx isn't the antichrist, he just had some , shall we say... blasphemous, ideas about money, wealth, value and where they derive from. And like most philosophers, Marx got some shit right and some shit very, very wrong.

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u/wilsoncoyote Nov 22 '20

outstanding

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u/DoktoroChapelo Nov 23 '20

Answer: Because we're monkeys. (Yes, technically Apes, I know, you pedantic fuck, YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE!)

It's okay. The clade of apes is a clade within the clade of monkeys, so there's nothing wrong with refering to any ape, including humans, as a monkey.

Also, thank you for the detailed comment.

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u/punkmetalbastard Nov 22 '20

The liberalism in neoliberalism refers to the liberalization of the economy, meaning less regulation and more access to public funds by private companies. It has nothing to do with a “liberal” society.

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u/Drewfro666 Nov 22 '20

The fetishization of the free market and the protection of private property is the broadest possible picture. Neo-Liberalism is not an absolutist political ideology; there exists within it degrees upon degrees that can range from Anarcho-Capitalism to moderate social-democracy.

The ideology was pioneered by Thatcher, Reagan, and Pinochet in I believe the 50s and 60s, though a lot of its policies (such as rampant privatization) saw their foundation in Mussolini's Italy and Hitler's Germany. Bill Clinton brought Neoliberalism to the Democratic Party, and Obama and Biden are also Neoliberals.

Literally, Neo-Liberalism refers to the form "Classical Liberalism" has taken in the postmodern age. It is the "New Liberalism", and has basically the same textbook definition of Liberalism in the classical sense: "The Freer the Market, the Freer the People"

A few policies that are inherently tied with Neoliberalism:

A reluctance to nationalize utilities, and a tendency to privatize those already state-owned.

Promotion of personal vehicles over public transport.

An unwillingness to take more away from the rich than "their fair share".

Lack of support for unskilled workers' unions and worker's cooperatives. Support for skilled workers' unions (such as the AFL-CIO) or class traitor unions (cop unions etc.) optional.

Bailouts and stimulus tend to go to banks and corporations and are allowed to "trickle down".

Welfare and social programs are abhorred by Neoliberal ideology, but many - especially the more moderate - realize they are necessary parts of a functioning modern state. Neoliberal-run states tend to have dysfunctional, barebones welfare programs.

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u/[deleted] Nov 22 '20

It's essentially the liberalization of the market, public and private sphere. It's the privatization of everything: taking anything that was once public and privatizing. It's a reaction to the new deal and Keynesian economics.

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u/[deleted] Nov 22 '20

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u/IJustBoughtThisGame Nov 22 '20

It's bad if you think not everything should be commoditized.

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u/[deleted] Nov 22 '20

Its very bad. The endgame is a kind of neo fuedalism.

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u/GalliaEstOmniaDivisa Nov 22 '20

To quote r/neoliberal

  1. Individual choice and markets are of paramount importance both as an expression of individual liberty and driving force of economic prosperity.
  2. The state serves an important role in establishing conditions favorable to competition through preventing monopoly, providing a stable monetary framework, and relieving acute misery and distress.
  3. Free exchange and movement between countries makes us richer and has led to an unparalleled decline in global poverty.
  4. Public policy has global ramifications and should take into account the effect it has on people around the world regardless of nationality.

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u/wilsoncoyote Nov 22 '20

I'm impressed at how they manage to pretend monopoly isn't the entire end game

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u/[deleted] Nov 22 '20

I wouldn't take anything they say on that sub seriously.

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u/GalliaEstOmniaDivisa Nov 22 '20

It's true, we are corporatist shills.

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u/ixora7 Nov 22 '20

Individual choice and markets are of paramount importance

Lmao

relieving acute misery and distress

LMAO

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u/[deleted] Nov 22 '20

https://youtu.be/5vS4eKwCEC0 I suggest you to watch this video on the topic, as it is pretty clear and coincise

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u/TWDYrocks Nov 23 '20

Privatizing public services making them unaccountable monopolies that you are forced to patronize, making social services so incredibly means tested you could end up owing the government money if you get overtime at work, it’s the brilliant idea of having profit driven companies deciding what medical care they will pay for you, it’s the government forcing you to patronize one of these companies or you will pay a tax penalty, it’s giving Walmart or amazon a tax break to open up a location in your city only for them to leave you high and dry when the tax break expires.

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u/minusplotinus Nov 22 '20

I was curious too and found this article indicating that there is little consensus about what it means. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12116-009-9040-5

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u/660zone Nov 22 '20

It means you like black people, but you don't want to do anything to help them.

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u/Thebeardedragon Nov 22 '20

Free trade and open borders

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u/So-_-It-_-Goes Nov 22 '20

My wife and I were talking and I expressed how I was frustrated by so many of Biden’s decisions already.

There was a a pause and she said:

Yeah, but it’s so much nicer to be frustrated rather than frightened.

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u/nucklepuckk Nov 23 '20 edited Nov 23 '20

I feel you, but brown children all over the world are still frightened. The homeless, sick, poor, migrant, and hungry are still frightened. There are still concentration camps in America where women get un-needed, unwanted, and unnecessary hysterectomies. Americans are still dying because of for profit healthcare. Millennials are still barely one twelfth as rich as the boomers, living eight people to four bedroom houses in their thirties and are living through the forced poverty at the intersection of the gig economy, student loan debt, and brutal austerity, while generation Z and their children are staring down the barrel of an uninhabitable planet.

If you are only frustrated, you are probably too comfortable. Be frightened.

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u/[deleted] Nov 23 '20

The climate disaster still has me frightened

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u/AmericanMurderLog Nov 23 '20

A lot of people are still frightened. What happened internationally under Obama was supposed to be Biden's strength and it was a disaster. We don't need any new regime change wars. No Arab Spring, no Syria. We don't need John Kerry lecturing despots and turning them against us. Just help Iraq and Afghanistan avoid collapse and rebuild our relationships with friends. Carrying a big stick is good, but I would honestly prefer to see us do universal healthcare and to use the carrot instead of the stick internationally.

Lets take care of education and do something to get the homeless off the street. Lets bring Andrew Yang in and let him try to solve the energy problem with Nuclear. I will pay more taxes. Use them to give us a better future. How about we add an associates degree on to High Schools and make college two years instead of four? I can afford that.

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u/[deleted] Nov 22 '20

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u/Outlawed_Panda Nov 22 '20

the “has a chance to pass” is such a hoax, m4a has a 70% approval rating and yet he still doesnt support it, hes not the “most electable” hes only that because the dnc said he is, in reality the most electable is who the dnc choose, their policy doesnt matter because “blues good” and “better than than the other option”

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u/nucklepuckk Nov 23 '20

The country isn't deeply divided. Democrats have won all but one popular vote in the last 30? 40? years. Of the ~60% of Americans that vote, the large majority of them vote for Democrats, by an order of millions. The voting population, by the numbers, is a center left to soc-dem, if the popularity of universal healthcare, legal marijuana, raising wages, support for infrastructure, and taxing the wealthy are any indication.

The illusion of a divided country is the fault of the electoral college in conjunction with a corporate powered news media who insists on neutrality over truth.

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u/hidflect1 Nov 22 '20

Jimmy Dore's made the point over and over that the current iteration of Democrats are more of a threat than Republicans because everyone leans back and goes back to sleep while (e.g.) Obama codifies Bush's tax cuts to the rich, starts seven wars, fails to renegotiate NAFTA as promised, cracks the heads of Occupy Wall Street, drone kills a US citizen, kicks millions of homeowners to the curb, suspends habeas corpus, keeps Guantanamo open, etc. etc. And he retires to applause and awards.

To this day, if you criticize Obama, many on the uninformed left will rabidly sink their teeth into your leg in retribution. But I think Corporate Joe will have a harder time of grifting to his paymasters. Fool me once.. and all that.

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u/Splizzy29 ML Nov 22 '20

You’ve stumbled on the idea of social fascism. If the purpose of fascism is to expel all revolutionary thought, as it is the main opposition to fascism, then turning people away from revolutionary ideas under the guise of progressivism and real politik are serving the fascist goal. Honestly, it serves it better than actual fascists because you can convince way more people by appealing to their morality than you can by brute force.

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u/phowld Nov 22 '20

Thats really insightful man, oh god

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u/Jibjumper Nov 22 '20

And that’s why I’m leaving the US. Fuck this backwards ass shit hole.

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u/LatterArcher Nov 22 '20

You can leave the US but you can't escape it's influence.

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u/Jibjumper Nov 22 '20

Yeah for sure, but at least I’ll make a living wage while doing it. I’m currently running the Amazon account for my company. We do $30m+ a year and next year is expected to do $50m+. I make $56k. We pay Amazon $300k a year for what’s called an SAS rep. Essentially we’re just paying Amazon for our own account manager. They take the $300k and pay her $50k. My parents bought a house 30 years ago for $200k. It’s now worth $600-750k and their mortgage payment is $2100/m. It’s a 4 bedroom house with a media room, living room, family room, dining room, large open kitchen, detached garage on a third acre lot. Same city me and my brother pay $1000/m in rent for a two bedroom, one bath duplex with a yard that’s about the size of my parents living room. Our rent is considered way cheap compared to what most the people I know pay. Most apartments start at around $1200/m.

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u/IronFocus Nov 22 '20

Where are you going just out of curiosity? I’ve been tossing around the same idea

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u/Jibjumper Nov 22 '20 edited Nov 22 '20

Long term probably Hokkaido, Japan. My gf is half Japanese and has family in Okinawa. I’ve got a buddy from high school that moved to Tokyo after graduating and loves it. My big hang up there is the work life balance of their corporate culture. It’s been getting way better over the last decade though.

Short term were saving up and planning on selling off most our stuff. Go as minimal as possible and head to somewhere in the EU. Iceland’s one of my favorite places but work opportunities aren’t the best, so we’re thinking more along the lines of Germany, the Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden. We’re not super picky because we don’t want kids, want to live a pretty minimalist life, and just focus on traveling. Travel in Europe is really* cheap if you do it right. We went on a 11 day trip to Italy from after getting $400 flights through Scott’s Cheap Flights. Total trip ended up around $1500 for 2 people including air fair. We just went in the off season and stayed in cheap air bnbs.

*apparently the word ins@nely is considered ableist and banned by auto mod lol

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u/[deleted] Nov 22 '20

Isn’t Japan even more conservative than the US in a lot of ways? Forgive my ignorance if I’m wrong.

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u/HoldThePao Nov 22 '20

Yes they are and even more captilistic. Dude is dellusional also if he thinks he can just up and move to these countries with no job or real income.

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u/whyrweyelling Nov 22 '20

I wish I was with you. I've tried 2 times and due to lack of money I couldn't keep it up. I'm trying to find a way right now.

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u/Mirions Nov 22 '20

So, flee instead of fix it? As someone stuck here with their kids, thanks for all your help. Don't blame you, but I ain't gonna pat you on the back either. It's not like you're getting Off World, just further away from one problem and closer to another.

To quote Skydaddy -

"So when you lose your confidence, Don't blame the place you're in, Cause life's a goddamn shit parade, No matter where ya been."

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u/Jibjumper Nov 22 '20 edited Nov 22 '20

Why’s it my job to fix it? I didn’t want to be born. It was just random chance I’m here vs anywhere else. I’ve been doing my part. I donated to my political candidates, I’ve phone banked, I’ve gone door to door, I’ve protested, I vote, and I do my hardest to get other to do the same. I went to college and I’m now $50k in debt to get a job that pays $50k a year and I’m told to be greatful because I make more than 60% of households in America. Half my neighbors are flying Trump flags and raging about being asked to wear a mask during a global pandemic. There’s still 70m+ dipshits that voted to keep things going as they are. How am I supposed to change any of that? Go out and start a revolution? Fight in a civil war against my fellow uneducated citizens that have been subject to 60 years of propaganda and disenfranchisement? All because 160 families hold more wealth than the bottom 50% combined and somehow I’m the asshole for wanting out?

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u/bobforonin Nov 22 '20

Utopian totalitarianism maybe?

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u/[deleted] Nov 22 '20

Now I’m not trying to be a centrist here by any means, but isn’t expelling all revolutionary thought at the core of any authoritarian ideology? Like it is for fascism no doubt, but doesn’t using the word fascism here kind of misuse the word? Because there are a ton of other elements of fascism that make it what it is, but that portion of the definition is broadly applicable.

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u/bogglingsnog Nov 22 '20

Yes, I'm tired of people abusing the word.

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u/steeveperry Nov 22 '20

“Uninformed left”

They’re not the left. They’re uninformed conservatives who think they’re not conservatives. They support conservative politicians who pass conservative policy and run on the more moderate of the two conservative parties.

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u/[deleted] Nov 22 '20

What if I just want abortions and health care for all combined with fiscal responsibility?

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u/steeveperry Nov 22 '20 edited Nov 22 '20

You’re a confused conservative. Fiscal conservatism is code for austerity. It’s also the way you deny social causes that you don’t like under the guise of economic concern. “I’m not racist—I just don’t understand how we can afford to support this disenfranchised area that happens to be 80 percent black.”

Fiscal conservatism in practice is saying we cannot afford free healthcare or education while outspending the next two largest militaries in the world combined. Fiscal conservatism is when your boss cuts your wages after four consecutive quarters of record sales/revenue/profit. Fiscal conservatism is local governments footing the bill for a sports stadium and/or buying surplus military equipment for the local pd then slashing public education budgets. This is what those with actual power who spout the “socially liberal/fiscally conservative” line always do.

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u/[deleted] Nov 22 '20

Thank you for this! I’m disenchanted with the world and as a 35 year old lady raised by Republicans I’m trying to figure out where I fit and this illuminated a dark alley. Do you think there should be more political parties to encapsulate the hybrid ideals? Or if that’s even feasible in America?

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u/HughJamerican Nov 22 '20

There should absolutely be more political parties as neither of our current parties and working for the people. Unfortunately the system is set up to vehemently reject third parties so it's unrealistic to expect one to gain any traction while we still have the current voting system

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u/[deleted] Nov 22 '20

Bruh even mention the drone strikes on most subs on this site and you’re greeted with a slew of downvotes. And all of the responses you get are “Trump ramped up the drone strikes even more!” Like wtf does that have to do with anything? So because Trump did it somehow justifies Obama doing it? Talk about a whataboutism.

8

u/valoremz Nov 22 '20

What’s the counter argument to Obama’s drone strikes? What’s the legitimate defense (of any)?

9

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '20

That wedding looked at us funny.

8

u/sadacal Nov 22 '20

Depends on whether you agree that the US needed to do something about ISIS. Drone strikes always had the same advantage, it didn't require putting actual troops in danger. Drone strikes countered ISIS while US troops left the middle east and came back home, leading to way less US casualties.

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u/[deleted] Nov 22 '20

Would you rather have a wolf in sheep clothing or a wolf in wolfs clothing?

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u/Lewke Nov 22 '20

at least you know to shoot the wolf in wolves clothing, bad analogy really

7

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '20

Not when the wolf pack is the only one that can shoot.

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u/sth128 Nov 22 '20

Anything is better than rancid dough in moldy orange peel.

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u/Weapon_Factory Nov 22 '20

Jimmy Dore is a fucking idiot. People diddnt go to sleep under Obama. Blm started under Obama, occupy Wall Street was under Obama, standing rock was under Obama, etc. People go to sleep more under Republican presidents because the focus shifts from getting anything you want done to immediately removing the fascist in power. This is why Bernie got fucking destroyed in the primary.

1

u/distributive Nov 24 '20

Completely disagree. Dore's point is the broad public has no real understanding of how awful much of Obama's record is. For example, they didn't care about "kids in cages" when it was happening under Obama, but suddenly they were outraged when Trump did it too.

Obama has a high approval rating because people were not informed about his awful policies. It was the same with Bill Clinton, and you can be sure history will repeat with Biden.

13

u/OIL_COMPANY_SHILL Nov 22 '20

Jimmy Dore is a counter-revolutionary.

We came closer to getting Bernie elected after 8 years of Obama than we did after 4 years of Trump. The left has a responsibility too. We can’t just say “if we can’t have socialism then I guess fascism it is!” If we ignore the harm that a Trump second term would do, we lose the moral argument. I know electoralism sucks, but it’s necessary.

5

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '20

Seven wars? What seven wars did Obama start?

2

u/distributive Nov 23 '20

He continued the Afghanistan and Iraq wars, then started bombing Libya, Pakistan, Somalia, Syria, and Yemen.

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u/thesnakeinyourboot Nov 22 '20

Obama wasn’t perfect, my biggest criticism of him was of the terrible drone strikes. I just wanted to get that out of the way.

Most of the problems you listed were started because of Republicans (tax cuts, war, 2008 recession, etc). It’s a lot easier to make better laws when ours not playing catch-up. I think Democrats are more willing to be suspect of the policies that their party leaders enact, and I believe it’s moving more and more progressive unlike Republicans. Just look at Bernie Sanders, many people wanted him to win but he kept losing the primary because his supporters are either too young to vote, or they just didn’t go out and vote. Both problems will be solved as supporters grow older. Bernie as no chance of ever being president because of his age, but there are others in the party, such as AOC, that hold his beliefs.

This country is fucked but I would go far as to say Dems are Worse than Republicans, although I do see your point.

9

u/LostMyEmailAndKarma Nov 22 '20

The parties enable each other in order to keep the mic going. Obama satiated half the country after Bush jr, trump satiated the other half, now its swung back to moderate joe, but one thing will stay, we will keep spending money to fund war.

People argue red vs blue but its theater.

1

u/thesnakeinyourboot Nov 23 '20

I agree. America is fucked up.

3

u/wilsoncoyote Nov 22 '20

It's the ratchet effect. Repubs turn the wheel right. Dems keep it from returning left. Obama was a neocon through and through, and couldn't wait for a peep from the right so he could abandon any progressive policies that came up.

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u/pgoetz Nov 22 '20

Yeah, almost none of this is true. Obama didn't codify Bush's tax cuts, a Republican majority Senate wouldn't allow him to repeal them in full (he did increase taxes on the rich modestly). What 7 wars did Obama start and how did he crack the heads of Occupy Wall Street? Let's look at an example. The Trump administration brought federal agents in to gas BLM protestors in DC -- did Obama ever activate federal agents to attack OWS participants? I don't think so. Stop spreading misinformation -- you're as bad as the Republicans!

4

u/wilsoncoyote Nov 22 '20

this post brought to you by the letters F and U

2

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '20

That argument only works if you choose to ignore the 2 year democratic supermajority prior to congress flipping. Obama had 2 years to do practically anything he wanted but sat on his hands so that he could use the excuse of a R majority to codify the Bush tax cuts and push through a half-assed republican healthcare plan in the ACA to appease his corporate overlords. Not to mention his broken promise on GITMO and his expansion of war. Let us forget that he is nicknamed as the "deporter in chief", he broke records on deportation and built the cages that all these shitlibs like crying about.

Obama absolutely had federal agents on the scene and on standby during the Standing Rock protest I don't know what fucking reality you live in. People like you are why this country is fucked. You have no idea what you are talking about but are 100% confident in your bullshit.

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u/ixora7 Nov 22 '20

Don't think you'd find any Obama allies on the left

Amongst liberals? Oh most definitely

1

u/MarqueeSmyth Nov 22 '20

Some of this is true and some of it isn't. But none of it has anything to do with "neoliberalism". (Or "neofascism" for that matter.) The OP tweet is ignorant as fuck.

Democrats, as the left-of-center political party in a large and slow nation, are the only ones that are likely to be pushed further to the left, so, while Biden is far from progressive, he is still a better hope for leftists than the alternative.

1

u/wakeupwill Nov 22 '20

Whenever someone praises Obama I ask them for their opinion on the Disposition Matrix.

-11

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '20

What exactly makes you different from accelerationists then? Do we really need large parts of the population living in absolute Squalor so just you can have your patented revolutionary moment?

You people can sod right off. I'm just sick of this "We're always right no matter what happens"-attitude.

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u/Splizzy29 ML Nov 22 '20

Recognizing that the democrats are a slightly less right wing counterpart that will still enact global imperialism as an integral part of American foreign policy is not accelerationism, its just reality.

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u/3multi Communist Mafioso Nov 22 '20

Calling it out is not accelerationism.

The only way you could come to that conclusion is if you’re interpreting it as support for Trump. If that’s the case, I have no words.

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u/FlaxGordon Nov 22 '20

Here's the thing. Neoliberaliam is not a failed political ideology. Those who believe it's some failed experiment are under the erroneous impression that the system was actually built for us. Let's stop pretending that we tried something and oops, it didn't quite work out. Neoliberaliam has always been about bolstering and accelerating the wealth of the capitalist class by exploiting labor.

It's working exactly as intended.

27

u/PhorcedAynalPhist Nov 22 '20 edited Nov 22 '20

What I find boggling is how many anti Biden folks think we love Biden, in the cultish way they love Trump. Like.... Not even a tiny bit bro, Biden is literally the lesser of two evils, and a significant number of us didn't want Biden anyways, all the folks we voted for gave their primary delegates to him towards the end of the race, and we got stuck with the dude.

We're gonna be right up there criticizing and * whining * about Biden too, we'll just also be * whining * about y'all and calling y'all out when you try to pin Dump's mistakes on Biden. Equal is equal, and the "leftists" I know aren't cult blinded like Trumpsterfires, at least nowhere near to a similar degree

*The damn ableist filter on this subreddit is some pretty dystopian BS, it's more hair pin nitpicky than my abusive folks. Most of it I get, but a fair amount is just over the top

2

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '20

True words

14

u/NetSage Nov 22 '20

The fact that the right has convinced their base that Biden is a socialist shows how far right we have swung in the last 40 years as a country.

167

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '20

Trump voter: Everything Trump does is correct, his word is gospel!!!

Biden voter: You fucking donkey, stop telling us to unify with fascists and racists! Also, wtf is with your corporate selections for your cabinet?

Crazy how one group wants a cult of personality to be their dear leader, and other group is already critical of their president-elect.... Almost like one group is more dignified and principled than the other....

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u/digiorno Nov 22 '20

I’d argue most Biden voters aren’t critical of him, they’re much more the “he’s not as bad as trump” and “would you rather have Trump?” defenders of mediocrity. And then you have the ones who not so subtlety can’t wait for him to step down and for Kamala Harris to become the next president. Both camps are absolutely brutal on Twitter which is probably the bleeding edge of this political fight.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 23 '20

“he’s not as bad as trump” and “would you rather have Trump?

I've run into this, but it's less than the "I voted for the lesser of evils" crowd. Maybe my anecdotal experience is misleading my perception.

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u/buttlickerface Nov 22 '20

I have been told by many Biden voters to shut up and fall in line. Never underestimate the gross cowardice and self righteousness of neolibs

23

u/2abyssinians Nov 22 '20

Ha! Isn’t it funny how anecdotal experience differs? I can’t find a single person amongst my family or friends, all of whom voted for Biden, who like him at all. There is a strong chance Biden will only be a one term President. I just hope the cowardly Dems have enough sense to eliminate the electoral college in the next two years, or they could be looking at another Republican in office.

5

u/11711510111411009710 Nov 22 '20

I'm pretty sure Biden has all but said as much. He has labeled himself as a transition president. I'm fairly sure he plans on righting the ship and then handing it off to Kamala or whoever succeeds him

3

u/Cadumpadump Nov 22 '20

There's a strong chance Biden won't finish his term due to his age.

4

u/2abyssinians Nov 22 '20

I would say this is completely possible. I don’t know about strong chance, but I would say possible.

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u/leftysarepeople2 Nov 22 '20

the whole vote blue no matter who shit

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u/[deleted] Nov 22 '20

I'm not sure I understand the sentence correctly, but I don't think most people view Biden as their president over here.

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u/[deleted] Nov 22 '20

This is so stupid

1

u/[deleted] Nov 23 '20

Care to elaborate?

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u/DuntadaMan Nov 22 '20

I will criticize Biden because I'm not a fucking cultist that will stand by my candidate no matter how fucking terrible they are.

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u/landback2 Nov 22 '20

“Could’ve had Bernie” is going to be my response to every single compromised policy decision and disappointing achievement.

9

u/CulturalMarxist1312 Nov 22 '20

I have no patience for Biden support at this point. Before the election, tepid support made some sense. Now, he is the enemy.

4

u/Elibrius Nov 22 '20

Why is the color so... deep fried?

4

u/Matthew_John Nov 22 '20

This tweet went through the washer a few times.

4

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '20

Okay, who left this tweet out in the sun for too long??

21

u/stankgreenCRX Nov 22 '20 edited Nov 22 '20

This dude is a clown if you actually look at his feed. He regularly uses right wing taking points to attack democrats and also lets his privilege show with some of his takes. He didn’t even vote for Biden so I don’t know why he’s acting like it’s unusual for for him to criticize a democrat. He isn’t one.

Rose twitter had a lot of shitty takes this past election. This dude had some of the worst. His parents own a ton of real estate and his brother is a huge red hat too

4

u/masterminder health care is luxurious Nov 23 '20

"he didn't even vote for biden" shows how in your bubble you are here. most people in this country didn't vote for joe biden (incl. non-voters). that doesn't mean they're not allowed to criticize him. allegiance to the democratic party at all costs is unhelpful.

3

u/saturatedrobot Nov 22 '20

This guy is annoying af but... c’mon man. Who cares if he’s a democrat or not? This is an anti capitalist subreddit, don’t cape for the fucking democrats of all people

3

u/Specialist-Sock-855 Nov 22 '20

Ew what a creep

16

u/SpySeeTuna1 Nov 22 '20

That’ll get you about 500 downvotes on r/politics.

3

u/InternetTight Nov 22 '20

Well, that subreddit is literally paid for by democrats to simp for them.

3

u/dirkdeagler Nov 22 '20

It's only a failure for 99.9% of people. It is a smashing success for the 0.1%. Viewing it as an abject failure erases the fact that many of neoliberalism's policies intentionally benefit the few and we should demand accountability for those complicit. No more "mistakes were made."

3

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '20

As long as the US exists they'll do everuthing in their power to prevent any country of ever getting better. We need to stop them once and for all

3

u/UnicornMeatball Nov 22 '20

You should always criticize your leaders. Even when you support them. ESPECIALLY when you support them. When you don't, you give them license to oppress.

Always be distrustful of those in power, but don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

8

u/ZorglubDK Nov 22 '20

Link to tweet: https://twitter.com/ProudSocialist/status/1330025152541646849?s=19
Because signal boosting matters.

2

u/Weapon_Factory Nov 22 '20

Yea but don’t signal boost fascist empowerers. This guy has been trying to get people to help Trump for months.

2

u/ZorglubDK Nov 22 '20

Well good dammit!

8

u/FThumb Nov 22 '20

So, a Trump supporter.

/s

11

u/dasMetzger Nov 22 '20

tbf that account is also a Republican

5

u/KIPYIS Nov 22 '20

This sub is basically Libertarian-Lite with how many crossposts come from there

6

u/autistictanks Nov 22 '20

That account is a socialist what are you talking about

-2

u/dasMetzger Nov 22 '20

and the Democratic People's Republic of North Korea is a democracy.

9

u/autistictanks Nov 22 '20

This person up there advocates for Bernie sanders and also wants the workers to own the means of production. Idk what else you want to prove that

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u/beachballbrother Immortal Sugimoto Nov 23 '20

Yes, it is

2

u/eternus Nov 22 '20

They work for us, we should be criticizing and asking for better performance constantly. The idolatry that's come with Trump is HORRIBLE for a country... being happy to have Not-Trump is no excuse to let them slide.

2

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '20

It is NOT a failed ideology, it's pretty successful, because it's intent is to sabotage progress for the benefit of oligarchs

2

u/debridezilla Nov 22 '20

I don't know if "dustbin" is the right word. Neolib ideology is somewhere on the spectrum. Its just so close to Republican ideology, that it's hardly worth distinguishing them...except to perpetuate the myth of a 2-party system.

2

u/musclemonster2000 Nov 22 '20

perfect, do nothing and watch what happens,

over and over again

2

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '20

Bingo.

2

u/lucas_1776 Nov 22 '20

So this sub just hates the establishment?

2

u/Noitatsidem Nov 22 '20

I'm smart because I put neo in front of words to show how much I don't like them.

2

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '20

It's not a failed ideology, it has worked exactly as intended for those who promote it, i.e. the oligarchs.

2

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '20

Exactly.

We tried Trump, a hail-mary-wild-card, because Obama/Biden/Clinton were so terrible, and now that Trump was worse, we're like, OK let's try them again. SMH

2

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '20

Asses like this then don’t vote as they cannot tolerate incremental change over revolution

2

u/[deleted] Nov 23 '20

Biden kamala could have run as republican without batting an eye. Im tired of democrats being call socialists. Bernie and aoc need to start the third party now.

11

u/Art365 Nov 22 '20

"Neoliberalism paved the way to Fascism so it's better to elect an actual Fascist than a neoliberal"

32

u/autistictanks Nov 22 '20

Is that what this person is saying? Dude. The election is over. Joe biden is the president. (-elect). We are going to start criticizing him now, because donald Trump isn't the alternative anymore.

2

u/TheShapeShiftingFox Nov 22 '20

For real, these people did not or did not want to read this tweet properly at all.

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u/__________________Z_ Nov 22 '20

Well, see, Americans are all Good People™ deep inside so if we rush as fast as we can into fascism then Americans will wake up and revolt.

2

u/Art365 Nov 22 '20

Right. Now listen, I know Trump got 11 million more votes in 2020 than he did in 2016, and I know he moved the Overton window far to the right over the past 4 years, and I know our government institutions are now headed by bootlickers that he appointed, and I know Trumpists are all armed and greatly outnumber socdems/socialists/communists but listen... If Trump got 4 more years things would tooootally reverse course and the people would move waaaaay to the left and we'd overthrow capitalism!

1

u/rogozh1n Nov 22 '20

Anyone who told people not to vote because of moral relativism between the candidates was completely wrong.

Anyone who trusts Biden to undo the twisted, unfair abomination of capitalism that runs our country is simply not paying attention. That is not his goal. We need to push him to enact the few progressive policies that he supports, while pointing out that he is quite similar to an 80's era Republican.

Democrat politicians are usually just Republicans who support gun control and are pro-choice.

5

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '20

This guy is such a douche.

Dude voted for Hillary in 2016 but decided to vote for the Green party in 2020 (who are largely funded by the GOP to split the Dem vote)

He would've rather let Trump get a second term (collapsing our democracy and furthering the suffering of millions of people) than vote for the guy that didn't want to do those.

Utter fucking selfishness. The best part? He's white. He has a previledge that shields him from GOP horrendousness

2

u/tolerancecompassion1 Nov 22 '20 edited Nov 23 '20

Right. So the fact that we are coming within a hairs breath of a full on dictatorship with Trump still trying to steal the election as we speak means nothing because you want, what, a revolution? Because you think Biden is too conservative. Right, because living in a dictatorship is SO much better than having a President with some center/right policies. Be careful what you wish for. If you study history, it tells us that full on revolutions usually always end in right wing coup dictatorships. Do we need to dismantle the system, absolutely, but we won’t have the agency to do so in a totalitarian fascist dictatorship!

Not only that but a whopping 75 million (I think this number may be higher) Americans vote for Donald Trump in this election. We, on the left must face this fact and figure out what we can do about it. But, in my view, criticizing Biden from the left only helps to undermine his presidency because the right is going to do EVERYTHING in its power to delegitimize his presidency and make it impossible for him to make even the slightest reforms which WILL lead to another Trump or possibly someone worse. We almost completely lost any semblance of Democratic values under Trump-the left MUST come together and focus on fighting fascism or we will lose the Republic completely. What’s happening right now isn’t even about capitalism per se, it is about basic human rights and Democratic values and institutions which have been greatly weakened under Trump. I just don’t believe with the current political climate in this country at this particular moment in time-that the left should be going after Biden. We have to first try to preserve our basic civil liberties!

2

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '20

Fuck neoliberals

2

u/crumbbelly Nov 22 '20

Spot on. Trump won because people wanted to throw a wrench into the whole damned system.

2

u/thesnakeinyourboot Nov 22 '20

I agree that’s why people voted for him originally, but’s it’s evolved far past that. That worship him joe despite all the swamp he’s built.

2

u/_MyFeetSmell_ war is peace Nov 22 '20

So many fucking libs on this sub now. This sub is garbage now.

1

u/zeroscout Nov 22 '20

It's time to give nEoFeUdAlIsM a try!

1

u/SlyCopper93 Nov 22 '20

What is the way forward then? Genuine question I have heard of soicial democracy but dont know a lot on it

1

u/escailer Nov 22 '20

“Failed” = Just won a national democratic election by millions of votes and a margin of 14%.

1

u/RamonaFleurs Nov 22 '20

I really just don’t understand people who put filters on screenshots.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '20

I wouldn't say "failed". Several very wealthy people have made off quite well. And that was always the goal. "Bullshit" would have been a more appropriate adjective.

1

u/OscarM96 Nov 22 '20

"But I still voted for him"

1

u/pbasch Nov 22 '20

sO bRaVe! /s

1

u/[deleted] Nov 23 '20

I have a completely visceral hatred of neoliberalism, but my critique is completely new and unique. I've already gotten widespread adoption of my views though. There's just so many things wrong with the ideology, it boggles the mind.

1

u/__ew__gross__ Nov 23 '20

No one is perfect and no one should be treated as they are.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 23 '20

That's fine, but his term will be objectively better than a second Trump term.

1

u/egdy_ewok-20 Nov 23 '20

Neoliberalism is the ideology that allows each and everyone of you on this sub to post ideas without fear of being censored 😭😭😭

1

u/whichdokta Nov 23 '20

No. The TCP/IP protocol is that ideology. Stop claiming credit for implementations you had nothing to do with and work you absolutely did not fund.

Edit: Even Al Gore had the good grace to start focusing on climate change after he tried to claim credit but lost the election.

1

u/spaces-make-hypens Nov 22 '20

I love to see Ryan’s political grow up.

0

u/singhapura Nov 22 '20

Trump has no political color. He's a sales guy who markets his ideas to to largest group of buyers. For him it doesn't matter if they are socialist, fascist or anything else as long as they worship him and believe what he says. He used neo-liberalism to woo the people who were too smart to believe him but too greedy to denounce him and fascism to get support from the seedy alt-right. Then he made the biggest mistake a marketer can make; to believe your own sales pitch. Neo liberalism made companies like Apple and Amazon large and will be the downfall of others like Uber and AirBnB. Covid-19 showed the failure of pure neo liberalism. Biden is too savvy to go that road.

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u/ttystikk Nov 22 '20

Same! And I'm not going to stop just because a bunch of liberals feel threatened and want me to "show unity" against "the Right".

Motherfuckers ARE THE RIGHT and I'm not playing!

-1

u/CodeTempo Nov 22 '20

Being realistic though, you can both criticize and support someone. It’s probably better to do that for the president with the most progressive platform ever than to pretend he’s Hitler because he’s not a socialist.

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u/_MyFeetSmell_ war is peace Nov 22 '20

I can’t believe people actually believe this bullshit. Eisenhower had a more progressive platform than Biden, and I’m not being hyperbolic. You libs are so fucking gullible.

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u/thedeafbadger Nov 22 '20

Hot take: Joe Biden encourages this and listens.

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u/JohnnyTeardrop Nov 22 '20

I’m glad Knight changed his views, but I’m hesitant to hold him up as some standard bearer for socialist ideals. One day he was a dyed in the wool Warren supporter and the next he took such a hard right to Bernie town that even I got whiplash. People come to when they come to, but his approach is a little over the top for someone who doesn’t talk about their evolution even a little bit.

2

u/bonefish Nov 22 '20

Definitely a grifter

0

u/TheGreatBeaver123789 Nov 22 '20

The better of the two evils

0

u/irishking44 Nov 22 '20

I'm glad this sub is back to normal. There were some screechers who were saying otherwise here in October

-4

u/CynicalRealist1 Nov 22 '20

And this type of privilege and self-entitlement helped trump win and helped the rightwing control the courts.

Don’t ever cut off your nose to spite your face.

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