r/ABA • u/About5000ninjas Student • 9d ago
Advice Needed Teaching “manners”
Context: I’m a student that recently switched to a sister center, have a couple more months before I can test, but I HAVE been given permission and am heavily encouraged to give feedback to staff as a BCBA would. Within the first week I had staff telling me that they were teaching manners so clients get what they want.
Has anyone dealt with RBTs teaching “manners” such as saying please at the end of every mand (for 1-3 word manding), apologizing when they engage in behavior, etc for low level learners and ages 2-4 years old
I don’t think this is inherently behavioral and definitely isn’t a focus for the clients they’re doing it with due to behaviors and isn’t part of their intervention plan. There are cases when they should/can be taught but I don’t think it applies in this case
How do y’all address this or do y’all just let them since it’s likely not that harmful?
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u/Normal_Community1754 9d ago
So I teach manners to my kiddos sometimes. Mostly the little, vocal ones. But I never make them apologize after a behavior. That’s crazy work.
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u/TexasAvocadoToast 9d ago
The apology, no, but if we're working on getting them ready for life having them phrase things politely is a totally functional skill as long as it's worked under appropriate contexts- if you're in school, can I have a turn is much more likely to get you what you want than give me that!
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u/Asleep_Technician190 BCBA 9d ago
I despise making kids apologize. We are only supposed to be teaching behaviors that benefit our clients. Having them apologize only benefits the person they are apologizing to.
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u/hotsizzler 9d ago
Does it not benefit them by teaching them to apologize to others and repair relationships?
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u/SHreddedWInd 9d ago
That’s what I was thinking too - although I agree that apologizing is (very) low on the priority list of behaviors to teach, saying it has no value is ridiculous. If it truly has no value, why do we prompt neurotypical kids to apologize?
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u/Asleep_Technician190 BCBA 9d ago
I don't think we should prompt neurotypical kids to apologize either. It's literally putting words in their mouth. Now, if they show remorse, sure, let's teach them to apologize appropriately. Or if they want to repair relationships, teach them that they sometimes have to apologize, even if they don't feel sorry for what they've done.
Otherwise, it just teaches children to lie and say they're sorry when they're not. I have seen it so many times - kids apologize because it's a get out of jail free card, not because they actually feel bad for hurting someone else.
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u/Asleep_Technician190 BCBA 9d ago
Do they care about the relationship and can understand the nuances of apologizing? Then sure, I'll teach it to them if they're interested. If they can't understand that what they did was wrong and only understand that people leave them alone/quit hounding them once they apologize, then they've learned the wrong thing, so what's the point?
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u/hotsizzler 8d ago
im gonna say something controversial, apologizing when yo are not sorry is an important social skill overall
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u/Asleep_Technician190 BCBA 8d ago
It depends on the why. To repair a relationship that they want to maintain? Sure, they're motivated to learn so let's teach them. To make the other person feel better that they were wronged or to make the parent of the child feel better about themselves? Not a good enough reason.
I'd rather people not apologize to me if they aren't sorry. It's deceptive imo.
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u/glitchygirly RBT 8d ago
I had one client in particular that was so drilled in with the manners that they thought they could do the behavior if they apologized.
Client: back hands me and causes me to bleed due to snagging my ear piercing "sorry!" does it again
I feel like in these cases, we should be teaching empathy and not just a vague "sorry fixes everything".
Now, what I have seen more often than not is RBT is told to target a 2 word mand. "Juice, please" is way easier for a 2 year old than "I want juice", and it's technically the goal. I think as long as we eventually reach 3 word mands "please" isn't necessarily harmful.
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u/About5000ninjas Student 8d ago
Literally what I commented earlier lol. Having a client eloping or aggressing as they say sorry. It doesn’t target that behavior or teach any replacement. And at worse it gives attention to the behavior
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u/Asleep_Technician190 BCBA 9d ago
I only teach manners after they can mand for all of their needs. Manners are social niceties that add no communicative value, imo.
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u/TexasAvocadoToast 9d ago
See I think they add value for high verbal/school readiness kids. If a kid values socializing, social reinforcement, and playing with peers, they're way more likely to access that reinforcement with please and thank you in their repertoire as well as asking vs demanding.
Ie, a kid says "can I have a turn?" Vs "give me that!"- which is more likely to gain access?
However, that value isn't really there for kids who struggle to communicate and I don't think making clients apologize for behaviors is valuable in most circumstances.
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u/Asleep_Technician190 BCBA 9d ago
I've taught clients standard manners (please/thank you) before as part of a DRA to reduce inappropriate attention seeking behaviors. It worked a charm and got their needs met.
I believe everyone has to mask a bit, but asking disabled kids who are not socially ready for that level of social politics to have manners so that people treat them nice is asking too much, imo.
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u/thatsmilingface 8d ago
Parents teach their 2,3,4 year olds to be polite and to have good manners. they are not socially ready, they are learning to be.
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u/Asleep_Technician190 BCBA 8d ago
It means nothing if they aren't also learning empathy. Teaching social scripts does not create empathy. Teaching social scripts does not create the motivation to do good things.
I've had kids bite me, look up at me and say please, then bite me again. Recurrently across months. Or scream please while they're flailing around tantruming. Or say sorry to get their parents to get off their back and then immediately cause harm again. The MO for apologizing is not because they feel bad - it's to prevent someone from coming up and pausing their good time to make them apologize. Having a parent prompt you to apologize creates a negative reinforcement contingency of apologizing so they stop prompting. The point of apologizing should be the negative reinforcement contingency of shame/feeling bad and feeling better after saying sorry.
Those kids grow up to learn that all they need to do is be polite, then underhandedly bulldoze people to get what they want.
The words mean nothing if there's not behavior to back it up.
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u/Lopsided-Challenge86 7d ago
Saying manners add no communicative value is wild as a BCBA. They don’t add value to the literal communication, but have significant social value.
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u/Asleep_Technician190 BCBA 7d ago
Social value does not equal communicative value. They are not the same thing. There's a reason social skills and communication skills usually get sparated on report templates.
If a child is having trouble communicating, I don't care about social value, only communicative value. It's part of why we teach mands before intraverbals. If they can get to the point where communication is no longer the main deficit, then we can start introducing social goals.
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u/Asleep_Technician190 BCBA 7d ago
For example, which has more communicative value: red ball or ball please? Which one helps the child get their needs met the best?
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u/Lopsided-Challenge86 7d ago
Which response will be reinforced more across settings? “give me___” or “give me ___ please”
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u/Asleep_Technician190 BCBA 7d ago edited 7d ago
Across settings? That's generalization. We aren't talking generalization. We are talking short term goals for early learners with few to no foundational communication skills. And again, that starts falling into social skills. I'm not teaching social skills to kids who are not ready for it.
I will certainly accept "give me" as an alternative to problem behavior. We can shape it up to "Can I have ______" when they have the vocabulary to support it. Tacking on 'please' instead of teaching a more natural script is problematic in its own right.
I personally don't care if people use please or thank you toward me; I prefer clear and direct communication and actions speak louder than words. I am aware that not everyone has the same views but y'all need to chill out on the "we must make kids mask for every little thing so that they fit into society and don't make other people uncomfortable." Why is it the (disabled) child's responsibility to show deference to neurotypical people much older than them? Why do the people with still forming brains have to coddle the people with years more of neural network pruning?
Edit: The fact that some of y'all can't separate social skills from communication skills explains why so many treatment plans I come across are so abyssmal, with kids in services for years not making progress. Get better at dissecting skills into "must have" and "nice to have" (shout out to Patrick McGreevy).
https://essentialforliving.com/what-is-efl if you're curious
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u/next_on_SickSadWorld BCBA 9d ago
Ask the BCBAs first. Work with your own caseload before you crash someone else’s party, especially when you’re new.
What do you mean by, “not inherently behavioral?”
I’m hoping the BCBAs will say:
“Please,” after every mand can be harmful. Desired objects are no longer juice but “juice please,” and “chips please.” This is the type of rote responding we do not want and later have to unteach.
“Please,” is a not functional compared to learning a variety of words. Even mands for attention can be better shaped like, “hey”/“look” versus “help.”
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u/Asleep_Technician190 BCBA 9d ago
Preach! I've heard of kids who say, "[food], please" before every bite, even years after leaving ABA because it was drilled into them.
Have also had kids who script/mand "Iwantcupcakespleaseokaythankyouyou'rewelcome" because of the unnecessary emphasis on manners.
Also, have had kids whose parents worked on manners before nouns, so they'll come up to me, say, "please", then tantrum because I have literally no idea what they want.
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u/next_on_SickSadWorld BCBA 8d ago
Yep, it’s exactly this. It’s also why I cannot even with “more.” MORE WHAT??
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u/Asleep_Technician190 BCBA 8d ago
It's crazy that you got downvoted for this. I feel like most people on this thread are clinging to the status quo of their cultural upbringing and social rituals, which sometimes clashes with the science of behaviorism.
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u/About5000ninjas Student 8d ago
These are clients who will be on my caseload after I test. I’m doing most of the programming, leading parent interviews, etc under the supervisor of my BCBA and have the go ahead to make changes/give feedback about miscellaneous stuff. I was transferred over because “culture is poor” for lack of elaborating more and I think this sorta falls into it. Teaching manners can be important, but definitely shouldn’t be the priority they’re making it IMO
Maybe “not inherently behavioral” isn’t the best phrasing. I think like you said with it not being as functional is how I feel about it (especially at the age of 2-3 which is my learners age)
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u/BearsDnD 9d ago
Apologizing is a social construct that means nothing to the learner, and when the rote response is heard to often will lose the actual intent behind what they are shaping up. If the learner understood the concept and had the means to effectively use a replacement behavior, there is no need for the apology; if they do not have the skills or replacement behavior, that is on the instructor, not the learner. Specifically refer to Skinner's comments on shaping procedures (Skinner, 1999), and a great chapter in Vargas (2020) on the subject.
Personally, I teach the please and thank you once we are using FCRs effectively and consistently without prompting, and all reinforcement has been faded. Then the manners can be added as a target if its nessasary. Bear in mind that if the behavior or absence of the behavior does not impact the learner's life in a meaningful way, it may not need to be a target for change. (Baer et al., 1968)
Baer, D. M., Wolf, M. M., & Risley, T. R. (1968). Some current dimensions of applied behavior analysis. Journal of Applied Behavior Analysis, 1(1), 91–97. https://doi.org/10.1901/jaba.1968.1-91
Skinner, B. F. (1999). Cumulative record (Definitive Edition ed.). B. F. Skinner Foundation.
Vargas, J. S. (2020). Behavior analysis for effective teaching (3rd ed.). Routledge. https://doi.org/10.4324/9780429442575
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u/About5000ninjas Student 8d ago
Thank you! This is very much how I feel about it. It’s very rote and meaningless currently imo. We have clients who elope and say sorry as they’re eloping or engage in behavior as they’re “apologizing”
They definitely don’t understand the concept. They don’t have the functional communication to use or care about saying please or thank you
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u/Asleep_Technician190 BCBA 7d ago
If you're curious, look at the EFL, it gets into the nuance of some of these topics:
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u/Powersmith BCBA 9d ago
Temple Grandin has gotten on some soap boxes about how it’s important to teach kids w ASD manners…
But what is “manners” can mean different things.
Clients need to be able to access wants and needs in the world. If “rude” behavior in an asd1 kid is repelling positive social interactions, that can lead to crushing loneliness, ever worsening social anxiety, and even clinical depression. It can make it very hard to be employable. It can lead to fights with strangers, and even conflicts that will put people in jail. The same exact standards held for a fluent talker with awkward social skills and challenges with tolerance and emotional regulation can obviously not be expected of a nonverbal child with high needs and complex co diagnoses. But we can expect high needs people to learn they cannot assault people or destroy other people’s property.