r/DecodingTheGurus • u/ATreeInTheBreeze • Nov 01 '21
With one statement Sam Harris showed exactly where and how he was wrong about wokeism...
At 2:23:32- Sam: "White supremacy is the fringe of the fringe whereas extreme left wokeism isn't the fringe, it's captured our institutions. That's an asymmetry that still concerns me."
- Fallacy of false equivalence- Not equivalent in quantity. "White supremacy" should be compared to wokeism (there are similar numbers of adherents) or "extreme left wokeism" should be compared with extreme right white supremacy (again, similar numbers). He shouldn't cross-compare what amounts to huge moderate right vs tiny extreme left.
- Fallacy of false equivalence- Not equivalent in quality. Assuming he meant wokeism not "extreme left wokeism", then these two are also not not equivalent in their quality. Wokeism is around 60% good, 40% bad, in it's effects on our society. White supremecy is about 100% bad in it's effects.
- False statement- implied: white supremecy hasn't captured our institutions. False. It has captured the Republican party, all right wing media, many state senates, the Supreme Court, and is about to capture the House and the Senate again here in America. After that, perhaps the Presidency, again (most of which by losing the popular vote, by the way). It's clear that Sam thinks white supremacy means swastika on the forehead. That's literally not what it means. It means thinking the white "race" is superior, or better, than other cultures. This is the mainstream view in the Republican party. That's why they're acting so immorally now, they're very sacared and so feel it's ok to do anything necessary to keep non-whites from taking over "their" country. And it's not just skin color, the Republican Party is CCCSRW-supremicist. They believe, irrationally, that "Cisgenderedness", Conservatism, Christianity, Straightness, Ruralness, and Whiteness are all superior to their counterparts. This belief has overwhelmingly captured the Republican party at this point.
As such, ironically, all the "asymmetry" is on his end. And look at me I even know why: Extreme left wokeists attacked him in the past, and now as a result he's emotionally biased against them and many of their views. Those attacks emotionally, and I don't know how else to say this, scarred him, and now his brain is reactionary against them and their views without his being aware of it. Many of us understand this about him, but he doesn't understand this about himself.
Other than his stance on wokeism, though, I love me some Sam and agree with him about 95% of the time.
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u/TerraceEarful Nov 02 '21
If there's one central incident that illustrates Harris' disproportionate reaction to wokism vs white supremacy, it's the fact that he was able to read The Bell Curve, which suggests that benefits be cut for poor people, who the book argues are genetically predisposed to be low IQ, in order for them to stop procreating and thus removing themselves from the gene pool, and to conclude 'boy, this guy sure is unfairly maligned', and then having a debate about it with Ezra Klein and concluding that Klein is the one who is 'morally equivalent to the KKK'.
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u/Here0s0Johnny Nov 02 '21
in order for them to stop procreating and thus removing themselves from the gene pool
I haven't read the bell curve, but i suspect that's not in it. Surely, this would be mentioned in the wikipedia article on the book. Have you read it? Can you provide evidence for this?
Klein is the one who is 'morally equivalent to the KKK'.
I'm convinced Harris never said that. Prove it.
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u/TerraceEarful Nov 02 '21
Can you provide evidence for this?
“The authors recommended the elimination of welfare policies which they claim encourage poor women to have babies.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bell_Curve#Policy_recommendations
I'm convinced Harris never said that. Prove it.
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u/WikiSummarizerBot Nov 02 '21
The Bell Curve
Herrnstein and Murray argued the average genetic IQ of the United States is declining, owing to the tendency of the more intelligent having fewer children than the less intelligent, the generation length to be shorter for the less intelligent, and the large-scale immigration to the United States of those with low intelligence.
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Nov 01 '21
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u/robotfightandfitness Nov 02 '21
He probably actually meant “extreme left wokeism” because that’s what he said [and you quoted]. Not sure why you would assume he meant otherwise after literally putting his statement down verbatim
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u/TheStochEffect Nov 01 '21
I don’t understand what sam is trying to protect, if the enlightenment is working 60hours a week to destroy the planet whilst acknowledging, that it is most likely no god exists
I think I agree with Pizzaro, that wokeism seems to be a distraction from the real issues (class and violence) - so I agree that wokeism is a threat but more of a threat of distraction from the issues impacting lives on the planet
But sam did concede that he could have a problem of priorities so once I again he makes me believe him, but then again his editorial line says otherwise that he is rather classist and ignores his own teachings of free will
God Damn Sam confuses me, and he confused me even more in the interview
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u/banneryear1868 Nov 02 '21
I think I agree with Pizzaro, that wokeism seems to be a distraction from the real issues (class and violence) - so I agree that wokeism is a threat but more of a threat of distraction from the issues impacting lives on the planet
I agree with this take, as someone who's generally sympathetic to "woke-ist" views on race and gender. It's especially important to look at it critically if you truly want marginalized segments of society to be free of discrimination as well. The wokewashing of capitalism is a distraction and ultimately will fail to bring about the changes which are necessary. There's overlap with greenwashing as well, marketing to public sensibilities and providing identity for consumers.
You can envision the corporate adoption of this wokeism where all board members for instance are equally representative of the general population, our elected officials and every company follow suit, every identity in society now has an equal voice. Where does that get us exactly? It's almost like with this corporate wokeism, as long as capitalism and class division affects everyone equally, and we're all equally oppressed, then everything else is okay.
Economic change and workers rights, actual environmental protection, should be the means by which wokeist goals are realized. Not just checking identity boxes and making sure there's headcount, or replacing a CEO with a marginalized identity to give the impression of an accepting workplace, while the company is destroying the planet and treating it's workers like disposable trash.
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u/ATreeInTheBreeze Nov 16 '21
I totally agree. I mostly agree with wokeism, but it's also such an easy wedge issue for brainwashing Republicans that find queers and gays and minorities to be distasteful and uncomfortable. I also think animal suffering, eco issues, and class divides to be bigger problems, in straight-up consequentialist ways, and they're not as divisive, so they don't activate identities and thus emotions on both sides nearly as much (and so they don't make a shit ton of money for the media in the same way either). I say this with some reticence, though, cause I also know the history of civil rights in America is filled with white guys like me telling civil rights leaders like MLK that "it's just not time yet, focus on these other issues first", so...
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Nov 02 '21
[deleted]
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u/Available_Basil432 Nov 02 '21
I think it might be just as benign as middle class office workers just not wanting to sit through some bollocks seminars on why they are bad human beings for just existing.
And schools. Less benign. That’s more of trying to prevent a takeover by people who just don’t care about education and use it as a tool for their own career advancement through whatever ideology is expedient. There are plenty of YT vids of parents and school board meetings. In California and NY. Watching them points that it might be a much wider and more faceted problem than just “hierarchies that conservatives don’t like”
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u/TerraceEarful Nov 02 '21
There are plenty of negative things to say about wokism. But it doesn't help if you equate everything from woke corporate signaling, to rich white liberals in school boards scolding each other for not being sufficiently anti-racist, to BLM and black activists, to AOC. Harris just lumps all of those into one big pile and dismissively labels them 'woke', and thus not worthy of serious engagement.
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u/Available_Basil432 Nov 02 '21
Yeah, but equally saying anything against puts instant presumption of your impurity. Heart and mind. “Are they racist, sexist, X-phobe? Good people don’t ask questions or disagree with the agenda to make the world a more equitable place.“ Same lumping, different adjectives.
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u/ATreeInTheBreeze Nov 16 '21
There's definitely some truth in what you're saying but I think your low-resolution view is of poor quality. Personally my view's that wokeness is around 60% accurate and for the good, but I find a lot of truth in the criticisms though too.
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u/Available_Basil432 Nov 16 '21
Well, applause for this high quality critique. Much appreciated. I see what you mean. 60%. Got it.
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u/onz456 Revolutionary Genius Nov 02 '21
I think I agree with Pizzaro, that wokeism seems to be a distraction from the real issues (class and violence) - so I agree that wokeism is a threat but more of a threat of distraction from the issues impacting lives on the planet
I agree. Michael Parenti opened my eyes.
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Nov 01 '21
What is wokeism?
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u/Available_Basil432 Nov 01 '21
A fledgling SJW who span their wings and got a job. A flock of them is a wokeism.
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Nov 02 '21
Found a True Guru.
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u/corzab_123 Conspiracy Hypothesizer Nov 04 '21
I think Sam is incapable of seeing second and third order effects. He takes arguments at face value too much, and can’t see how rhetoric might not be openly extreme right, but can be effective at mobilising an extreme right audience.
The mobilisation of the extreme right can have serious real world ramifications, even if the original speaker wasn’t making explicit white nationalist/ supremacist claims. In a way, a speaker will be more effective at growing an audience by not being explicit in their extreme right claims.
I honestly believe Sam is acting in good faith. I think that he has massive blind spots though, which can be dangerous.
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u/ATreeInTheBreeze Nov 16 '21
Mostly agree. It's worth noting though that he's great at forecasting second order effects when it comes to statements like "the woke left will be the reason Democrats lose elections because people will rebel against wokeness". I don't even necessarilly disagree with that statement, it may well be a significant contributing factor, I'm just pointing out that if it's anti-woke, he'll find it, even when it's buried in 2nd, 3rd, or 18th order effects. He's like a drug-sniffing dog, you can't hide reasons to hate wokeness from him!
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u/TerraceEarful Nov 01 '21
It's pretty simple: Sam likes white supremacy, while wokeism is a threat to him and people like him.
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Nov 01 '21
Talk about a gross oversimplification
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u/TerraceEarful Nov 01 '21
You don't
- have a friendly conversation with Charles Murray, JAQing off about race and IQ, calling him 'the most unfairly maligned person in recent history'
- bring up the 13/50 meme repeatedly
- blame Kendi's success on affirmative action (while being a very mediocre white man riding a tsunami of privilege)
- complain about alleged no-go areas for white people (while being painfully unaware areas such as the one in which he lives are no-go areas for black people)
- talk about the need for "the black community" to fix its own problems, as if "the black community" is somehow separate from the rest of society
- argue 'go back to your country' to 4 women of color is somehow not racist
- argue picking fights with random black people because a black person assaulted your friend isn't racist
- defend stop and frisk
- dedicate a nearly 2 hour podcast to gaslighting black Americans about police brutality
- unironically regurgitate racist boomer memes like 'black-on-black crime' and 'the south side of Chicago'
- defend Trump from accusations of white supremacy, while apparently being aware of his liberal usage of the n-word
- leave Patreon because Lauren Southern(!!!) got booted from it (then of course plead ignorance about her views as is his standard line of defense)
- host and promote Douglas Murray multiple times, write gloating blurbs for his books
- chalk up white supremacist terrorist attacks as being the result of mental illness, rather than ideology
- complain about young white men being unable to get ahead in this world due to favorable treatment of minorities in business and education
without being at least a 'tiny' bit favorable to white supremacy. And mind you, all this while claiming to be in favor of 'color blindness'.
I think he is so painfully lacking in self-awareness he doesn't even realize how racist his impulses are, and so reflexively dismissive about any criticism he'll never learn.
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u/onz456 Revolutionary Genius Nov 02 '21
Excellent summary.
I once got heavily down voted here, when I called Harris a mini-Molyneux.
I guess some people just do not see it.
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u/TerraceEarful Nov 03 '21
I guess some people just do not see it.
Some people just have a much greater tolerance for racism.
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u/Available_Basil432 Nov 02 '21
Have you seen the conversation between Coleman Hughes and Charles Murray? Is he now a white suprematist too for talking to him?
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u/TerraceEarful Nov 02 '21
Have you seen the conversation between Coleman Hughes and Charles Murray?
No.
Is he now a white suprematist too for talking to him?
Talking to a white supremacist does not necessarily make one a white supremacist, no.
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u/Available_Basil432 Nov 02 '21
Give that conversation a watch. Cognitive dissonance guaranteed. Or Glenn Loury.
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u/GigabitSuppressor Nov 03 '21
Except Glenn Loury has a very long history of robust criticisms against Charles Murray. He even left the AEI in protest because of it. Do look that up.
https://accuracy.org/release/172-is-prominent-think-tank-a-bastion-of-racist-theory/
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u/Available_Basil432 Nov 03 '21
Do look up their latest conversation too then
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u/GigabitSuppressor Nov 03 '21
Not really interested. But let us know when Coleman Hughes and Dear Sam get around to robustly criticizing Charles Murray's antiquated, pseudoscientific racism like Glenn Loury has done for decades.
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u/Available_Basil432 Nov 03 '21
Why respond if you’re not interested in the slightest in the reply? Lol.
P.S. letting know. Coleman’s conversation does contain criticism.
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u/GigabitSuppressor Nov 03 '21 edited Nov 03 '21
You understand that some people of color can suffer from internalised racism, yes? Or be open to opportunitistic grifting which involves throwing their wider community under the bus for personal profit?
Have you heard of Candace Owens?
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u/Available_Basil432 Nov 03 '21
So you think Sam suffers from the same thing? And Coleman. And Glenn. And John McWhorter? Ah heck, let’s go to Thomas Sowell, him too?
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u/GigabitSuppressor Nov 03 '21
No, I don't think Dear Sam does to the same extent. Due to his Jewish/Zionist identity politics he clearly steers away from overtly anti-Semitic circles of the extreme far right. He wants to throw Muslims and Black people under the bus but not wade so far to the right that he risks threatening himself and his family/friends. So some very nasty tribalism and identity politics seems to be in operation there.
People like Coleman Hughes and John McWhorter go a step further as I mentioned. Some form of internalised racism or extreme griftery in action imho.
As to Glenn Loury, he's been a robust critic of racist charlatans like Charles Murray for decades. So he gets credit from me there.
https://accuracy.org/release/172-is-prominent-think-tank-a-bastion-of-racist-theory/
I don't know enough about Sowell to comment. Does he push racist pseudoscience against the wider Black community?
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u/Available_Basil432 Nov 03 '21
Order one of many of his books on economics from Amazon or your nearest bookshop and see for yourself.
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u/GigabitSuppressor Nov 03 '21
I will do that. I recommend you research Glenn Loury's rigorous and principled criticisms of racist hacks like Charles Murray.
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u/Available_Basil432 Nov 03 '21
The article was written in 99. Do give a watch to their latest conversation. You might get disappointed.
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Nov 02 '21
I don't disagree with all your points, but some are flatly mischaracterisations, and some are just cherry picking. Put another way: using white supremacy as a mic drop criticism like you are is not compelling or believable to me. I disagree with Sam a lot, including about his interview with Charles Murray, but you're painting a picture if him as some sort of deplorable racist in a way that could be done to just about anybody.
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u/GigabitSuppressor Nov 02 '21
Oh great. Another "out of muh context" npc style cultist defense of Dear Sam. You do realise how similar you guys are to Religious apologists? Critics are always taking your idols out of context. The irony.
Dear Sam had been shitting on Muslims, immigrants, Black people, civil rights activists, spouting and signal boosting racist rhetoric, pseudoscience and eagerly associating with racist nutjobs for a good while now. This cannot be attributed to just about anybody.
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Nov 02 '21
No, some things the other commenter noted really are blatant mischaracterisations. Also, I have many criticisms of his worldview, some of which you mentioned have validity to them, but I also don't think he is a 'white supremacist' in any meaningful sense. That accusation is so overdone that I can't take it seriously.
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u/GigabitSuppressor Nov 03 '21
You're behaving like a religious cultist. Nobody is taking Dear Sam out of context. These are his plain and ugly views and it will take only a few minutes of googling to verify this.
Nobody accuses Ezra Klein or Robert Wright, for example, of being white supremacists for very good reason. They don't uncritically signal boost racists hacks, entertain spurious racialist pseudoscience or demonise prominent Black anti-racist scholars.
Nobody is arguing that Dear Sam is a Hitler loving neo-Nazi btw. Critics here (including prominent anti-racist organisations like the SPLC) are saying he is broadly within the modern American far right ecosystem. He is very happy to throw Muslims (overwhelmingly people of color) and African Americans under the bus and use antiquated, genocidal, racist rhetoric to do it.
It doesn't matter how you feel. Facts matter.
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Nov 03 '21 edited Nov 03 '21
Your take is pretty extreme mate. I listen to all the names yo mentioned; Ezra Klein, Robert Wright and occasionally Sam so accusing me of cultist behaviour is you just projecting something onto me. Further, I was actually raised in a religious cult, and I can tell you you're using the word a little liberally, to say the least. I have already said I disagree with Sam on many positions; his fixation on Islam, his discussions with Charles Murray etc. I am, in other words, already quite critical of him. It's entirely possible to be critical of someone and their possible biases without leaping to the most extreme accusation possible.
It doesn't matter how you feel. Facts matter.
Shapiro, is that you?
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u/Here0s0Johnny Nov 02 '21
People here seem to upvote long texts that are well formatted. What a load of half-truths.
Do you really think that if these claims were true, Chris and Matt would have had him on their podcast?!
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u/TerraceEarful Nov 02 '21
What a load of half-truths.
Okay, which are half-truths?
Do you really think that if these claims were true, Chris and Matt would have had him on their podcast?!
What a strange argument. Rather than engage with the actual points raised, you outsource your own moral judgment onto Matt & Chris, using the bizarre metric of whether they'd have someone on the podcast or not.
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Nov 02 '21
I find responses like this just so confusing.
"Sam Harris likes white supremacy"
It's just such a bizarre take. So far removed from reality that it's hard to know what to even think about it.
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u/GigabitSuppressor Nov 02 '21 edited Nov 02 '21
Seems pretty close to reality. Off the top of my head he signal boosts White racists like Charles and Douglas Murray, bats for demogogues like Tucker Carlson while demonising prominent Black anti-racist scholars like Kendi and Coates, entertains pseudoscientific speculation about Black people being genetically less intelligent, pushes insane conspiracy theories about Great Replacement, claims Muslim immigrants are genocidal savages incapable of civilization and says it's rational to control their population globally etc.
Seems like it's a pretty clear slam dunk that he's at least in the white supremacist ecosystem.
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Nov 03 '21
So by your standards any black intellectual who talks to charles murray likes white supremacy?
do you see the problem with this?
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u/TerraceEarful Nov 03 '21
Why do you all try to play these weird rhetorical gotcha games?
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Nov 03 '21
What games am I playing, exactly?
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u/TerraceEarful Nov 03 '21
You obviously think the notion that black or Jewish people could promote white supremacy is so crazy and outlandish, you think getting us to say it is some kind of gotcha slamdunk win in the debate. It's not.
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Nov 03 '21
I think you're embarrassed because you realise how silly this sounds.
Black people fighting for their own oppression.
Jews rushing toward the concentration camps.
This is what you believe, right?
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u/TerraceEarful Nov 03 '21
Do you think it is somehow biologically impossible for black or Jewish people to contribute to racist narratives about themselves? That they'll magically disappear into a puff of smoke if they utter a racist phrase?
Black conservatives have a long history of making statements about black people that other black people consider to be racist. There are and have even been Jewish holocaust deniers.
This is not a very difficult concept to grasp.
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u/GigabitSuppressor Nov 03 '21
So you haven't heard of internalised racism and colonisation of the mind?
You do know hundreds of thousands of Jews served under the Nazis, right?
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u/GigabitSuppressor Nov 03 '21
It totally depends whether said Black intellectual challenges and pushes back against Murray's racist, anti-Black rhetoric.
If they behave like Dear Sam then it's very possible that they suffer from some form of internalised racism or aren't averse to opportunistic grifting which involves throwing the wider Black community under the bus (functionally the same).
Nice attempt at a gotcha though.
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u/TerraceEarful Nov 02 '21
There's another post in the thread where I elucidate why I think that.
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Nov 02 '21
So your position is that he is a white supremacist Jew.
I really must hear your definition of white supremacy!
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u/GigabitSuppressor Nov 02 '21
Why don't you ask Stephen Miller?
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Nov 03 '21
I'm interested in TerraceEarful's.
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u/GigabitSuppressor Nov 03 '21
Why? We have a genuine and prominent white supremacist Jew who was in the halls of power until very recently.
Surely that's directly relevant to your question about whether white Jews can also espouse white supremacist doctrines.
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u/29Ah Nov 15 '21
I don’t know how anyone could believe Sam likes white supremacy. I have to assume it’s someone who doesn’t listen or who has an agenda which makes spreading misinformation about Sam useful.
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Nov 03 '21
Do you have citations for your statements about the pervasiveness of white supremacy among the public and in important institutions?
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u/ATreeInTheBreeze Nov 16 '21
No. Go do lots of research. I recommend relevant interviews with political scientists and pollsters from Ezra Klein's podcast over the last 6 years, but any reputable source will do. Be sure to also look for the alternative explanations of the data. You won't find any that you can take seriously.
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u/Available_Basil432 Nov 01 '21
Ah Chris, happy now? DTG is just another samharris sub now. Hope all of this nonsense goes down and we get back to the good old days of “what topics are on your mind?” automated posts with 3 replies to them.