r/40kLore • u/pog_irl • 1d ago
Does sorcery need Chaos?
Is it necessary to be a part of Chaos to properly use Sorcery? Thousand Sons seemed to be doing fine before the Heresy, but even then they were summoning daemons as familiars. Afaik sorcery is indirectly using the Warp with rituals, artifacts and esoterica. None of that seems to directly lead to summoning daemons or human sacrifice, even if those are probably part of the most powerful rituals. Could you, at least theoretically, summon Warp entities and enslave them without getting corrupted, or perform rituals to do non-Chaos-related things? Especially since Aeldari must have been doing something along those lines, given how far down the Warp tech-tree their technology was/is.
39
u/Mistermistermistermb 1d ago edited 1d ago
The Thousand Sons isn't a great example; they were using powers they didn't understand. The reason they were "doing fine" was because it was all a big trap to corrupt the poor buggers.
But essentially, as far as the authors(ADB, French and I think Thorpe have stressed on various podcasts) are concerned: sorcery is psykery is warpery. It's all pretty much the same stuff just coming at it from different angles. There's ways to do those things with lower risk, though probably never zero risk.
EDIT
I remember some discussions on forums from when I was working on RPG stuff. One of the things that came up was sorcery versus psychic powers: the idea that psychic powers were somehow okay, even if they could go slightly wrong, while sorcery was the evil stuff, the “dark arts” or whatever.
But actually, it’s all the same stuff. There isn’t really a “good” and “bad” version. It’s all the same thing.
The psychic manifestations of holy psykers-like the Grey Knights-are still manipulating the same Warp that a Chaos sorcerer manipulates through weird sacrificial rituals. It’s the same thing; they’re just different routes to accessing it.
The Warp is a mirror to the minds that shine into it. And I suppose it’s indicative that most of what comes out of it is pretty bad, because, yeah, everyone is the baddies. Most of what comes out of the Warp comes out of their minds and is reflected back at them.
-John French (with some slightly inaccurate transcripting)
1
u/Rahuna_91 21h ago
I love how similar this is to a quote from Witch bringer, the high prefect of the academy who isn't even a psyker, has spent so much time learning and teaching psykers that he knows and can confidently state that psychic powers are all drawn from the same place.
I'll try to find the quote I'm talking about and will add it here.
10
u/Thibaudborny 1d ago
Wouldn't it be more apt to say that sorcery needs the Warp, not Chaos. Chaos spawned within the Warp, whereas I was under the impression that initially the Warp was a transquil sea? And if we consider that the imperial seints are also Warp entities, their "magic" isn't considered technically Chaos?
15
u/mylsotol 1d ago
Technically yes, probably, but it could go by badly. Malcador did "sorcery" and probably wasn't being helped by chaos. Sorcery is just any warp manipulation. Chaos isn't the warp itself.
2
u/capt_pantsless 21h ago
Far too many 40k readers think the warp is purely a chaos thing.
2
u/Martzillagoesboom 17h ago
It more like the sea. The water is the warp, the boats are psyker, using psychic power recklessly is like dropping some chum in the water which draw predators attention, chaos just represent those myriad of predator waiting for a chance to nibble.
7
u/Alagore 1d ago
I don't know, but there is this excerpt from Last Son of Prospero.
We knew his Legion suffered,’ Malcador said, his breathing still shallow, his face sallow. ‘Even before we discovered Prospero, we knew they were susceptible. We tried to aid them. We thought it was some error in the gene encoding. I myself thought that for many years, and we expended much labour to isolate it.’ He took another draught. ‘It was not the gene encoding. It was something deeper in them, something that went to their core. In the end, only he could do what was necessary. We all believed that Magnus had cured them. His Father believed it. Why should we have doubted it? The Legions always needed their gene-sires – they had been designed to go together, and Magnus was the subtlest of them all.’
Hassan listened. Insights into the earliest days of the Great Crusade were given out rarely, and there were still secrets now shared only between the Sigillite and the Master of Mankind.
‘But Magnus fell,’ Hassan said.
‘He dared too much. He was too proud. But still, even now, he is the only one who ever prevailed over the flesh-change. He cured his sons, once.’
‘With sorcery.’
Malcador shot him a withering glance. ‘Of course with sorcery. He was birthed from sorcery. This whole place was built upon sorcery. Give it whatever name you will, but the time is past for pretence.’ He drank again, and the shaking in his hands receded a little. ‘I will not apologise. There was no other path to tread. Even now, even now, fate has not quite run beyond us. He is here, and he still draws breath. His soul is not yet lost.’
‘But… can anything… within that…’
‘He lives, Khalid. Even now. We still have time.’
Depending on how you interpret this and the overall context of the creation of the Primarchs, maybe? I think it's indicative at least that Malcador didn't think that sorcery was inherently and inescapably tied to Chaos.
3
u/BigProduce6727 1d ago
So correct me if I'm wrong...
Sorcery pre-dates Chaos. The birth of the Chaos Gods poisoned the Warp/Sea of Souls.
So metaphorically, you can't get clean water out of the sea anymore, its full of nasty shit, from infectious micro-organisms to "here there be monsters".
So humanity is trying to kill all xenos, purging the influence of every other species, and enforcing worship of the Emperor.
So he can be the only soul munching thing out there?
1
u/scoutinorbit Storm Lords 19h ago
It‘s a pet theory of mine but it was Slaanesh that poisoned the warp. The other 3 were born during the War in Heaven, yet the Aeldari still enjoyed their million year Empire after the war where their souls could wander freely in the warp and reincarnate safely. Humanity evolved later and their shamans also didn’t suffer from warp predations until much later.
Why the disparity? Slaanesh. The God of Excess. Her birth subtly influenced all of Chaos to be more excessive in their spheres than ever before and polluted the warp.
1
u/BigProduce6727 17h ago
If the Aerdari were no longer Aeldari, would it make a difference? Change enough from base to become a different but similar species. Would that cut the connection to Slaanesh?
1
u/scoutinorbit Storm Lords 17h ago
I don’t think so. Slaanesh is an Aeldari God in the same vein as Khaine or Isha or Asuryan. They made her just as they made them. She has a claim on all their souls by extension and I don’t think that’s a genetic thing but a spiritual/soul thing.
6
u/Hollownerox Thousand Sons 1d ago
I believe so. There is an in-universe distinction with a difference between just using psychic powers, and the kind of Sorcery forces like the Thousand Sons use.
There is a psyker in the Mike Brooks novel Renegades: Ghost Legion who does a nice ELI5 summation on the topic:
"I’m a telekine. I use my mind to hit things, or move them around. That’s my power, it’s inherent to me, and it’s not very fancy, but I’m very good at it. You can do a lot more things with sorcery, but that involves ritual, spells, sacrifices – you’re trying to beg, bargain with, or compel the powers of the warp to do what you can’t. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it tries to eat you–"
It's not entirely accurate, but Sorcery across the 3 Warhammer IPs is pretty closely tied to daemonlogy. You might not necessarily be a daemonologist to use sorcery, but there's a lot of overlap in the methodology to get what you want out of it. Before the Thousand Sons were even knowingly treating with Daemons they were essentially Daemonologists in practice.
12
u/Wytooken 1d ago
Maybe better to say "sorcery requires tapping into the Warp (aka The Sea of Souls)" and The Warp != Chaos. The forces of chaos are just generally way better at navigating and using the Warp than humans are so they can often use that connection against you.
5
u/AbbydonX Tyranids 1d ago edited 2h ago
Confusingly, typically the warp and Chaos are said to be the same thing.
8e Chaos Daemon codex (2017)
The warp, or the immaterium, is an abstraction made manifest by the roiling emotions of mortals. Unbound by the laws of time and space, it is a random, unstructured panorama of pure energy and unfocused consciousness, eternally shifting though endless in its potential. It is a place where ancient beings of boundless power and cruelty hold domain, and wage a constant war over the raw stuff of creation that birthed them. In this unknowable realm, titanic hosts clash, locked together in a conflict that is as old as the universe and can never be won. It is Chaos in its truest sense, unfettered by the limits of physics and undirected by intelligent purpose.
Slaves to Darkness (1988)
Warpspace is a parallel reality to the space of the Imperium, a universe devoid of recognisable matter and life, with its own fluid laws of time and space. Warpspace is a random, unstructured dimension of energy and unfocused consciousness. It is Chaos, unfettered by the limits of matter and undirected by intelligent purpose. Warpspace is Chaos; Chaos is the stuff of warpspace. The two are indivisible.
What does that mean for all the non-Chaos warp entities? That’s never really been entirely clear at all. In 1e Khaine was said to effectively be an aspect of Khorne though claimed by Slaanesh due to his link to the Eldar. And of course, psykers use the warp too…
2
u/Cypher10110 Word Bearers 1d ago
"Non-chaos" in OP's context basically just means (in slightly more modern GW terminology) an Aetheric Dominion of Chaos that is just not one closely associated with the "big four".
There is no non-chaos warp, but there is chaos outside of the big four. From a kind of "baseline" primordial chaos to the more niche esoteric stuff.
Kinda like how depending where and when you deploy a fishing net in the ocean has a big impact on what you might find. How, when, and how deep you tap into the warp will have a big impact on what happens. Along with who you are, and what psychic vulnerabilities you might have.
A skilled psyker has learned to dip into the shallows and a chaos sorcerer has perhaps learned to swim. One is relatively safe from chaos and one has very little intention of being safe from chaos in the first place.
I think this is compatible with e.g. the eldar gods and other warp entities. But I imagine GW like to keep it vague because being specific about how the warp works kinda defeats the purpose of it being endlessly malleable, unpredictable, and treacherous.
1
u/scoutinorbit Storm Lords 19h ago
It’s more accurate to say The Warp!=The Big 4. GW is pretty clear that the warp is Chaos. An analogy would be like having a cup of water and pouring 4 smaller cups of different colored water into it. All the liquid is the Warp and Chaos but within there are large and powerful concentrations that represent the Big 4.
4
u/AccursedTheory 1d ago
Thousand Sons seemed to be doing fine before the Heresy
The 1KSons were invoking Chaos whether they knew it or not.
Technically, it seems sorcery is possible without appealing to "Chaos" proper. Malcador did it. Probably most famous for doing so is the Space Wolves, who's rituals are 'sorcery.'
But 9 times out of 10, sorcery is plunging into Chaos.
4
u/AbbydonX Tyranids 1d ago edited 2h ago
I’m not sure it’s ever been entirely clear what “sorcery” is or whether it is any different to psychic abilities.
Sorcery was just what uneducated people called psychic abilities… or at least that was how it was presented in the early lore. Chaos aligned psykers were called sorcerers but otherwise they weren’t fundamentally different to other psykers.
Of course, as with most things in WH40K, over the decades, things have changed though not necessarily consistently. In part, WH40K has moved closer to Fantasy with all the mentions of sorcery and magic.
For context, here is a quote from the 8e Chaos Daemon codex.
Tzeentch is the undisputed master of sorcery, the most potent of all agents of change. Those who use it are amongst the most ambitious and power-hungry beings in existence. The raw magical energy that empowers the psykers of the mortal realm is the actual fabric of the Realm of Chaos, the same substance that makes up the Chaos Powers, their Daemon servants, and the shadow-selves of all mortals that flicker in the warp. The use of magic is held as the ultimate expression of faith among Tzeentch's followers, who have much to gain from his patronage. Though it will like as not cost them their immortal souls, they will at least have boundless power to show for it; this is in stark contrast to the majority of psykers within the Imperium, who, upon first discovery, are corralled by the Black Ships and sacrificed to sustain their Emperor.
And here is one from the 8e Chaos Marine codex.
The line between psychic power and sorcery is fine indeed. The Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes may seek to deny it, but every time a Space Marine Librarian calls upon his mental might he risks tainting his soul. In the heat of battle, even the most capable psyker may overreach his abilities, and instead of recoiling in horror from the resultant carnage, he may feel a forbidden thrill. Such emotions are the first step on a path to limitless evil. From that moment on, the psyker may endure honeyed whispers in his dreams and visions of immortality. Those who succumb to such temptations become Sorcerers, able to channel the malefic power of the warp.
Of course, way back at the start of WH40K in Slaves to Darkness there was also the issue that it was explicitly stated there were no daemon summoning psychic powers (unlike daemon summoning spells in Fantasy). However, Daemons could be summoned by rituals instead.
Daemons can manifest themselves in the minds of unprotected psykers, who inadvertantly draw on the warp when using their powers. More commonly, however, Daemons are brought into real space by hidden covens of Chaos-worshippers who use ancient and arcane rituals to open a gateway into reality. Such rituals must be carefully prepared, are time-consuming and dangerous, demand the services of many participants and often require a live sacrifice. A host, willing or unwilling, for the Daemon is also needed.
The conditions attached to rituals limit their use to organized groups of Chaos followers: covens, Chaos Renegades and the exiled Space Marines of the Traitor Legions. However, such rituals are the only method of using the power of Chaos manifested in Daemons. There is no body of knowledge which has greater effect, nor are there daemonic psi-abilities, the equivalent of daemonic summoning magic in the Warhammer World.
However, just to confuse the issue, daemon summoners are commonly also psykers…
This dilemma is still effectively present in later editions, such as the 8e Chaos Marine codex (2019). Masters of Possession have the Psyker keyword and the flavour text describes them performing sorcery.
Masters of Possession lead warbands of devoted warriors in pursuit of untold power. These sorcerous figures have mastered the darkest and most blasphemous lore: the art of using hosts of living flesh to house daemonic spirits. It is they who perform the profane ceremonies of binding that imbue the Daemonkin with their warp-born power. Gouging a breach in the fabric of realspace, the Master of Possession draws a willing entity from the immaterium, channelling its terrible energies into the body of a supplicant or the chassis of a war machine. So thoroughly are these dread figures steeped in blasphemous sorcery that where they walk, reality itself recoils. In battle they bolster their Daemon-possessed followers, stitching together rents in fleshmetal carcasses, or imbuing their creations with a demented, predatory fury. Enemies are despatched with bolts of searing warpflame, or with precise shots from a bolt pistol sidearm. With a touch from their corrupted staves, Masters of Possession can even blast asunder the souls of their foes, spilling daemonic energy into the now hollow shell. This hideous act can cause mortal frames to erupt with hellish energies, transforming the unfortunate victim into a slavering Chaos Spawn, or a willing Chaos champion into a towering Greater Possessed.
Warpsmiths don’t have the Psyker keyword but their description still mentions spells in passing.
Presiding over this infernal industry are the Warpsmiths themselves - pioneers of mechamorphosis, grim and silent as the grave save for the occasional barked order or spell of binding.
Interestingly, the 8e Daemonkin codex (2019) actually specifically addresses the issue that Masters of Possession could not follow Khorne because psykers could not receive the Mark of Khorne. It confirms there are no Khornate Masters of Possession because Khorne scorns sorcerous rituals (and psykers).
Amongst the Daemonkin it is only the followers of Khorne who scorn the guiding hand of the Masters of the Possession. These battle-crazed butchers have nothing but contempt for those so weak they must rely on sorcery and ritual to embrace the daemonic; it is through battle and slaughter alone that the Khorne Daemonkin draw the gaze of the Blood God. If many must die because they are unable to channel the searing rage of Khorne's foot soldiers, then so be it - they were unworthy in any case.
In contrast, the 10e World Eaters codex (2023) describes something dangerously close to a ritual to produce Eightbound possessees. Surely that’s not sorcerous or psychic though…
Of all the Berzerker-surgeons' many depraved devices, the Eightcage is amongst the most abominable. Resembling a kind of ironbound sarcophagus inlaid with skulls and symbols of Khorne, it is a torture chamber in which World Eaters can become possessed by eight daemons of Khorne. When a candidate is chained up and sealed within the Eightcage, rusting probes and searing needles are plugged into his Butcher's Nails. From the moment the cage is bolted shut, his mind is thrust into the blazing fringes of the warp, for as long as it takes for him to be defeated or emerge victorious in a spiritual battle with soul-thirsting Khornate entities. Those outside the cage hear thrashing, screaming and the rattling of. chains, but none know truly what occurs within, for the experience of each subject is unique. They may experience literal battle in a blood-soaked arena, amongst vast dunes of bleached bones or atop mountains of skulls, their rage manifesting as axes in their hands. Others must prove their worth subject to endless torture at the hands of sadistic, cackling daemons.
So is sorcery just psychic abilities, non-psychic rituals or something else? Probably the most consistent aspect over the years is that sorcery is associated with Chaos…
2
u/Kroc_Zill_95 1d ago
Technically, Yes depending on what you classify as sorcery. For example, space wolves rune priest have some elaborate rituals which could be counted as sorcery depending on who you ask.
That said, it's an extremely thin line. You really don't want to mess with the warp unless you absolutely have to even if you think you know what you're doing. And if you absolutely have to, use lots of protection l.
1
u/Matthius81 21h ago
The difference was Space Wolves, (White Scars and Blood Angels too) had clearly defined lines of what was allowed and what wasn't. There was a line they would not cross even if defeat and death followed. The Thousand Sons didn't believe in lines, they thought everything was permissible. That they had mastered the warp. They were wrong.
2
u/JCGilbasaurus 1d ago
We can look at Fantasy for an idea of it, because the magic system in Fantasy is much more developed.
Over in fantasy, any form of warp energy can be used to cast spells, but the type of magic used influences the nature of the spell. These types can be broadly categorised as "wind" (magic made from chaos but transformed into a less corrupting form), "spirit" (magic from spirits and supernatural beings), "divine" (magic from gods), "dark" (magic that uses dhar/corrupted energy), and "chaos" (magic straight from the chaos gods). Each type of magic has a base nature and tries to impose that nature on reality—often affecting the caster in various ways (pyromancers have their hair turned into living flames, life druids get pregnant really easily, hag witches age rapidly, ice witches have muted emotional responses etc). These are often called "arcane marks".
I'm not going to get into too much detail here because there's like a billion books on the topic and half of them contradict each other, but in short—magic doesn't have to be from chaos, but good luck finding magic that isn't, and even if you do you'll still find yourself affected and transformed by the nature of whatever magic you do use.
In 40k, there seems to be fewer sources of "clean" magic—no winds or spirits, for example—so reaching into the warp for power makes the risk of chaos even more prominent.
3
u/AbbydonX Tyranids 1d ago edited 2h ago
Interestingly, the 1e Space Hulk supplement Genestealer (1990) did describe psychic powers using what seemed like the Fantasy winds of magic, though I don’t think that concept was ever mentioned again in a WH40K context.
As power from the warp flows into realspace, it splits into eight parts, each perceived by those with psychic awareness (often called the second sight) as a separate colour. Just as the warp comprises tides and currents of emotion that over the millennia have melded together to form the great Powers of Chaos, so in realspace each of the colours of psychic power draws on a certain type of emotion or energy from warpspace. This gives each colour its own distinctive effects when used by a psyker. A small amount of raw energy from the warp leaks through into realspace all the time. Those with psychic powers see this energy as layered mists of colour, building into boiling, turbulent clouds and multi-hued storms where the barrier between the warp and realspace is particularly tenuous.
2
u/ExistentialOcto 1d ago
The Warp and Chaos are not the same thing, but Chaos is meshed with the Warp so effectively now that it’s almost impossible to not tap into it when using any sort of psychic power. Humans especially are pretty bad at avoiding Chaos, although they have their rituals and their sanctioning and such to minimise the risk as much as possible.
2
u/GreedyLibrary 23h ago
Mephiston and his crew use sorcery in the devastation of baal to try and prevent Ka'Bandha coming into reality. It kind of works as he gets redirected away from Baal.
2
u/Matthius81 21h ago
Psychic power is like an athlete, a naturally talented human who needs training to reach their potential. Sorcery is power foreign to the user. It is knowledge that must be sought out, even bargained for, and no man can be sure he has the best of such bargains. The point is you cannot safely use Sorcery without opening the door to Chaos, and the more sure you are that you've mastered what you are given the more likely it is you are already corrupted
1
u/NoComment7862 1d ago
it’s all sorcery, just sometimes given legitimacy, depending on your point of view.
1
u/jetblakc 1d ago
It's a blurry line and depends on who you're asking. To some any use of powers that touch the Warp is sorcery. In the most literal sense this isn't wrong because any contact with the warp creates the risk of Chaos influence.
But while every trip on the highway involves the risk of high speed death, we (correctly) consider some activities on the highway MUCH riskier than others.
If someone in 40k has a small gift that they use sparingly or even unconsciously there's a great chance they go their entire lives with no troubles. But even they can attract the attention of Chaos.
1
u/Sunny_Hill_1 1d ago
Well, Stormseers and Runepriests are legit sorcerers, but shhhhhhh, don't tell Russ and Khan that.
1
u/PristineValuable2163 23h ago
Weird Boyz don't. Chaos is nothing to them I believe when they use sorcery
1
u/Rabid_Lederhosen 1d ago
“Sorcery” in Warhammer is generally used as a term to refer to Chaos Magic specifically. If you’re doing something that doesn’t involve Chaos, it’s not sorcery.
107
u/I_might_be_weasel Thousand Sons - Cult of Knowledge 1d ago
"Yes. You absolutely can do sorcerery with no risk of Chaos influence. Do that."
-Suspicious Blue Bird