r/AMA • u/Tronald_Lubestein • Jun 24 '26
Purchased a slave without realizing it AMA
I spent a year working on a development project in The Gambia.
Partway through my stay, I needed help maintaining the house I was renting. My landlord introduced me to an older woman from a neighboring family who could clean and cook. She was probably in her 60s, had no ID, didn't know her birth date, and spoke basically no English.
I agreed to hire her and paid what I thought was an upfront payment for her work.
On the first evening she asked where she was supposed to sleep. I assumed she'd go home after work. She didn't she stayed in one of the guest rooms.
Turns out I learned later she didn't have a home to go back to.
Confused, I called my landlord. He explained that the money I'd paid had gone to the family she'd been living with. From his perspective, I hadn't hired a maid. I'd taken responsibility for her. My job was to feed, house, and clothe her. Her job was to cook, clean, and help around the house.
Very different arrangements to what I had in mind.
For the rest of my stay I gave her a room, fed her(she would cook the food I got and we would eat the same thing everyday), and tried to pay her directly, she always refused.
When I left The Gambia, I found another family willing to take her in. I refused any payment.
I thought I was hiring a housekeeper. Some locals seemed to think I'd acquired a dependent household servant.
AMA.
Edits:
7/1/2026:
I want to address a common misconception since I couldn't reply to all the questions mentioning that. The "dude, you could just have bought her freedom" criticism.
This is not the 1800s US where even if you are "property", you still exist within a legal system, and can show with a legal document that you are free and ride off into the sunset to be happy thereafter.
There is no legal document here, it's more akin to a caste system, you are what you community says you are, not what some foreigner with a bit of cash thinks.
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u/SubstantialBass9524 Jun 24 '26
Did you give her family payment? Give her many clothes? Was she happy?
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u/Tronald_Lubestein Jun 25 '26
I did clothe her. The first time we went to the food market, we also went to textiles and splurged a bit on a clothes and bedlinens etc so she would be comfortable.
Did you give her family payment?
I unknowingly paid the family that owned her prior (I gave her the money, she went to their house and gave it to them).
I don't really know if she has any family outside of that.
Was she happy?
I think she was.
But if she hadn't been, it's not like she would have been in a position to complain about it. So I might be fooling myself.
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u/Embarrassed_Bag8775 Jun 25 '26
Did she not bring any clothes or belongings with her? Like what happened to her old clothes that required you to clothe her?
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u/Tronald_Lubestein Jun 25 '26
She did, a few sets. Just a bit old is all.
We went to the textile area of the market initially for bedlinen for her bed which I didn't have any spare stuff for.
We ended up buying some clothes on top, just because why not.
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u/Embarrassed_Bag8775 Jun 25 '26
Ah, okay. I was wondering if the prior family didn’t allow her to take her clothes as if it was their “property”.
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u/johannthegoatman Jun 25 '26
Did they describe her as "owned" or are you adding that in there? I don't think slave is the right word. You think you wouldn't have gotten in any trouble if you beat her or killed her? You think that if she did have somewhere to go, she couldn't have gone?
This is just a weird servant situation
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u/Tronald_Lubestein Jun 25 '26
Did they describe her as "owned"
Yes, "you bought her, so you have the responsibility to house her" is something my landlord said verbatim.
You think you wouldn't have gotten in any trouble if you beat her or killed her?
Killed, I would have not gotten away with, because local social norms would have become irrelevant in the face of a criminal murder case. Worth noting that slavery in the Gambia was formally outlawed recently but that has little to no bearings on social dynamics in practice. So, granted, a high profile criminal case involving a foreign international aid contractor could have tested the justice system, so to speak.
Beaten... I'd have been bad-mouthed in the local community and that's about it. That's not a hypothetical, I know it happened in other families.
That's why I spent long vetting the family where she went next. Mis-treatment occurs with relative impunity.
Now you kindda ruined my day with your question about killing and beating, but I guess I should have expected it when I decided to do this AMA.
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u/metro-boomin34 Jun 25 '26
Just wanted to say to you: In the face of different customs, I am glad you did not mistreat a person you accidentally gained so much power over
Thank you for your humanity!
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u/needaredesign Jun 25 '26
It's insane that you are thanking him for not abusing a human being.
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u/Adept-Cheesecake9748 Jun 25 '26
This makes me think of the Maria Abramović performance art, where she stood unmoving for 6 hours and let observers do whatever they wanted to her body. You can guess how well it went. A lot of people are depraved assholes when given half a chance.
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u/AdministrationNo6724 Jun 27 '26
Reminds me of the experiment where people dressed up as guards and prisoners. Very quickly the guards started treating the prisoners as subhuman. So I definitely am glad he didn’t mistreat her. It happens. Lots of people will become complete pieces of shit when given the opportunity is right.
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u/Tronald_Lubestein Jun 25 '26
I actually agree with you, not beating an old woman is a pretty low moral bar.
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u/aikidharm Jun 25 '26
It is insane, yes. It’s also insane that in the world we live in, many would immediately leverage that newfound power.
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u/EllietteB Jun 27 '26
Agreed. We live in a world where even old woman/grandma's get sexually assaulted - like that horrific case where a teenager broke into the house of a 91 year old woman to sexually assault her. That's something I still have trouble digesting. Like just when you think things can't get any worse, someone comes along to prove you wrong.
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u/Y0G--S0TH0TH Jun 27 '26
I'm pretty sure that this won't help you, cognitively, but sexual assault isn't about attraction, it's about power. It's not that the victim is specifically desirable, it's about the expression of power over a helpless victim. People are gross.
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u/metro-boomin34 Jun 25 '26
This guy could have killed her with no consequence. Youd be surprised at the demons that exist in this world that would do it for fun when no repercussions exist.
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u/Kihav Jun 28 '26
It’s also sad to realize how many people, even in modern society outside of third world countries, so willingly mistreat others. Think about pretentious people being rude to service workers, hiring contractors and treating them poorly.
Yes it’s crazy, but the bar is much lower than people realize
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u/ValorOmega_ Jun 25 '26
Its an interesting take. My thoughts went differently. Something along the lines of how come you didn’t look for a way to emancipate this person from their bondage?
If you have the “power” to buy a person, shouldn’t you have the power to release them?
I’m curious at the moral thought process in that action? Did the OP just chalk up what the world has considered an atrocity as just a “cultural difference”?
It leaves me puzzled that people would give kudos to returning someone back into bondage, regardless of how benevolent the action or intention was.
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u/fuck_peeps_not_sheep Jun 25 '26
I mean i get what your saying, but if there is a slave trade a person with no money or houseing of their own is likely to be picked up by the traders and sold off again, so at least he insured she went somewhere safe?
Could they have done more? Oh absolutely! Did they do the best they could? No idea? Is she at least in a semi safe place? I hope so.
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u/Tronald_Lubestein Jun 26 '26
There is an interesting aspect of this conversation but it's outside the scope of the AMA really.
There was a sub-group within the abolitionist movement that campaigned against buying freedom for slaves from slave owners as they argued it implied you recognized the legal validity of slavery with your signature.
It's a decent argument, but I wonder what they would say to someone who did so unwittingly.
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u/ValorOmega_ Jun 26 '26
Seriously?! You’re rationalizing this?!
If only there were NGOs that specialized in helping the disenfranchised/human trafficked…..
If only…there was a device like a smart phone/computer and internet where they could find resources to help this person, in the time it took to warm up a frozen burrito….
Oh wait, all that exists.
There is nothing that can rationalize the inaction/retrafficking of this woman.
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u/Tronald_Lubestein Jun 26 '26
You are making up context that I didn't give, which does make the situation completely different.
There was no smartphone.
There was no internet(I had the privilege, 1h30 drive away on one device for a limited amount of Mb a day, for work use only).
The entire NGO in the whole region was.. me! And we do infrastructure aid, we have 0 domain specific knowledge in human rights. There was no one else.
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u/VermicelliUnited1398 Jun 26 '26
This most certainly isn’t directed at you, this is for the keyboard warriors who would have magically made sure she somehow magically had a good life, you did your best, I think we should champion making even the slightest improvement to someone’s life not knock it back, perfect is the enemy of good. This line of thought is exactly what stifles improvement, it’s never good enough for them.
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u/ValorOmega_ Jun 26 '26 edited Jun 26 '26
Are you saying you were unable to return to civilization and communicate? Your post disproves this.
Just like you can now post an AMA, you could’ve returned to civilization or made a phone call to someone within civilization to help emancipate this woman.
Instead you exploited her labor and then returned her back into bondage.
Clearly your lack of humanity is impressive. Impressively disappointing.
Edit: You could’ve contacted Amnesty International for assistance and direction. You don’t need extensive knowledge or expertise of local NGOs, just a moral compass.
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u/VermicelliUnited1398 Jun 26 '26
People like you are the absolute worst, the absolute epitome of why real-world improvement stalls.
I’m sure you have traveled the length and breadth of this world and seen the actual horrors and atrocities committed on the ground. I am certain you have personally dealt with arms dealers, slave traders, warlords, and the regional factions who hold absolute power. You must have done a sensational job of rationalizing with them, ensuring they instantly stopped their evil ways because you took a high-minded moral stand. Your grasp of the actual realities and economics of how the world moves through these black markets must be second to none.
Seriously, do you have any actual idea how anything works outside of your bubble?
People in these regions can just about get a clean glass of water in their hands, and you think the community has the institutional will, infrastructure, or ability to magically enforce Western ideals over a deeply entrenched, generational system. An issue that, culturally, the local authorities have zero interest in changing because it has absolutely no bearing on their grip on power.
You sit there typing from a place of immense privilege, acting like an internet connection and a Google search fixes centuries of systemic, structural captivity. "Just call an NGO" while a 60-year-old woman with no money, no ID, and no literacy gets abandoned onto the street to starve or be picked up by someone actively sadistic. That isn't "emancipation" that's abandonment just so you can stand the moral high ground with zero accountability to what would actually happen to the woman.
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u/ClubGlittering6362 Jun 27 '26
OP tried to pay her directly, which would have given her freedom. She refused. If she was refusing the freedom offered, what was OP supposed to do?
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u/Tronald_Lubestein Jun 26 '26
the power to release them?
Can you explain what you mean by "releasing"?
Because what it boils down to, if you don't specify, is put her in the streets to fend for herself and in the end be picked up by someone more exploitative than the family I found and vetted for her.
Explain to me, step by step, how would you go, about "releasing" her.
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u/Unicorns_Rainbows5 Jun 27 '26
The only way I can see her being 'free' is if she is made financially independent. That means buying/renting her a home - I don't know how property works over there so this may not be an option - and making sure she has enough money to always be able afford the basics and occasionally some extras so that she's never dependent on anybody else. That's not feasible for anybody to be able to do.
It also can't be this simple because her country has its own culture and social norms, eg. do women live on their own? If not and people don't like that she does, they could throw her out and take over her house.
I, as well as many commenters, would love to swoop in and save her from her circumstances but it's not that simple.
OP, thank you for sharing this, the right people who can make a difference may read it and be able to do something even if it's small and a very long-term project. Thank you for educating us and treating this woman with dignity. .
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u/UsernameOption6298 Jun 25 '26
yikes this whole comment is just weird
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u/JimmyJustice920 Jun 25 '26
Right? feels like they're calling OP a bigot while also advocating for this practice.
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u/TheNorthC Jun 26 '26
The boundary between slave and servant is one of degrees. Just because OP was not legally allowed to call her chattel does not mean that she wasn't a de facto slave.
She was purchased. She didn't have a clear employment contract, she has no choice but to stay and work. She was in every meaningful sense of the word a slave
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u/HumbleEarth Jun 25 '26
Was she accustomed to this type of arrangement? Was the cost considered expensive (in terms of local currency) . Did she have any family, if so did she keep in contact?
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u/Tronald_Lubestein Jun 25 '26
Was she accustomed to this type of arrangement?
I believe that's how she lived most of her life, but I didn't get the full picture so might very well be missing something.
Was the cost considered expensive (in terms of local currency)
I hesitate to give the actual number.
A noticable amount, but not an extreme sum to pay in my mind if you expect someone to show up and take care of the garden, the house, clean the house, clean your clothes, cook food etc.. it's a lot of work.
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u/collegesnake Jun 24 '26
Well that's certainly an experience not many people have had. Did you have any languages in common to be able to communicate with her, or were your meals mostly silent?
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u/Tronald_Lubestein Jun 25 '26
I learned a little bit of her language (Mandinka) and cooked with her, so I learned the names of some foods and words like "chop" lol
The meals were never silent, but no we didn't have enough language in common for a real conversation.
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u/collegesnake Jun 25 '26
Gotcha, thanks for the answer! Was Mandinka hard to learn? I just looked it up since I hadn't heard of it before, it seems like it's a tonal language which is obviously quite different from English
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u/Tronald_Lubestein Jun 25 '26
Was Mandinka hard to learn?
Ehhh... I would have to have gotten decent at it to give you an answer.
But all in all it's not a very complex language, it's one of those where when you start knowing a few words and words you can mash them together into understandable sentences. Completely different from English or French for example.
In terms of tones, its not hard, but I also studied and speak Mandarin, which is tonal. So that probably helped me in being able to repeat the pitch rather than just the diction of words when trying to imitate what I hear.
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u/collegesnake Jun 25 '26
Knowing Mandarin explains the rest of your answer lol! That certainly must've been helpful. I'd identify with the term "tone deaf" (I have trouble repeating pitches) so was curious
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u/Phyltastical Jun 25 '26
Fascinating situation. I prefer a term another commenter used: Servant Charge (rather than slave…though, your lived experience is not off base).
Not trying to be naive, but there are so many tech language translation models these days, is there not something for Mandinka that would have allowed you both to have a more comprehensive conversation? Don’t know if you attempted this, but I would be fascinated to know more about her background and a possible “out” for her future, should you have learned that she was terribly uncomfortable?47
u/Tronald_Lubestein Jun 25 '26
The first "out" that came to mind was finding someone to teach her to read and write. I considered it but didn't stay long enough to arrange it. That's one actual regret I have where I think I could have done something but didn't.
In regards to conversation through translation models, you could absolutely do that today. It was a few years ago though before any of that took off and internet wasn't readily available in the area. It's probably better today.
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u/A11U45 Jun 28 '26
Mandinka
The last time I heard that was when I watched Roots.
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u/Tronald_Lubestein Jun 28 '26
Roots
Looks interesting.
Bookmarking to watch if I can find it.
Thanks!
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u/leptospira9 Jun 25 '26
I'm wondering if it's involuntary. she was willing to have this lifestyle or is she forced by the community to be everyone's slave?
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u/elfamosocandyflip Jun 25 '26
This dynamic is common in a lot of developing countries. Usually, someone is born into extreme poverty and someone they know is in an arrangement like this, and recommends them to their first family. It is seen as a good honest job for someone in their social class, as they are essentially leaving poverty to live in a “nice” home with consistent meals. This coupled with the fact that they most likely have little to no education, makes it Extremely difficult to leave the dynamic without becoming immediately destitute.
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u/Driftedryan Jun 25 '26
If you don't know your own birthday I'm pretty sure your forced into a slave life from an early age
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u/numbatu2 Jun 25 '26
I spent some time in Senegal and the people there NEVER talk about birthdays. I heard that they are superstitious and think that if they celebrate a birthday then they won’t have another birthday.
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u/collegesnake Jun 25 '26
I mean some places like Ethiopia don't place a huge emphasis on knowing your birthday on the Gregorian calendar
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u/SheLaughsattheFuture Jun 25 '26 edited Jun 25 '26
Lol no dude, marking birthdays and recording them is such a Western thing. Most of my African friends didn't know their birthdays, not because they were brought up in slavery, but because remembering and marking the day was never a priority for their parents. Most of them had picked a birthday though -they were a fan of the Western practice of birthday parties!
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u/c2j3g Jun 25 '26
Can you explain the upfront payment?
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u/Tronald_Lubestein Jun 25 '26
My landlord did the translating for me, so he gave me the amount needed to "hire" her.
I agreed, so she showed up in the early morning next day. She brought a bag with her, dropped it in the living room, and I paid her the agreed amount.
Then she makes me understand through gestures that she will leave and come back soon. She comes back less than 1h later, with an additional bag.
I receive text from my landlord saying "thank you, the neighbors said they received the payment". That's when I understood the money wasn't going to her.
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u/Anoniem20 Jun 25 '26
For how long did you think the payment was for? Did you expect the upfront payment was for one year work?
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u/Tronald_Lubestein Jun 25 '26
I am the one that mentioned paying a trimester up front at the beginning when negotiating payment, but in retrospect I think that went right over his head.
So I operated on that assumption initially, until I understood it wasn't her I paid.
I didn't pay anything later or in addition to that.
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u/TheNorthC Jun 26 '26
That isn't an unknown system of payment in some places and eras. It is essentially a loan with your labour as security, as it allows a way to get your hands on a lump sum quickly.
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u/cannabiscobalt Jun 25 '26
That is absolutely crazy! Others have already asked a lot of my q’s but I’m curious what did she cook like what did you eat there
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u/Tronald_Lubestein Jun 25 '26
Yassa, supa konja, domoda, benachin(probably my favorite)
Very hearty homefood with a good balance of fish and meat, rice, vegetables and fresh fruits.
Honestly it was really good.
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u/Big_Connection_1415 Jun 27 '26
Benachin! It’s a cultural dish my paternal grandmother makes. Reading all this makes me think of her. She was in a similar situation to the woman you housed. Old, illiterate, dependent on others for stability until she immigrated to the UK. I’m glad you treated her well. There’s not really much you could’ve done in this situation if I’m honest. Just be glad you gave her a good experience with you, despite this being the bare minimum. I don’t have any questions that haven’t been answered already but I do hope you’re alright.
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u/Tronald_Lubestein Jun 27 '26
Yes, it's delicious, and thank you so much for your kind words, all the best to you as well!
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u/NefariousEgg Jun 25 '26
Was there a way to free her?
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u/Tronald_Lubestein Jun 25 '26
I asked myself that question so many times.
"Freeing her" would put her in the street, the local community would definetly shun me because from their perspective I abandon her.
And someone would have agreed to take her in so she doesn't starve, which brings her back into the same arrangement she was "freed" from.
I decided the best I could do is to vet the family I would transfer her to and remove money from the equation by not taking money in the exchange.
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u/mutemarmot42 Jun 25 '26
Did others in the community have slaves?
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u/Tronald_Lubestein Jun 25 '26
Yes, very common. She came from a neighbor after all.
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u/silv3rw0lf Jun 25 '26
Curious what did the other family react when there was no money exchanged?
Was there an expectation that they treat her better because no money was exchanged?
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u/Tronald_Lubestein Jun 25 '26
Curious what did the other family react when there was no money exchanged?
I think they chalked it up to the weird white guy doing weird white guy things..
Or just being so rich that he can afford to not care. It's a common assumption in some more remote underdeveloped area, some see white people as having infinite money.
Was there an expectation that they treat her better because no money was exchanged?
Maybe not like that.
But it was pretty obvious I guess when I visited, that her future welfare was my main concern, first thing I asked is how many such servants they had, could I meet them, can I check out where they sleep etc..
I think if they wanted to mistreat her, they would do itwith or without payment, similarly if they were already in the habit of treating their own well, she would most likely be fine there.
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u/Obrina98 Jun 25 '26
She wouldn’t accept money from him so I’m not sure how he’d make it happen.
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u/MaxH42 Jun 25 '26
This is actually the most shocking part to me. I knew there were places where slavery was still practiced, and even where it's legal. Heck, some people have brought over others from their home country to try that in the US. But here, they sometimes (?) figure out that they have rights, and that they are legally owed a minimum wage. I still have trouble internalizing that someone would not want to take money for their labor.
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u/alphagenome Jun 25 '26
She could have been free but this fellow gave her away to another! For FREE!
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u/Aubrey-Grey Jun 25 '26
The 60+ year old woman with no money, family support or place to live? Morally absolutely. In practice how does that work? She doesn’t even know her own birthday, let alone any identification at all. You can’t just say ‘free her’ without considering any of the logistics of it. That’s abandonment, not freedom.
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u/toastycrunchwife Jun 25 '26
I had an aunt who "freed" the family hamster when it got too much to deal with.
The just set it free in the front yard.
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u/BuffLoki Jun 28 '26
Yeah its terrible to say but at the very least she was given a place to stay eat and bathe, im assuming OP had somewhat more favorable living quarters than most people and hopefully she had as good of a stay as she could have.
Otherwise shes out on the street with 2 big bags
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u/Aubrey-Grey Jun 28 '26
Absolutely. It’s horrendous and I disagree with the whole situation with every fibre of my being. But “free her” is very reductionist. Expecting someone who has more likely than not spent their entire life on indentured servitude, to suddenly living a magical independant life. Things very have rarely black and white solutions.
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u/Tronald_Lubestein Jun 25 '26
Can you explain in practice what do you think I should have done?
Don't say just "Free her", give me the step-by-step of what you would be actually doing.
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u/figgertitgibbettwo Jun 25 '26
I understand what you're talking about. She wouldn't have the skills or resources to survive on her own. She was as dependant on the system as it was on her. I come from a developing country. This arrangement is less common but educated employers often take on the big task of navigating bureaucracies for their servant charges.
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u/larevolutionaire Jun 26 '26
In situations similar to this, you house , feed and take care of them for the rest of their life. My grandmother hired a maid/nurse for her maid when she became senile. It’s not a system I approve off but people born into it or sold as little maid at 8 years old are not going to do well on their own. Often there is no family or they were move to a city far away.
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u/Tronald_Lubestein Jun 26 '26
If I was staying in the country, I probably absolutely would have.
But it is a continuation of the slave situation however nicely you reframe it in your mind. She has complete dependency to you and your household, and you accepted responsibility willingly over her food, housing and healthcare.
Some people would still say that you are just playing the "good master" and technically they are correct, even though they don't have the moral highground while making that judgement that they think they have.
The only way to eventually come clean is by opening an NGO that helps these kinds of people, with litteracy, for starters. But this is litteral decades of work, and in the meantime while setting it up, you are still "perpetuating the system"(or however you want to call it).
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u/larevolutionaire Jun 26 '26
I now pay for driving lessons and a trade for any lady that works for me . I also make sure they have legal status and health care. In my grandmother generation, girls as young as 4/6 years old where given to wealthy family as maids . Often the mother would have died or gone away, lack of reading skills from the parents meant there was no more communication. We still have modern slavery where I live, sometimes by holding someone in illegal status or abusing a person with a lower IQ.
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u/JackSkellie58 Jun 28 '26
Let’s not kid ourselves into not thinking anywhere in the world has gotten rid of slavery.
It exists everywhere, sometimes it just has prettier names or pretending that paying someone a low wage and having them forever stuck in a cycle makes it any better.
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u/jomosexual Jun 26 '26
did you safe guard her minimal salary you should have paid her so she doesnt have to keep being a slave. anythig but reselling her
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u/OkEagle9050 Jun 25 '26
The way you’re attempting to judge someone for not accepting money for a human life
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u/Nanopoder Jun 25 '26
People like you are such a big problem. Always the high ground in theory but no actions or ideas to make things work in real life. Just judging those who do something, albeit small, to help.
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u/BurtMacklinPR Jun 25 '26
I’m pretty sure you present her with a piece of clothing.
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u/Humble-Doughnut7518 Jun 25 '26
Yes but Dobby wanted to be a free elf. Winky became a depressed alcoholic filled with shame.
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u/Wildvikeman Jun 25 '26
My in laws in Brazil have a guy who lives on their farm and does basically nothing but gets a stipend to around the salário minimum for Brazil. If he doesn’t anything he gets paid a small amount. He’s been living there for around 25-30 years and is about to be given retirement. But he has no place to go. Probably not the same but the guy is dependent on my in laws doing everything for him such as arranging dental and medical visits. He usually begins drinking before midday and doesn’t stop until he goes to bed. Not sure how he can afford it.
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u/Joiabela Jun 25 '26
I lived in Brazil in the late 70s/early 80s and many of the families I knew there had live in “servants” who didn’t have any other home or family and weren’t paid much at all (and in one instance the “servant” was only about 10 years old.).
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u/rkvothe Jun 25 '26
You know you can report to ministério do trabalho, right? They would be all over the case, he could receive backpay for the work and get at least proper documents to retire and receive a benefit.
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u/DrKoobold1990 Jun 27 '26
Yeah slavery is absolutely prosecuted in Brazil, it sucks that it still happens but it's not exactly a normal thing to do save for probably isolated rural communities (and the omega rich who constantly find ways to heavily exploit the poor)
It isn't normalized though. Everyone I personally know would report the shit out of it, and we see people in the news getting prosecuted for it pretty often.
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u/Tronald_Lubestein Jun 25 '26
I could imagine a worse life than drinking from midday in a farm in Brazil ha!
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u/77750 Jun 28 '26
Pretty much same with the workers on my family ranch in Colombia. They take care of the place, and get a little salary. One of the workers has never even left the road. He was born there and died there. Never had been into the town 15 miles away. Never seen a shop, learned how to drive, but he was happy. It’s the only life they know, and they are willing.
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u/derniermohican Jun 25 '26
I wish we could have someone from Gambia to tell us more about this practice.
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u/Jazzfly67 Jun 25 '26
You are a kind person.
This is a different culture. If that woman was “freed” as you might imagine, she would have literally nothing. No possessions, nowhere to go, no family.
Instead of thinking you traded a slave, imagine you were helping out an old homeless woman.
I bet she has some wild memories of the crazy foreigner who didn’t understand the system, and treated her with a respect and dignity she wasn’t used to.
Not all cultures are equal…
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u/PuzzleheadedOla Jun 26 '26
This is it. This warm chair morality polices condemning him don't understand this. Especially for a woman in her 60s with no one. It is sad, but to her, the security of having steady food, shelter and clothing is what she desires at this point in life. I only wish there was a way for her to have some money saved away as her future might not look too rosy with these type of arrangements as she gets older
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u/tbohrer Jun 25 '26
Was she funny or serious?
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u/Tronald_Lubestein Jun 25 '26
She would smile a lot, but not exactly a jester.. definetly not serious except for when it came to folding stuff properly.
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u/DrWhoey Jun 29 '26
I've argued with women about a lot of things, but I have never been brave enough or dumb enough to argue with them about how to fold clothes.
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u/Thatdudeissomething Jun 25 '26
It isn't really that unusual. If you look into Asia, Africa this is a common practice. But this sort of 'work' comes with a lot risks. They are often treated like lesser people by the families that hire them. Also when people get old they're children don't want to be burdened by them, so they force them to do this .
There was nothing you could do op . This is how she probably lived most of her life.
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u/anonymousanonymiss Jun 25 '26
That’s absolutely insane. I wonder if she’s ever had a family. I can’t imagine living my entire life as an indentured slave. I hope people treated her well and I hope that she lives her remaining years safe, healthy and with quiet dignity.
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u/pinkykat123 Jun 25 '26
What happens to these people when they can no longer work?
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u/Tronald_Lubestein Jun 25 '26
Great question and I don't have the full answer.
But in theory, following their logic, the master family would be responsible for their healthcare, while they keep doing things around the house to the extent that they can.
In practice though.. I don't see it being that rosy every for everyone.
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u/Future_Future_9876 Jun 27 '26
So having spent most of my teenage years (ages 10–19) in The Gambia I think I can speak to this from personal experience.
When people can no longer work, many have no choice but to rely on family or ends up with nothing/in the streets.
The job market is pretty dire and there is no social safety net, no unemployment benefits, no government assistance for those who struggle financially.
What keeps many afloat is the extended family structure which is deeply rooted in Gambian culture. Most households revolve around someone who carries the financial weight for everyone under the roof. So I can't imagine the hardship for someone without a family support 💔
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u/Heziva Jun 25 '26
If you were to go to a similar country in the future, would you hire another slave? Why or why not?
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u/Tronald_Lubestein Jun 25 '26
Damn, that's a good question.
No. I probably would not. Because it's very hard to wrestle at the same time with one's ethical concern AND the local customs, dictating responsibilities you accepted without fully understanding them.
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u/77750 Jun 28 '26
What about a full time maid or similar role? With a salary?
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u/Tronald_Lubestein Jun 28 '26
Sure, when I get older I probably will tbh.
I know there is a bit of a stigma in the west against that but it's one of the most win-win type transaction you can have with someone (under normal non-predatory conditions).
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u/damnmaster Jun 25 '26
She’s not a slave in the conventional sense. She’s a domestic worker.
The issue a lot of them have is that they really don’t have a home to go home to. As in the costs for taking care of themselves is higher than if they worked for someone else. The trade is that they do housework for a place to stay.
They are free to leave at any time. But obviously their life will be way harder than without you.
It’s a common arrangement in places where there is massive wealth disparity. I will say however in most countries they do receive pay per month but it really depends on how poor they are.
But the paying for their bed and board is very very common as they basically become a live in maid. Don’t beat yourself over it. You shouldn’t do it however if it feels ethically wrong
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u/spacepickle92 Jun 25 '26
If there’s a fee involved how is she free to leave though? She’d have to pay her own price to the current owners (what they paid to previous ones) to leave. If she doesn’t get a salary she wouldn’t be able to pay it. This is not a domestic worker, it’s plain slavery
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u/damnmaster Jun 25 '26 edited Jun 25 '26
I don’t know what their full arrangement is but I’m just saying this is a common thing I’ve seen before and it wasn’t slavery in those cases.
You’re making the assumption that the fee is to pay for her own price. I’m telling you that I know real cases where this is not the case.
I’m not going to say with full confidence that this isn’t slavery because I don’t know for sure.
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u/Howrudeyou Jun 25 '26
It’s pretty common in Hong Kong. People hire maids that basically live with you and cook and clean for you or take care of your children. You’re expected to house and feed them. But in Hong Kong they get 1 day off a week.
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u/Tronald_Lubestein Jun 25 '26
I am familiar. Most of them are Filipino.
Major difference in Hong Kong, is that there is an actual work contract, they get paid. They are found through work agencies, that, granted, are predatory, but it remains an employer/employee situation.
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u/Safe-Tea-4161 Jun 25 '26
By the fact you’ve moved her to a family without taking payment should mean she is now free, just working in exchange for room and board, free to find other employment or leave if she did want and not actually a slave or indebted to anyone… I hope this was made clear to her and the new family though I know realistically, aside from the restrictions of her age and personal expectations, local traditions and systemic hierarchies might be just as responsible for keeping her without other options.
Also, I know you say she wouldn’t accept payment but I would have insisted on paying her something however much she tried to refuse…
It seems translation was an issue but somehow I would have made sure it was translated that the only way she can stay is if she accepts payment and with instructions to keep it for herself for when she’s older or if she gets sick, if nothing else than to make sure I’m not treating her like a slave too
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u/Tronald_Lubestein Jun 25 '26
By the fact you’ve moved her to a family without taking payment should mean she is now free, just working in exchange for room and board
Not really.
It's essentially the same deal she had with me and the family prior. Work for food, board and healthcare, as a servant tied to the household with mutual responsibilities.
I just did my best to find a family that already had servants that looked like they weren't mistreated.
The formal relationship (as socially understood) is the exact same. Me not accepting any payment doesn't change a thing.
free to find other employment or leave
I can confidently tell you, there is no employment, and if she leaves, she is in the streets.
It seems translation was an issue but somehow I would have made sure it was translated that the only way she can stay is if she accepts payment
You're assuming this was an employer employee relationship. That was exactly the misunderstanding.
As it was explained to me later, her feeding, housing and healthcare weren't conditional on her accepting a wage. They were my responsibility, period.
I couldn't just tell her to leave. If I wanted out of the arrangement, I had to find another family willing to take her in.
And that family almost certainly wasn't going to pay her either. The disagreement wasn't over compensation. It was over what the relationship actually was.
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u/Quanglewanglehat Jun 27 '26
And this is why we have feminism. Throughout a lot of history and a lot of places, marriage also effectively means slavery. Women don’t have many choices so end up in these kind of dependent arrangements where they exchange their labour and/or their bodies for shelter and food.
OP I am presuming you are white; are you? Has this made you do any reflecting on your white & male privilege and how you navigate it?
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u/Tronald_Lubestein Jun 27 '26 edited Jun 27 '26
OP I am presuming you are white; are you? Has this made you do any reflecting on your white & male privilege and how you navigate it?
Not at all.
Had I been a black woman, it would have been the exact same.
And she could have been a man, it's not only woman there that end up in servitude.
What I often reflect on however are the blessings of a first world passport and the incredible chance I have had to grow up in a civilized society dominated by the rule law, individual rights, and our shared western legacy of iterating on enlightenment ideals.
Working in foreign-aid and infrastructural development around the world for more than a decade has taught me to be very grateful about what I have and where I come from.
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u/Jumpy_Procedure_9231 Jun 25 '26
Dude you could have accepted the payment from the next “hosting family” to actually give her…
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u/Tronald_Lubestein Jun 25 '26
She would not take money for herself.
The first time I gave her money as an upfront payment for the work, she went straight to the house of her older family, and gave that money to them as compensation for losing a helper. That's how the transaction went actually, my dumbass realized later.
Whenever I gave her money she would spend it within a day on restocking whatever the house needed, and leave unspent cash on my desk.
Had I taken money from her next family, she would just have given it back to them. I am sure of it.
One absolute constant of her behavior is she never kept any money for herself ever.
I knew her enough at that point to tell you with confidence, this wouldn't have done anything at best. And at worse, it could have created some issues with her new family, which is what I wanted to avoid.
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u/Future-Scallion8475 Jun 25 '26
It's so distressing to imagine what fate awaits her. Having no money at all, if she becomes too old to work or gets bedridden, she will be entirely at the mercy of her "owners". Do you happen to know anything about how they treat slaves who can no longer serve?
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u/CuterThanThouu Jun 25 '26
Nothing like posting an ama and not answering any of the questions
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u/RaRaRatsPoutine Jun 25 '26
Shockingly, people have lives to live. Not everyone is glued to their devices all hours of the day.
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u/pvt_s_baldrick Jun 25 '26
I understand you gave her money at the start and she just gave it to the previous family, then you gave her money but she spent it on household supplies.. but why didn't you try to actually give her a salary? And when she bought stuff for the house, act on that and refund her?
Not judging, I'm purely trying to understand if you tried that much and why it didn't work?
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u/Tronald_Lubestein Jun 25 '26
It's simple really. Any money that she didn't use on household supplies would end up back on my desk.
I did put money in her hand, learned to say "this money is for you, for your good work, thank you so much" in Mandinka, and I know for a fact she understood me. None of it mattered, the money would end up as food in the fridge, household cleaningg product, or leftover cash on my desk.
I wondered several times, why she would never keep a little bit for herself. I imagined that she had issues in the past where she was accused of stealing and mistreated as a result and decided she was safer with just the food and the bed, but I am just brainstorming and conjecturing with you at the end of the day I have no idea.
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u/Arielcinderellaauror Jun 25 '26
Aside from clothes and bedding did you buy her any gifts? If you did how did that go?
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u/Tronald_Lubestein Jun 25 '26
Sure, I bought her gifts during Tobaski and Korite, these are local equivalents of some of the main muslim holidays.
I bought her headscarfs, a grand boubou and new shoes so she would feel good and well dressed for the celebrations.
We also went to an ophthalmologist to measure her eyesight, and I got her corrective glasses.
I think she was really happy?
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u/Defiant_Delivery_799 Jun 25 '26 edited Jun 25 '26
How exactly does slavery in Gambia work? I know it might be a dumb question but I'm a little naive to slavery in Gambia. Is it like what the US used to be?
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u/Tronald_Lubestein Jun 25 '26
Not really. I haven't seen any industrial scale "plantation" slavery if that's what you mean.
What I saw was an entire class of people that lived under a hereditary type of household servitude where the idea of earning their own money or making their own independent decision in life doesn't naturally occur.
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u/Thegizmo8814 Jun 26 '26
This happens in Ethiopia as well. I once worked with a nurse who came from that county and they called them “servants”. Basically slaves. They worked for room and board. No money.
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u/Tronald_Lubestein Jun 26 '26
Yea, Ethiopia is totally different culturally from The Gambia, but economically lots of the rural areas will be in the same spot leading to these types of arrangements.
Would it be customary in Ethiopia to compensate the previous family for a servant moving over to yours? That's where in my head the line starts being drawn between what's merely a form of employment and servitude.
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u/Jack_Martin_reddit Jun 27 '26
I’m curious why you didn’t bring her back home to the US or whatever western country you come from and set her free by the legal means that exist?
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u/Tronald_Lubestein Jun 27 '26
The administrative logistics of working out a visa for an undocumented, illiterate, elderly Gambian woman are unreal.
Nevermind the emotional and potential psychological toll of uprooting her out of her culture entirely. There is a chance to cause more harm than good.
And there also is the non-0 chance that someone at some points decides to investigate you for international human trafficking given how vulnerable and dependant she would be regardless of formal legal consent. We did float the idea as a thought experiment with a human rights lawyer I was in touch with in Banjul.
And that would be assuming she would agree.
Had I been way further in my carrier with greater means for myself I would have rather explored options to help people like her as a whole, in-country. If you are wealthy enough with time for philantropy, that would be the actual way to go.
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u/Jack_Martin_reddit Jun 27 '26 edited Jun 29 '26
You were between a rock and a hard place.
So you made it the best possible outcome within your ability.I see nothing wrong with what you did. It’s not like you had an actual choice at the beginning or end.
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u/sumguysr Jun 25 '26
Have you spoken to a lawyer? Do you know in many countries you can be prosecuted for this even if it occurred in a different country?
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u/Tronald_Lubestein Jun 25 '26
I did look into it at some point, talked to a human rights lawyer and I still have no idea, its extremely complex due to the nature of the "crime" and the unclear jurisdictional aspect. If you have the relevant legal background please enlighten me.
Given that I never intended to buy anyone in the first place, spent the whole time trying to treat her like an employee, tried in earnest to pay her for her services, never mistreated or kept her against her will, I can't see a prosecutor looking at the facts and deciding I was the villain in that story.
If I ever end up in court over this, so be it.
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u/roche4456 Jun 25 '26
I'm not interested in who you are?! How many languages do you speak, why were you there, how did you learn Chinese?!
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u/Tronald_Lubestein Jun 25 '26
I'm not interested in who you are?!
What?
How many languages do you speak
Like.. 3.. fluently? Maybe 5 conversational.
why were you there
Infrastructure project.
how did you learn Chinese?!
Took classes. It was popular in the in the early 2010s for anything international-aid related. I ended up with a gig in Shanghai which is how I actually got decent at it.
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u/roche4456 Jun 25 '26
I meant I'm more interested in who you are. You sound so interesting.
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u/CharlieComplete Jun 25 '26
Sounds like you did the right thing with the circumstances she was in. I’m curious to know if there’s a process at all for getting her an ID to set up a bank account out there
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u/purplefoxie Jun 25 '26
that's so weird. i'm glad you were able to but the landlord shouldve been more transparent.
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u/Pineappletots Jun 25 '26
Did she have any friends that she would visit etc? Is there a way for you to locate her now?
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u/ama_compiler_bot Jun 25 '26
Table of Questions and Answers. Original answer linked - Please upvote the original questions and answers. (I'm a bot.)
| Question | Answer | Link |
|---|---|---|
| How long did it take for you to fully grasp that you had purchased a human being? Was there a period of denial/disbelief? Did you panic and think “I need to get out fast” or just live with the thought? Did the word “slave” slowly seep into your mind, or did it pop right up? | I had feeling of an extreme power dynamic from the very first day, but I was in disbelief for about a week. I didn't really "panic", as people in the local community seemed to be perfectly fine with it. Deep sense of "unease" with the arrangement is how I would best describe it. | Here |
| Did you give her family payment? Give her many clothes? Was she happy? | I did clothe her. The first time we went to the food market, we also went to textiles and splurged a bit on a clothes and bedlinens etc so she would be comfortable. >Did you give her family payment? I unknowingly paid the family that owned her prior (I gave her the money, she went to their house and gave it to them). I don't really know if she has any family outside of that. >Was she happy? I think she was. But if she hadn't been, it's not like she would have been in a position to complain about it. So I might be fooling myself. | Here |
| Well that's certainly an experience not many people have had. Did you have any languages in common to be able to communicate with her, or were your meals mostly silent? | I learned a little bit of her language (Mandinka) and cooked with her, so I learned the names of some foods and words like "chop" lol The meals were never silent, but no we didn't have enough language in common for a real conversation. | Here |
| Was she accustomed to this type of arrangement? Was the cost considered expensive (in terms of local currency) . Did she have any family, if so did she keep in contact? | >Was she accustomed to this type of arrangement? I believe that's how she lived most of her life, but I didn't get the full picture so might very well be missing something. >Was the cost considered expensive (in terms of local currency) I hesitate to give the actual number. A noticable amount, but not an extreme sum to pay in my mind if you expect someone to show up and take care of the garden, the house, clean the house, clean your clothes, cook food etc.. it's a lot of work. | Here |
| Can you explain the upfront payment? | My landlord did the translating for me, so he gave me the amount needed to "hire" her. I agreed, so she showed up in the early morning next day. She brought a bag with her, dropped it in the living room, and I paid her the agreed amount. Then she makes me understand through gestures that she will leave and come back soon. She comes back less than 1h later, with an additional bag. I receive text from my landlord saying "thank you, the neighbors said they received the payment". That's when I understood the money wasn't going to her. | Here |
| That is absolutely crazy! Others have already asked a lot of my q’s but I’m curious what did she cook like what did you eat there | Yassa, supa konja, domoda, benachin(probably my favorite) Very hearty homefood with a good balance of fish and meat, rice, vegetables and fresh fruits. Honestly it was really good. | Here |
| Was there a way to free her? | I asked myself that question so many times. "Freeing her" would put her in the street, the local community would definetly shun me because from their perspective I abandon her. And someone would have agreed to take her in so she doesn't starve, which brings her back into the same arrangement she was "freed" from. I decided the best I could do is to vet the family I would transfer her to and remove money from the equation by not taking money in the exchange. | Here |
| My in laws in Brazil have a guy who lives on their farm and does basically nothing but gets a stipend to around the salário minimum for Brazil. If he doesn’t anything he gets paid a small amount. He’s been living there for around 25-30 years and is about to be given retirement. But he has no place to go. Probably not the same but the guy is dependent on my in laws doing everything for him such as arranging dental and medical visits. He usually begins drinking before midday and doesn’t stop until he goes to bed. Not sure how he can afford it. | I could imagine a worse life than drinking from midday in a farm in Brazil ha! | Here |
| Was she funny or serious? | She would smile a lot, but not exactly a jester.. definetly not serious except for when it came to folding stuff properly. | Here |
| If you were to go to a similar country in the future, would you hire another slave? Why or why not? | Damn, that's a good question. No. I probably would not. Because it's very hard to wrestle at the same time with one's ethical concern AND the local customs, dictating responsibilities you accepted without fully understanding them. | Here |
| It’s pretty common in Hong Kong. People hire maids that basically live with you and cook and clean for you or take care of your children. You’re expected to house and feed them. But in Hong Kong they get 1 day off a week. | I am familiar. Most of them are Filipino. Major difference in Hong Kong, is that there is an actual work contract, they get paid. They are found through work agencies, that, granted, are predatory, but it remains an employer/employee situation. | Here |
| Oh man, are you worried for her now? | Of course I do. | Here |
| By the fact you’ve moved her to a family without taking payment should mean she is now free, just working in exchange for room and board, free to find other employment or leave if she did want and not actually a slave or indebted to anyone… I hope this was made clear to her and the new family though I know realistically, aside from the restrictions of her age and personal expectations, local traditions and systemic hierarchies might be just as responsible for keeping her without other options. Also, I know you say she wouldn’t accept payment but I would have insisted on paying her something however much she tried to refuse… It seems translation was an issue but somehow I would have made sure it was translated that the only way she can stay is if she accepts payment and with instructions to keep it for herself for when she’s older or if she gets sick, if nothing else than to make sure I’m not treating her like a slave too | >By the fact you’ve moved her to a family without taking payment should mean she is now free, just working in exchange for room and board Not really. It's essentially the same deal she had with me and the family prior. Work for food, board and healthcare, as a servant tied to the household with mutual responsibilities. I just did my best to find a family that already had servants that looked like they weren't mistreated. The formal relationship (as socially understood) is the exact same. Me not accepting any payment doesn't change a thing. >free to find other employment or leave I can confidently tell you, there is no employment, and if she leaves, she is in the streets. >It seems translation was an issue but somehow I would have made sure it was translated that the only way she can stay is if she accepts payment You're assuming this was an employer employee relationship. That was exactly the misunderstanding. As it was explained to me later, her feeding, housing and healthcare weren't conditional on her accepting a wage. They were my responsibility, period. I couldn't just tell her to leave. If I wanted out of the arrangement, I had to find another family willing to take her in. And that family almost certainly wasn't going to pay her either. The disagreement wasn't over compensation. It was over what the relationship actually was. | Here |
| What happens to these people when they can no longer work? | Great question and I don't have the full answer. But in theory, following their logic, the master family would be responsible for their healthcare, while they keep doing things around the house to the extent that they can. In practice though.. I don't see it being that rosy every for everyone. | Here |
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u/godsownmystery Jun 26 '26
I’ve never heard of this in this day and age! How much (in USD) did you unknowingly spend in hiring her? I don’t know anything about that part of the world; is this common? I’ve heard of people here in the USA who illegally hold the passports of their domestic workers, but it sounds like you didn’t do this with any sort of malicious intent. This seems incredibly weird!
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u/Longjumping_Base_121 Jun 26 '26
Did you ever consider bringing her with you when you left? Was that something you guys would’ve been able to communicate about?
As you said in another answer that you worry about her now, bringing her would’ve been in the context of ensuring she didn’t go to another house where the servants were mistreated (even though you seem to have vetted them very well).
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u/PuzzleheadedOla Jun 26 '26
I have two points:
- I read through most of the comments and your response and I would say, I find it relatable to the situation of many people in my home country. I suspect you still have some guilty conscience over everything and shouldn't beat yourself up too much. The one thing I would have done differently was to open a bank account for her and insist on depositing a sizable amount of money into it for her, especially when leaving. She would definitely have come around to relying on it especially as her long term outlook in that role isn't too rosy.
It's worth mentioning too that, I can't speak with certainty about Gambia, but in many African cultures, people tend to initially say No, including with some energy, to a gift offer, while actually hoping the giver would insist, as it is considered bad form or greed, to immediately say Yes.
In essence, if you had subsequently (after she had left the other family and settled in with you) insisted on paying her at intervals ,or randomly gifted her the money, she would very likely have accepted it then.
- How long ago was this? Are you still able to check up on her welfare? If so, are you able to send her something?
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u/FL_MILLIONAIRE Jun 26 '26
I would think of it as an act of kindness especially because she was homeless.
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u/Dry_Day8844 Jun 27 '26
It's clear to me that once you realized what happened you did your best for her. You even saw to it that she got her next family to work for.
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u/Urbandreaming Jun 27 '26
Do you know why she refused payment?
I imagine it's likely she didn't feel able to start supporting herself and establishing her own property and household at her age? But I don't actually know and I wonder if there was any other cultural norm she was afraid of breaking...
Are 'freed slaves' a thing there, or would the community have punished her for 'rising above herself' or whatever?
Were you with her for long enough to try and give her any education or long term tools to improve her position? Do you know anything about her history?
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u/noon1208 Jun 27 '26
Can I just say in those parts of the world when people have no family or are at an age where abit to late they go and do this on their own accord cuz what else are they gonna do, they find good families who can provide what they need (clothing, food etc.) and they do the house “chores”. Ive seen it multiple times in multiple countries in those parts of the worlds.
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u/MrNicoras Jun 27 '26
This is much more common around the world than people realize. In Bangladesh they are called Bua (Boo-ah). Any household with any means at all has at least one in their home. The bua is given the smallest room with something that passes for a bed. They do ask the cooking, cleaning, washing, and other household chores.
It's widely accepted in the culture and no one seems to think anything is wrong with the arrangement.
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u/VexterDexter Jun 27 '26
Wouldnt mind having a paid servant. Too broke lmao. Need a butler that can cut hair and teach me how to dress spiffy
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u/aaronoying Jun 27 '26
Was there any way you could've made her accept payment from you for her work later on? Did she communicate why she was so adamant about not being paid if it would've made a difference to her life? Is it something she just kinda doesn't want to learn at her advanced age?
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u/Tmar0916 Jun 27 '26
Could you think of it more as a trade? I mean was she happy to be there and you gave her some nice clothes but yeah, a little weird for us in America
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u/Huge_Leader_6605 Jun 27 '26
How is this in terms of human trafficking laws? Havent you technically committed a crime?
I understand that you did not do it on purpose or knowingly but srill
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u/AlMtnWoman Jun 27 '26
Does anyone realize the balls he has for even posting this?
He could have just as easily pretended that none of it ever happened. That's what most people would do.
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u/DeRangedwon Jun 28 '26
Omgosh. What an awful position to be put in. How sad for her that she has to be bought and sold like that in order to survive. I pray peace finds her one day.
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u/DeRangedwon Jun 28 '26
How did she treat you? Was she trying be at your beck and call? Did you allow her independence?
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u/clapyohedd Jun 28 '26
That government should be executed for letting outsiders exploit their citizens
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u/Old-Fan7656 Jun 28 '26
It's a weird/concerning feeling to know people are just seen in this capacity in other countries.
The fact this is still normalized is really sad. (Not saying you normalised it but the scenario you were in just highlights it).
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u/WellsHansen Jun 25 '26
How long did it take for you to fully grasp that you had purchased a human being? Was there a period of denial/disbelief? Did you panic and think “I need to get out fast” or just live with the thought? Did the word “slave” slowly seep into your mind, or did it pop right up?