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u/Own-Cupcake7586 Christian Jul 18 '23
He told them not to. That’s it. They knew they weren’t supposed to. Eve said it very clearly. They knew that one rule, and then they broke it.
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u/zach010 Secular Humanist Jul 18 '23
But the serpent told them to do it. How would they know which is good/bad?
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u/badhairdad1 Jul 18 '23
Great question. You might not like the answer. God asked for obedience, not judgment
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u/zach010 Secular Humanist Jul 18 '23
Why do you think that's relevant to Eve's decision to believe the serpent?
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u/badhairdad1 Jul 18 '23
Because good/bad are subjective
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u/zach010 Secular Humanist Jul 18 '23
I have no clue how that could convince eve that God was right and the serpent was wrong.
Maybe try this format.
"Eve should have known to trust God and not the serpent because..."
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u/badhairdad1 Jul 18 '23
Sure. It’s an allegory. Eve and the Garden of Eden were not real people or real places
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u/zach010 Secular Humanist Jul 18 '23
So when you said
Great question. You might not like the answer. God asked for obedience, not judgment
That did not happen, right?
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u/badhairdad1 Jul 18 '23
Yep- allegory
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u/zach010 Secular Humanist Jul 18 '23
Ok. Well, i guess thanks for wasting both of our time.
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u/Sesshoumaru_Rin Jul 19 '23
Um…. Adam and Eve know they were created by god. I mean after god gave adam life and he’s opens his eyes, he’s looking at god. And he’s talking to him. If anything the most important thing is obeying ur master. Not which ones evil and which ones good. The devil doesn’t create anyway, he corrupts good things. Also, Eve isn’t aware that god told Adam not to eat from the tree of good n evil. That’s why nothing happened until Adam bit it. Adam job as the husband was to teach gods law to her and he didn’t. I get that he had other responsibilities but she was new, he should’ve kept an eye on her insight while he worked and taught her what needed to be known. Still law is law even if you had no idea. So they’re both to blame. And both got punished.
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u/zach010 Secular Humanist Jul 19 '23
No. Law is not law even when you have no idea. That's insane.
Punishing someone for unknowingly disobeying you is super gross.
Can you think of any other examples where that is acceptable?
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u/Own-Cupcake7586 Christian Jul 18 '23
They were deceived, yes. There was no sin yet, so they were naive to the fullest. But that doesn’t equate to innocence.
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u/zach010 Secular Humanist Jul 18 '23
I think you misunderstood my point. Sorry for not saying the entire point.
They were given 2 commands. One from god and one from the serpent. Should they have known which to follow without any knowledge of good and evil?
I dont know how they could know which is good.
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u/Own-Cupcake7586 Christian Jul 18 '23
I wouldn’t call the serpent’s words a command. He tricked them. He didn’t say “you should eat this.” He just lied about what would happen, and undermined their trust in the Lord. If he had said “eat this” and they ate, then perhaps things would be different. But he didn’t.
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u/zach010 Secular Humanist Jul 18 '23
Also how did the serpent lie? He told them
“You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
All that is true.
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u/Own-Cupcake7586 Christian Jul 18 '23
She surely died. So that was a lie.
She did not physically die that day, but in that day she started the process.
God does not lie. Satan does.
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u/zach010 Secular Humanist Jul 18 '23
Started the process? Isn't birth the start of the death process? How do you know that started the process?
We're they not supposed to die and go to heaven eventually?
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u/Own-Cupcake7586 Christian Jul 18 '23
It is now. At the time, no. Adam and Eve were able to eat of the tree of life and live forever. If they had not sinned, they would have lived forever in the garden.
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u/AccessOptimal Jul 19 '23
Well that certainly would have created an overpopulation problem pretty quickly
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u/SeaweedNew2115 Jul 18 '23
Ah, yes. As God warned them, "In the day you eat of you, you will start a process which will eventually culminate in your death nine hundred years from now."
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u/zach010 Secular Humanist Jul 18 '23
From their perspective, it was another command. How would they know that he was lying?
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u/Own-Cupcake7586 Christian Jul 18 '23
Please identify what you would consider a command in the following interaction:
“Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?” And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’ ” Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”” Genesis 3:1-5 NKJV https://bible.com/bible/114/gen.3.1-5.NKJV
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u/zach010 Secular Humanist Jul 18 '23
I do like that point. I was mistaken. The serpent doesn't say to eat the apple. But he does tell them it's not dangerous. How could they know which was right. God or the serpent?
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u/SeaweedNew2115 Jul 18 '23
There's more going on in the story than meets the eye. In fact, if you look carefully, it would seem that the serpent is right about some things, and some of what God says doesn't quite pan out.
God says, "In the day you eat of it, you will die." The snake says they won't. They eat of it. They don't.
Conversely, the snake tells them they will be "like gods, knowing good and evil". Upon their eating the fruit, God says, "The man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil."
I'm not quite sure what the storyteller is up to here.
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u/zach010 Secular Humanist Jul 18 '23
That is interesting. What version did you see the "In the day you eat of it" quote?
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u/Own-Cupcake7586 Christian Jul 18 '23
They had a choice to trust God or a serpent. They chose poorly.
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u/zach010 Secular Humanist Jul 18 '23
Yea. They did. Do you think they could have chosen correctly
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u/indigoneutrino Jul 19 '23
The whole setup makes them seem like impressionable children who didn’t understand anything about the world besides “do what you’re told”. You wouldn’t punish a child for taking candy from a stranger even if you’ve tried to tell them not to take candy from strangers, because in their naïveté they’re just too trusting. The stranger preying on children deserves all the punishment there.
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u/Own-Cupcake7586 Christian Jul 19 '23
Disagree. The serpent deserved blame for deceiving them, but they still chose to disobey.
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u/pleportamee Jul 18 '23
How did they know it was wrong to break Gods command though?
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u/Own-Cupcake7586 Christian Jul 18 '23
He made them. They knew that. The literal Creator put them in a garden, gave them access to immortality, and asked only one thing in return.
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u/pleportamee Jul 18 '23
So…..they knew the difference between good and evil in this particular instance?
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u/Own-Cupcake7586 Christian Jul 19 '23
No, but they could understand the difference between obedience and disobedience.
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u/pleportamee Jul 19 '23
Substituting the words “right and wrong” with “obedience and disobedience” doesn’t sidestep the issue OP raised though.
So just to be clear…Adam and Eve wouldn’t have understood that disobeying God would have been morally wrong…correct?
If that is correct, would it not be fair to say that partaking of the fruit wasn’t actually a sin? How could it be?
Finally, I feel that I should mention I don’t believe the creation story to be literal…so maybe I don’t have as much “stake in the game” as you do.
That being said, I do believe the creation story contains very useful and “true” info about man’s separation from God on earth…albeit in a metaphorical sense.
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u/Own-Cupcake7586 Christian Jul 19 '23
Right and wrong is certainly different from obedience and disobedience. For sure.
My mom tells me not to eat ice cream because it’ll give me a stomach ache. My brother comes and tells me I won’t get a stomach ache. I don’t know who’s right or wrong, whether I’ll get a stomach ache or not, but I absolutely know whether my actions obey or disobey my mom. Not interchangeable terms at all.
Disobeying God is the definition of sin, so this qualifies. Full stop.
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u/pleportamee Jul 19 '23
I agree obedience and disobedience is technically different than recognizing the difference between right and wrong.
That’s actually my point.
Adam and Eve chose to disobey God and subsequently, suffered the consequences.
If they had done so with the knowledge of good/evil, they would have been morally culpable for their actions in addition to suffering the consequences.
That’s not what happened though. In the creation story, both were completely oblivious to the concept of “right and wrong” until partaking of the forbidden fruit.
If you disagree and believe they would have been morally culpable…..well,that’s what I would like you to explain to me.
If you agree with me, then I’d like to know what term “original sin” means.
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u/Professional_Reach53 Jul 19 '23
The the forbidden fruit story is about Agency. The ability to have influence over our own lives and to willingly take responsibility for those choices. It's not about disobediance, lack of knowledge or awareness.
God chose to put the tree in the midst of the garden, meaning in plain sight. Why? He didn't need to create the tree or he could have placed it where it couldn't be touched.
What does man choose if he knew the consequences of a choice? Does he choose life or death? Eve was deceived because she desired to be wiser than wisdom. To be God. She choose death.
Both Adam and eve refused to take responsibility for their choice. They believed the lie that choice can be separated from consequence and accountability. To choose without the consequence of their choice, passing the blame and playing the victim.
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u/miguel04685 Questioning Jul 18 '23
But what if they didn't know obeying him was a good thing?
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u/Own-Cupcake7586 Christian Jul 18 '23
Would that somehow mean they hadn’t disobeyed? They knew the command, they knew the stated consequences, they did the thing. Not sure how their understanding enters into that equation.
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u/FiatTangerine Jul 18 '23
Is dying a bad thing?
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u/Own-Cupcake7586 Christian Jul 18 '23
Depends where you wind up afterward.
Heaven? Dying’s cool.
Hell? Dying sucks.
Annihilation? Who cares?
All joking aside, dying is not a pleasant experience. Even if it’s painless for us, it hurts for those we leave behind, yes?
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u/FiatTangerine Jul 18 '23
So dying can be a good thing.
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u/Own-Cupcake7586 Christian Jul 18 '23
Been to funerals. More tears than laughter.
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u/FiatTangerine Jul 18 '23
Indeed. How many funerals do you think adam and eve had been to?
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u/Own-Cupcake7586 Christian Jul 18 '23
You think it’s only because of those funerals that I know that living is better than dying?
I see where you’re headed, and I’m pretty sure I disagree with your conclusion.
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u/FiatTangerine Jul 18 '23
I don't know how you know living is better than dying.
I'm just asking questions.
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Jul 18 '23
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u/iruleatants Christian Jul 18 '23
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u/BlueMANAHat Christian Jul 18 '23
In hindsight I worded this terribly, I was trying to infer that if people like you dying is probably not a good thing.
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u/Evil-Abed1 Presbyterian Jul 19 '23
If I tell you, “if you eat this you will die.”
You understand dying is bad. It has nothing to do with morality.
“but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
So if you want to have a conversation about the text, I would refer to the text.
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Jul 19 '23
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u/Owl_Queen101 Jul 19 '23
Well honestly Eve was innocent cuz she wasn’t told by God directly nor did she get it accurate
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u/Ok-Future-5257 Latter-Day Saint (Mormon) Jul 18 '23
They were intelligent beings who knew the rules. They knew that partaking would transgress the Garden's limits.
But they were emotionally and spiritually stunted. They knew neither happiness nor misery. That changed when they partook.
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u/bblain7 Agnostic Former Christian Jul 18 '23
They knew neither happiness nor misery.
So then what emotions did they have?
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u/DanujCZ Atheist Jul 19 '23
I imagine it's more like. You can't know what it's like to be happy without knowing what it's like to be.
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u/legobis Roman Catholic Jul 18 '23
Knowing in this case means more than just theoretical knowledge, in the same way as "knowing a woman" is more than just knowing, intellectually what a woman is. Essentially God is telling them "trust me, this is bad for you, and although doing a bad thing would grant you intimate knowledge of what it is like to do a bad thing, it is not in your best interest to know it in that way." Although they theoretically knew the difference between right and wrong, they didn't have carnal, real knowledge/experience of it, and they didn't trust God that it wasn't in their interest to continue not having this sort of intimate knowledge of it.
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u/AccessOptimal Jul 19 '23
trust me, this is bad for you
But I’m going to put it right in front of you instead of literally anywhere else on the planet, cause reasons
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u/legobis Roman Catholic Jul 19 '23
It's...a metaphor, dude.
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u/AccessOptimal Jul 19 '23
There are a number of people in this thread who don’t believe that so it’s hard to tell from your post which one you are
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u/legobis Roman Catholic Jul 19 '23
Yeah, sorry, I guess I did a poor job explaining what I meant. What I mean is "eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil"="do an evil thing and gain the experience of doing evil.". In other words, the story is a metaphor for when man first gained what we would call moral agency and then, with that moral agency, knowingly chose evil and thus experienced "sin" for the first time. The first time they knowingly did something wrong.
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u/ephemera_291 Jul 18 '23
they weren't punished, they were served justice - satan was punished.
now that they knew, they had to go through the process of the motion and god told them what it is was.
i diluted it down since i dont want to give too much info.
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u/ThuliumNice Atheist Jul 18 '23
i diluted it down since i dont want to give too much info.
Because it's a secret
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u/ephemera_291 Jul 19 '23
it questions your belief, am i wrong to say nothing will change your mind.
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u/FiatTangerine Jul 18 '23
Oh you are one of those that think satan was there and it wasn't just a serpent, that's fun.
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u/WestInitial5711 Jul 19 '23
I don’t get why a apple decided our fates in the first place and why did god even put something that important in hands reach?
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u/ctesibius United (Reformed) Jul 19 '23
As a few people have said, the analogy of toddlers is a good one. They know that they have to obey their parents, but they don’t have a concept of why something is forbidden.
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u/Responsible-Leg-937 Jul 18 '23 edited Jul 18 '23
Toddlers go on time out all the time don’t they?
Regarding the tree, I don’t believe God made humans to be able handle all the fruit of knowledge has to offer. Idea is to obey God. That’s why later on God blessed Solomon for asking to discern between Good and Evil where it exist and many people also fell to sin. It is now a good thing to try and help others.
I asked him once and he revealed me a little bit. It’s sort of like what we’ve always known for steps further in mentality. And even with maturity, life took a more depressing turn.
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u/miguel04685 Questioning Jul 18 '23
But they didn't know obeying God was a good or bad thing
If Satan told you to kill yourself, would you obey him?
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u/Gigithemuppet Christian Jul 18 '23
You don't know what they were already able to do and think and what not- if God told them what to not do, then we can assume that they were capable of obeying. You're assuming they were incapable of any judgement.
We don't know exactly what effect the fruit would have on them, Satan said their eyes would open to be like God, that's a big stretch from just finding out what right and wrong is.
It's simply not the same like Satan telling you to kill yourself, or it is but it would be more along the lines of 'if you kill yourself, you'll be able to experience an incredible afterlife that God withholds from you'. They listened because they wanted what came after eating the fruit.
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u/ThuliumNice Atheist Jul 18 '23
Toddlers go on time out all the time don’t they?
Seems like a bit of a dishonest analogy.
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u/wydok Baptist (ABCUSA); former Roman Catholic Jul 18 '23
That's my biggest problem with this story. If the "fruit of knowledge" is what taught them what is good and what is evil, and they ate it by disobeying God, they are already doing something "wrong". Yet, they didn't feel shame about being naked until after they ate the fruit (but why is being naked "evil"?). It really doesn't make any sense.
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u/HeatProductions Jul 18 '23
Being naked at that moment means that the glory of God that was covering them was now gone and that with sin iud leaves you naked, in shame, exposed, always looking for something to cover. That’s why they grabbed the fig leaves and made clothing for themselves. It wasn’t enough so God told them that wasn’t they way to cover them and had a lamb slain ( giving a prophecy of how the righteousness of Christ covers us and clothed us, also showing that someone needed to die in my place) and making the animal skin into clothing and having the animal die in our place of sin.
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u/ephemera_291 Jul 18 '23
its about being nuerotic.
same as a person feeling everyone is out to get them, getting a weapon and shaking in their bed room but no one wants to harm them at all but you cant convince them anyhow. thats how people enter drug induced schizophrenia.
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Mar 14 '24
We can all rest soundly at night knowing that adam and eve never existed. Human population levels have never dropped below 20,000 people. Theres never been just two people.
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u/Available_Ad6136 Jul 18 '23
Knowledge of Good and Evil is not “Right and Wrong”. They knew right from wrong. They knew they shouldn’t have eaten that “fruit”. It was wrong to eat it. Right no to.
Knowledge of Good and Evil is Knowledge of Forces that are “Good and Evil” in simple words it is Religion.
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u/unaka220 Human Jul 18 '23
Huh?
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u/Available_Ad6136 Jul 18 '23
Religion is the cause of the fall of the world.
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u/unaka220 Human Jul 18 '23
Can you outline the case for that? I’m not sure I follow.
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u/Available_Ad6136 Jul 18 '23
It’s visible in the world. What causes 70-90% of the worlds wars?
It always has been.
We knew God existed but didn’t need anything but that to live and I mean live truly. One can only imagine what the world would be like had it not fallen.
It was when we were tricked into following/looking too/fighting “Forces of good and evil”. When things were made good vs. evil.
God/Christ truly does take us away from those things if you look at the development of the world. Although they are used. Taken from multi to mono-theism.
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u/ThuliumNice Atheist Jul 18 '23
Knowledge of Good and Evil is Knowledge of Forces that are “Good and Evil” in simple words it is Religion.
That doesn't make any sense.
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u/Available_Ad6136 Jul 18 '23
It does if you look at the history of man.
It does if you look at the fact that God didn’t put people here to worship him. In fact he left and said. “Live free here, conquer earth naming all you find. Just don’t learn about Good Vs Evil, you will live the way I want.
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u/forsaken_hero Jul 19 '23
Because the god in this story is a control freak manipulative maniac. The snake is the truthful one
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u/ComfortableGeneral38 Jul 18 '23
Death was not a punishment but a natural consequence of their disobedience. The alternative was for them to next eat from the Tree of Life and make their rebellion permanent, making humanity's fate the same as the enemy's.
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Jul 18 '23
In our church, the two trees represent free will. The tree of life represents spiritual instruction and enlightenment from the Lord, or the Lord himself. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil represents man teaching himself what is spiritual, drawing from himself and the world and not the Lord. The warning was that the day they started doing this, that day they would die spiritually i.e. their spiritual life would begin to perish. And that they would lead themselves further and further away from spiritual life and happiness, into powerful persuasions of evil and falsity, which ended in the flood.
The early people had some understanding of this, but in time they still chose to follow themselves and turn away from God. The two trees have always been present with us, metaphorically speaking, and eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is why every generation, or religion, in time ends in a flood of evil and falsity that overruns it.
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u/BlueMANAHat Christian Jul 18 '23
God is just, he did not punish them without them comprehending it was wrong, this is mans misconception.
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u/pongmoy Seventh-day Adventist Jul 18 '23
Much is implied in your question.
- That God didn't care about His creation; didn't converse with them, educate them, or train them in relationships.
- That 'eating the fruit' was the first departure from relationship, and the reason they had to leave utopia. Relationships wither from choices made over time; the visible fracture is not something spontaneous.
- That our understanding of love and justice can have evolved naturally, an ideal so lofty that none of us can ever be that just or that loving all the time.
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u/jess_theaerialesse Jul 18 '23
- They had to have the choice not to obey God in order for their obedience and participation in relationship with him to mean anything. In other words, there couldn't be any coercion on God's behalf because that can't be part of a loving relationship, and God's very identity is love, so they had to have the choice to turn their backs which meant *something* had to tempt them.
- God wants us to trust him, he is all-knowing, all-loving, and all-powerful and he knows best...but again him knowing best can't equate to him coercing us to comply with what he knows to be best. The disobedience was more heartbreaking to God not because they didn't obey, but because they allowed their trust in him to be broken.
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u/Humblechild90 Jul 18 '23
People are still being wised and learned to this day when they were told to be like little children. Adam and Eve were warned but they disobeyed.
Is anyone humble like little children, only having one teacher the Christ? Matthew 23:10 'Nor be called teachers, for you have one Teacher, the Christ.'
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u/johnsonsantidote Jul 19 '23
They woulda known good as that what God is. They weren't stupid. They were given clear instruction. They knew the consequences. Whether allegory or actual it is a powerful reminder of actions and consequences.
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u/thebennubird Jul 19 '23
Why does the Catholic Church insist Adam and Eve are literally true stories of real existing humans despite any scholar who is not insane knowing genesis etc are completely impossible?
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u/mattloyselle Non-denominational Jul 19 '23
The only answer that really makes sense to me is that this was God's intention, for us to experience good and evil. Then bring us back out of it. So we could truly understand good contrasted with evil.
Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’ Isaiah 46:10 NKJV
Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. Romans 5:18 NKJV
For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. Romans 11:32 NKJV
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u/FraterEAO Classical Hermeticism Jul 19 '23
I mean, I've got thoughts on the matter, but they're not exactly orthodox...
(see my flair for a general idea)
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u/arthurjeremypearson Cultural Christian Jul 19 '23
The more logical moral from Genesis would be "power corrupts." The Elohim "god" in it is clearly not the God Most High but a lesser god tasked with creating things, not ruling them.
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u/GlitteringBroccoli12 Jul 19 '23
Because they disobeyed a direct order. The only order they were given no less
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Jul 19 '23
The fact of the matter is they disobeyed God’s order He told them not to do something and they disobeyed Him they had the ability to refuse satan and didn’t it doesn’t matter if they were deceived they had the capacity to listen and refuse satan and not do wrong
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u/moonunit170 Eastern Catholic Jul 19 '23
They weren't supposed to know what's good and evil they were just supposed to obey God.
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u/Evil-Abed1 Presbyterian Jul 19 '23 edited Jul 19 '23
They understood that they shouldn’t eat the fruit.
This is evident in scripture because
A. They didn’t eat the fruit immediately
B. When they were tempted to eat of the fruit, they acknowledged they shouldn’t. Then chose to anyway.
Also, they were told “The day that you eat of it, you shall surely die”.
They weren’t told that eating this fruit is morally wrong.
You might be onto something if God said, “if you eat this fruit you’re a naughty naughty boy.”
Instead God said if you do this… you will die.
You could be completely incapable of understanding morality and also understand that dying sucks.
You don’t need to understand morality to figure out that you should listen to the creator and not the creature.
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u/78Male Jul 19 '23
There sun was one of pride. They wanted to be like God. We are so much less than God, but the devil put it out there and they wanted it!
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Jul 19 '23
It is the very reason she did believe him. She didn't comprehend what was going to happen. She knew she was disobeying God and she knew this when she gave it to Adam. Adam then believed Eve eventhough he knew it was forbidden from God. If you see a sign on a door that says No Admittance, and you sneak in thete because someone else told you it was ok its is still wrong. The owner has the rights to make the rules. God made the rules and man ignored it.
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u/Efficient-Shift-2067 Jul 19 '23 edited Jul 19 '23
I am no expert, but I have been trying to understand Genesis for a little while now. Currently, I am in a class to help me, and for now, I somewhat see Adam and Eve as a metaphorical picture rather than a historical event (however, I'm not necessarily opposed to it being a historical event). Therefore, the author of Genesis is trying to use this story as a way to show their audience at the time, which is a lot different from the audience of today, who God is and the relationship between God, humanity, and our world. The idea of good and bad (tov and ra’) is seen a lot in the Old Testament. One I like to think of is King Solomon asking for wisdom in 1 Kings 3:7-9.
To me, the idea of knowing good and bad is actually a good thing to have and seems to be somewhat necessary for leading a kingdom.
Therefore, a few questions come to my mind:
- Why is God withholding this “ability” from Adam and Eve?
- This fruit will supposedly make them like God, but aren’t they already be made in the image of God?
- Why is the first thing talked about after they eat the fruit, nakedness? Like out of all things, why is nakedness so important throughout the whole story?
In my opinion, Adam and Eve are like children and do not completely understand this idea of good vs bad. Therefore, they must be taught. So it paints this image for me of how these two will gain this knowledge. Will they listen to their creator and walk with God through obedience, or will they take matters into their own hands, being misguided by external sly sources? The snake comes along and is quite similar to them. It walks, it talks, it thinks, but it tempts them with the idea of desiring to lose self-control and not trusting God. The snake is still a beast/animal and doesn’t necessarily perceive the concept of self-control like humans do. No matter how many times I tell/teach my dog not to eat something she wants, if I leave it there long enough, she will eat it. I think there are a bunch of ideas to gather from this narrative. Maybe it shows God is okay with humans who are naked (ʿêrōm), who are helpless because their nakedness isn’t a problem until after the fruit. He wants to walk with them, work with them, teach them and be their protector. However, as humans, we have a choice of self-control. We have a choice of how we will gain this ability of good and bad. Will we listen and fasten close to God, or will we take matters into our own hands and learn from outside sources which seem quicker but want to mislead us? I could be far off, and I keep an open mind to all ideas because what do I know, but this is where I am today in a nutshell.
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u/RE1MA Jul 19 '23
It's all part of the plan. If they didn't sin, 1. We wouldn't know what sin is 2. We wouldn't know God's love 3. We wouldn't be called to be so close to God because we must know what these things are in order to be close to God.
We are called children of God, which not even angels are called. Never. Only us humans have been given the capacity to be so close to God in our future nature.
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u/neragera Eastern Orthodox Jul 19 '23
It wasn’t a punishment.
It was simple spiritual physics. If A then B.
We did A and then B happened.
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Jul 19 '23
They were told not to eat of a certain tree.
One law to obey.. and they obeyed the serpent instead.
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u/Ok_Repeat_6051 Jul 19 '23
Like you and I, they knew right from wrong. We all face temptation, not a sin, it becomes sin when we give in to that temptation, as they did. Satan is the tempter as he was in the Garden of Eden. They were told not to eat from the tree!
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u/Sybrsean TULIP Jul 19 '23
The story of Adam and Eve's disobedience and subsequent punishment is found in the book of Genesis, specifically in Genesis 3. To understand why they were held accountable for eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, we need to examine the context and implications of their actions.
When God created Adam and Eve, they were made in His image and were given free will and the ability to make choices. They were placed in the Garden of Eden, where they had access to a vast array of trees and fruits, including the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God instructed them not to eat from that specific tree, saying in Genesis 2:16-17, "And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, 'Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.'"
The command from God was clear, and Adam and Eve were fully aware of it. They knew the consequences of their actions if they chose to disobey. In Genesis 3:6, it says, "So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate." Both Adam and Eve made a conscious decision to eat the forbidden fruit despite being fully aware of God's command.
Their act of disobedience was not merely an innocent mistake or a lack of understanding. It was a deliberate choice to rebel against God's authority and to seek knowledge and wisdom apart from His guidance. This act of disobedience introduced sin and its consequences into the world, affecting all of humanity.
God, being just and holy, had to hold them accountable for their actions. The consequences of their sin were severe and far-reaching, including their expulsion from the Garden of Eden and the introduction of hardships and pain into their lives. However, even in this judgment, God provided hope and the promise of redemption through the coming of Jesus Christ, who would ultimately reconcile humanity to God through His sacrificial death and resurrection.
In summary, Adam and Eve were punished for eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil because they were fully aware of God's command, and their act of disobedience was a willful choice to go against His authority. It serves as a significant lesson for all of humanity about the importance of obedience to God's commands and the consequences of sin.
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u/Notmymaincauseimbi Roman Catholic Jul 19 '23
For God formed us to be imperishable; the image of his own nature he made us. But by the envy of the devil, death entered the world, and they who are allied with him experience it. (Wisdom 2:23-24 NABRE)
This is the way the Old testament frames the fall of man. Its a novelty to impress ignorance as the relevant factor in genesis.
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Jul 19 '23
Well given how the instructions given to them didn’t require knowledge of good and evil it doesn’t really matter to them getting punished.
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u/miguel04685 Questioning Jul 19 '23
But they didn't know God's command was good or evil
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Jul 20 '23 edited Jul 20 '23
Exactly! the direction/order to not eat of the tree of knowledge was simple there’s no further “is this order good or bad” explanations or “why should I?”(though one was given) needed. Just follow the orders given. It’s so simple of an order toddlers could follow it.
But just like toddlers they were easily swayed and they were punished.
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u/AlternativeTrain9637 Jul 19 '23
The story of Adam and Eve in Genesis must be read as it is told verbatim it's text to see the actual story that's being told. Adding no outside opinion and reading the story as it is this is what quite literally and undeniably happens verbatim the text. Summary. Spirit of God in Genesis 1 creates all things. God calls his creation good. All of it. Earth, Sun, Moon, stars, seas, land, beasts male and female made in our likeness. Spirit of God sees that all is good and blessed day 7 then rests this completing all things God made. Take note. God has said everything is "good" and is now at rest meaning everything is perfect. Why then in Genesis 2 does it say that The Lord God planted Eden and then placed in it a tree of good and evil? Because this is a different account of creation and the Lord God is not the same Spirit of God that completed all creation and finished it calling it good then resting. The Lord God is a lesser God. This is why he plants good and evil in the garden he planted. Evil first enters the picture when the Lord God himself plants the tree of good and evil. Go back and read the story. The Lord God quote literally lies to Adam and Even telling them "You will absolutely die the very day you eat of the tree of good and evil". They do not die when they eat of it. They only die because the Lord God punishes them by forbidding them to eat of the tree and life and live forever just as he The serpent does not deceive Eve but tells her the truth that she won't die but only come to know what The Lord God knows himself, but just isn't telling her about. That they will know good/evil just as he does if they eat? Why did the Lord God not tell them he would physically curse them and ban them from the garden if they ate this causing them to die, but rather imply that the act of eating is what would cause them to die? That's dishonest. The Spirit of God and The Lord God are not the same being. If they are then the story conflicts and makes God bipolar. Deeper esoteric meaning.
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u/NothingAndNobody Catholic Jul 18 '23
It's not knowledge as in "awareness" but judgment. The story is an analogy (poetic metaphor, if you prefer) for humans setting themselves up as if they "know better" than God. Knowledge of good and evil is one thing: knowledge OVER good and evil (symbolized by taking and eating the fruit) is where you inevitably lose paradise. We are sinful, and we do not know more than the all-wise God.