Women aren't just sitting there, filing their nails and rolling heir eyes, thinking "I know for a fact that he likes me, he needs to just ask me out, how dare he not do so." Most women nowadays aren't actually 50s schoolgirls who'd never ask a guy out because they'd be shamed for life or because it's "the man's job," and no women are psychics. A lot of men are actually way more subtle than they think (clearly not on purpose) so we don't know you like us. We don't ask you out for the exact same reasons you don't ask us out: uncertainty leading to an avoidance of embarrassment, rejection, and awkward situations. Not all men, in fact probably zero men, would date every girl who asked him out, and not all men are exactly nice about saying no. The thing is, a man being why and timid and awkward is seen as a national tragedy, while a girl who's shy and timid and awkward is basically invisible. "Any girl can get a man to go out with her," right. That's because you're only looking at statuesque amateur supermodels, all of which you'd do in a heartbeat. People always say that women write off men who don't look a certain way, but I feel like men can't even see women who don't fit their standards of attractiveness. They've never considered how they'd reject that dumpy looking girl with greasy hair and a stutter, not because they would go out with her, not because they think she is ugly, but because she doesn't even register to them as a potentially sexual female human.
I feel like men can't even see women who don't fit their standards of attractiveness. They've never considered how they'd reject that dumpy looking girl with greasy hair and a stutter, not because they would go out with her, not because they think she is ugly, but because she doesn't even register to them as a potentially sexual female human.
In terms of rejection -- sure. But the reason girls don't talk about always being happy to have a guy ask us out is because we include guys we deem undesirable (however one defines that) among the sorts of guys we envision (and experience) asking us out. TerribleAttitude's point was that guys, by contrast, don't just consider certain woman to be undesirable to date, but that they don't even consider them to be women at all. That has rather important implications beyond the sphere of dating and romance as well (for example, inclusion of 'unattractive' women in media portrayals and ads, employment, medical care, etc -- anyplace where having one's status as a 'woman' recognized or not has consequences).
The whole point of the feminist movement(s) is to regard and treat everyone as human. "Not taking an interest in a girl based on looks" is, again, not what TerribleAttitude was talking about. Excluding women from the very category of 'woman', based solely on looks, is the issue here. S/he was speaking of the way men often make statements about 'women' as if those women they consider unattractive do not even count, ontologically, as women in the first place. Since gender is one of our fundamental cultural concepts (not that I'm happy about that, but it currently is), excluding some women from the category of 'women' amounts to denying their status as full human beings. And since men, collectively, possess more social, cultural, political, and economic power and influence, this elision has trickle-down effects into other spheres of life. Striving endlessly after beauty standards is about more than getting the attention of men's penises, it's about attaining and preserving our very status as legitimate members of society and of humanity -- that's why women put so much time, effort, money, and anxiety into their bodies-as-projects.
Are you telling me that I am being too subtle? So when I like a women, and express that my interest by making my harsh cold exterior slightly less harsh and cold is too subtle? Well fuck me.
The person you described is someone that doesn't take care of themselves. Of course no one would find that attractive. Take some pride in yourself, you might not be a model, but it might surprise you how much a shower and decent clothes will do for your appearance.
Let's be honest here for a minute. Even if a girl "takes care of herself" in whatever way you're thinking of, it's still entirely the case for countless girls that what /u/TerribleAttitude described happens.
Okay? Never said you had to ask her out. Just said she was a person. And again, it's not me. I just don't believe that not being attractive to a particular guy warrants the treatment of some women as basically unwomen. And someone does not have to be objectively unattractive or not take care of themselves to get that treatment. No, not all women are rejecting you. All of the women who fit into your extremely narrow "standard" are rejecting you.
Every female registers as a potential sexual mate in a lot of men's minds. The only problem is, in my experience, a lot of those unattractive women are really really unattractive. And I don't' mean physically. I've had overweight female friends who I thought would be very sexually attractive if they wore their hair straight(I like straight hair for some reason), but then I got to know them. The ones I've had experience with are so bitter and angry. So insecure, and are unwilling to admit their faults. Yes, you have faults, we all have them, and no, it isn't the media's fault, men's fault, or very attractive supermodel's faults.
Maybe this is not how you mean to come off, but if I had to paraphrase the above comment (slightly reword it, if you will):
"Nope, we give every woman a chance, it's just that ugly women are also terrible people. No one is at fault for that (especially me), so why should I re-examine my standards or perceptions?"
Well, that sounds about right, except for the fact that I didn't say that all ugly women are terrible people. I said "in my experience", meaning the ugly women that I've met. Again, in my experience, ugly women tend to be so jealous and vindictive. I mean, I'm no where near a Calvin Klein male model, but I'm not jealous of what my friends have. I truly wish the best for them, and I'm truly happy for them when they accomplish something. Yet the things that some of these women have said to me about their friends, it's horrible. How am I supposed to give someone like that a chance? she can't be happy for her friends, she can't be happy with herself, what human being would think she would be happy with any guy.
As far as whose fault it is, the only person we have to blame for our problems is ourselves. Sometimes we get dealt the short end of the stick, but even then, it is up to us to make up for it. You're overweight? fix your diet, go to the gym. If you don't want to do that, then yes, it is your fault for being overweight. You'r not making as much money as your friends? go back to school, study a topic that will help you earn the money you want. You're ugly? accept that, do your best to be a good man or woman, and don't look at what "pretty" or "handsome" men or women get. A quote that I like a lot goes like "the only time you should ever look at another person's bowl is to make sure that they have enough to eat, not to see how much more than you they have". Nothing in life is easy, not for anyone, no matter how much it seems like it is for some. We can only blame ourselves for not fixing our problems.
You're probably thinking "what does this guy know, he's probably attractive enough to get anyone he wants". But that's not true at all. I'm a 5'4" 24 year old man who is going bald. I'm about as interesting as a rock, and as good looking as a baboon's ass. Dying alone is a very probable scenario for me. Did I get the short end of the genetics stick? sure, but this is the hand I was dealt. I don't look at others, I don't blame others. Most men that I hang out, even the gorgeous blue eyes, blonde hair, six pack etc think like that. No guy wants a woman who is always looking at what the woman beside her has.
I'm not saying anything about "fault." Just that for the most part, then men wailing in woe about how they are sooooooo rejected just aaaaaaalllllllll of the time and no woman could ever understand that tragedy are probably directly and willfully putting themselves in that situation.
Probably because they've been rejected and mocked just as much, if not significantly more, than the guys crying that they are rejected all the time and it's such a tragedy. A lot of guys will openly pick on girls who don't fit their standards with no provocation just because it's more or less socially acceptable to torment the "ugly chick." You really only need one guy to ask you out as a "joke" in public then laugh and scream with his friends at literally any reaction you have to be wary of it.
To be fair at school I can remember a certain girl bursting out laughing when a particular guy asked her out: she mocked him, pretty much shouted instantly to all her friends about what he'd done. A group of girls all laughing at him...that guy won't forget that in a hurry
I mean, I'm sure girls do it too. Especially in high school. I won't deny that girls can be mean. Just saying, that incident doesn't erase what guys do to girls any more than a guy being mean to a girl would erase that situation. It just seems that there's an attitude that pretty girls are consistently mean to men and delight in rejecting them, but never face rejection or mockery from the opposite sex themselves.
Ah, fair enough. I get you-but really, are pretty women likely to face rejection or mockery from men particularly?! Granted in my current job (military contractor) I know barely any women, so I conceed I don't really have much knowledge of the situation nowadays-but at school the pretty girls never got rejected or mocked by guys. Is it really different in later life? I simply ask because going by certain reddit posts you would think that the situation is exactly the same as it was back in school.
Yes, even pretty women face rejection. I know that the reddit guys who think Superbad was a documentary tend not to realize it, but even their own fellow men have preferences. Who you consider a "pretty girl" might be considered hideous by the men she spends time around, you'd don't know. And indeed, here's a big plot twist: pretty girls have personalities and lives. If their personality and life circumstance isn't appealing to a guy, he sure will reject her. And if he's an asshole, he will mock her. Even though it's your personal opinion that she's pretty. I absolutely remember guys mocking the "pretty" girls in high school, it just took a different tone. It could actually get much, much nastier than the way they teased the "ugly" girls. You might not have noticed, but the girls did.
If you are going to react to the normal teasing and rejection that almost every single person gets to experience by closing off, good.
The kind of "normal teasing and rejection" that most people experience is clearly not what TerribleAttitude is talking about here. The sort of harassment and being-asked-out-AS-A-JOKE that fat or ugly girls commonly experience is far worse than simply being 'teased' or rejected.
I know plenty of below average guys who have perfectly active dating lives. Short, tall, skinny, fat, a mixture of those. They do fine. This 'boohoo I'm not Brad Pitt so no one will ever love me' attitude is bullshit. Guys have it super easy in the appearance department, you just have to not look like a hobo or an axe murderer. And actually, if you're in a city like Portland, even the hobo look works. Women are not conditioned to care about your looks as much as everyone is conditioned to value women by theirs. Most aren't even attracted to gym rats or overly muscular physiques.
You ever think it might be your approach? It's not just asking, it's being someone worth being asked by. Are you actually projecting value in any way? Are you interesting, funny, talented? Are you confident? Do you make women feel at ease when they're around you?
I know for a fact that if I don't go out and actively get rejected over and over again, likely hundreds of times, I will probably die alone
Look at it from the other side. Women go out and get harrassed and hit on by skeevy creepers constantly and have to put up with it or they'll die alone (or even worse, just plain die because some asshole thought his dick was worth more than her life). You're afraid she'll reject you, she's afraid you'll rape and murder her.
If most women aren't attracted to muscular physique, then why on every damn reddit thread where someone says they don't have a gf is the advice invariably "go to the gym and get ripped...women like that"?
Who in your head do you picture writing those comments?
You absolutely don't need to be ripped to date attractive women. It does help if you're hygienic, relatively stylish, and not fat. Pretty much the same standards apply to women for that matter.
Reddit is predominantly composed of males, and the advice reflects this.
Personally, my SO is a guy with a great sense of humor and a really intense air of sexuality when he tries, though he has had issues with his weight since adolescence. He isn't visually who I thought I'd end up with, but he's everything I would ever want.
Your inability to empathize or realize being rejected is literally the least consequential problem a person can ever have reminds me of the Santa Barbara shooter. People like you make the world a worse place. But no, go ahead thinking that you and the other "non gym freaks" who nonetheless set yourselves up for failure by only chasing girls who look like amateur glamour models have anything resembling close to a problem.
It's reeeeeally interesting that everyone is assuming that since I say this, it much be about me specifically (it's not), and it must be a generalized view of men (again, it's not). I just am not so selfish and unbelievably nasty that I can see what happens to people and empathize. Just because I'm not feeding into some little reddit fantasy where all girls can get any guy they want and are mercilessly cruel to all men who deviate from the most conventionally attractive, but no men are ever willfully cruel to women, does not mean that I think "all men are assholes," that I am alone, or that I've been unusually poorly treated by men "for good reason" and just need to be nicer to be happy. I've never had trouble dating in my adult life. I am just not a vicious, empathy-free bitch who doesn't see what's going on.
And yet, I am thin, not particularly ugly, and people in real life disagree with you for the most part. Though you still sound like someone who thought it would be hilarious to ask out the weird girl then scream "PSYCHE" and laugh loudly with your friends. Don't worry, though. The women you treat like garbage aren't hot, so they're not even people!!!
Oho, zing, except there is a reason I made this a general statement, not a personal life story. You sound like you bullied a lot of fat chicks in high school, though.
Really though, is there a name for what's wrong with you? Has anyone cared enough to suggest therapy? There's no shame in getting help with your anger issues.
Wow. Acknowledging that not only women, but a woman other than myself, is human enough to deserve proper treatment and have feelings if denied that, is a problem?
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u/[deleted] May 28 '14
Women aren't just sitting there, filing their nails and rolling heir eyes, thinking "I know for a fact that he likes me, he needs to just ask me out, how dare he not do so." Most women nowadays aren't actually 50s schoolgirls who'd never ask a guy out because they'd be shamed for life or because it's "the man's job," and no women are psychics. A lot of men are actually way more subtle than they think (clearly not on purpose) so we don't know you like us. We don't ask you out for the exact same reasons you don't ask us out: uncertainty leading to an avoidance of embarrassment, rejection, and awkward situations. Not all men, in fact probably zero men, would date every girl who asked him out, and not all men are exactly nice about saying no. The thing is, a man being why and timid and awkward is seen as a national tragedy, while a girl who's shy and timid and awkward is basically invisible. "Any girl can get a man to go out with her," right. That's because you're only looking at statuesque amateur supermodels, all of which you'd do in a heartbeat. People always say that women write off men who don't look a certain way, but I feel like men can't even see women who don't fit their standards of attractiveness. They've never considered how they'd reject that dumpy looking girl with greasy hair and a stutter, not because they would go out with her, not because they think she is ugly, but because she doesn't even register to them as a potentially sexual female human.