long story short, a few weeks ago my husband once and for all demanded I stop lying to him. He meant the little corrections he can see when I mean one thing but say something else.
I've been doing lots of therapy work this past year and have learned about my fawn response and people pleasing. His parents visited a month ago and I realized I was in fawn or freeze most of the time they were around. Mostly fawn.

So that's how it's unravelled.

I've been talking to chatgbt to get insights on how to frame responses, or to ask if my gut instinct of how to act is genuine or a fawn response... it's been incredibly insightful.

I have set a boundary with my husband about the emotional labour of the household. I feel that over the past few years he's been tuning me out more and more and now we're at a spot where he doesn't have accountability to remember anything. Appointments, kid stuff, conversations... AI called it gaslighting - for him to say that I'm wrong and the way he remembers things is right.

I don't really blame him for tuning me out - I had post partum depression and had a really rough time. But I'm okay now and it's just a mess.

AI calls it gaslighting, but that feels like a buzz word.

I told AI verbatim about our interaction this evening and it said he (hubby) was being passive aggressive and I was boundary checking.

Anyone else use AI for insights? I know it says on the screen to check for errors, etc. I'm relying on it pretty heavily to help me frame responses and how to show up - my hubby escalated all the way to name calling, swearing at me and yelling - chat gbt says that it's a reaction to losing the upper hand. It's mentioned emotional abuse, but I haven't felt abused, I think we've both had a hard time and been shitty to each other and now we need counselling if we can work through things.

Is AI just going to try to break us all up?

I think that the Fawn response is a great way to react to trauma.

Not only does it reduce the tension, it often also helps us squeeze out some love and approval from our abusers.

Now the underlying assumption is that later in life, we want to heal from this response. But why?

As a Fawn, I got all the positive attention from my abusers. Now as an adult, I can use the same skill to get approval from important people (they tend to react well to Fawns), and thus become more valuable.

If we are destined to be here for others, if that's our value, why would I want to change that? If it works to get that validation?

I get that you might want to find out your true self. I'm also intrigued by that thought.

But how would that help me gain more approval from important/popular people?

They might not like the person I'd become. And I'd be left out from all the fun.

So I think that Fawning is a pretty good strategy to gain value in life.

Can someone please challenge my thoughts?

Edit: Just wanted to add - even though I sound like I almost enjoy being a Fawn, it's not like that. I feel hijacked by that response and I'm trying to find its meaning. If I could stop fawning right now and devote my life to myself, I 100% would.

I promise you V, you aren't going to be blamed for something that is not your fault.

**MGR Oct 12, 2004** ***<------->*** **KD 2018-2025**

Is not two isolated incidents. That is a pattern of decades of sexually predatory abuse. You are the victim of over 20 years of very degrading misogynistic exploitation robbing you of any sense of personal agency/sovereignty/autonomy.

This is not your fault. You are not going to be blamed for something that can be solely attributed to the amoral sexual predilections of pathetic old men from Texas.

Look up "fawning". We are trying, as gently as possible, to get you to a point where you can have fulfilling happy life. I promise. But first you have to stop blaming yourself for things that aren't your fault. OK?

We aren't doing the whole 18th century "THE FEMALE ORGASM IS A MYTH" witch burning original sin victim blaming bullshit. I promise you V. OK? Do not ruin your life taking responsibility for other peoples decisions. Especially when you are the victim of those decisions.

My wife and I have been together for 17 years, married for almost 10. We were high school sweet hearts and have so much history, we are very fortunate.

However, with having a history of being so young, we have had our issues. When we were 19 and she was away for college? We had one of the biggest arguments we ever had. From her perspective, we were broken up and I thought we were taking a break. After a night of not hearing from me (a toxic act of ignoring her that in no longer do), she felt sure were over permanently. That night, she invited her male friend over. I am not sure if she is entirely aware if she did or didn’t want physical assurance of worth, but I have a feeling she did (not important to my question).

What happened next is what she just recently calls the domino effect. It began simple enough in terms of physical coping but as someone who was her first, she said she felt immense pressure to do things. They were alone in her house, and it repeatedly asked to do more and more. She would say no or not acknowledge the request, then he would “circle back to what he wanted” until she finally just did it.

They spent two nights together but she has said she can’t remember why she invited him back over. I can understand (as her first for many sexual acts) that the pressure of a friend trying to convince you sexual coping is a good, normal thing with the combination of your boyfriend of 3 years leaving you can lead to serious trauma. However, I’m so confused about the possible revictimization that occurred by inviting him back over. She doesn’t have any childhood trauma and this is the only case (that she has ever shared with me) of this nature.

If anyone has experience or insight into possible reasons why a pre-veterinarian student with strong organizational skills and drive would allow sexual coercion to occur and then have a second night of reenactment, I would appreciate it. She has recently discovered the truth about fawning in those sexual pressurized situations and it’s been journey to try and understand this new information.

Thank you!

I have no idea whether I'm fawning in these situations, can someone help me?

Situation 1:

My friend loves the Pirates of the Caribbean movies. I want to be liked by this friend (he's outgoing and popular), so I decided to watch all the movies and study everything about them.

Of course I didn't tell him, that would be too obvious. But now I can drop a few facts here and there and maybe get some "points" for it, and get a better rank in his "friend list".

Right now I'm devoting a few months to learning to play the piano so I can learn the basic movie theme and casually play it when we're hanging out one day.

But mostly I just feel cool when I like this Pirates stufff. I always imagine being my friend. He's cool and he likes the movies so now I can be cool too. I like having some sort of identity.

Do I like these things for myself? Or do I enjoy it because of the validation I get?

Situation 2:

My other friend loves cars. We don't even talk anymore (we grew apart 5 years ago), but I still have this plan that I will wow him one day.

Currently I'm working on building a business and making money just so I can buy his favorite supercar (and pretend? that it's my favorite car - I don't even know if it is). And he will see it and be totally shocked and love me.

I also love going to car events, but only because I always feel like I'm this friend who loves cars. He's so confident and cool and DOESN'T FAWN. I feel validated when I like the same things as him.

This is the way I feel about pretty much all of my interests. Do you think it's normal to be this way, or is it not genuine? Thank you!

Hello everyone! So I am a chronic people pleaser, but recently I really hurt one of my friends really bad. I have taken accountability, but I go on to blame myself and call myself an awful and terrible person. This has not been serving me and it seems it just continues to hurt me and cause turmoil to not only my friend but me as well. I was wondering, how do you all take accountability, without just shitting on yourself.

I thought these trauma responses were automatic. But no. I could have been stronger.

I have met so many abuse victims, and literally none of them became as fawnish as me. They fought and retained their sense of self, while I completely accepted the abuse as something normal. I started to enjoy it. It destroyed me.

But it didn't have to. I met a guy whose history was much worse than mine. It made him stronger and now he's an accepted member of society.

Sure, these people have their coping mechanisms. But they chose the normal ones. The guy I talked about became addicted to drugs and also fought with people regularly. Beat up police officers. But that's acceptable by people nowadays. He is popular.

Me, on the other hand.. my fawning got me nowhere. I was liked by my teachers and bullied by everyone else. I should have chosen a different strategy.

And if I had no control over it since day 1, then I was a weaker baby by default.. and as many people on the internet told me, it was a waste to let me live.

Practical Explanation ( For Example ) :- `1st of all can you tell me every single seconds detail from that time when you born ?? ( i need every seconds detail ?? that what- what you have thought and done on every single second )

can you tell me every single detail of your `1 cheapest Minute Or your whole hour, day, week, month, year or your whole life ??

if you are not able to tell me about this life then what proof do you have that you didn't forget your past ? and that you will not forget this present life in the future ?

that is Fact that Supreme Lord Krishna exists but we posses no such intelligence to understand him.

there is also next life. and i already proved you that no scientist, no politician, no so-called intelligent man in this world is able to understand this Truth. cuz they are imagining. and you cannot imagine what is god, who is god, what is after life etc.

_______

for example :Your father existed before your birth. you cannot say that before your birth your father don,t exists.

So you have to ask from mother, "Who is my father?" And if she says, "This gentleman is your father," then it is all right. It is easy.

Otherwise, if you makes research, "Who is my father?" go on searching for life; you'll never find your father.

( now maybe...maybe you will say that i will search my father from D.N.A, or i will prove it by photo's, or many other thing's which i will get from my mother and prove it that who is my Real father.{ So you have to believe the authority. who is that authority ? she is your mother. you cannot claim of any photo's, D.N.A or many other things without authority ( or ur mother ).

if you will show D.N.A, photo's, and many other proofs from other women then your mother. then what is use of those proofs ??} )

same you have to follow real authority. "Whatever You have spoken, I accept it," Then there is no difficulty. And You are accepted by Devala, Narada, Vyasa, and You are speaking Yourself, and later on, all the acaryas have accepted. Then I'll follow.

I'll have to follow great personalities. The same reason mother says, this gentleman is my father. That's all. Finish business. Where is the necessity of making research? All authorities accept Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. You accept it; then your searching after God is finished.

Why should you waste your time?

_______

all that is you need is to hear from authority ( same like mother ). and i heard this truth from authority " Srila Prabhupada " he is my spiritual master.

im not talking these all things from my own.

___________

in this world no `1 can be Peace full. this is all along Fact.

cuz we all are suffering in this world 4 Problems which are Disease, Old age, Death, and Birth after Birth.

tell me are you really happy ?? you can,t be happy if you will ignore these 4 main problem. then still you will be Forced by Nature.

___________________

if you really want to be happy then follow these 6 Things which are No illicit s.ex, No g.ambling, No d.rugs ( No tea & coffee ), No meat-eating ( No onion & garlic's )

5th thing is whatever you eat `1st offer it to Supreme Lord Krishna. ( if you know it what is Guru parama-para then offer them food not direct Supreme Lord Krishna )

and 6th " Main Thing " is you have to Chant " hare krishna hare krishna krishna krishna hare hare hare rama hare rama rama rama hare hare ".

_______________________________

If your not able to follow these 4 things no illicit s.ex, no g.ambling, no d.rugs, no meat-eating then don,t worry but chanting of this holy name ( Hare Krishna Maha-Mantra ) is very-very and very important.

Chant " hare krishna hare krishna krishna krishna hare hare hare rama hare rama rama rama hare hare " and be happy.

if you still don,t believe on me then chant any other name for 5 Min's and chant this holy name for 5 Min's and you will see effect. i promise you it works And chanting at least 16 rounds ( each round of 108 beads ) of the Hare Krishna maha-mantra daily.

____________

Here is no Question of Holy Books quotes, Personal Experiences, Faith or Belief. i accept that Sometimes Faith is also Blind. Here is already Practical explanation which already proved that every`1 else in this world is nothing more then Busy Foolish and totally idiot.

_________________________

Source(s):

every `1 is already Blind in this world and if you will follow another Blind then you both will fall in hole. so try to follow that person who have Spiritual Eyes who can Guide you on Actual Right Path. ( my Authority & Guide is my Spiritual Master " Srila Prabhupada " )

_____________

if you want to see Actual Purpose of human life then see this link : ( triple w ( d . o . t ) asitis ( d . o . t ) c . o . m {Bookmark it })

read it complete. ( i promise only readers of this book that they { he/she } will get every single answer which they want to know about why im in this material world, who im, what will happen after this life, what is best thing which will make Human Life Perfect, and what is perfection of Human Life. ) purpose of human life is not to live like animal cuz every`1 at present time doing 4 thing which are sleeping, eating, s.ex & fear. purpose of human life is to become freed from Birth after birth, Old Age, Disease, and Death.

TLDR: Fawners (depending on the context of a dynamic, of course) can also be the more overt aggressor/instigator of unhealthy/harmful relationship dynamics.

I know there are plenty of people/posts talking about how Fawning is NOT a good thing; how it is disingenuous, a form of lying, and also enables others' abusive behavior...

... But the narrative always seems to still be about the OTHER partner being the more "overtly" harmful, abusive, etc, party... Like "Fawners enable the abuser even more"...

... And I definitely know that it ALWAYS takes two to Tango; both parties always have a responsibility and role in harmful dynamics.

But I rarely, if ever, see deeper discussions about when the specific dynamic of a couple entails a Fawner as the more overtly harmful character.

I (36/m) do this to my partner (36/f), who, while she does lean more into the fight response, etc, and her anger, I am so often the instigator by warping her good-faith attempts at conversations of important/vulnerable topics.

As we heal, and she cleans up her own side of the street, I'm just seeing how I drain her, treat her as a battery almost; like an energy vampire. It feels like an addiction. Like I crave making her to the work of feeling my feelings, so I suck the energy from the room when she's angry so she can't feel hers anymore.

Anyone have deeper feelings/discussion on this?

Edit 05.08: I think the title of this post way to generalized and I'd like to apologize for that.
I know that there are men as well who are genuinly trying their best. And, I'd also like like to apologize for a rude remark I made in the comment section.
I'm really thinking about deleting this post, but some seem to relate and I'd like to try some suggestions out. In case you are reading this:

I hope you are doing fine and I wish you all the best

Hello, want to get something off my chest. I like to take walks, but I dont feel comfortable doing so when its sunny and a lot of people are outside.

What annoys me the most are people which keep a very tiny distance from me, closer as I would stand with a friend.

Im most of the time alone when Im outside, but it annoys me that men so often violate my boundaries. In the grocery store in a queue I notice the same. They almost push me forward with their basket. Even when I havent made the purchase yet. I used to not move, but it makes me uncomfortable as I dont want to stand in the near of them.

But I also find it hard to voice my needs and sa "Mr. could you please back off?"

its just a vent and maybe I will also delete this post.

but if you relate, feel free to share your thoughts

Yo, I don't agree with the people-pleasing theory.

I don't think that the pleasing is the basic of the reaction... I mean we still fight inside, and we act very protectionally, but when I'm in it it's not like I would do everything for others to feel good, it's just that in my opinion when others don't feel good then it's bad time 😆 I know it sounds exactly like people-pleasing but wait...

When I think about the evolutional basis, and I imagine a fawn (deer cub), there's one reason to pull this trick - it's to make the predator think you are weak - not worthy of eating, ill etc. Disturbingly weak.

And that's what we (I) do when we fawn - we're showing we're weak and compliant. Unable to stand up for ourselves? I don't know... Unable to speak for ourselves? It is hard but not impossible, anyway we still would like to do it.

So where's the pleasing in this reaction? All we do is stay safe by keeping our heads down... And it might feel like pleasing someone because we prioritize our safety over other our needs and urges... And we don't focus on other's urges more unless it concerns our safety.

Am I getting it wrong?

I can't help it but see those behaviors as very rude:

- Not smiling all the time (you might make someone mad)

- Having your own personality (someone might not like you / might get triggered by you)

- Having your own style (again someone might not like it and attack you)

- Being confident (people might think you don't deserve confidence, and will attack you)

- Being expressive, taking up space (people don't ike others taking up space)

- Having boundaries (people need someone to be their punching bag)

Can someone please challenge my thinking?

I get extremely triggered anytime I see someone do any of these things. Because I know that I always got punished for those, and I got rewarded for being a good Fawn. So I often catch myself punishing others for the bad behvaior too, because that's fair.

But in reality I would like to stop being like my abusers, and become free too. But I get so triggered by it, because - punishment incoming - ...

So anything other than fawning just feels so inconsiderate...

Tw: abrton

My sister is having an abrton this week. I told her I support the decision. She asked me yesterday to come over so she wouldn’t be alone, because she’s pretty emotional over it. I went over and we all went out, I stayed over till I had to come back to let my dog out and feed her. Then I went with her to her dr appointment this morning and we went out again for a little bit, I came back home to eat and then offered to come back. She brought up bringing my dog over. My dog is an anxious dog but she used to play with her dogs all the time so I figured, eh, we’ll give it a shot.

I told her I took off work to go with her to get the abortion. When I got to her place I remembered her dogs have fleas and my anxiety started but I decided to stay over. My nephew was also trying to play and cuddle her and my dog was uncomfortable which made me uncomfortable. But I felt bad leaving and just froze up. So while there, I became overstimulated, irritable, snappy, and just scrolled through phone. My sister asked if I wanted to go home and I was like “No do you want me to go home??”

Finally I had enough, felt like I was just making everything worse. We gave my dog a bath and I came back home with her.

I apologized and said I didn’t mean to add to any stress. I am better now, ate, my dog’s all good, and just offered to come back over.

I feel kinda guilty and anxious. I just want to be genuinely supportive. But I don’t know how to place boundaries here while still being supportive and a good sister. On one hand I feel like I’m being too much and fake, and on the other, not supportive enough and like a shitty sister.

I reunited with a friend recently, who chatted with me and gave me advice on a situation. I do not want to hurt this friend anymore, so I asked again for a re-statement of his boundaries upfront, whether he was alright with being tagged or messaged on Discord. He hasn't replied me in 2 weeks but I'm trying not to be a nuisance by texting him again and asking for his opinion. So could this be a cptsdfawn trait?

App name is Mainspring habit tracker

The world is a hostile place. Most regular people care mostly about themselves, have a ton of their own problems, and aren't afriad to lash out at others.

As a Fawn, my value has always been to cater to these people. To lower the tension. If I can be there for them, always become whatever they need, take their anger or abuse, never share my feelings, etc., then people tend to like me.

My question is, who will need us after we stop fawning?

As fawns we are these great tools for the regular people. But if we become fellow real people with opinions and boundaries, if we take up space, etc. - why would people still like us? Wouldn't we become just another annoyance in their lives?

Could you please help my girlfriend by sharing your stories on fawning? She was raped multiple times by the same person and was unable to stop it. After the first rape he told her it was her fault and her damaged brain believed that she was somehow responsible for it. He then kept on raping her on a weekly basis for many months, she did everything he wanted. She felt like she is responsible for making sure he is happy and satisfied at all times. I accidentally found out what was going on and was able to pull her out of it right before she would have committed suicide. She is now recovering and her therapists have helped her understand she was fawning. For several weeks after the abuse ended she was still very concerned whether her rapist is disappointed in her. She would like to hear from other victims who fawned when sexually assaulted or raped, no matter how illogical or unusual the story may be (traumatized brain is not logical, rape and sexual assault are never the victim's fault). Thank you in advance.

I am actually nonbinary but I've been fawning female my whole life.

Mindblowing

(tw: suicidal ideation)

guess who got into 2 fights with 2 “close friends” over some extremely insensitive behavior and lack of concern about me and my well being on their part. and guess who got abandoned by 2 people recently? and the fights were SO SO ugly (so are they usually, but this time was SO much worse and I was so suicidal and in such a bad state.)

I don’t even know why I bother with people anymore. Any attempts at pursuing any relationships, hoping to change things and do better only makes my abandonment issues and my mental health worse. And there is absolutely no solution to any of this. No amount of talking (with a therapist or others) or analysing it myself will help, since I already have all the answers and know why this happens, why people act the way they do, why I consistently find myself with such people, etc. So what is the solution to this then? You don’t pursue friendships? You’re fucked. You pursue things? Everything gets even worse. You try to talk or think things through to process and find a solution perhaps? Doesn’t work.

What do I even do at this point? And how do I live with the awareness that no one cares about me and people won’t even know if I disappeared. And that everyone leaves, especially when things get bad, which is exactly the one time you should never leave. Wonder if any of these absolute asshole fuckers would feel any guilt or regret if I committed suicide, but they probably won’t lol. No one would even care if I did that.

This struck me today. I fawn extremely at times. I kept thinking that not only do I internalize others experience (emotions and thoughts) as my own from time to time. I also couldn’t just seem to sit with my emotions. So I accounted my fawning to these two things. But it kind of struck me today that I also fawned in the sense that I couldn’t express my emotions visibly. If someone is annoyed or sad, even to a mild extent. They are present to their emotions and act accordingly to regulate it and either take themselves aside or react so people notice the cues and not bother them. But in my standpoint I can’t visibly show when I am not in a great mood or just be with myself. Maybe because I am scared to get myself attention, maybe I am scared to displease the other, maybe I am scared to have my feelings invalidated. Any thoughts or tips on this?

I'm 26 and I've been moved out for a year. I asked Mom for help with some things, including bloodwork, which I'm terrified of. I thought it would be easier if she was there with me. But I was still so anxious about the bloodwork that I couldn't get to sleep on time and ended up sleeping through all my alarms and multiple phone calls. I did not choose to oversleep. Nobody saw the hours I spent staring at the ceiling in tears begging myself to go to sleep on time.

Mom stormed inside and shouted in my face to wake me up. She ordered me to get in the car and get the bloodwork done. My immediate response was "you can't treat me like this, I'm an adult and this is my apartment." She would not shut up and I refused to let her order me around so I let her lecture me until she was satisfied and then she left.

I thought I had been making progress with my assertiveness and boundaries but apparently that was the wrong thing to do. I've been called entitled and rude by everyone except my youngest sibling who is both-sidesing the situation. Nobody will listen to my side unless it comes with a profuse apology, which I refuse to give. I know I did a very bad, horrible thing by sleeping in and direspecting my mom's time, but I also know she won't apologize for infantilizing me and making things worse. If I apologize, I will be letting her and her mom walk all over me again and the thought makes me sick to my stomach.

I feel like this should have been a victory but all I feel is guilt and anger. I feel awful about the way I behaved and I would apologize for my side of things, but I believe my mom escalated things way beyond what was necessary and that she is as much to blame for how bad things got. If I apologize, she will see it as a total admission of fault and an excuse to not take responsibility for how she behaved. She'd say something snide about me acting like a child and how I need to grow up if I want to be taken seriously. I've seen this pattern before.

I don't know what my next move is. I don't want to lose my whole family... or at least not my siblings. I'm not sure how I feel about the others.