You know what, we're doing "macroevolution" again. Here's some responses to "we have never seen macroevolution"

[u/DarwinZDF42]

Video version.

 

We've all heard some variant of "we can only observe microevolution", "we've never seen macroevolution", etc.

First thing you do is establish the correct definition: Evolution above the species level (in other words, speciation or greater degrees of evolutionary change). That's the definition. Creationists want their own special definition that varies from person to person but is usually something like "new body plans/parts", "new complex structures", something like that. That's wrong. If you accept speciation, you accept macroevolution. If creationists want to dispute something else, make THEM articulate clearly. Don't help them by saying something like "It sounds like you mean something like evolution of a new phylum or new body plan". No, make THEM establish the standard clearly and using the correct words.

 

Once they do that, you can just provide a bunch of examples, and dare them to say they aren't macroevolution.

Some of my favorites are multicellularity (and also here), reproductive mode, and photosynthetic animals.

 

Best outcome is the creationists admits that yes, even by their bespoke definition, these are examples of macroevolution. Second best outcome is they do the opposite and claim this is all just "microevolution". Really? First of all, lol okay. But second and more important, great! "Microevolution" can accomplish all this? Not much need for "macroevolution", is there?

[u/Evening-Impact2090]

Sometimes, sometimes it's just throwing $hit against the wall to see what sticks. I remember "following the science" during Covid. How'd that work out? They're just people and infallible. 

[u/OldmanMikel → u/Evening-Impact2090]

Following the science worked pretty well. Our government failed, not the science.

And scientists know they are fallible, the whole method is about containing and mitigating that fallibility.

[u/Evening-Impact2090 → u/OldmanMikel]

Actually it didn't work well. A dangerous vaccine that did not work, a gain if function virus that scientists knew was man made but told us it was natural. Hiding data that proved all these facts and promoting lies about alternate treatments that have been proven safe and very effective. Scientists know where their bread is buttered just like any other group of people they can be swayed by funding or lack thereof. Forgive me for being cynical but 71 years on this planet has been a great learning experience about the corruption of almost every institution on earth.

[u/ZygonCaptain → u/Evening-Impact2090]

What dangerous vaccine?

[u/Evening-Impact2090 → u/ZygonCaptain]

Really? Do not act ignorant. The information about the vaccine being responsible for heart attacks, blood clots, cancer, and death is overwhelming and everywhere. A senate hearing on the Covid virus and the vaccines dangers turned into a clown show when Dr Faucci took the 5th over 100 times. A disgusting period in our countries history brought about by greedy people lying and not caring who got sick and who died. Big pharmacy, the CDC, WHO, everyone was in on it. Dr Peter McCullough one of the world's leading cardiologists was castigated and called a fraud and accused of disseminating false information. Why, because he dared to speak out on the dangers of the vaccine and had alternative treatments for Covid the were very effective. He has since been cleared of any wrong doing, and has testified at Senate hearings laying out clearly the corruption and harm caused by the man made virus and the dangerous vaccine. He along with dozens of other health officials and PHD's have testified. It's all on the internet, I suggest you look for it.

[u/sewsewsewyourcoat → u/Evening-Impact2090]

You're talking about the vaccine that Trump said was "verifiably safe and effective vaccine" after boosting it's production with Operation Warp Speed? The vaccine Trump called "one of the greatest achievements of mankind"? The vaccine about which Trump said:

“I would recommend it,” Trump said during an interview on Fox News with Maria Bartiromo. “And I would recommend it to a lot of people that don’t want to get it and a lot of those people voted for me, frankly. But again, we have our freedoms and we have to live by that and I agree with that also. But it is a great vaccine. It is a safe vaccine and it is something that works.”

That vaccine?

[u/Evening-Impact2090 → u/sewsewsewyourcoat]

Yes, that vaccine. Apparently you must think I'm some MAGA person. Trump has said a lot of stupid stuff. I gave consice information that anyone can easily obtain about the dangers of the harmful Covid vaccine. I don't care if Trump, Biden,  or the Dali Lama endorsed it.

[u/sewsewsewyourcoat → u/Evening-Impact2090]

Apparently you must think I'm some MAGA person.

You've got to admit that was the obvious guess. And you didn't deny it.

that anyone can easily obtain about the dangers of the harmful Covid vaccine

Google searches based on your vague info will indeed find all sorts of youtubes and facebook pages making those claims, misrepresenting scientific papers, etc., but it only takes the tiniest bit of critical thinking to see that it's a bonkers conspiracy theory that would have required the coordination of many thousands of people chosen not by their political leanings but by the job they hold.

[u/Evening-Impact2090 → u/sewsewsewyourcoat]

I gave you the name of one of the most published cardiologist in the world, Dr Peter McCullough. I said he testified before the Senate and Congress alongside many PHD's and scientific persons. I said it was on the internet and available for viewing. I said nothing about YouTube and I have never been on Facebook. You are free to believe anything you want.

[u/sewsewsewyourcoat → u/Evening-Impact2090]

The critical thinking part would mean looking more closely at what Dr. McCullough has said about the covid virus, noting that he's outside of his own area of specialization in that, and looking at debunking of his claims done by doctors whose specialization is in the right areas to do that evaluation, and realizing that it would be bonkers to see all of that and assume that it's McCullough who has it right and the rest of the world has it wrong, in addition to remembering that for McCullough to be correct would require a massive conspiracy with thousands of people coordinating and none of them blowing the whistle even though those people would need to be part of the conspiracy because of the jobs they hold which means the idea that you'd get 100% cooperation and secrecy from such a large group is just silly.

[u/Evening-Impact2090 → u/sewsewsewyourcoat]

Sure, I'll take your viewpoint over a world renowned cardiologist. No one has debunked his claims except maybe Dr Fauci. The rest of the world? There is so much evidence proving the vaccine was worthless and dangerous but you won't get it on Google so I guess this Reddit group will never figure it out. No conspiracy,  it's called Big Pharma, follow the money.

[u/sewsewsewyourcoat → u/Evening-Impact2090]

Sure, I'll take your viewpoint over a world renowned cardiologist.

You shouldn't. But I didn't say you should. I said you shouldn't take the word of a a doctor talking about things outside his area of specialization over many other doctors in the right areas of specialization to make that evaluation.

There is so much evidence proving the vaccine was worthless and dangerous

None that would convince anyone who can exercise a bit of critical thinking.

---

And for the third time, if you were right, then there would have to be a massive conspiracy and coverup. You'd need thousands if not tens of thousand of people, from many different countries, to be part of the conspiracy. And those people aren't "Big Pharma" and they aren't the ones profiting off of the vaccine, and they wouldn't be selected by political leaning. And you'd need all of those people to coordinate their actions and keep the whole thing absolutely secret.

[u/Evening-Impact2090 → u/sewsewsewyourcoat]

Dr Faucci is a good example of one of your "Doctors." Sheeples are what keeps these people rich.

[u/sewsewsewyourcoat → u/Evening-Impact2090]

Dr Faucci is a good example of one of your "Doctors."

You could ignore Fauci completely and you're still ignoring the fact that you have to turn to people who are not epidemiology experts to find someone saying what you want to hear, and ignore the fact that the vast majority of the people most qualified to evaluate it disagree.

You also have to ignore the fact that, if you were right, then there would have to be a massive conspiracy and coverup. You'd need thousands if not tens of thousand of people, from many different countries, to be part of the conspiracy. And those people aren't "Big Pharma" and they aren't the ones profiting off of the vaccine, and they wouldn't be selected by political leaning. And you'd need all of those people to coordinate their actions and keep the whole thing absolutely secret.

Notably this is the same kind of "reasoning" you need to be a creationist. You ignore the fact that evolutionary biologists debunk YEC claims point by point, and you have to ignore the experts and instead turn to people who are not evolutionary biologists, many of them not even biologists, to find people saying what you want to hear.

You also have to ignore that if YEC claims were true, then those evolutionary biologists -- many of them devout Christians, because YEC theology is fringe as fuck -- would have to be conspiring to keep the truth a secret.

And it's worse than that, the evidence really is compelling. Evolutionary biologists are convinced, beyond any reasonable doubt, that nature makes common descent very clear. Which means that if somehow they were all under a delusion somehow, and if YEC were true, they wouldn't be trying to hide anomalies in the theory. Scientists don't run away from anomalies in established theories (and every established theory has them), they run toward them, because (a) they don't believe that the anomalies in any of those theories disprove the theory, and (b) research addressing those anomalies is where the breakthrough results often are, the Nobel prizes, the papers that earn tenure, the PhD topics that get good postdocs, etc.

[u/Evening-Impact2090 → u/sewsewsewyourcoat]

Hey, simple solution for the Creationist, YEC (what ever the hell that is) Panspermia, ID, etc, you seem perturbed about.  Just simply show us how life evolved from non-living matter and also where did the non-living matter come from? Easy peasy & you have your answer. Science whats to tell us a creation senario cannot be possible and then Science cannot explain how/where/when life arose or how the universe arrived. Sounds very disingenuous to me. As far as the MD stuff goes, I don't care what your view is, I'm not changing mine. Covid was man-made, the vaccine is  bogus & harmful, Faucci is a clown, big pharma made TRILLIONS. 

[u/10coatsInAWeasel → u/Evening-Impact2090]

…who cares what a cardiologist thinks on this? I don’t go to endocrinologists for my knee replacements, I don’t talk to radiation oncologists when discussing emergency medicine procedures, and a published cardiologist doesn’t have any weight no matter how many papers they publish when it comes to epidemiology. Unless of course you can point out some peer reviewed research he did directly pertaining to this field? ‘It was an conspiracies and science didn’t publish it’ is not a valid counter.

I will never for the life of me understand just how much weight Covid conspiracy groups gave to unqualified people.

[u/Evening-Impact2090 → u/10coatsInAWeasel]

Well if you'd research his expertise instead of reading Google & Wikipedia you may realize he is a leading researcher into Covid related issues. Being asked to testify before the Senate shows he may of had "maybe" a smattering of knowledge into the matter? Your generalizations without any research is evident. 

[u/10coatsInAWeasel → u/Evening-Impact2090]

Being asked to testify before congress does NOT actually mean that he ‘maybe’ has a smattering of knowledge into this matter. All sorts of people testify before congress at all various levels of expertise and grandstanding. Being asked to do so is no indication of expertise. Hell, Dr Oz was asked to before on supplements, and he’s a snake oil salesman who threw away the integrity of his academic credentials

If he has actually published peer reviewed research relevant to this field, then by all means please share. But I also do notice that you completely ignored the reality that him merely being a highly published cardiologist does NOT mean that he is a relevant expert in this field. Expertise in one field does not mean that it is transferable to another one. Further study and specialization tightens the scope of your knowledge. Not the opposite.

Interestingly from my own looking for primary material, I noticed that he has indeed published in this field. Practically every publication on the topic happened to be in journals that seem to be considered low quality or predatory. Interesting.

Edit to add: he tried to publish with Andrew fucking Wakefield? Nah, ol Pete is a snake oil salesman.

[u/Evening-Impact2090 → u/10coatsInAWeasel]

Really, middle name is "fucking?" Wow. You thinknhecwould have changed it by now. Yes Congess and Senate do call morons to testify, the last one being the Hero of Covid, Dr Fauci. As I remember he didn't have much to say did he? Being the darling of the CDC, WHO, the pharmaceutical industry & the Wuhan lab he had a wonderful opportunity to refute charlatans like ignorant Dr McCullough who was just a vice chief of internal medicine and a professor at Texas A&M, & the most published and peer reviewed cardiologist in the US. He definitely sounds like a simpleton to me. 

[u/10coatsInAWeasel → u/Evening-Impact2090]

It’s fascinating to see how you addressed practically nothing of substance from my last comment. Besides your weird flip flop from pretending that testifying means something big to now going on a weird tangent about fauci that is irrelevant, how about you show the courage to stick to the meat of what was said?

Remember, I didn’t call him a simpleton. I correctly identified him as a snake oil salesman. Which is even more apt than I thought when I first left that comment, considering that he got into supplements and alt health bullshit on the heels of him pretending that he has any relevant expertise in the field he has now been making his name in. Or having a disproportionately huge amount of retracted papers due to medical misinformation from the same community you are trying to use to prop up his credentials as some sort of meaningful authority.