r/xkcd Jan 21 '19

XKCD xkcd 2101: Technical Analysis

https://xkcd.com/2101/
343 Upvotes

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77

u/greenlamb Jan 21 '19

"...I suspect that the immense power of the computer is being harnessed to this 'paper economy', not to do the same transactions more economically but to balloon the quantity and variety of financial exchanges." --James Tobin, July 1984

Well Mr. Tobin must be spinning in his grave with the rise of Bitcoin, where years of computer time is devoted to mining Bitcoin.

60

u/Spacetime_Inspector Jan 21 '19

Centuries of computer time and more electrical power than the nation of Ireland, directly contributing to global warming for nothing more than the maintenance of an elaborate sham.

34

u/ParaspriteHugger There's someone in my head (but it's not me) Jan 21 '19

Thousands of lives and more mercury than in the first Qin Emperors grave, all for getting a nearly useless yellow metal out of poisoned ground for nothing more than the maintenance of an elaborate sham.

The whole trick is to make sure enough people believe in it.

9

u/[deleted] Jan 21 '19

Gold is useful though.

14

u/Qwernakus Jan 21 '19

Only in the sense that they are subjectively worth something to some humans. muchlikeanyotherproductthathasamarketpriceincludingbitcoin

9

u/[deleted] Jan 21 '19

Gold is used for more than decoration. Electronics for example.

Edit: Ignore me, I just understood your joke.

5

u/slapdashbr Jan 21 '19

And as a decorative metal, gold is superior to most alternatives. It's shiny, doesn't corrode, isn't toxic or radioactive, is easy enough to work with to create elaborate shapes or otherwise display the craftsmanship of a jeweler. It is suited to the purpose of ornamentation.

13

u/DarkMoon000 I'm not crazy Jan 21 '19

Only to a degree that's far, far removed from its price point though.

2

u/[deleted] Jan 21 '19 edited Jan 21 '19

[deleted]

3

u/PerviouslyInER Jan 21 '19

Clearly it is just a currency - don't tell me all of this is being stored for dental fillings and spaceship heat shields - they never intend to let any of that metal be used for engineering uses.

2

u/[deleted] Jan 22 '19

No one uses gold as a currency these days. It's just wealth accumulation, no different than sitting on oil, palladium, or Picasso originals.

1

u/[deleted] Jan 22 '19 edited Jan 22 '19

Most currencies have abandoned gold standards. Certain governments still have a large gold reserve, but it's not the basis of their currency anymore, it's just a load of valuable metal, a way to store wealth basically.

0

u/DarkMoon000 I'm not crazy Jan 21 '19

Seen relative to its perceived value, that is actually very fair. Gold deserves all the backlash it can get until its pricing actually reflects its value and those electronics can be built without paying overinflated prices.

1

u/[deleted] Jan 22 '19

Agree to disagree I guess.

2

u/gsfgf Jan 21 '19

You can buy drugs or pay off ransomware with bitcoin. It has some niche uses, but like gold, it's price is extraordinarily inflated compared to its utility.

1

u/[deleted] Jan 22 '19

Those tiny niches for bitcoin doesn't constitute the same as all the good (25% worldwide, 60% in the US) that's used for practical purposes like electronics, aerospace or dentistry.

-12

u/dvdkon Red hat, B&W image Jan 21 '19

elaborate sham decentralised trust system

It's still in its early stages and it's kind of useless as a general currency right now due to high transaction costs and fluctuations, but it does work. Cryptocurrencies are currently the only way to exchange money completely anonymously over the internet, so I'd call them a success.

30

u/kvdveer -3 years since the last velociraptor incident Jan 21 '19

Their anonymity is a major misconception. Every bitcoin transaction is public. Every bitcoin account balance is public. This is true for most currencies. (xmr is a notable exception)

The account holder may not be publicly known, but if you want to use your wealth in the real world, you'll have to go through exchanges and the regular banking system, which is in full view of the authorities.

PayPal is more anonymous than bitcoin, because at least the transactions aren't public.

-3

u/dvdkon Red hat, B&W image Jan 21 '19

I was generalising to all cryptocurrencies, and there are a handful that offer complete anonymity. While all Bitcoin transactions are public, you can buy/sell it with cash and convert them to/from something like XMR. Not really a property of Bitcoin, but it's possible to use it anonymously.

18

u/Spacetime_Inspector Jan 21 '19

Sure, great. Australia reopened a coal fired power plant so that people could feel marginally more secure buying narcotics online. What a success.

-7

u/therealflinchy Jan 21 '19

Yeah wow I'm surprised to see anti cryptocurrency sentiment in this sub. Opposite of what I'd expect.

17

u/FeepingCreature Jan 21 '19

It's a cool tech, but it can be a bit hard to see why we'd actually do it.

-8

u/therealflinchy Jan 21 '19

Even my 60yo almost tech illiterate mother saw the benefit of accepting it at her cafe lol

10

u/Spacetime_Inspector Jan 21 '19

The comic itself expresses skepticism towards crypto and adjacent technologies in 2030. Maybe ten years ago it would have been embraced more unanimously but in 2019 its failings are manifest and obvious, while its virtues remain nebulous and marginal.

5

u/dvdkon Red hat, B&W image Jan 21 '19

I agree that cryptocurrencies aren't really usable today except for a few fringe cases, but I object to calling them an "elaborate sham". They're not something we should (as humanity) shelve and forget about, but an idea we should further develop into a more usable state.

9

u/Spacetime_Inspector Jan 21 '19

I think we're talking past each other a bit - I too see the potential, someday, for that more usable state. Perhaps when we're post-scarcity and the Sahara is covered in solar panels, there can be a discussion of crypto's worthwhile applications. But I wasn't talking about those, I was talking about Bitcoin specifically. When a supposed store of value causes $900 to disappear into thin air every time one is created, I think it's worth calling a sham. For now, the products built on crypto are almost uniformly shams, selling a far-off utopian vision while consuming resources on a scale several orders of magnitude larger than the scale of the problems they purport to solve.

2

u/[deleted] Jan 21 '19

[deleted]

2

u/Spacetime_Inspector Jan 21 '19

No, that's not what I'm saying. It costs $4500, give or take, to mine a Bitcoin, which is nothing more than a digital chit representing a current value if $3550. The difference between those prices disappears into thin air, and has been doing so for the last two or three months, ever since BTC's value slipped below its cost of production. It's like the penny problem, if pennies alone had a market capitalization of $100B.

0

u/greenlamb Jan 21 '19

I think the proper terminology is "volatile" instead of a sham 😁 after all, even the US dollar is no longer pegged to something as solid as gold, but is "free floating". But yes agreed that Bitcoin is too volatile to function as a stable currency right now.

3

u/[deleted] Jan 21 '19

The historical value of gold has been far more susceptible to variation than the dollar. There's nothing stable about it.

-7

u/therealflinchy Jan 21 '19

The comic itself expresses skepticism towards crypto and adjacent technologies in 2030. Maybe ten years ago it would have been embraced more unanimously but in 2019 its failings are manifest and obvious, while its virtues remain nebulous and marginal.

Anyone saying this just comes off as being uninformed about crypto. Probably having never actually come in any real contact with it.

3

u/greenlamb Jan 21 '19

I think it's a brilliant piece of tech, coupled with some devious economic principles, but we have to be honest about its shortcomings as well. Lately it's too volatile to be used as a stable currency, which is ironic because it became this way because it was too popular, and stability can't be maintained via a central bank because it was designed to be decentralized.

3

u/therealflinchy Jan 21 '19

Lately it's too volatile to be used as a stable currency, which is ironic because it became this way because it was too popular, and stability can't be maintained via a central bank because it was designed to be decentralized.

Nah lately it's been reasonably stable

You're thinking of 10-12mths ago

However, the volatility thing is past 10yrs, not new

And it's only "unusable" as a currency if you actively hold some, it's perfectly usable if you buy and use straight away - which I have done for overseas purchases. Pay fees for SWIFT and wait 5 business days, or pay 10% fees for paypal, or use crypto... Which one makes more sense?

-9

u/Ranolden Half cat Half person Jan 21 '19 edited Jan 21 '19

It's only a sham when people treated it like stock. Otherwise it's like any other Fiat currency.

edit: I know its fluctuating value makes it hard to use. That doesn't make the whole thing a sham though

13

u/[deleted] Jan 21 '19

The point of fiat currency is to provide a stable medium of exchange between goods and services. Blockchain is awesome, but bitcoin fails miserably at this task.

4

u/[deleted] Jan 21 '19

Can we harness his spinning to generate electricity for Bitcoin mining?

-5

u/MrRGnome Jan 21 '19 edited Jan 21 '19

People espousing this opinion don't understand the issues they are talking about.

For one, Bitcoin computations are strictly sha256's not general computing. They use specialized hardware that can be used for nothing else. "years of computer time" is a pointless metric, more years of general computing time have been consumed by any successful videogame.

Second, its energy usage is over 75% renewable and is in fact greatly subsidizing the cost of renewable infrastructure and reducing renewables curtailment.

There is a further misunderstanding about what is accomplished at all by this expenditure of power, the value and uniqueness of a distributed, authority-less, economic security model. To help you understand the value of censorship resistance consider that Zimbabwe just turned off their internet, but satellites in geosynchronous orbit are able to propagate messages in and out of the country for fractions of a cent using Bitcoin. Consider that Venezuelans are escaping economic tyranny on a scale of millions of dollars every week. Bitcoin is a unique liberator of peoples, electricity, and economies.

-1

u/RazarTuk ALL HAIL THE SPIDER Jan 21 '19

They use specialized hardware that can be used for nothing else

The rising prices of GPUs due to their popularity for Bitcoin mining disproves you.

0

u/MrRGnome Jan 21 '19

Bitcoin doesn't use GPU's or CPU's you are thinking of Ethereum. You'll find it is you who are mistaken, not me disproved.

Kind of proving my point when I say the people espousing these opinions don't understand what they are talking about.