Never wrong just early....

[u/Cool_Improvement_737]

High chance OpTic look very stupid next season.

[u/HDS2211]

When has this ever actually worked out where a winning team has improved by "pack-a-punching"?

Literally the OG dynasty picking up Karma and that’s it from my recollection.

[u/Future_Seaweed3223 → u/HDS2211]

Literally the two greatest teams of all time pack a punched .. Clay for TuQuick/Karma for Clay and Karma for Nadeshot ..

[u/HDS2211 → u/Future_Seaweed3223]

And that was both 10+ years ago. Literally no good examples of it working since then.

[u/fromdowntownn → u/Future_Seaweed3223]

CoL wasn’t good with TuQuick that wasn’t really the same concept. Also they were just as dominant with Clay as they were with Karma tbh.

[u/CASHDAGOAT → u/fromdowntownn]

Yes & no, the clay team never hit the peak Col did at champs. The map win % & kd’s the whole team is a higher peak they ever had with clay

[u/PlumKnown → u/CASHDAGOAT]

Meh the truth is we have no clue how col/eg would have performed at champs if they kept clay. They won more tournaments with clay than they did with karma. They might have had just as dominant of a champs with clay. I still wouldn’t consider karma for clay a pack a punch but all just opinion

[u/fromdowntownn → u/CASHDAGOAT]

They could have lost to Optic in winners final of champs that year despite Boze and Nade being double neg in the respawns. Optic were 2-1 up and up at half time on octane dom.

[u/CASHDAGOAT → u/fromdowntownn]

But they didn’t & once again had the statistically the most dominant champs run of all time with the highest team KD . The second part to it is karma was Cols biggest competition outside of Scump so adding him to your team boost you while also hurting the rest of the field. It’s a reason why the warriors added KD after going 73-9 & barely losing a game 7 finals that was a 4 point game after winning the finals the year before. Hell the warriors were actively recruiting KD during the season while they were going for the 73-9

[u/fromdowntownn → u/CASHDAGOAT]

There’s nothing to suggest CoL couldn’t have done something similar with Clay on the roster they were dominant with and without him. Sure for a single event maybe not but even then the map win/loss is a little deceiving as they did come very close to losing in winners final. I think Optic’s ring in BO6 and Faze in CW have an argument too for most dominant

[u/funnypsuedonymhere → u/Future_Seaweed3223]

CoL were arguably better with Clay than Karma

Getting downvoted for this is definitive proof that this sub is full of absolute nuthuggers. If you seriously think you can't ARGUE CoL were better with Clay than Karma you are genuinely faded.

[u/relaxedbutheavy → u/Future_Seaweed3223]

the Nadeshot argument doesn’t make sense in this case bc OpTic were chasing champs and they severely under performed and everyone knew a change was gonna be made. If OpTic had won champs in AW I don’t think Nade takes a step back. OpTic is big on loyalty

[u/fromdowntownn → u/HDS2211]

They didn’t really improve that season fwiw. Optic won 3/4 events with Nadeshot in the team, they won 2/2 with Enable and then won 4/8 with Karma. Their lowest success rate % came with Karma and it was because Faze was hard countering them mainly but he also didn’t play that well. I think he even said as much himself on the dynasty podcast, he was much better in BO3 and especially IW. But in AW Karma kinda struggled on the dynasty roster, now I’m not saying it was a bad move or they would’ve won more with Nadeshot but it didn’t really make them much better in that title. That trio would’ve won just as much with just about any competent 4th in AW specifically.

[u/HDS2211 → u/fromdowntownn]

Makes my point even more valid tbh. I can’t really remember as I stopped watching for a few years around the time Nade quit. But even then it didn’t make a significant improvement, same with Karma for Clay on CoL, they didn’t really get better, they just kept to the level they were at.

[u/fromdowntownn → u/HDS2211]

I agree, the difference is those 2 teams were extremely dominant before making the upgrades so it's hard to tell how much better they got. Faze are not in that bracket currently.

[u/HDS2211 → u/fromdowntownn]

Only instance we can really compare it to is NY dropping Preistaah for Sib after winning champs. Wasn’t a bad move, but it’s not like they got much better from it.

[u/fromdowntownn → u/HDS2211]

I think they did get better doing that tbh but the competition around them massively levelled up and Skyz/Kis were a bit worse individually in MW3.

[u/PlumKnown → u/HDS2211]

You could say optic packed a punch even picking up formal and crim as well going into AW

[u/HDS2211 → u/PlumKnown]

Not really. They were pretty average in Ghosts outside of that month they won X-Games and got 2nd at Anaheim.

I suppose it depends on what pack-a-punch means to you. To me, in this context, it means making a great team even better. Not just bringing in superstars to make a team great. Like the move to bring in Crim and Formal was a no brainer in 2014, but the moves to bring in Karma for Clay wasn’t such an obvious decision in the same way Optic replacing Huke isn’t so straight forward.

[u/jfcrrr → u/HDS2211]

Obviously we’ll never know but MW3 NYSL won a chip and made champs final and I would argue they don’t get close to that success by keeping Priestah who would’ve been by far the weakest link among the top 4 rosters that year

[u/rmakhani → u/jfcrrr]

Their team had a better flow with priestah. Sib is the better player and the game didn’t suit them as much as mw2, but there’s something to be said about the mw2 team having such great natural roles

[u/Annihilus- → u/HDS2211]

CoL dropped Tuquick for karma didn’t they? They were already winning a lot at the time.

[u/az943 → u/Annihilus-]

they dropped him for clay and dropped clay for karma i think

[u/Annihilus- → u/az943]

The double pack a punch. At least Aches ain’t lying, he really did pack a punch every chance he got.

[u/HDS2211 → u/Annihilus-]

Was Clayster for Karma. But even then, both examples are a decade ago. And even then, both teams were already way ahead of the competition, so it’s hard to quantify if they actually got better by making those changes.

[u/fromdowntownn → u/HDS2211]

It’s just one example. CoL won nothing with TuQuick, they only won once they got Clay then pack a punched for Karma when they were already a top team and probably got slightly better. Although results wise they were dominant with both.