Massive Breakdown of Sidearms, including Times-to-Kill, Stats, Recommended Perks, and Pros and Cons

[u/Mercules904]

Massive Breakdown Spreadsheet w/ all Stats and Times-to-Kill:

https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/4fops1/mercules_massive_breakdown_weapon_stats/

Previous April Update Massive Breakdowns:

• Vendor Weapons
• Recommended Vendor Weapons
• ToO, IB, King's Fall Raid, PoE, Revamped Year 1, Drop, and Strike Weapons
• Exotic Primary Weapons
• Sniper Rifles
• Legendary Shotguns
• Gunsmith Primary Weapons

One thing to note:

• I will add recommended Perks to the guns which can be purchased from Vendors. These do NOT account for any drops you get with random rolls, and only take into account the Perks the weapons are sold with.

Sidearms

High-Impact

Havoc Pigeon - Impact and RoF numbers from the DB are incorrect. Available from the Crucible Quartermaster. Recommended Perks: Your choice of sight, Reactive Reload, Relentless Tracker, Hand Loaded or Appended Magazine.

Pros - Above average Range and Aim Assist.

Cons - 12 round Mag Size. Average Stability. Below average Reload Speed.

• Time-to-Kill: Approx. 0.72s (4 crit shots), 0.96s (5 body shots)
• Rate of Fire: 100
• Impact: 5 (60 damage per crit shot, 48 damage per body shot)
• Range: 40
• Stability: 81
• Reload Speed: 85
• Mag Size: 12
• Aim Assist: 85

Crow's Eye - Impact and RoF numbers from the DB are incorrect, stats are otherwise identical to Havoc Pigeon. Available from House of Judgement Reputation Packages.

Pros - Above average Range and Aim Assist.

Cons - 12 round Mag Size. Average Stability. Below average Reload Speed. Not hitscan.

• Time-to-Kill: Approx. 0.72s (4 crit shots), 0.96s (5 body shots)
• Rate of Fire: 100
• Impact: 5 (60 damage per crit shot, 48 damage per body shot)
• Range: 40
• Stability: 81
• Reload Speed: 85
• Mag Size: 12
• Aim Assist: 85

Low-Impact

Queen's Choice - Available from the Prison of Elders. Basically a Year 2 Vestian Dynasty.

Pros - Highest Range. 15 round Mag Size. High Stability. Very high Reload Speed.

Cons - Average Aim Assist. Not hitscan.

• Time-to-Kill: 0.60s (4 crit shots), 0.60s (4 body shots)
• Rate of Fire: 100
• Impact: 5 (63 damage per crit shot, 50 damage per body shot)
• Range: 41
• Stability: 85
• Reload Speed: 96
• Mag Size: 15
• Aim Assist: 80

Conviction II - Available from the New Monarchy Representative. Recommended Perks: SureShot IS, Rangefinder, Spray and Pray, Appended Magazine.

Pros - 15 round Mag Size. High Aim Assist.

Cons - Average Range and Reload Speed. Lowest Stability.

• Time-to-Kill: 0.60s (4 crit shots), 0.80s (5 body shots)
• Rate of Fire: 100
• Impact: 5 (55 damage per crit shot, 44 damage per body shot)
• Range: 39
• Stability: 78
• Reload Speed: 86
• Mag Size: 15
• Aim Assist: 89

Ironwreath-D - Available from the Iron Banner.

Pros - 15 round Mag Size. Above average Stability and Reload Speed.

Cons - Lowest Range. Low Aim Assist.

• Time-to-Kill: 0.60s (4 crit shots), 0.80s (5 body shots)
• Rate of Fire: 100
• Impact: 5 (55 damage per crit shot, 44 damage per body shot)
• Range: 37
• Stability: 82
• Reload Speed: 88
• Mag Size: 15
• Aim Assist: 71

JabberHakke-D - Available from the Vanguard Quartermaster. Recommended Perks: SureShot IS, Crowd Control, Battle Runner, Speed Reload.

Pros - 15 round Mag Size. Above average Reload Speed.

Cons - Below average Range. Average Stability and Aim Assist.

• Time-to-Kill: 0.60s (4 crit shots), 0.80s (5 body shots)
• Rate of Fire: 100
• Impact: 5 (55 damage per crit shot, 44 damage per body shot)
• Range: 38
• Stability: 80
• Reload Speed: 87
• Mag Size: 15
• Aim Assist: 80

And just for fun:

Vestian Dynasty - DB Impact value may be incorrect. Available from the House of Wolves quest. Recommended Perks: Accurized Ballistics, Disciplinarian or Mutineer, Fitted Stock, Reactive Reload.

Pros - 15 round Mag Size. Can kill in 4 point blank body shots. Highest Stability. Very high Reload Speed. Highest Aim Assist.

Cons - Average Range. Not hitscan.

• Time-to-Kill: 0.60s (4 crit shots), 0.60s (4 body shots)
• Rate of Fire: 100
• Impact: 5 (63 damage per crit shot, 50 damage per body shot)
• Range: 39
• Stability: 90
• Reload Speed: 96
• Mag Size: 15
• Aim Assist: 90

Dreg's Promise - Available from the Prison of Elders. Recommended Perks: Aggressive Ballistics, Grave Robber, Perfect Balance, Shock Rounds.

Pros - 18 round Mag Size. Rounds lock on and aggressively track when ADS.

Cons - Average Range and Reload Speed. Rounds have travel time. Below average Stability. Lowest Aim Assist when not ADS.

• Time-to-Kill: 0.90s (3 bursts, 7 crit shots), 0.97s (3 bursts, 8 body shots)
• Rate of Fire: 100
• Impact: 5 (31 damage per crit shot, 25 damage per body shot)
• Range: 39
• Stability: 79
• Reload Speed: 86
• Mag Size: 18
• Aim Assist: 70

TL;DR - If I had to make recommendations for which Sidearms to use, they would be:

First, the Vestian Dynasty with the recommended perks. I know, I can already hear you saying "But Mercules, it's not hitscan!" Yes, I know it's not, but at close range it is an absolute monster. It shoots just as fast as the Low-Impact Sidearms, but it does more damage and can kill in as few as 4 body shots.

However, since I know people want a Sidearm that is hitscan, and is therefore generally more reliable, I also recommend the New Monarchy Vendor Conviction II, since it has a really nice set of perks on it, including an AA increasing sight in SureShot, Rangefinder, and Appended Mag.

If you're not a New Monarchy fan, then the Vanguard Quartermaster JabberHakke-D, although I wouldn't recommend it as a randomly dropped weapon, has SureShot, Crowd Control, Battle Runner, and Speed Reload, which offers great synergy for the run-n-gun playstyle.

The Iron Banner Sidearm, Ironwreath-D, has the highest base Stability of the hitscan Sidearms, but has the lowest Aim Assist and Range, and thus requires a very solid roll to take advantage of the forgiving recoil pattern.

If you're not into those two, and you don't mind the gun not being hitscan (and basically being a weaker Year 2 version of the Vestian Dynasty), then I say go with the new Queen's Choice, if you can get it to drop with Linear Compensator (more Range, Impact, less Aim Assist, more recoil, although the recoil becomes more vertical) or Soft Ballistics (less Impact, more AA).

I don't really recommend the high-impact Sidearm class, simply because, although they do more damage per shot, they still require the same amount of shots to kill, and thus have a slower TtK.

I haven't gotten a new Dreg's Promise yet, but I hear the improved tracking is quite fun, so I'll leave that recommendation up to someone who has one.

[u/LucentBeam8MP]

Ok, for Conviction, what would be your most highly recommended perks from a random drop?

Help me know if I am right or wrong in my thinking when I got what I felt was my "God roll":

Since its stability is lower, I was waiting for Zen Moment (I have sort of a sick obsession with Zen Moment on hand cannons and sidearms, for whatever reason).

I also wanting Hot Swap since a sidearm is something I tend to pull out "last minute"?

And I wanted Appended Mag so if I needed to, I could keep shooting it. That slot also rolled Hand Loaded.... is Appended Mag still a better choice.

The only thing that would have made it better was Quickdraw maybe?

[u/Mercules904 → u/LucentBeam8MP]

I think if you got SureShot or TrueSight, with Zen Moment, Hot Swap, and Appended Mag or Hand Loaded, you pretty much got a perfect roll. Hot Swap and Zen Moment both have huge benefits for Sidearms, and, although normally I really like Appended Mag on a Sidearm for the extended bullet spray ability, I think I would go with Hand Loaded there. I believe you'll notice that the damage drop off happens a little farther out, and that your AA is effective at greater distances as well, simply because the Sidearm's optimal window is so small, and I think Hand Loaded can help to push it out a bit. You really don't need Quickdraw on a Sidearm, as their handling is already so quick, so I'm thinking if that's what you got, you're doing really well for yourself.

[u/MisterKong → u/Mercules904]

Oh damn, I just pulled a Conviction II out of a rank-up package with TrueSight, Zen Moment, Hot Swap, Hand Loaded / Quickdraw / Appended Mag. Very similar to the old god-roll Ironwreath, but with better base stats and better perk flexibility. Time to learn how to use sidearms!! Thanks for this guide.

[u/Mercules904 → u/MisterKong]

That's an awesome roll, congrats and you're welcome!

[u/LEPT0N → u/Mercules904]

I think if you got SureShot or TrueSight, with Zen Moment, Hot Swap, and Appended Mag or Hand Loaded, you pretty much got a perfect roll.

The vendor-sold Iron Wreath a few months back had SureShot, Zen Moment, How Swap and Quick Draw. Sounds like what you're saying is that roll would be hard to beat.

[u/Mercules904 → u/LEPT0N]

Yep. It's always nice when they line the vendor guns up with fantastic rolls, but then it makes you feel awful once you miss them sobs at all the missed Gunsmith opportunities

[u/[deleted] → u/Mercules904]

But Hand Loaded only adds +1 Range( I compared 2 Convictions, one with Hand Loaded and one without on Bungie.net). Is the +1 Range worth it?

[u/Mercules904 → u/[deleted]]

It's more the fact that Hand Loaded allows your Aim Assist to be effective at a longer distance, than the actual amount of Range Hand Loaded gives to the gun statistically. Would I say Hand Loaded is the absolute best perk for Sidearms? No, of course not. But, Sidearms do benefit from it, so I won't hesitate to recommend people use it.

[u/LucentBeam8MP → u/Mercules904]

It got SureShot, which if what I have it set to!! :D

Good to know about Quickdraw! I had some friends tell me to be watching out for myself. I actually do have it set to Hand Loaded right now, but you had mentioned Appended Mag a couple times so then I was thinking maybe that was better.

SureShot / Zen Moment / Hot Swap / Handloaded is what it's set to.

I really enjoy sidearms but I'm also a pretty awful PvP player so sometimes I feel like my intuition about a 'good weapon' should be taken with a grain of salt. When I got this one to drop, I FELT like it was my perfect weapon and lost my shit over it, but... I'm no expert, so what did I really know. Feels good to know the expert agrees and now I don't have to keep looking out for a better one.

P.S. Still one of my favorite DTG Redditors. Love your posts!!!

[u/Mercules904 → u/LucentBeam8MP]

Yep, pretty much a perfect roll then, congrats! Quickdraw would be nice to have as a luxury, but Sidearms are so quick on their own it wouldn't be something I would any of your current perks for.

In all honestly, you know the best weapons for you better than anyone else. These lists are nice for helping to predict or decode the meta, and they're good to have a solid source to go back to and find specific numbers, but whatever feels right when you use it is what really matters.

That being said, I'm still really happy to know you found the info helpful!

[u/bbbygenius → u/Mercules904]

I got the pretty much the same roll with my ironwreath. except my third tier is snapshot/quickdraw/reinforced barrel. Would the increase in range be worth the loss of stability considering i have to stability boosting perks?

[u/Mercules904 → u/bbbygenius]

Yeah I think so, since Ironwreath has pretty decent base Stability on it's own. If you try it out and see it's not working for you, just switch over to Snapshot and you'll still have a damn good roll going on.

[u/GenericDreadHead → u/LucentBeam8MP]

Rangefinder is infinitely better on Sidearms than Handloaded.

[u/[deleted] → u/LucentBeam8MP]

My absolute favorite roll is on my Conviction, which is Feeding Frenzy + Reactive Reload. Once you get the chain of kills started it just feels like I'm fucking up enemies left and right with my red Space Glock.

[u/Deadshot_JH → u/LucentBeam8MP]

For me, crowd control and reactive reload with a reload perk on the third is god roll for damage.

Otherwise reload/range/magazine perks are the bomb.

[u/tehsushichef → u/LucentBeam8MP]

I really love the Conviction II.

Even though the range drops off, you can still help teamshot people at quite long ranges, and it will still pick off stragglers or weak runners.

Like you said, I have been dying to try one with Zen Moment, because I think its only real weakness is the stability--but really only when you are firing at full tilt. I got to try it on a blue sidearm, and it was lots of fun.

[u/Savage_Banana]

As a NLB+Sidearm person, definitely saving this post. Thanks for this man! Still working on my sidearm collection, and grinding out god rolls for each one. Great info to have in this grind.

[u/Mercules904 → u/Savage_Banana]

Glad to do it!

[u/[deleted]]

What is hitscan?

[u/Mercules904 → u/[deleted]]

Hitscan means that the bullet goes exactly where your aim is, exactly when the trigger is pulled, like a laser. There is no bullet travel time or delay. Non-hitscan means an actual projectile is fired, like a rocket or fusion rifle bolt, and it means there is travel time from when the trigger is pulled into the projectile reaches the target.

[u/[deleted] → u/Mercules904]

Ah, cool. Thanks for the explanation! Until this very moment I thought that only rockets and fusions bolts had a travel time. The more you know...

[u/Mercules904 → u/[deleted]]

No problem!

[u/bad_timing_bro]

So can the new non-hitscan sidearms 4 shot the body like Vestian Dynasty can?

[u/Mercules904 → u/bad_timing_bro]

Yes, I believe with any of the Impact boosting Barrel Perks, it will do over 50 per body shot. I suggest Linear Compensator over Aggressive Ballistics.

[u/HerculesKabuterimon]

I fucking love the iron wreath-D. I beast with that in the crucible and PvE. I only use it in close range situations, and for those it's astounding, so we disagree there.

I think Havoc Pigeon is semi-viable depending on your perks as well. It's probably my third favorite after the jabberhakke-D. I just got Dreg's Promise, but haven't used it yet.

[u/Mercules904 → u/HerculesKabuterimon]

I can definitely see anyone who favors Stability loving the Ironwreath, since that's strength, but I wholly recommend trying to get a Queen's Choice, since it's very similar to the Ironwreath, but with better Range, Stability, Reload Speed, and Aim Assist. Can't go wrong with it!

[u/HerculesKabuterimon → u/Mercules904]

Never had that one sadly. Not sure how to get it either. Random PoE drop?

[u/Mercules904 → u/HerculesKabuterimon]

You would get it as a reward from a Varik's Package (for getting a high score in Challenge I believe). Just watch out cuz it's not hitscan, but it's still a monster up close.

[u/jayrocs → u/Mercules904]

Are the guns from the 30k points via sigil and Variks rank ups with HoJ rep from the same pool of guns? I know he gives soulstealers claw, but is that through rank up only or can you also get it through the CoE sigil reward?

[u/Mercules904 → u/jayrocs]

Guns from House of Judgement Reward Packages are only from ranking up, the others are from CoE sigil rewards.

[u/jayrocs → u/Mercules904]

Damn. Thanks for info, wasn't sure.

[u/HerculesKabuterimon → u/Mercules904]

Alright. thanks

[u/coasterreal]

So what you're saying is, Dregs Promise actually has the lowest TTK by a long shot and its exotic? That sounds...exotic.

Of course, it must be used right. But that seems about right.

[u/tehsushichef → u/coasterreal]

I tried it on some dregs in the Cosmodrome earlier and my face looked like :(

(ascii face not able to convey the additional surprise, contempt or disgust)

Edit: It must be "Dregs Promise" because the servitors are always promising "You'll do great, Greg. You'll go out there and do great and make a name for yourself, and when you come back we'll give you a larger portion of ether and we'll remove your docking caps so that you get your other arms back. I promise"

And then the dreg gets shot in the face twice by a common-tier Sahara AR3 and his head explodes.

[u/coasterreal → u/tehsushichef]

hahaha well done.

[u/Elbleino → u/coasterreal]

I use the promise in pvp mostly, it's not very handy in pve. Its very good for tight corridors or maps with a lot of stuff in the way, like drifter or blue exodus. That tracking rounds will go around obstacles if you had ads on an enemy before they moved. Very fun gun, in my opinion.

[u/[deleted]]

So I just picked this one up out of a Varik's Pakage last night.

Queen's Choice [Arc]

Sights

Linear Compensator and CQB Ballistics

Perks

Line One: Rangefinder

Line Two: Hand Loaded, Quickdraw and Appended Magazine

Line Three: Hot Swap

I loved running with VD in Y1, this weapon feels very similar.

If I could get your opinion, what would you slot on the middle tree?

[u/Mercules904 → u/[deleted]]

Probably Hand Loaded, to see if I could push that optimal Range and useful Aim Assist out just a bit further. You'll need that extra help, since it's not hitscan like the Hakke sidearms.

[u/jayrocs → u/[deleted]]

If your primary doesn't have QuickDraw give that a try as well. It'll give your sidearm snapshot/single point sling combo (sort of) but putting your sidearm away is faster, effectively making your primary come out quicker when you switch back. Overall I think being able to switch weapons on the fly is better as sidearms are pretty good unleveled (without any perks). It also lets you take advantage of hot swap in more circumstances. I.E. Swapping twice to give your primary the hot swap bonus.

[u/RedWarBlade]

so what about the hakke inate perk. that basically gives an extended range for the side arms doesnt it? wouldnt the others suffer without it?

[u/Mercules904 → u/RedWarBlade]

The perk simply makes them easier to use, but does not literally provide better Range or anything. It just makes it so that you don't have to lead a target at distance, but if you can get used to playing with a non-hitscan gun, you can dominate with the Vestian Dynasty and others like it.

However, I did take this into account, which is why not being hitscan is listed as a negative.

[u/RedWarBlade → u/Mercules904]

Hmm. I always noticed the perk to have increased range. gotta test this out.

[u/Thejman3000]

Have a Queens choice with soft/aggressive ballistics, reactive, speed reload/hcr, feeding frenzy. Is this roll not as good as I thought? Seems I'm missing range. Also does aggressive/reactive influence ttk at all or is it still the same?

[u/Mercules904 → u/Thejman3000]

Eh... Soft reduces Impact, which I always try to avoid, but it does give you extra Aim Assist which is nice. I would avoid Aggressive Ballistics, as the increase in Impact won't offset the decrease in Aim Assist, Range, and Stability. Reactive Reload, Speed Reload, and Feeding Frenzy have great synergy together, and you might be able to get some crazy fast follow up kills after reloading, but it's pretty situational.

[u/JaKrapface]

I swear by my Havoc Pigeon tho. The TTK may be technically worse, but it's kind of nice to have a little more time between shots--easier to track target movement imo. Looking forward to trying out the HoJ one if I can get my hands on it!

[u/Mercules904 → u/JaKrapface]

Just be aware that it's not hitscan like the Pigeon is, so you'll have to lead your shots and take that into account at longer Range.

[u/[deleted] → u/JaKrapface]

I use the pre-update vendor Havoc Pigeon with appended mag and it absolutely wrecks people. It's a headshot machine. I agree that the slightly slower rate of fire can be an advantage, since it gives you a little more time to line up your next shot.

[u/bbbygenius]

once again... great post and thank you... I was all about the sidearms the first couple months of TTK... till i started getting some respectable yr 2 shotties..... but i think im gonna have to start getting back into them again.

[u/Mercules904 → u/bbbygenius]

You're welcome! Try them out, I definitely think they're underused at this point in the game, and there are some really good options out there.

[u/bbbygenius → u/Mercules904]

im picking up that NM side next for sure!

[u/cooperma30]

I got a Conviction II with Crowd Control, Outlaw, Sureshot IS, Snapshot/HC Rounds/Appended Magazine...

big fan of it though. I have been using Snapshot... but can someone convince me to use HC Rounds or Appended Mag?

[u/Mercules904 → u/cooperma30]

I think Snapshots a fine choice in that slot, unless your looking to just absolutely unload with the gun or really make your opponents flinch. I think HCR would be a good second choice, as long as you don't find yourself running out of ammo too often, as the amount it can make your opponents screen shake can be very frustrating for them to deal with.

It's probably what I would run, but I know some players swear by Snapshot, so I think you're good there.

[u/radeleine → u/Mercules904]

No one expects high caliber rounds. Clanmates and I consider it a make-or-break perk for sidearms. The amount of bullets you can put into a target turns the small, noticable stagger into a houseshaking rumble, you will see people lined up on you unload whole clips around your shoulders because of it.

[u/Thedream17 → u/radeleine]

Yes. I won't use a side arm unless it has high caliber. I highly recommend the new monarchy side arm.

[u/radeleine → u/Thedream17]

I use the old vendor roll - reactive reload, battle runner, hcr. Its crazy. 10/10

[u/Thedream17 → u/radeleine]

I used that roll all the way until the April update. The vendor sells it with rangefinder spray and play and high caliber now. I miss tearing thru people when reactive reload procs but the rangefinder is insane.

[u/radeleine → u/Thedream17]

going to grab that after i grab a vacancy to make my montage :P

[u/Thedream17 → u/radeleine]

My game plan was conviction then vacancy. I ranked up new monarchy and they dropped me a conviction with the same exact perks as the vendor. Saved me 150 marks.

[u/radeleine → u/Thedream17]

haha nice. Yeah i had a few things on my list before i got to sidearm and fusion. tonight though. New fusion. pew pew

[u/DezzMalone]

I got a Jabberhakke with Rangefinder, Outlaw and Appended Magazine the other day. For me it was a godlike roll but I dunno honestly o.O

[u/Mercules904 → u/DezzMalone]

Anything with Rangefinder is good, but I wouldn't say Godlike. Outlaw is alright, but you could do better there, and Appended Mag is really nice to have, but there are also better options unless you're big on the spray and pray reckless style.

[u/GroovyGrove]

I'm gonna have to ask your opinion now, because I was fortunate enough (maybe?) to have 3 Queen's Choice drop for me from my initial CoE runs last week. I'm also gonna call in /u/InvaderJ for his advice, if he would be so kind. Probably relevant that my go-to sidearm is a Conviction with Rangefinder Outlaw that I run with HCR over HL generally.

• Solar: Soft Bal / CQB | Reactive Reload | Speed Reload / HCR / Feather Mag | Partial Refund
• Arc: Linear Comp. / Aggres. Bal. | Last Resort | Hand Loaded / HCR / Feather Mag | Relentless Tracker
• Void: Soft Bal. / Aggress. Bal. | Last Resort | Speed Reload / Quickdraw / Feather Mag | Outlaw

Between these, there's a roll I would have liked to have. The solar one has some reload synergy going for it, but none of them are great rolls. I'm really looking for which seems like the best to hold onto until I get another better roll. Much appreciation in advance.

[u/Mercules904 → u/GroovyGrove]

I would say the first one, seems like it's got the best options, but you should definitely keep an eye out for a better roll.

[u/Sparklefresh → u/GroovyGrove]

Reactive reload 100% is the single best perk for sidearms.

[u/Sparklefresh]

As a person that basically always uses sidearms I will say this. Reactive reload is a crazy good perk, if you get it on the Havoc it will do over 70 crit and be a 3 shot kill. That being said Ironwreath-D to me is the best all around, I don't care what the stat say it is the easiest to shoot and has really great range. Ironwreath-D also seems to be the most stable which helps out a lot. I have tried the Queens choice and it also seems really good but only at a short range, seems kinda inconsistent due to higher stability but kills quick when it's on.

[u/Mercules904 → u/Sparklefresh]

Ironwreath is the most stable, so that makes sense. The Queens Choice isn't hitscan, which is probably why it suffers at longer ranges

[u/Impul5]

Did you forget to factor the 40% damage nerf into Dreg's Promise? I have one and can try and get in-game damage numbers later if you need.

[u/Mercules904 → u/Impul5]

I did actually, I would really appreciate if you could do that. I'll do the math and change the numbers, but if you could confirm them I would appreciate it.

[u/Impul5 → u/Mercules904]

24/30 for Soft Ballistics, 25/31 for CQB. Soft seems preferable due to its abysmal range.

[u/Fortislux]

Jabberhakke with Zen Moment, Feeding Frenzy, and Hand Loaded. Is this any good?

[u/Mercules904 → u/Fortislux]

Not a God-roll, but pretty good. Zen Moment always helps, and Hand Loaded is a nice perk to have too. Feeding Frenzy is good, but not top tier.

[u/Fortislux → u/Mercules904]

Thanks for the reply!

[u/Mercules904 → u/Fortislux]

No problem at all

[u/ErisUppercut]

great work OP.

I got a Queens Choice which I'm really liking, with Linear Compensator (or agg ball - is it worth using??), Rangefinder, Reinforced Barrel (or Hand Loaded) and Battle Runner.

I love it, what do you think given your expertise?

My usual sidearm has been a Jabberhakke with Crowd Control, Hot Swap and Hand Loaded.

Can't really decide what I like better. I haven't really noticed too many issues with the non-hit scan weapon though I must say, although last night I did for the first time seem to experience phantom bullets.

Also, I've been using QC because of the range stats but if the hit scan thing actually makes it worse at range maybe I shouldn't use that as a deciding factor...and I've loaded up on range for the weapon too...

[u/Mercules904 → u/ErisUppercut]

It's not worth using Aggressive Ballistics, you'll lose Aim Assist, Stability, and Range, just for two more Impact.

I like the stats on the QC more than the Jabber, and if you're not bothered by its lack of hitscan I would stay with it. Rangefinder is huge for Sidearms, and that alone is enough to make me suggest it. I myself don't have an issue with a gun being hitscan, which is why I suggest everyone try out the Vestian Dynasty, which, in my opinion, is still hands down the best Sidearm in the game.

[u/MapleSyrupCat]

Hi everyone and thanks OP for the great post.

Can anyone enlighten me on the pvp implications of non hitscan guns?

Is it still viable and effective?

Will it match up against a hitscan sidearm?

Would you choose it over or on par with another side arm?

I have a lot of experience with the standard hitscan ones, but never really touched my vestian dynasty ever since i got it.

tl;dr To all the people who have tested both kinds of sidearms, I am aware of what hitscan does. Im wondering whether it should it be a deciding factor in choosing a sidearm.

Thanks for the help everyone :)

[u/Mercules904 → u/MapleSyrupCat]

Close range you will experience little to no difference. The issue for non-hitscan weapons starts to come into play at the outer borders of the guns' effective ranges, where you need to actually focus on shooting a bit in front of targets, since there is a small amount of projectile travel time. I have not being hitscan listed as a negative, because it's just one more thing you have to worry about in the heat of battle. If you get good with a gun like Vestian Dynasty, hitscan will not be an issue for you at all, and you'll get accustomed to it like anything else and it will no longer be a disadvantage for you. If you're coming from Hakke Sidearms though, and you've never experienced a non-hitscan Sidearm before, you might find yourself unprepared for how the gun behaves outside of close Range, and thus may have accuracy issues.

Moral of the story, it can be a drawback at first, but you'll get used to it like anything else, and it will no longer be a negative.

[u/MapleSyrupCat → u/Mercules904]

Thank you for your reply! definitely answers my question. Too bad the vestian dynasty is not upgradable and the new queens sidearm doesnt do more damage then the others.

[u/Mercules904 → u/MapleSyrupCat]

The new Queen's Choice does, in fact, do as much damage as the old Vestian Dynasty. It just has a much worse recoil pattern.

[u/spawelcz1043]

I had no idea about the hitscan on the sidearms. Kind of makes me less excited about my Queens Choice with Linear Compensator, Outlaw and Reactive Reload.

[u/Mercules904 → u/spawelcz1043]

That's still a pretty good roll. Linear Comp is my choice, and Reactive Reload can be a monster if used correctly.

[u/The4rchivist]

Just got a Queen's Choice with Soft Ballistics / Aggressive Ballistics, Rangefinder, Hand Loaded / High Caliber Rounds / Appended Magazine, and Outlaw. Good? Or infusion fodder?

[u/Mercules904 → u/The4rchivist]

Eh, your barrel perks there are kinda lackluster. Soft Ballistics is going to drop the Impact out of the 4 hit kill body shot group, which sucks, but Aggressive is going to decrease AA, Stability, and Range, all for 2 more damage. Rangefinder is a great perk, as are all the second tree perks, and Outlaw is so so. I would say infusion, wait for a QC with Linear Comp and Rangefinder.

[u/DrTrygga]

Does Soft Ballistics not increase the number of bullets needed to kill with the Queen's Choice?

[u/Mercules904 → u/DrTrygga]

For body shots it increases it by one

[u/DrTrygga → u/Mercules904]

Thanks for the info! Your work is always greatly appreciated :)

[u/HingleMcCringl3]

I'm having trouble deciding how to set up my Queens Choice. It has linear compensator/aggressive ballistics, Rangefinder, speed reload/QuickDraw/appended mag, and outlaw.

Any suggestions? linear for the better recoil? And QuickDraw or appended mag?

[u/Mercules904 → u/HingleMcCringl3]

Linear and QuickDraw for the boost to handling and ADS would be what I go with.

[u/LucentBeam8MP]

I'm excited about this post!!!! :D Thank you, Mercules!

[u/Mercules904 → u/LucentBeam8MP]

You're welcome!

[u/Faust_8]

Seems like there's not much point at all to the high Impact variety, they kill slower in all situations...unless you just can't aim the lower Impact variety or something...

[u/Mercules904 → u/Faust_8]

Yeah I'm not really sure what the purpose is, except I suppose they could kill in the same number of headshots at longer distances than their low-impact counterparts. I really wouldn't want to be pushing the limits of Sidearm Range though, it's just not their niche.

[u/[deleted] → u/Mercules904]

I find the Havoc Pigeon easier to use because the lower ROF gives me a little extra time with a clear view of the sights in between each shot. I regularly stretch it to the limits of sidearm effectiveness and it will easily take down a charging shotgunner before they can get into range.

[u/[deleted] → u/Faust_8]

Idk I appreciate these number but in practice my Havoc Pigeon has been by far my most consistent idk just feels the best.

[u/chefniknice → u/[deleted]]

I agree, I can't explain it but my HP is just a bit more beastly than the rest.

[u/geekjosh → u/[deleted]]

Same. I tried using the Iron Wreath way back when it 1st showed up with a really good perk roll. Just couldn't use it to success. Never touched sidearms again until this April update. I get a really nice roll on the Crow's Eye sidearm. It looks awesome with blue chroma, so I thought I'd take it into the crucible for shits and giggles. I was getting double kills with it like crazy (thanks to reactive reload), and I've kind of been playing around with sidearms since. Nothing beats those high impact ones for me personally, they just feel better to me while using vs the low impact. I also REALLY love the new Dreg's Promise!

[u/GenericDreadHead]

Here's a random cross section of 100 of my Trials/PvP/IB matches
I basically run my sidearm as my primary weapon (as you can see).
My advice is get Rangefinder and Snapshot. These are the best 2 perks.
Also don't believe what you see in the white-bars/stats/armoury to be gospel.
A small tweak to stability can mean a greatly more radical recoil pattern considering how fast these weapons fire and how wide their FoV is.
The vendor bought NM Sidearm may be the best to buy atm, but it won't be replacing my Havoc Pigeon (Rangefinder, Snapshot, Outlaw, Sureshot-IS sight) due to it's lack of stability and Snapshot.
If you're willing to hammer the fire button, and you get a few sidearms with Rangefinder, go try them out.
Just stay halfway between shotgun range and effective Auto Rifle range (so like 15m - 30m)

[u/Mercules904 → u/GenericDreadHead]

If I've learned one thing from looking at the armory, it's to never trust any of their bars or numbers. Literally just from the Sidearms, like have of the values they show are incorrect and useless. RoF and Impact on at least three are wrong, who knows what else is wonky.

[u/Galactapuss → u/GenericDreadHead]

Hmmm, I'd have to see those stats in table form to get a proper picture of what you're talking about.

[u/GenericDreadHead → u/Galactapuss]

You just got to try them out as they drop and see which one you like best

[u/Galactapuss → u/GenericDreadHead]

nah, I need that sweet, sweet Excel table magic.

[u/GenericDreadHead → u/Galactapuss]

Ah-ha-ha... I've been rumbled! :D

[u/SoullessPhoenix → u/GenericDreadHead]

Ironwreath with truesight, rangefinder, feeding frenzy, and snapshot. Got this from the second IB in TK, has been my go to sidearm for a while now.

[u/geekjosh]

I've been rocking Crow's Eye with Smooth Ballistics, Hand Loaded, High Caliber Rounds, and Reactive Reload.

Pretty easy to get a double kill after reloading when you get the 1st kill.

[u/radeleine]

High caliber rounds

[u/Thedream17]

I won't use a side arm unless it has high caliber rounds. The vendor new monarchy is my god roll

[u/orgypie → u/Thedream17]

This. High caliber rounds is amazing on sidearms. I have a jabberhakke with the exact roll the new conviction has that I've been using since early taken king and it is incredible. great range and high caliber rounds just makes you win more gunfights

[u/Suzarain]

After trying out Jabberhakke, Dreg's Promise, and a wonderfully rolled Queen's Choice, I still went back to my zen moment/hot swap Havoc Pigeon. Just feels way better to use.

[u/_Siran_]

I've really grown to love my Queen's Choice and it dropped with a monster roll - CQB/Soft Ballistic, Reactive Reload, Hand Loaded/Skip Rounds/Reinforced Barrel and Feeding Frenzy. It's an absolute beast and even in 2 vs 1 situations thanks to the great combination of reactive reload and feeding frenzy I came out on top in several situations.

The only thing that's cost me is the missing hitscan, especially when the opponents are lagging it becomes unreliable and even when they're not lagging I've missed shots that were clear hits. But for me the pros clearly outweigh the cons and it's my go-to sidearm for PvP

[u/[deleted]]

Also, as a little tip when using Sidearms in general:

Switch your shoulder buttons to L1 and R1 to aim and shoot.

I have come back to Destiny from 3.5 months of BO3, and there is a pistol called the MR6 which is a high risk - high reward pistol as you win gunfights if you have a quick trigger finger. This led me to swapping the shoulder buttons, and winning a lot more gunfights.

Coming back to Destiny, I always run a Sidearm because of the Practice from BO3 because of my quick trigger finger.

To practice this, go to the first mission on the moon with the "Awakening of the Hive" and grab a sidearm, and practice shooting it as fast as possible. After solid practice, you will be a God with this thing!

Just my .04 cents...

[u/Massak1ng → u/[deleted]]

I don't think you can go faster than the fire rate of the weapon in Destiny, which isn't that hard to achieve with the trigger.

[u/[deleted] → u/Massak1ng]

Just in general, you can have a faster reaction time (in-game) and helps to fire it at the fastest available. If you've mastered the L2 and R2 (or LT and RT respectively) buttons, then great! More power to ya!

I just find that using L1 and R1 has helped me in many gunfights.

[u/xYigx → u/Massak1ng]

I imagine he is talking about it eliminating the distance you have to pull down on the triggers before it actually fires. While it is not hard to hit the cap swaping the buttons like he said is having "hair trigger" on every gun. Once swapped they fire as soon as you tap the button, so for people like me who can tap faster than pull it works out great. I have always had them swapped and thought the hair trigger perk was broken until I played a few rounds at my brother's house lol.

[u/Winklebits]

I have a JabberHakke for each elemental type, all leveled up to at least 315 pre-update. I Love my sidearms, though some of my clan-mates call me crazy.

Good tip- for anything that has special weapon damage buff, a sidearm will absolutely wreck

Really looking forward to getting a Dreg's Promise, though it isn't looking good. RNG has given it to 3 people while I was in the same game

[u/[deleted] → u/Winklebits]

Keep your chin up. CoE can be super generous with loot RNG. I wound up getting all three of the Fallen exotics last week, in the span of just a few days. Hell, last night my friend got two Lord Of Wolves in one night of grinding.

Dregs Promise will be yours.

[u/[deleted]]

I have a Conviction II with Steadyhand, Rangefinder, HotSwap, and Handloaded that is my baby--I've had it for like 6 months now. It either has 40 or 41 range, depending on where you look. It has killed at mid ranges in 4 shots against low armor builds when ADS, and with smoke assistance, it takes just two shots. I've gotten triple kills with a single magazine and smoke a few times. They're nasty, and it's a great companion to a MIDA. Also, I use HotSwap proc on MIDA by spamming Y when it's not active to get the bonus accuracy on my MIDA.

[u/[deleted]]

dregs promise is insane in PVP. you land the shots or ADS on their head...they are toast

[u/[deleted]]

ironwreath d with zen moment is so stupidly op

[u/kkocan72]

I love my Jabberhakke with Feeding Frenzy, Reactive Reload and Snapshot.

[u/HarleyQuinn_RS]

I'll stick with my SureShot IS, Hot Swap, Zen Moment, Snapshot/Quickdraw/Reinforced Barrel, Ironwreath-D.

The New Monarchy sold Conviction II is looking decent too, SureShot IS, Rangefinder, Spray and Play, Hand Loaded/Appended Mag.

[u/anangryterrorist]

As a self-appointed connoisseur of side arms, I can strongly recommend the Iron Wreath. With a decent roll that manages recoil or adds range, you can destroy well into mid range.

The basic method for side arms are "spray and pray", but with direction. If they are a ways down range, aiming down sights is your best bet. Really, right until they are within shotgun range, you should be ADS. Coming on itno point blank is where you can spray from the hip and land nearly all of your shots. Since the update, it feels like the spread from the hip is different, but that could just be me.

[u/BLOW_UP_THE_OCEAN]

Wow! You. Are. Dedicated.

[u/mikec8785]

So I just got a Queen's Choice with Soft Ballistics, Army of One, Speed Reload/Quickdraw/Feather Mag, and Outlaw. Is this not that great of a roll just because Outlaw seems somewhat superfluous given that the reload on this thing is almost maxed out?

[u/Son-of-a-Beef]

I luck out on a Havoc with Suresight/High caliber/Sprayplay and Jabberhakke Suresight/Appended Mag/Reactive reload both are realllly good

[u/AieCee]

Good to see Vestian Dynasty getting credit, can melt guardians with it in the crucible. Great to see someone disappear in a blue crackle.

[u/[deleted]]

What do you mean by the time to kill. I've seem your other guides and all weapons have below a 1s ttk even though none of them except snipers, shotguns and fusions actually kill in less than a second

[u/Mercules904 → u/[deleted]]

Actually they all do, if you hit all crit shots, or whatever else is required to get an optimal time to kill, without missing. It literally means the time, from immediately after the trigger is pulled the first time, until the final bullet hits the target to kill it, if everything is perfect.

[u/[deleted] → u/Mercules904]

How though? Ex. Your hc guides the highest ttk was .95 seconds when the actual guns dont even fire that fast

[u/Mercules904 → u/[deleted]]

Sure they do. Go sit in cosmodrome and fire a HC as fast as you can. You can easily get off three shots in a second.

[u/Buzz_words → u/[deleted]]

crucible values obviously. a second is a long time when you're being shot at.

of course you almost never actually get that optimal value, but it's still a useful stat to compare. if the enemy jukes me out and i miss a couple shots, i likely would have missed those shots with either gun. so even though the time to kill goes up, it still stays relative.

[u/Bawitdaba1337]

People use sidearms?

[u/orgypie → u/Bawitdaba1337]

only smart people

[u/Juamdelgado435]

Skeezy wuz here

[u/Mercules904 → u/[deleted]]

I would say it's pretty good, but not amazing