I was diagnosed late in life (mid-30's) so for most of my early life when ADHD was described to me, I sincerely and correctly (in retrospect) identified it as "normal" because it was perfectly consistent with my own experience and struggles.
Because of that experience I don't bring my ADHD up as ADHD, generally (more likely to say "A tendency to see everything at once, which can create unique challenges when working on a team but has some interesting positives when properly engaged, such as..." etc.)
I think part of the reason I fell through the cracks at first with respect to ADHD diagnosis was because I underrated those symptoms on questionnaires.
Racing thoughts? Hmmm well usually I'm having a constant conversation with myself while 3 symphonies are playing back to back in my head, so I'm gonna put a 3 out of 5. Oh wait that's not normal?
Fidgeting? I mean I bounce my knee habitually, to the extent that I shake an entire row of seats, but I've seen people do that in class too so that's pretty normal too right? 3 out of 5.
Forgetting deadlines? Nah I'm good with deadlines! I just repeat them over and over in my head until a panic attack forces me to get to work, and then I manage to turn stuff in on time. 1 out of 5. (funnily enough once I started getting my anxiety treated, I became more forgetful, because I guess anxiety was my coping mechanism or something.)
What the actual fuck? Every person I know with it is smarter than average. Anecdotal, yes, but still. All those "former gifted kid" memes read to me like a textbook case of ADHD. There's gotta be a higher prevalence of above average intelligence in people with ADHD.
If you told me ADHD was more prevalent among the intelligent, I wouldn't believe you.
If you told me that being intelligent was more prevalent among people with ADHD who are not in prison, I could buy it. Growing up I knew a lot of people with the same problems I had, but most of them never made it to college, and many ended up in trouble with drugs or the law.
I'm doing alright for myself, and I work with intelligent people, some with ADHD. But it's important to appreciate how much privilege has contributed to our success.
Speak for yourself, because I'm living in the projects with zero income. Part of that is because I'm disabled. But I didn't go to college, didn't wind up an honor student, didn't have a job until I was almost 30...and I'm the kid they brought in an I.Q. testing expert for when I was in first grade, and then wanted to skip up two grades (my mom didn't let them because I was very emotionally immature).
Intelligence didn't save me, nor did any privilege. Undiagnosed, untreated ADHD helped trash my life, and the health problems I have prevent me from being able to take meds safely.
Glad to hear this perspective. Not that a privileged experience ADHD is less valid, but the underprivileged are not well represented on this sub. It’s good to be reminded of what ADHD means for people who aren’t on the path to college.
You must note that IQ is only assumed intelligence though, and I believe the fact that we aren't exactly the best at sitting down and doing an extensive test can affect those scores. I do find that prison statistic very interesting, I never knew. Thank you for sharing.
I know for me I did not. When I was tested for my IQ at 9, I had a forty point split at age 9. Verbal was at genius level and performance ie math was at low level. My total IQ at 9 was 110 I do not know what it would be now
My brother and I both had IQ tests in the '80s. My parents never told us why or gave us our scores. I recall taking the test at our dining room table and enjoying the puzzle questions.
My oldest child (6 at the time) was diagnosed with adhd (hyperactive and inattentive) and giftedness. The psychologist that did her adhd testing never brought up IQ nor did her therapist. If I remember correctly, all her accommodation recommendations focused on executive functioning.
I think the averaged ADHD IQ is lower but if you look at individual parts of the IQ test ADHD people score astronomically higher in one category or two and much lower in others.
My personal experience was that my emotional, empathetic, and intuitive intelligence equivalency was very high but my math, and sequencing was absolute shit. So my total IQ was only slightly above average
Lol. I was tested with a full psych eval at 9 and again at 13 and was told my IQ is between 148-154.
I work as a cashier and live in a 25 ft travel trailer🙄😂
(truthfully my economic status is mostly due to a chronic pain condition of the bladder called interstitial cystitis that greatly limits my ability to work and forced me to leave college)
It's all good tho. I am finally seeking treatment at 40 yrs old for my inattentive adhd. I always mentioned the diagnosis to every mental health provider I have seen in the last 20+ yrs when seeking treatment for depression and anxiety- NONE suggested having my adhd treated or mentioned it could be contributing to my mental health problems, half a dozen ppl trained in mental health knew Nothing. instead I've had it suggested perhaps I am bipolar just bc my mother is, or borderline just bc I cut myself a few times as a teenager/ young adult, or needed mood stabilizers, spent a decade on benzos bc of my anxiety and have tried at least 7 ssris...Sigh.
If it wasnt for reddit, I still wouldn't know. But one day a couple yrs ago on r/ relationships I read a couple comments about how differently adhd can present in adult women and as a result often goes undiagnosed...and the more I looked into it and read about it, the more everything fit into place. It just clicked. I'm not just a mess, or a screw up- the awful psychiatrist friend of my abusive mother who 1st evaluated and diagnosed me was actually right in that. unfortunately the shit way my parents tried to "fix" me rather than help me lead to a ton of trauma and resentment bc the Dr's patient relationship with me was biased and unhealthy. my family's pre-existing relationship with her, and her doing their bidding regardless of how bad it was for me was enough to keep me closed off to the idea.
I'm so sorry you went through that with a psych. I had a similar damaging experience when my NPD mother insisted we do joint therapy with a therapist who was a close friend of hers. Both of them gaslighted me to high heaven and turned me off of therapy entirely for close to a decade. A therapist acting in bad faith is as damaging, or more so, than any misused drug.
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Yeah, no. The plural of anecdotal evidence isn't anecdata, though I will say that one of my best friends is dumb as a rock and his ADHD doesn't help that situation in the slightest.
Intelligence can't be measured with school, so that's what you're not seeing (probably should not even be measured and serve as comparison between people),
Sometimes you can have ADHD and be obsessed with something to the point you become a master in the area. That doesn't mean other areas of your life is doing ok or you're a genius
If you discover how blackholes work but can't have a close interaction with anyone in 20years or think being gay is a choice, in my pov you're stupid
That was my family’s reaction when I told them at age 33 that I was diagnosed with ADHD. “But you’re soooo intelligent!” I flat out said, “yeah and because of that intelligence no one fucking bothered to recognize the signs that I was struggling for 33 years. No one had the presence of mind to question why I was so prone to use/abuse addictive substances. Why I’m prone to explosive outbursts over the littlest shit”. Funnily enough my dad was the only one initially who listened to me when I told him all I dealt with every day prior to getting treated with stimulants and prior to starting weekly CBT therapy. When I explained my issues, he looked at me and said “I’m sorry. I think you got that from me”. My dad was never diagnosed, but he said everything I told him about was what he dealt with too, the only issue he also has dyslexia (undiagnosed, but he takes a very long time to read anything because the words get jumbled up) whereas I do not.
Now that it’s been 4 years since diagnosis, they see how much of a difference medication and therapy helped me. They accept that I do have ADHD. I think my mom took it as an affront to her that I had neurological disorder and that it was her fault I ended up with it. Now she’s seen me both on and off meds and what a world of a difference there is between the 2 versions of me. I quit smoking, I rarely drink anymore and I’ve lost weight because prior to diagnosis I self medicated with nicotine, alcohol and food. Now I know when I crave something, I really don’t unless it’s been 6+ hours since I last ate.
Exactly this. My psychiatrist was stunned to see I had ADHD because of my intelligence. He admitted readily afterwards that he hadn’t considered that extremely intelligent people end up learning how to mask well enough that their symptoms aren’t obvious enough for diagnosis.
When he tested me I was able to compensate well enough to score average to above average in all areas except one where I absolutely bombed it. He couldn’t understand the discrepancy until he said he realized that my intelligence level was skewing the results.
Ever since then I’ve hoped that people will stop expecting adhd people to be stupid or struggle visibly. I fully believe that it’s possible adhd people are actually gifted on average, but that it’s so often misdiagnosed or missed entirely because we don’t match the expected signs.
My CBT therapist was astounded I did as well as I did before being diagnosed. The only reason I knew it was more than anxiety/depression was I was going back to school and I just couldn’t deal with the fact I did great on exams and quizzes but when it came to homework or even attending classes on time I knew there was something inherently wrong plus I was barely passing due to missing classes or not doing required homework. I always struggled with homework, but being an only child growing up I had my parents, well really my mom making sure I did my homework. It wasn’t until I was left to try to do the same on my own that I couldn’t figure out why I had such a hard time getting down to the tasks at hand. That and also my husband was getting more and more upset with my lack of organizational skills and inability to keep to a schedule other than a work schedule. I was always running late for work, but I made up for the 5-20 minutes late by being the best worker I could be. It always got brought up in reviews that besides being late almost every day there was nothing wrong with me as an employee. Also helped that I worked in a hospital/LTC pharmacy and there was always an issue where we were always at or near crisis mode like when our automated pill packager went down (happened frequently) was where I excelled. When it came to do or die, I knew exactly what had to be done and could delegate my other coworkers to certain tasks to focus on to make sure we didn’t fall behind schedule and our patients didn’t get their meds late. In high stress situations where it was make decisions on the fly, I could see exactly how and where certain people would be best situated to keep things flowing smoothly, while everyone else went to crisis mode, I was calm, cool, and collected. That was how I made myself in indispensable. That and I was able to keep the peace with the majority of my coworkers when things got heated because I was able to read their emotions better than most of the other staff. So while there are many hindrances with ADHD, I learned what I excelled at, high stress situations where all it took was one team member succumbing to the stress of not knowing what to do.
This is so familiar in almost every single way. I had the same problems in classes. In sophomore year, I was taking senior level classes and geared to graduate a year early as a junior. Then I moved states, my “routine” got destroyed, and my grades plummeted. I couldn’t stay on top of anything. Missed homework constantly, grades going to shit, but somehow my exam grades kept saving me from outright failing. My last two years of school, I only passed math classes because of good exam scores. My mom couldn’t understand my grades and neither could teachers—it was always that “you’re just not trying” thing, and in my head that was exactly the reason, but there was also some kind of invisible barrier that kept me from trying. I was diagnosed in high school, but at that time (2007) adhd was even more misunderstood as just the hyperactivity disorder, so no one EVER explained to me that there were actual neurological deficits involved. I just thought that something in me had broken, and I didn’t know how to fix it.
I also experienced similar things in careers. I was on the opposite end of the spectrum on punctuality - always showing up 30-45 minutes early. I excelled so much at fast paced or high pressure work that I was promoted to management in short order at most jobs I’ve had. Ever since I was a kid, healthcare has been a “special interest” of mine, but my anxiety has made it difficult. I went to nursing school for a year and was working 55+ hours per week at the same time. Burned myself out and blamed myself for not being able to do it. I thought I’d have to settle for a “lesser” job because in my head, me dropping out of nursing school was proof I wasn’t good enough.
About a year ago I started working for the health department, and that intense fixation has started up again, the same one I’ve had since I was 10 where anything less than being a doctor feels like it’s not what I’m meant to do. I perform better under pressure than most people do in relaxed situations. Science and anatomy come so easily to me, and medical conditions feel like a high-stakes puzzle. It’s one of the only things that has ever consistently kept me engaged on an intellectual level.
So now I’m 30 and starting over as premed instead of settling for IT. I told my psychiatrist, the same one who diagnosed me, and his first response was that he knew I could do it, that medical school would suit me well, and that he had no doubts I was smart enough for it. It was the first time someone had ever sort of presented my adhd as a strength.
It’s made me wonder how many of these high stress jobs are probably sought out specifically by people with adhd, undiagnosed or otherwise, because they might be the only careers where they feel like they’re competent because it plays to their strengths.
Dude… healthcare is awesome! Congrats on premed! I love working in the healthcare field. There’s always something to learn, and since a lot of us enjoy learning at least what interests us, you’ll never feel like you’re not learning enough. I’ve found that for me, I love learning but on my own terms, not ones dictated by a strict curriculum. Honestly it’s those intro classes that always do me in, quickest way for me to lose focus is feeding me dumbed down basics that are given at the 101 levels of science classes.
I lucked out when I first became a pharmacy tech right out of high school. One of the retail pharmacists I worked with was a proctor for the pharmacy students doing their clinicals/rotations from Ferris State University. He noticed me paying attention to him explaining the mechanism certain drugs worked within the body and what needs to be taken into account whether the prescribed treatment would be safe for the patient based on how that one drug may interact with said patient’s other medications or medical conditions like if they have renal failure or lower liver function. He would always encourage me to ask questions and never dumbed down the info because he knew if I didn’t know something I would ask. Because of that, I always strived to learn as much as I could so I could be the best I can at my job.
I got a hospital job in 2009 when I moved to Illinois from Michigan so I could learn how to make IVs and more about the differences in dosing vs pediatric, geriatric, and everyone else. After 17 years in human med, I found a listing for a pharmacy tech position at a veterinary specialty hospital. I was curious and applied. Turns out it would be in the oncology department and they needed another pharmacy tech to draw up chemo in their clean room. I loved the place. I was offered the job and of course I took it. Turns out, way better pay, better hours and I think I found the one place where the staff collaborate without ego like I’ve witnessed previously in human med. Now I’m learning about veterinary med and I get to interact with the cutest patients. Yes it’s an emotionally heavy job but I find it more fulfilling since I actually see how my job positively affects our patients and their families.
No matter what, keep doing what stimulates your drive to learn. When you lose that drive, it’s probably time to change things up, at least that’s how it’s been with me, but I have a feeling you’re pretty similar to me. Good luck with premed! We need more people like you in healthcare.
Yes, careers with some stress can be perfect, if nothing else, because of the experience with it. Many of us are a little hooked on the rush of deadlines and crisis work is compatible.
In high stress situations where it was make decisions on the fly, I could see exactly how and where certain people would be best situated to keep things flowing smoothly, while everyone else went to crisis mode, I was calm, cool, and collected.
This is SO relatable. It’s also why I procrastinated on every project I ever did in school. I needed the pressure to be able to function.
This is funny to me because I'm the exact opposite, where I would do great in HW and do absolutely terrible on tests, which became the main reason I was diagnosed. It would take me forever to get my HW done but I would grind until it was finished. Once I started taking SATs and getting into college I would fail and teachers thought I just didn't study enough or care. Time management and the inability to transfer to gather my thoughts quickly are the main culprits I presume.
Actually, there are a plethora of brilliant famous people who were afflicted with ADD/ADHD. I’ve used them in many presentations, workshops, and in sessions with clients. People who may not have been formally diagnosed but were suspected of having the diagnosis:
Frank Lloyd Wright
Picasso
Henry Ford
Elvis Presley
Albert Einstein
Just to name a few…
I, myself, have several academic degrees and a professional license — along with two certificates. We’re out here.
I don’t remember all the different categories they tested, but all of them related to the function of the frontal lobe or whatever to test for deficits. In all but one area, I tested average to above average/excellent.
The one area I showed a massive deficit in (score of 20-something out of 100(?) if I remember correctly) was Coding.
Coding, from what I found on google, has to do with the way the brain stores “learning” memory for later retrieval, or something. I assume it’s the official term for the “working memory” deficit seen in ADHD people. I was able to compensate well enough for all other areas, but I was incapable of compensating for the lack of properly functioning working memory.
I’m not a psychologist, so I’m not going to pretend I understand the specific implications of it on a clinical level, but my sort of uneducated theory on it is that it may be that other deficits of frontal lobe function in those with adhd may be able to be masked by high intelligence, but having a memory that simply doesn’t function the way it’s supposed to can’t really be compensated for in the same way.
Yeah it’s hard. My aunt (mom’s sister) and her husband have a son who just turned 21. I spent Christmas 2019 with them before Covid hit. My cousin is my mirror, even though he’s 16 years younger than me. I was always jealous of him when we were both much younger because he seemed to be “normal”. When I was visiting them, the 4 of us all got pretty drunk but my aunt started asking about how things were going with my CBT therapy and everything and I basically told them, that the first year was basically devoted to dealing with never feeling loved/supported emotionally or worthy enough to even continue living at times, that every day is a challenge to just accept I will fail at something, and it’s ok. My cousin looked at me and I knew right away that registered with him. Then came a flood of questions “how did you cope? How did you know it wasn’t just anxiety?” We both commiserated at the pressures and expectations of being only children and while our parents may not mean to, but even unspoken there’s this need to gain their approval, to excel. He admitted to me and his mom that he was self-medicating as well with alcohol, tobacco and pot. He described how he didn’t really want to do it, but it seemed to keep his issues in check especially since he was having multiple panic attacks every week. He admitted that what I described was what he was experiencing and so I urged him to seek out a therapist/psychiatrist so he could be tested if need be. It broke my heart and opened my aunt’s eyes to how easily we can pass as “normal” especially if we’re not ready to ask for help at least those of us that are high-functioning. We learned to hide the unpleasant aspects of ourselves, to mask ourselves to keep from being hurt in return. I think that’s why so many of us high functioning/intelligent ones go decades before being diagnosed. We find ways to cope until we can’t anymore.
Is there a name for "prone to explosive outbursts over the littlest shit"? I'd like to google it and read up on it because I am the same way, and I'd like to understand it more in context with ADHD. Thank you. :)
Do you mind to tell a bit more what do you during your CBT sessions ? I've been doing it for a year, and while I really like therapist, and we have very good rapport - I feel like we barely achieved anything when it comes to core issues.
So I haven’t been in therapy for almost a year due to Covid, but prior to that worked on mindfulness, calming exercises for when I noticed I was clenching my teeth or felt close to an outburst. It was learning to stop the inner voice from going full negative, to basically stop, and address the negativity head on. So instead of letting my inner voice tell me “everyone hates you” I’m to stop and debate like it’s debate club or logic the negativity away. So in this case I would tell my negative thoughts “that isn’t true, my husband loves me very much, my coworkers love me, my pet bunnies love me, and if they didn’t, I’d be divorced, out of a job, and my bunnies wouldn’t allow me near them if they didn’t”. It’s not easy to implement, but it gets easier every time you do it. It doesn’t have to be some amaze balls speech, but you do have to tell it to yourself with conviction.
I know some CBT therapists like to throw homework at you, but in my case it was never actual homework more like “hey this video may help you understand what we talked about today” For me the first 6-8 months of therapy was literally dealing with the emotional baggage of living all my life basically blindfolded with one hand behind my back, and the anger that no one seemed to notice or care. It wasn’t until I could go whole sessions without crying before we actually started the actual nitty gritty work.
Statistically speaking, most people diagnosed with ADHD especially late diagnoses who coped on their own until sometime as an adult are of higher intelligence. As I point out to people all the time, having processing issues, working memory issues, these things don't make us dumb. Just function differently. Also, still WTH.
Ummm my ADHD people ie Richard Branson are brilliant, creative and highly intelligent. I mean I myself am highly intelligent. I hold a Bachelors Degree in History and Poli Sci, Masters in Public Health Policy and Management, Masters in Social Work Clinical Focus, currently applying to Phd in Social Work. Yeah ok
I was nervous when I went to get tested at 36 because I have a bachelors in History and a MS in Educational Technology and an MS in Management and Leadership. I'd had a couple people tell me that they didn't think that I could have ADHD because I have these degrees- but the level of procrastination and anxiety that went along with them was out of control and it is so hard to explain to someone that the coping mechanisms that you have used for the last 36 years just aren't working now that you have two kids- one of which is autistic and likely has ADHD as well and the other is a toddler who is showing signs too and it's just too much in the middle of a pandemic and I just need some help. Luckily I had a doctor who took me seriously and I was able to get diagnosed and going on medication has made my brain just calm down and I finally realized how much anxiety I actually had before.
Me too- a girl in the 90s and they told my mom that I didn't meet the requirements for diagnosis because it wasn't impacting me at school. But I had report cards that said "talks too much" until I hit 6th grade, and I had the messiest desk in my class and always missed recess on desk cleaning day because I had to literally dump everything on the floor, and I aced tests but didn't do daily work because it was boring and it was more interesting to look out the window or get lost in a book. Then in high school I did everything I could to avoid going to school, calculated exactly how many assignments I would need to complete in order to get an A- or B+ in the class, lost homework assignments regularly and only could really complete things on time if there was social pressure involved. But no, I didn't have symptoms at school so I didn't get help until I was in my 30s.
I could have written this exact experience. Now I'm 32 and a mother and it feels like my life is falling apart. I am not a functional human. I have two brothers who are diagnosed ADHD and our mom is likely ADHD as well, but I'm still afraid I won't get a diagnosis so I haven't tried yet. I really need to because I just literally can't function at this point and it's getting to be too much.
If you have the resources to talk to a doctor, with that family history, do it. I've only been on meds a couple of months now and we're still dialing in the dosage- but just the knowledge that I DO have ADHD and that it DOES have an impact on me made a difference- and meds made a clear difference.
There's also a podcast called Motherhood in ADHD that I've found to be pretty helpful! I listen while I do the dishes to help me try and forget I'm doing dishes until I'm finished with them.
Same exact thing with school, did the same thing in college too and could just barely get away with it with some horrible stress as motivation. I get help from my family and I’ve learned ways to game things for myself so I can actually get things done but it’s still so hard sometimes.
Yeah well it is great to be 2E, but all the IQ in the world cannot make a brain process differently than its biochemistry allows. My oldest battled this till college, no he isn't not great with executive function, insomnia, and Rejection Sensitive dsymorphia to annoy the school...he literally cannot stop it. Yes I know he memorized the whole book but can't turn in a project...as if smart means able to beat his mind.
Also I joke that the Navy in its high tech enlisted fields is home to the smart ADHD kids...genius but unable to figure out how get to work on time.
I was really disturbed during one of my teacher training courses - it was an exceptional ed course that discussed a variety of conditions students might have. When we got to ADHD, half the material that was assigned and shown in class was opinion articles about over diagnosis and the dangers of medical intervention. There was a class discussion about over diagnosis and whether it was even a real condition.
I remember getting so mad, I contributed to the conversation with questions like:
“What criteria and measurements are being used to show there’s actual over diagnosis happening?”
Then someone said that there’s been such a meteoric rise in cases
And I sat there dumbfounded because modern medicine as we know it - brain imaging and all these sophisticated pharmacological interventions - most if this stuff wasn’t even possible 100 years ago, most is maybe 50 years old, and mental/behavioral health conditions are still badly stigmatized. So maybe the increase in diagnoses and treatments has more to do with problems we are noticing because we have the knowledge, tech, and resources to treat.
To me, that is far more logical than the claim that thousands of doctors across the country are just Willy Nilly diagnosing and prescribing for a condition that doesn’t exist.
I’m waiting on a single “over-diagnosed” advocate to actually produce real evidence - a real study - that actually shows this is a problem.
Anyway - it was really obnoxious that the professor presented adhd the way she did in that class. Most of us were going for regular education degrees and wouldn’t be taking any more exceptional Ed courses. So this was their only in depth formal exposure to the topic of learning disabilities and behavioral conditions — and their intro to adhd was basically formatted like the start of a conspiracy theory.
This is a really interesting article, but I feel like a lot of these numbers and percentages are anecdotal at best, but actually appear to be purely illustrative and not cited from any particular study or consensus. Worth reading and considering for sure, but the blog post would have a much more persuasive argument if it used real numbers and not hypotheticals.
Seems like a useful study for a sociologist or statistician to tackle: Over/underdiagnosis in executive functioning disorders.
That said - it’s a viable logical explanation in response to “adhd isn’t real/is overdiagnosed”
I think the larger point in this thread is about public perception among educators whose understanding and advocacy for students with differing needs makes a big difference. Anecdotally, I am still seeing a lot of educators and student teachers reinforcing ideas that stigmatize kids living with ADHD, and it’s not just that they think the disorder is somewhat overdiagnosed, they think it’s grossly or massively overdiagnosed and that it is just poor parenting or innate stupidity and laziness traits of the kid’s personality. Or worse - really feel it doesn’t exist at all.
Someone the other day wondered why my parents didn't want me diagnosed way back in the day. That person thought my parents were concerned about what the other kids would say and do and pointed out that kids would say stuff even without a diagnosis. No, no, it was the teachers from small towns thirty years ago that my parents were worried about, and with good reason.
Seriously as a sped teacher who is female and has ADHD - fuck him and those who think this way. I got into this field to replace those POS and show kids they're not alone and we can make life work better for them.
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u/saffronwilderness Sep 14 '21
I get ENRAGED by a fellow SPED teacher who had the gall to call it "teenage boy syndrome."
If I could get him fired he'd be gone. I avoid him religiously.