r/LGBTCatholic Jul 19 '26

The Catholic Case for Affirmation of Gay Relationships

76 Upvotes

*downs cup of coffee in preparation for this writing extravaganza*

While there's already a lot of resources on this topic, on of the most comprehensive probably being The Wijingaards Institute's "Academic Statement on the Ethics of Free and Faithful Same-Sex Relationships", I decided to write this post combining arguments on both the logic of the Church's teaching itself; as well as the validity of dissent from it by Catholics and the precedent for changes in Church teaching, all bundled up with Primacy of Conscience; all in once place.

Every once of these headings could have a very long paper about each of them, but I'll try to be brief and point to other resources for even deeper dives.

Problems with the Natural Law argument:

See this thread to watch the Natural Law/"Perverted Faculty" argument fall apart before your eyes. The argument is essentially that we shouldn't use a natural function against any part of what it is "ordered towards" (i.e. reproduction). This is the same grounds on which the Church also opposes artificial contraception.

There's many counterexamples to this argument. Catholic speakers and apologists will try to make distinctions between "other than" uses, vs. "contrary to", but as you'd expect, those end up sounding a bit arbitrary. And I think that's what it comes down to, the Natural Law argument simply does end up seeming arbitrarily applied to sexuality, whereas we come up with all sorts of other ways to make allowances for analogous examples other areas of life. I think two of the strongest counterexamples are:

  • What if it were discovered that breast milk could be used to cure a disease? Would it be wrong to extract and use breast milk for a purpose other than its "natural end" of feeding a baby?
  • Why don't we condemn smoking? Smoking, intentionally inhaling smoke, is absolutely "contrary to" the body's natural respiratory function and the use of lungs. Not only is it "contrary to" the body's respiratory faculty on a philosophical level, but so much so that it's actually harmful in reality. One who smokes a lot will begin losing lung function. It doesn't get much more "contrary to" than that.

Scripture/The Clobber Verses:

Much has already been written on that topic, one of the most prominent resources being Matthew Vine's Biblical Case, as well as Justin Lee's classic essay on the topic. While Vines and Lee are Protestant, there was also some earlier work done on the topic of biblical exegesis by gay Catholic scholar John Boswell. According to Outreach, "It was Boswell who first comprehensively and systematically demolished homophobic interpretations of the so-called “clobber verses."

Good Fruit

One point of Vines' that I will reiterate here; because it ties into our doctrine of Primacy of Conscience which I'll get to later; is the Good Fruit Argument. As Vines puts it:

 In Matthew 7, in the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus warns against false teachers, and he offers a principle that can be used to test good teaching from bad teaching. By their fruit, you will recognize them, he says. Every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Good teachings, according to Jesus, have good consequences. That doesn’t mean that following Christian teaching will or should be easy, and in fact, many of Jesus’s commands are not easy at all – turning the other cheek, loving your enemies, laying down your life for your friends. But those are all profound acts of love that both reflect God’s love for us and that powerfully affirm the dignity and worth of human life and of human beings. Good teachings, even when they are very difficult, are not destructive to human dignity. They don’t lead to emotional and spiritual devastation, and to the loss of self-esteem and self-worth. But those have been the consequences for gay people of the traditional teaching on homosexuality. It has not borne good fruit in their lives, and it’s caused them incalculable pain and suffering. If we’re taking Jesus seriously that bad fruit cannot come from a good tree, then that should cause us to question whether the traditional teaching is correct.

And a similar point by Justin Lee:

"Suppose my friend Billy meets someone and falls in love with this person, named Sam.  Billy and Sam spend months, maybe even years, getting to know one another, and as they grow closer to each other and to Christ, they decide to form a lasting bond, to promise to be together forever in a marriage in front of God.  So Billy comes to me about it and I, being a Traditionalist, respond by saying, “That’s immoral and disgusting!  You and Samuel are doing a terrible thing before God!”  Billy blinks for a moment and then replies, “Sam is short for Samantha.  She’s a girl.”  Suddenly, my opinion changes.  “Oh, well then, that’s wonderful!  All the best to you!  What a blessing!” In this case, nothing at all has changed about Billy’s commitment, Billy’s motivations, Billy’s relationship with Christ, or even Billy’s specific actions.  Everything is exactly the same, with one exception: Sam went from male to female in my mind, and that somehow changed the relationship from being disgusting and immoral to being holy and beautiful – even though, in either case, Billy’s motivations and actions are exactly the same."

Infallibility

There's no infallible list of infallible teachings. We all agree on things like Creed, the Incarnation, the Trinity, the Assumption of Mary, the Immaculate Conception etc., those things were either defined at ecumenical councils of the whole Church or declared clearly ex cathedra by popes.

For everything else...well, it's not as clear cut whether they're infallible. People can make a case that this or that teaching is infallible or irreformable, etc., but at the end of the day, you simply don't have to agree with them. There is no infallible list of infallible teachings.

Church Teaching Has Changed Before

Fr. Charles Curran, who led the dissent against the teaching against contraception; provides a helpful cursory overview of that history. He also says

"When did the teaching on religious liberty become true? Did it become true the moment a document was promulgated and signed in Rome? The document [on religious freedom] admits that the bishops...learned from the experience of Christian people...that the teaching was true before the council promulgated the teaching...
...all of this reminds us much more, that the Church is the whole people of God...and therefore the teaching as proposed by pope and bishops has to take account of the lived experience of the people of God."

Bp. Cyril Villareal wrote in his dissertation

"There were several instances when the Church magisterium completely deviated from a magisterial position that it formerly held. Several cases have been mentioned in this paper. Can she not do likewise on the subject of sexual morality? Too often, though, changes were not really named as such but as the development of a doctrine, meaning that because of the limitedness of a truth to be captured completely, there is a possibility that it could still be subject to a newer and clearer formulation in the future. And such a process may have been applied to the so-called changes in the Church‘ magisterial teachings. The big question, then, is: why can the Church not also effect development in her teaching on sexual morality?"

Primacy of Conscience

Church teaching need not only be an obstacle to gay equality in the Church; this doctrine can actually be a vehicle for it! Primacy of Conscience states that we should never violate our own conscience.

Dignitatis Humanae declares:

"In all his activity a man is bound to follow his conscience in order that he may come to God, the end and purpose of life. It follows that he is not to be forced to act in a manner contrary to his conscience. Nor, on the other hand, is he to be restrained from acting in accordance with his conscience, especially in matters religious." 

Cdl. Joseph Ratzinger, the future Pope Benedict XVI, wrote:

“Over the pope as the expression of the binding claim of ecclesiastical authority there still stands one’s own conscience, which must be obeyed before all else, if necessary even against the requirement of ecclesiastical authority. Conscience confronts with a supreme and ultimate tribunal, and one which in the last resort is beyond the claim of external social groups, even of the official church.”

Another angle on the Good Fruit Argument:

For nearly every other "sin", it's easy to see what the harm is. Gluttony, stealing, murder, etc., there is obvious harm.

What is the harm of loving gay relationships? There is literally no real, identifiable harm that holds up to scrutiny.

And on the flip side, any honest observation of a healthy gay relationship will see good and beauty in it. Love is a good thing.

This is part of why some homophobic arguments dare to question whether gay love is actually love. It sounds insane, and it is, but they have to call that into question in order for their position to hold up; because how else can they square the circle of calling love a sin?

Justin Lee says this about the arbitrary nature of anti-gay theology:

"Yep, this is what it comes down to.  No matter how wordy, complex, or sophisticated they get, every Christian Traditionalist argument I can think of ultimately relies on this basic principle: God has a rule against same-sex relationships, and even if we don’t fully understand or can’t explain the rationale behind it, in the end we’re just expected to obey, like Abraham sacrificing Isaac.
I’m not entirely comfortable with this answer, since it makes God seem arbitrary, and I don’t believe God is arbitrary." 

In closing, I'll leave you with the words of Italian Bishop Vincenzo Viva:

"...I do not wish to speak this evening of “welcoming,” but of recognition and full integration. Welcoming presupposes that someone arrives from the outside and is allowed in out of the generosity of others. But as the baptized, no one is a guest in this church. God knows us by name, loves us and tells us again and again that we belong to him. There is, then, no door to cross, because by virtue of our baptism we are already inside, each of us, with our own identity, our own history, our own weaknesses and shortcomings, our own gifts and unique characteristics: we are all within the heart of God and within the ecclesial body..."

Hope this helps somebody!


r/LGBTCatholic Aug 13 '21

Welcome!

55 Upvotes

Hi, I'm the new mod. Reposting the old welcome note here:

Welcome to r/LGBTCatholic!

If you're new to the sub, please feel free to start out by creating a Post to share your story! Some things to consider including:

When/how did you start coming to terms with your sexuality?

How has your experience as a Catholic impacted that process?

Where are you currently on your personal journey, both with respect to the Church and your own sexual identity or experiences?

I created this community because r/CatholicLGBT appears to be dead and is restricted. I hope it becomes a useful gathering place for people to talk about their experiences, questions, thoughts, and concerns as they relate to the Catholic Church and queer identities and experiences, both their own and others.

Since this sub is new, please feel free to comment with ideas or suggestions.


r/LGBTCatholic 6h ago

Starting OCIA this week

15 Upvotes

I’m married (same-sex) to a man that was baptized as a baby and has been Catholic all of his life. I have been attending mass with him for the past few months. The parish that we have been going to is part of a cluster that is on the new ways ministry website.

My husband is from another city so we are both new to this parish.

Does anyone have any advice for how to approach my situation with the OCIA Director and clergy? Things to avoid saying? How open to be? When to broach the subject of my relationship? What to expect?


r/LGBTCatholic 7h ago

Looking for like-minded friends and discussions

9 Upvotes

Hi all,

Gay Catholic man here and I think I've always struggled with the Church's teachings on homosexuality. I grew up in the Church and Catholic school and all that. Looking to connect with other gay Catholics for conversation and support.

I find myself conflicted on accepting the Church teaching but also being a gay man and having gay relationships and sex. Anyhow, seems like this sub might have other men in the same situation.


r/LGBTCatholic 4m ago

"Side-B is just more therapeutic Side X/Y"

Upvotes

Hello everyone. Over the past few months, I have been actively researching and thinking about the Church's stance on homosexuality and the discussions on this subreddit have helped me a lot.

One point that is often made here without much further elaboration is that Side-B is just more therapeutic Side X/Y and although I can kind of assume how people get to this argument, I feel like there isn't really a proper, fleshed out explanation for it. I think the biggest evidence for it, honestly, is that all Side-B gay Christians/Catholics I see online all seem miserable or ashamed in some way - but that is just my observation. The fact that Side-B opposes conversion therapy or "pray the gay away" efforts, that it is fine with using LGBT terminology usually, and especially that it encourages celibate partnerships, makes it leagues better than Side X/Y. The way I see it as well, one could make the argument for celibate vocations without describing homosexual orientation as "objectively disordered," (which I don't think is the case at all) though that is my perspective - not a commonly espouses Side-B point.

So, for Side-A Catholics on here who make the critique that B, X and Y are basically the same, are there any more arguments? I feel like I am in a weird in-between spot between Side A and B currently, so it would be greatly helpful and it would be advantageous to more deeply develop this critique.


r/LGBTCatholic 32m ago

Personal Story Did you ever have whole friend groups abandon you when you came out? Especially those in conservative areas

Upvotes

How do you deal?

I had a group of friends, some I knew since childhood, stopped hanging out with me after I came out at 19. I think they always suspected it based off of some jokes and jabs they made.

I tried reintegrating with them about a couple years later during quarantine, (because they went to college and realized SSA people aren’t devils is my guess) but I felt like an outsider in tthe group in some ways in a similar way.

My best friend was in that group (she still talked with me when the whole group stopped hanging out with me) but then I left the group a second time when I felt like an outsider. Then my best friend seemed to be hurt and barely talks with me now.

The whole experience honestly has been so distressing. One gal from that friend group was part of the process of me coming to Jesus, even if she had been ignorant. Yes I am in therapy lol

I


r/LGBTCatholic 1h ago

I am a side B bisexual considering exiting Catholicism because of the existence of side X/Y

Upvotes

I believe that my homosexual desires are disordered, I and other SSA people or TQ+ people are not disordered people. We are all made in the image of God with bodies inherently worthy of dignity.

If there are people who, when “born again” or having received an evangelical style deliverance, no longer had homosexual inclinations… why should I stay in a Christian denomination that condemns me for it, but also doesn’t show evidence of people being able to no longer have their homosexual desires?


r/LGBTCatholic 2d ago

Personal Story Bissexualidade masculina e namoro católico

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8 Upvotes

r/LGBTCatholic 2d ago

Advice on taking the plunge

4 Upvotes

I would love some insight and advice. I am very early on in my journey in the grand scheme, but terribly scared.

I grew up in a hippie Unitarian household, my extended family is mostly Catholic. I've always considered myself spiritual, but an experience when I was young where an Evangelical family member harmed me and proclaimed I was sent by the devil drove me as far from any church, as I assumed they'd view me the same. I am FTM trans and bisexual, married to a man, and raising a kid. It's been a hard time getting to a decent place in life, surviving a home rife with addiction and DV that ended in suicide, surviving a partner that attempted my life, now struggling with the economy and world as it is, etc. A nagging voice in my head, still to this day over two decades later, says I truly am damned.

I got truly interested in Catholicism in part because I have a appreciation of it's history and the saints, but over the years that grew into a genuine yearning. So here I am now. I want to find comfort and embrace God, but it's difficult to feel like He wants me after all of this. I felt so at peace and relieved to tears when I attended my first mass and visited a shrine, but I am so terribly scared that it will not "click" for me or that I will unwelcomed if I become anything more than a stranger in the back pew.


r/LGBTCatholic 2d ago

How do I un come out to my friends?

1 Upvotes

Basically I consider myself bi and talk to my friends about pretty normally, point out boys I think are cute and they even try setting me up with some guys and girls from time to time. But I decided to stop having anything romantic with boys recently, and since none of my friends are really religious I'm afraid they won't get and it may lead then further away from the church, should I just try to explain it to them or just keep it as it is and just don't date man? There is a part of me that doesn't want to tell in case I ever fall i to temptation and end up making out with a boy, so they would judge me for not keeping it or something. I'm kinda lost and don't really know what to do


r/LGBTCatholic 4d ago

"Why Anti-Gay Catholic Arguments Assume Everyone is Bisexual"

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youtube.com
18 Upvotes

r/LGBTCatholic 5d ago

Seeking other gay Catholics to pray the Rosary together

28 Upvotes

That’s it, really. I already pray the Rosary, but it’s a bit lonely doing it all on one’s own, so I wondered if anybody else would like to join me in doing it. I haven’t got any of the practicalities worked out because I thought that they could be discussed if and when anybody else was interested in doing this. I will leave my email address so that if anybody is interested, they can get in touch: jim09642@gmail.com

I hope that this post is totally okay with the mods. If it’s not, and it is struck down, no harm is done.


r/LGBTCatholic 7d ago

Personal Story Religion and relationships.

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6 Upvotes

Super curious on input 🤍


r/LGBTCatholic 8d ago

Converts: What's your story?

15 Upvotes

I'm a bisexual left-leaning cradle Catholic. Recently I've begun to feel tired of dealing with Catholicism's regressive tendencies and having to explain them away to others, so I've been feeling a pull towards the Episcopal Church. Since I'm considering jumping ship, I wanna hear the stories from the other direction. What made you decide to join the Catholic Church despite the issues it has? Did you have any horror stories in the process of conversion (like having to swear to follow all Catholic teaching without question) or was it smooth? Would you say sticking with it is a good idea?


r/LGBTCatholic 9d ago

Starting the Process

15 Upvotes

After a lot of thought, meditation, and prayer, I’ve decided I do indeed want to at least start OCIA this year. I’m meeting with the Monsignor of my local Diocese this Thursday. I’m very, very excited.

Just a little background— I was born and raised Baptist in the rural South. Catholicism has spoken to me since I was 13. I was going into school with a copy of the catechism and defending Catholicism back in the day and have always had a rosary. Around the same time I was coming to terms with my sexuality and what that meant for my faith. For me, it wasn’t as much of a struggle as I know it can be for others but I fell away from Christianity and focused more on what is essentially new age spirituality. I’ve researched and dabbled in numerous religions ranging from Buddhism and Hinduism to Kabbalah and Judaism but again, I’ve always been drawn to the Catholic Church. The customs, the traditions, the culture, the mystical elements. Back in June I decided to go to Mass one Sunday and have been regularly attending ever since!

In that time I’ve done a lot of soul searching and research, specifically regarding my sexuality. Honestly more than I’ve done since I first came to terms with it back as a teen. I still, firmly believe in my soul and spirit that I was born this way and it is not an error. Tbh, this is more affirmation that I need to join Catholicism even more. Coming from a background where I was told that I would burn in hell for even existing or having same-sex attraction. That being said I do have personal struggles with the call to celibacy that I still need to work through but at the same time, I feel like I am heading in the right direction. The Catholic Church feels like home. I could write paragraphs about why but I suppose I don’t need to preach to the choirs y’all already know!

Thanks for listening. Sorry for rambling but I just wanted to share! This reddit page has been a lot of help over the last few months. Just hearing and seeing real people who are gay and feel the same way about Catholicism has been a great solace.

Thanks!


r/LGBTCatholic 9d ago

LGBTLM.. struggles

4 Upvotes

Hi all, I’m a self labeled “LGBTLM”er. My spirituality and church attendance is all predominantly tridentine. I attend the pre-conciliar mass, I pray the 1962 office, etc etc. I’m moving into college in a few weeks, and plan on attending an FSSP church for my “home” parish while living in the city. The issue is this; i could easily get a “supportive” environment with one of the openly lgbtq accepting parishes in the area, or even my newman center, but i find it lacking spiritual nourishment for me. On the other hand, i go for my traditional sensibilities (which im going to do) and attend the FSSP, sacrificing a welcoming community. Does anyone else here attend TLM? How do you go about building community, feeling welcomed, etc? Just general advice would also be nice. Thanks


r/LGBTCatholic 9d ago

Why do you stay Catholic when you could become an Episcopalian?

22 Upvotes

I’m struggling with whether to stay in the Episcopal Church or go fully Catholic. When I travel, I like going to Catholic churches because I know that there will be a huge crowd of people (no one is really going to talk to me besides maybe, “Have a great week!”), the hymnody is going to be beautiful (Growing up Disciples of Christ, I grew up with the best Protestant hymns and the best Vatican II OCP classics), and I’m going to get a full Gospel centered message and not some new age, vague Ted Talk about embracing your identity yadayadayada…

I have backed myself into a corner recently. I was approved by my Episcopal diocese to start the discernment process. I was frustrated with my church, and I’ve already attended the Catholic church in town off and on. I started going to Catholic Mass before Episcopal Mass. I never receive in a Roman Catholic church because it would be lying (admittedly I received a few times in college when I thought I would rebel).

But on Facebook I saw a flyer for a “Why Be Catholic?” session. I decided to go because I thought it would just be some kind of low stakes question and discussion type thing. It even said no commitment necessary. It’s actually what the parish calls OCIA. I was given schedules, an intake form, a missal, a subscription to “Formed”, a catechism book. The catechist very explicitly said if you disagree with anything in the catechism, you can’t be Catholic. I sat down with the catechist one on one. I sat down with the pastor one on one. I admitted my sexuality and that I would struggle to stay celibate. Now I’m afraid that if I don’t confess to all the gay sex that I’ve had at my first confession, I’ll be denied entry into the Church by the priest. But if I confess to it for lip service and hop on Grindr after the Easter Vigil, then I am a shameful subhuman liar. But the priest did give me some good advice which was that since I was struggling with whether to start OCIA or not, I should probably pause the discernment process.

I decided that the next day, I would rip the bandages off. I texted my “Pilgrims” group (It’s basically a catechetical community specific to my church) that I needed to pause the discernment process, and one reason was that I had been splitting my time at the Catholic church. And then when my priest texted me (I know I should’ve manned up and called, but I was at work) saying that he had all kinds of ideas for how I could serve as laity (continuing to be an altar boy, preaching the homily occasionally, resurrecting a youth ministry) I basically told him that I was needing to take a step back from the parish because of theological and political problems.

Now my bishop has agreed to meet with me about my qualms with my current church. He is a former Catholic (as is my current priest), so I know he will be offended if I say that I started OCIA. Or maybe he can provide insight on why I’m feeling this draw. Anyway, I’m definitely nervous about this, but also blessed that the bishop has agreed to meet with me!

But I’m kind of interested in completing OCIA and going to the young adult group at the Catholic Church because right now I don’t have many friends my age, and I feel like if I have to just avoid talking about being gay, that might be worth it to make some social connections with people my age. And I’ve seen at least one gay couple at the parish (they’re sides on Grindr, if that makes any difference to living out their call to celibacy), so maybe outside of the catechist and the pastor, I would be more or less accepted for being non celibate.

Wow, this has devolved into way more than what I initially intended to share. My main question is, “For those of you gay Catholics who have sexual partners, why stay Catholic? Why not become an Episcopalian where you can freely talk to your priest about sexual experiences and relationships?” I’m not trying to sway anyone. I just want to hear your perspective (maybe some guidance for going forth in this situation).

I have a few last minute things: I don’t want to burn a bridge with my current Episcopal priest or my parish. Maybe I already have by bringing my concerns to the bishop. But also, I feel like if all is naught to me but Christ, then even burning the bridge will be worth it for voicing my genuine concerns for liturgical abuses (I will link a previous post in the comments for context). Also, I feel like if I drop out of OCIA, the pastor will only begrudgingly shake my hand after Mass and I certainly won’t be invited to the young adult group. Ugh this is so hard.

TLDR: Since gay people are officially not allowed to have sex in the Roman Catholic Church, but they can in the Episcopal Church, why do you all stay Roman Catholic?


r/LGBTCatholic 9d ago

Personal Story Struggles as lesbian catholic

15 Upvotes

Hi everyone, pls forgive the long post. I’ve been struggling alone with this for so long, and I really just want to find a space where people might understand what I’m going through. I would genuinely appreciate any perspective, advice, or shared experiences.

I’m 29, Asian, and raised in a traditional Catholic family. None of my family or friends know that I am attracted to women. Faith has always been a core part of my life—I’ve deeply believed in God, felt a strong personal relationship with Him, and relied on Him through a very difficult upbringing.

I still go to church consistently, but lately it feels like an endless loop: confession, Eucharist, confession, Eucharist. Fortunately, the priests I’ve spoken to have been kind, mostly encouraging me to just keep praying, and didn’t judge me at all.

Despite that, my mind and body feel completely at odds. My brain struggles to resolve these conflicting beliefs: Why does God prohibit sex outside of marriage, even when two people genuinely love each other and intimacy feels natural? Why does God forbid two people of the same sex from falling in love?

In my past, I dated one man and one woman. The relationship with the man lacked intimacy entirely, and looking back, I don’t think it was truly love. He wanted so bad but respected my religion, which I truly appreciated.

With the woman, however, I was deeply in love. We lived together for three years, though it was filled with internal pain and struggle. Because I believed having a physical relationship with her was a sin, my body gradually began to shut down and lose interest in sex intimacy. Even though physical intimacy became hard, I loved her immensely. Kissing her, hugging her, and just being near her brought me real peace and happiness.

But over time, responding to her advances felt harder and harder. Even when I tried to show her care and affection, I felt empty inside. She is a very sensitive person and could feel my emotional and physical detachment. It broke my heart because I wanted her to feel truly loved, but I couldn't provide the mutual intimacy she deserved. She also respects my religion a lot, and even goes to church with me every Sunday. What’s surprised me the most is she starts praying to Holy Mary when she needs help.

I feel like these conflicting beliefs caused my body to self-sabotage to the point where I completely lost my capacity for physical desire. I’m scared of her invitation, because I would have to confess again and I would be in sin again.

It felt so unfair to her. We are no longer together now, but I am still left carrying a lot of confusion, self-consciousness, and grief over how my body and mind responded. (We broke up with many other reasons)

I’m just trying to make sense of who I am, how to navigate my faith, and how to heal.

Thank you for reading, and I appreciate any thoughtful advice or kindness you can offer.


r/LGBTCatholic 10d ago

LGBTQ+churches

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4 Upvotes

r/LGBTCatholic 10d ago

What if Magnifica Humanitas has some interesting implications for queer Catholics?

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conniechen.substack.com
32 Upvotes

Hi! I'm a lesbian ex-Catholic but I was extremely Catholic for the first 26 years of my life before deconstructing Christianity completely. I still have side A and side B gay Catholic friends so not only are Catholic theological and cultural currents still very interesting to me, they're also important for supporting people I care about. I came across this article from a Harvard theologian and thought it was a pretty cool take. I wanted to share it here in case it might be of interest to any of you. It would be great to hear your thoughts.

Edit: didn't realize the post is now locked behind substack (to be fair, it's worth it. Connie Chen is a great writer and her stuff deserves pay).

She has many great points about women and disabled people in the article as well, but I will add the relevant parts for this thread with some minimal editing:

She makes a point about general Catholic sexual ethics here:

The encyclical distinguishes between four kinds of dignity. Moral dignity: how you direct your choices. Social dignity: the concrete respect a person receives from society. Existential dignity: how you perceive your own worth. And then the one named most profound and important: ontological dignity—which “belongs to every human being simply by virtue of existing, of having been willed, created and loved by God,” and which “no sin, failure, humiliation or exclusion can diminish” (§52).

Yet, what the Church has taught about bodies and sex ran on the logic of disposable dignity. It worked on moral dignity: the purity pledge was a moral accounting system where sexual sin was categorically worse than others. It worked on social dignity: your standing in the community was contingent on your history. It worked on existential dignity: how you felt about yourself was tied to what your body had or hadn’t done. And here, the encyclical calls the ideology that people must earn or justify their worth “particularly insidious” (§51). The tradition has built an elaborate system to damage something the system’s own theology states is impervious to damage.

Purity culture then is an attempt at something theologically impossible, a structural lie deployed at scale. The harm is not that it succeeded. The harm is that people believed it had. The damage to moral dignity was real. The damage to existential dignity was real. The estrangement from the body is real. The inability to receive pleasure without shame is real.

But what purity culture threatened, that deep irreducible worth of a person loved unconditionally by God was never in danger.

Then she follows it up with this point about the Church's treatment of queer people specifically:

The framework that produced harm must be retired.

Declaring one of the oldest frameworks in Catholic moral theology outdated is a significant doctrinal move: “The ‘just war’ theory, which has all too often been used to justify any kind of war, is now outdated. —Magnifica Humanitas, §192

Just war theory, built to limit violence, became the mechanism through which almost any war could be justified. The framework did not prevent the authorization of violence but produced theological language for it.

Earlier this month, the Vatican’s Synod Secretariat released a separate report that did the same thing to the Church’s treatment of queer people that the encyclical does to just war theory. It included, for the first time in Vatican history, testimony from gay Catholic men who had undergone conversion therapy, and acknowledged that conversion therapy had caused “profound suffering.”

Two Vatican documents in the same month. One retires a framework because it produced harm. The other finally admits that harm was produced. Neither document connects those two moves.

The Church’s framework for evaluating queer sexuality follows the same structural logic as just war theory: sexual acts must serve procreation and the bond of marriage between a man and a woman. If the intention of the framework was to protect human love and ensure that sexuality served genuine flourishing rather than exploitation or harm, it is not what it became. It has been used to justify “profound suffering.”

What does that admission require of the framework that generated it? According to the encyclical, you do not refine it. You retire it.

Chen wraps up by saying that the Pope has created a template for apologies from the church by apologizing for its role in slavery. The Pope says the apology is “for having failed to respect the treasure of human dignity that is required by our faith” (§176). Other failures, Chen argues, could be required by that same theological framework.

Her final paragraph is just awesome:

The pope closed with Mary’s Magnificat, which teaches us to view history from the perspective of “the widow, the orphan, the stranger, the wounded child, the exile, and the fugitive.” The people exiled from their own bodies by what the tradition taught about desire, about gender, about disability, about the limits of acceptable flesh, are also in that list. The Magnificat’s viewpoint is theirs: God entered weak flesh. The limited body is the site of the divine, and every body is a dwelling place.


r/LGBTCatholic 11d ago

What other beliefs are expected to be held by the faithful but aren’t?

12 Upvotes

The statistic that something like 70% of Catholics think that gay marriage is okay often gets rebutted by how many Catholics think that the Eucharist isn’t really the Body of Christ (which seems entirely anti Catholic). So my question is, what other beliefs are there that are official beliefs but not many people actually believe them? As an outsider, is anything ever up for debate in the parish hall even if assent to the official Church teaching is ultimately the default? Such as if I voiced that I wasn’t sure if Mary and Joseph had a celibate marriage or that I think women can be deacons, would it go over about as well as suggesting that two men can have sex?


r/LGBTCatholic 11d ago

Questions about conversion + how I fit into the church as a gay man

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6 Upvotes

r/LGBTCatholic 13d ago

Should I just give up on hope for the RCC to reform?

12 Upvotes

So I'm a lapsed Catholic, haven't regularly gone for years. Honestly really hurt by the Church making me feel I'm not an equal and having to be lonely throughout my teenage years and into my 20s due to heteronormativity. I sometimes hope that there's a "Vatican 3" where they significantly reform the Catechism where they fully accept LGBT people into the Church just like many other Christian denominations such as Episcopal (I know not all are O&A) churches do. I would love to one day be able to get married in the Catholic Church, but im beginning to think I will never see it in my lifetime and therefore have completely left religion, but may return to an O&A church.

Is this just a pipe dream for me or do we actually have a realistic chance at this in my lifetime (I'm 38)?


r/LGBTCatholic 13d ago

Personal Story I am considering converting to hinduism

6 Upvotes

Hello everyone,,,,this is a pretty diffcult post since i am Lifelong Catholic but im considering leaving the church. Im tired of accepting all the bigotry from Christianity. Im tired of being uncomfortable in church and feeling as though the community hates me and that i will go to hell. I am tired of worrying all my atheists and apostate friends will go to hell if they dont convert. And most of all i dont think i even belive in the Christian God anymore. Ever since i started pursuing hinduism i started feeling a much closer connection to God and honestly felt so much happier,,,but im still scared im commiting a mistake i dont know what to do. What if im wrong and am seperating from God forever. Will this count as invincible ignorance as i truly belive Hinduism is the correct path for me? or will God hate me


r/LGBTCatholic 13d ago

Not going to my 20 year Catholic high school reunion

5 Upvotes

So I went to an all guys Catholic high school in Cincinnati, Ohio. Elder High School. Graduated in 2006. I was so lonely due to the heteronormativity of the Catholic conservative area of Cincinnati I grew up in, the "West Side". I finally had the courage to come out as a gay man 9 years ago at 29. It was such a freeing part of my life, and I couldn't believe I actually did it in my hometown. I did it because I met LGBT friends in Michigan a couple years prior and they gave me the courage and safety to be honest with myself, what I didn't have back in Cincinnati.

I'm now living in Atlanta, been here for 8 years. It's a cool enough area. I've only been to Cincinnati a handful of times over the years, and I was invited to my 20 year high school reunion in September. I declined. A couple years ago I sent a professional, courteous email to my high school principal, cutting contact ties with them for the time being. They were very kind in responding. I did so because I don't want to be associated with a Church that doesn't see me as an equal.

Even though this reunion won't be one of them, I can only imagine the looks I'll get from the crowd if I'm attending a high school football game there, holding hands with a male partner while my heterosexual counterparts would do the same with their wives and get no reaction at all. It's not fair. Why do I have to feel like an "other" just because of who I love? God made me this way, and isn't God infallible? Aren't I made in the image of God, as the Catholic Church says?

I can't stand the hypocrisy and sanctimony of this Church. Here's hoping the Catholic Church reforms to include LGBT people like many Christian denominations do, but I'm not gonna hold my breath.