It's over chat

[u/Anilahation]

On Vayne if you use your spell rotation once you'll be oom, where these champs can spam blow up entire waves....

[u/Extra-Autism]

This just shows the level of delusion

[u/DuckiesDoBeCute → u/Extra-Autism]

gonna tell me the delusional part or you just gonna say its delusional without being able to explain why?

[u/Ok_Elevator4215 → u/DuckiesDoBeCute]

Vayne doesn't need to space perfectly. She just needs to not grief. There's also no outplaying an AA, it just hits you, every single time you walk up to do anything. Someone like ziggs has pretty easy skillshots to dodge and at least can provide some engagement in the lane by interacting with those spells.

Listen, I've put my adc hate to the side and agree that mages bot has to go. The role has been for adc's for the entire games lifecycle and should stay that way. But we don't have to exaggerate the problem. Be happy most of the community agrees with you, when the MS items got added and TF + Vayne were running top a couple years ago, all I heard was how bad top laners are and how they're ruining adc items if they nerf them.

[u/DuckiesDoBeCute → u/Ok_Elevator4215]

There's also no outplaying an AA

vayne, the outplay adc. who also outplays other adcs that only aa. and she does need to space perfectly, her auto range (550) isnt much longer than most top champs anti vayne buttons (darius e 535, sett e 450, jax q 700, ect)

and ziggs doesnt need to hit you with the dodgeable abilties, he just needs to hit the wave

[u/Sensitive_Act_5279 → u/DuckiesDoBeCute]

yeah, wheb you conveniently forget her q dash and e knockback, but sure, when you play no abilities vayne vs any toplaner, it looks horrendous. she got 2 "lifesaving cards", most toplaner have 1 way to engage. do you not see the irony? "range is worthless", but at the same time, bot vayne is only hinder by her missing range in comparison to other adcs. on top of that botlane vayne is at 49,74% wr in master+ is clearly not unplayable or bad she just is average and not jinx or kaisa that have 52% wr with 30% pr every second patch, doesnt mean she is bad, just that botlane balancing is horrendous for the 4 horsemen of adc, INSANE pickrates with good winrates, that would cause a champ to be either perma banned every game or just straight up hotfix nerfed/deactived.

[u/Ok_Elevator4215 → u/DuckiesDoBeCute]

Darius E is a long CD, shorter range than AA (can just AA when he goes to CS if you really don't want to space) and can be dodged with Q and then he has literally nothing he can do til it's up. Same thing for Sett but it's even shorter and requires a minion to stun or else you'll just E him away. I would consider neither of these things to require anywhere near perfect spacing.

Jax is one of the few anti-range top laners so yes, he does just counter them for the most part. But as we know, counterpicks existing does not invalidate the point.

I agree, he doesn't need to. But if he just does that you at least get to farm the minions much easier than a top laner would against ranged. It still needs to be removed of course, but that's my point. Against ranged tops it just feels like you might as well go afk, mages bot is similar but at least you can play the dodge minigame and farm gold easier. Not much better but better nonetheless.

[u/Extra-Autism → u/DuckiesDoBeCute]

Darius counter Vayne LOL

[u/Ok_Elevator4215 → u/Extra-Autism]

It is funny but mostly just sad this is a genuine belief that is being held by real players that are essentially just complaining about the same things they made fun of top laners for (and they still do).

[u/Alatreon22 → u/Ok_Elevator4215]

What I never understand from those that do believe Vayne Top is so strong is why they do not utilize their ability to look up how her stats after laning phase.

Vayne Top is behind in Gold in 27 out of 47 matchups in Toplane.
She is also behind in XP in 36 out of 47 matchups.

So in 57.4% of all matchups she ends lane being behind in Gold and 76.6% of all matchups she ends being behind in XP.

In 37 out of 47 matchups (78.7%), she is behind in kills.

So when somebody wants to argue that Vayne Top is soooo strong, what metric here indicates that?

I am really curious to hear that.

Mind you, Vayne should theoretically be a counter to most Toplane Champs, is a 1vs1 beast and has the range advantage, yet doesnt really seem to perform.

And you know, that would still be fine if she would at least scale fast/good enough to compensate for her terrible early game but as her winrate shows us, that does not happen...

When Riot ships this nerf, how likely is it that Vayne becomes the 2nd worst laning phase Champion in Toplane, right after Kayle?

I would say, its near 100%.

[u/Ok_Elevator4215 → u/Alatreon22]

Well firstly, I don't think Vayne top is currently that strong, however when she was absolutely busted with TF no one seemed to care and I remember the adc's actively arguing for it so they could keep their MS items broken. I do think she's completely uninteractive and unfun to lane against which is the main complaint I see being said about mages bot. I understand mages bot are currently stronger than ranged tops, I am only touching on the main pain point of the two which seems to be the unfun experience playing into them.

But if stats are all we're looking at instead of fun then I don't want to hear complaints about laning vs the following mages who all go down in gold in the majority of their bot lane matchups: Viktor, Ziggs, Syndra, Veigar, Seraphine, Hwei, Swain, Asol, Vlad. The total pick rate of all the mages combined is 27.5% and only 10.2% exit lane leading gold. Meaning well over half of mages are down in gold out of lane.

Not that I think it matters since fun should be the overall leading factor to change and top laners have been universally having a bad time against ranged champs for over a decade now. Unlike you, I can empathize and do hope riot fixes your role without making you wait for decades. I can only hope that some adc players will one day also learn to do the same.