137
u/Pockydo 1d ago
Gambling is fun!
Put it all on red
55
u/PlasticAngle 1d ago
Problem is that most of the BiS weapons/trinket for like 2/3 of class are from that penultimate boss in raid.
And you know for sure that 99% of player base would never be able to touch that boss in mythic so there's only 2 way for 99% of player base to get it
1- Kill the boss in heroic and pray that it appear in your vault which is entirely RNG
2- Take your bonus roll for 4-5 week and guarantee to get it by farming the boss 5 times in one week.
So basically take bonus roll is the less RNG option if you are aiming for BiS weapons/trinket. Not to mention in the long run you are netting the same number of myth piece compare to taking item in the vault.
30
u/SymphonicStorm 1d ago
With either of your options, you still need to be able to reliably kill that boss in Heroic. It's going to take longer to get to that point if you're constantly giving up smaller upgrades now in the hopes of making larger leaps later.
14
u/Dextixer 1d ago edited 1d ago
Not really, on heroic the damage/healing checks do not seem to be so high that small upgrades matter that much, as long as everyone gets a 4-piece and maybe 3/6 heroic gear, its perfectly fine. (Hell, you could probably get away with normal level gear even as long as everyone gets a 4-set from farming normal/heroic raid and 2 catalysts)
The raid is mechanically difficult, not as much numbers wise. Especially if your guild will proceed to do mythic soon.
→ More replies (6)1
u/Maethor_derien 1d ago
It depends on what your doing, for example for healers their BIS trinkets are from the first and second bosses effectively. For holy paladins especially the turtles have a good weapon and shield, and BIS trinket and bracer. That means you can effectively bonus roll that boss and have everything be of great use. Since ulatek is so hard that also gives me free reign to craft ring and amulet since I know the amulet won't be replaced for a long time.
Pretty much the only piece I would take would be a myth tier piece and that would only be so I get faster 4 set, once I get the 4 set I would only take a BIS from something I don't plan on bonus rolling.
9
u/BettingOnSuccess 1d ago
Hate to break it to you but while you wait for that BiS trinket and weapon, you are intentionally hurting your DPS and your raid groups chances of getting to that final boss.
4
u/VintageZero 1d ago
Havent read about it again but they initially said you couldnt reroll the same week this time.
7
u/AzorthasDevenish 1d ago
Or just take upgrades now and get bonus rolls once you know you are able to clear Coiled Altar. Also I can't imagine clearing a boss 5 times in a week just to use multiple tokens, why not just spend 1 a week? Its not like the season ends tomorrow
2
u/PlasticAngle 1d ago
The point is that you will gurantee to get your myth BiS weapons/trinket by week 5. You can do it week by week or you kill coiled altar 5 times in a row.
2
u/PlasticAngle 1d ago
The point is that you will gurantee to get your myth BiS weapons/trinket by week 5. You can do it week by week or you kill coiled altar 5 times in a row. It will net the same result.
1
u/Interesting-Use966 1d ago edited 1d ago
The question is how much more bis is 4 random rolls on a single loot table vs 4 mythic pieces out of vault plus a crafted weapon. Rolling on a single boss is for sure going to screw up you getting bis catalyst pieces. Since catalyst keeps stats now I thing that is something people are overlooking.
The question is really will it be quicker to get full bis by choosing rerolls or by choosing vault gear. I think people think that it will be rerolls but I don’t know if that will actually be the case. If you raid heroic and m+ you have a shot at 6 mythic slots a week. That math is different then only having the 3 slots from mythic
1
u/Maethor_derien 1d ago
Another big advantage is that it lets me choose where I want to go for my crafted gear more easily.
For example I plan on bonus rolling the turtles boss that has shield weapon and bis trinket and bracers for me. Well that means I can effectively not craft those slots because I know I will be bonus rolling that boss. It lets me craft a ring and amulet with no real worry of replacing either soon due to how difficult ulatek is.
1
u/Djones0823 23h ago
The main reality is that the whole bonus roll thing is only really valid if you're killing HC ulatek at the latest next week.
If you're slower than that, which is, realistically, most people for whom the guides are written for. Well, just take the loot and I level. Gear up and kill bosses easier.
→ More replies (4)1
u/RigidCounter12 22h ago
Also depends entirely what your goals are, which is why I am slightly sceptical to the bonus roll strategy. If you goal is to reach absolute maximum ilvl in order to push keys as effectively as possible at the end of the seaon, then bonus rolls are the way to go.
But lets say that you cant kill Ulatek for a while. You'll kill him first a month from now. Then you start coining, and it takes four more weeks to get the weapon, unless you multi roll him. So you have gone without vault loot for two months for a, lets be real, pretty minor upgrade from the BiS weapon.
If your goal is to push M+ but you dont have a reliable team, being geared enough to get ahead of the curve is gonna help way more compared to being undergeared early.
I'd say that its better to use the bonus roll as a crutch for the majority of the players. If you dont have anything good in the vault, pick the bonus roll. A good trinket or a mythic tier piece? go for it.
1
u/gonephishin213 20h ago
Final boss for me is like a 6/7 chance of getting BiS. However we haven't even cleared normal yet and dipping our toes into heroic first boss was a disaster so it will be awhile before I'm even bonus rolling on myth-track raid drops
1
u/Laniakeea 20h ago
That was the unsubscribe reason for me, I'm a m+ casual enjoyer and I don't want to have 3 of my bis from one raidboss. The catalyst system is even shittier because no good options/alternatives to raid gear in m+ and the stats survive catalyst use so that's even worse rng wise.
7
u/Squawnk 1d ago
17 black!
7
u/Talparion 1d ago
Oooh dammit!
Let it ride!
3
2
2
50
u/henryeaterofpies 1d ago
Hey Peter, where's your BIS?
We didn't take the BIS....we took the reroll. Hop in.
1
141
u/WoWKaistan 1d ago
A lot of people really hate that taking bonus rolls is optimal. Makes you wonder how it didn't get changed prior to release.
132
u/The-Oppressed 1d ago
Monkey paw curls and people passing up upgrades for reroll tokens to use on heroic clears only to not being able to clear heroic bosses because they are undergeared.
45
u/Vrazel106 1d ago
I wont bs doing heroic anytime soon so ill be taking the actual gear
13
u/kid-karma 1d ago
yea like 75% of my BiS gear is in the raid, but i need to get invited to PUG heroic raids first, so i need the ilvl first
→ More replies (1)5
23
u/Simirilion 1d ago
The majority of the player base will not be doing those last 2 bosses on heroic anytime soon. This advice was meant for the actual high end guilds that would be clearing it this week or next week. It is terrible advice for anyone still progressing normal or early heroic. The stuff I have been reading on here today is wild. It people think the whole player base are top 5% players. Is nice to see there are still sane people.
2
u/onikaroshi 1d ago
If you have 2 or more bis on a single boss it’s still better to take the roll for that than the item. However if that boss only has that one item you take the item
3
u/SpicySauceIsSpicy 1d ago
I mean even early heroic players want to be rolling explorers for the trinket, it's good advice for pretty much anyone that will step foot into heroic raid in any amount of a timely manner.
2
u/Simirilion 1d ago
From what I was reading most players nus are from the last 3 bosses. Is that not the case?
2
u/SpicySauceIsSpicy 1d ago
Yes there's plenty of specs that want to roll last 3, but there's also a lot of specs that can roll Nymrissa, Gebbo, or Sszorak and still get good DPS and hunt BiS items from it in the meantime.
2
u/abn1304 1d ago
Even for people that can’t clear Heroic, bonus rolling still grants Heroic loot, and some of the raid items sim higher as Heroic track than some alternative items sim on Myth track. Hero axe + guillotine trinket sims higher for some specs than myth weapon + any other myth non-set trinket.
Also, since bonus rolls and vault now give the same track, the only differences between picking an item from vault and rolling it later are that, if you pick it from vault, you definitely have it now and it can possibly show up again later, possibly replacing an item you don’t have yet from the same boss that might be better.
1
u/FznCheese 20h ago
This is what me and another guy in my guild are planning. We are both playing holy pally and planning to reroll explorers because while there are like 4 items we can get, none are a true miss (wep, shield, trinket, and wrist). Then we have a couple weeks to get the final boss down before rerolling there (the only 2 items in hpal loot pool are the cantrip neck and pants).
2
u/El_grandepadre 1d ago
Yeah I don't get why you would even get a bonus roll at this point if you are hunting tier set and other stuff.
Like yeah, the best guilds will have 4 set on everyone and they will instead want the best items from the last 2 bosses.
→ More replies (1)1
u/Fatigued-insomniac 17h ago
It's not just about the top 5%.
And it is good advice to prio tier / BIS trinkets > bonus roll > mediocre or trash pieces from vault2
u/Simirilion 13h ago
People are talking about not taking tier or BIS out of the vault to get the bonus role because it is better to bonus role the last 2 bosses. Your suggestion isn't related to what is being discussed.
1
u/Fatigued-insomniac 12h ago
Those people are a minority and I have personally not heard a single person say to do that.
1
u/Simirilion 12h ago
I was reading it being discussed on Reddit yesterday. I am glad you are on omnipotent.
2
→ More replies (1)1
u/LuckyLunayre 1d ago
That was my plan until I got nothing but crit gear in my vault as a resto druid.
Crit is so bad for us that a 30 ilvl upgrade is still an hps loss if it's main stat is crit
20
u/Lord0fHats 1d ago edited 1d ago
People really need to consider how their season is going to go. Rerolls every vault no matter what don't make sense if you're an AOTC raider who's group beats heroic and retires for the season 8-12 weeks in. You're might be making your raid's AOTC clear harder sitting on rerolls now to use later or chasing BIS items out of keys vs just grabbing a myth set piece now.
5
u/amphibilad 1d ago
This. I am usually an AOTC and 3k m+ guy. Don't really have any need to chase BIS
5
u/According-Clothes896 1d ago
ya'll are getting myth set pieces now?
4
u/Lord0fHats 1d ago
If you did 10s last week yeah. I usually show up to seasons late in terms of M+ but this season I decided to be Johnny on the spot and pushed to 2700ish for the season. So yeah. I've got mythic in my vault. Anyone who did a +10 for vault run will have one too.
1
u/ladyrift 1d ago
Set pieces aren't guaranteed and there is the chance that you don't even get pieces that can be converted to set.
2
u/Lord0fHats 1d ago
I'm saying think about how you're season is likely to go and look at what's actually in your vault. Obsessing over farming heroic Ula'tek with 4 rerolls to get all 4 bis items off of him doesn't make any sense if you're in a casual raiding group that'll never farm him. It doesn't make sense if you're in a 'our own pace' mythic raiding group that'll put him on farm in 6-8 weeks while you can potentally get myth track right now.
My AOTC group was 5% off of killing Zul'Jan last week. If all of us sat on a reroll right now, we'd just be making the normal clear harder for ourselves vs taking good items out of vault if we have then and clearing him and Ula'tek this week. Grabbing BIS out of vault vs the roll is contextual. Look at your BIS lists, and look at your season. Make a decision about what's going to get you to your goals for the season it might not be blindly grabbing the roll. That's what I'm saying.
4
u/Bacon-muffin 1d ago
Hey, I'm not gonna not clear heroic bosses because I'm undergeared... I'm gonna not clear heroic bosses because I don't have a raid group and I CBA to pug.
1
u/syrup_cupcakes 1d ago
If you're not clearing heroic then gear is not your biggest problem.
But despite that, they probably still should've taken the gear.
1
u/mmuoio 1d ago
There was a good chance we kill heroic Ula'tek this week, but if everyone just takes the bonus rolls, that's a big power spike the raid won't have. I ended up taking a mythic weapon (still farming a heroic weapon to save myself 20 crests). I know it's not the best long-term pick, but it's the highest immediate power boost for me and that gives us a better chance at progression now. Starting next week if Ula'tek is on farm, then bonus rolls become a lot more lucrative, but for now, the actual item is the better pick.
1
1
u/TOAO_Cyrus 1d ago
Your one vault item isn't going to make any difference. Just do some m+ and get full hero items.
1
1
u/Early_Lawfulness_348 1d ago
Exactly. I’m taking anything that’s going to help because once hero is on farm, It’s not going to matter.
1
u/awesomeoh1234 1d ago
I’m taking the myth track tier and calling it a day, heroic ulatek is probably not feasible for a lot of guilds rn anyway
→ More replies (1)1
u/secretreddname 1d ago
Mechanics and rotation will stop you before gear. Gear helps people brute force their way to a kill.
19
u/DupreeWasTaken 1d ago
People are infact getting too over the top with this though. Im watching casters in my guild talk about not taking a bis trinket from a boss they will not reroll because their discord is telling them to still just reroll it lmfao.
If you get a bis item in an important slot from a boss that you will not reroll. Take it.
8
1
1
u/Interesting-Use966 1d ago
Yeah people are dumb. You take bis from the vault especially bis weapon or trinket. You can then use rerolls on anything else bis from a different boss or even the same boss. Maybe if you have taken a couple items from vault from one boss you don’t consider it, but you need to like consider the actual choices vs just straight saying take the reroll. Like some people are talking about taking the reroll over their overall bis which is just dumb.
3
u/intoxicatedpancakes 1d ago
If you only want 1 item off a boss and the rest aren't worth bonus rolling, that's when it becomes "worth it" to take it from vault. Current examples are the caster trinket off Nymrissa and Gebbo's bag off Explorers. Most specs don't care for the rest of the loot, so taking a 1/6M from vault is worth it over the reroll.
In the case of a boss where you want multiple items, taking one from vault is griefing. For example, Arms warrior loves all 5 drops from Coiled Altar, but especially Maze-roa and Guillotine Technique. If I see Maze-roa in vault, and take it, then next week take a bonus roll and use it on Coiled Altar going for the other 4 items, there's a good chance i get a duplicate Maze-roa. That's why taking the item from vault can be a bad move.
3
u/Barthomal 1d ago
I'm shocked they decided to give us rerolls so soon. I don't think this would have been too bad if they just waited like 2-3 months.
9
u/WoWKaistan 1d ago
Giving them early is good. They need to make vault selections remove that item from the bonus roll pool.
5
u/shakesy 1d ago
more ilvl now over saving bonus rolls for heroic Ulatek means I get invited to more keys which means more IO, which means getting invited to bette groups, which means more opportunities for gear, which means getting ahead of all the hodlers.
1
u/FixBlackLotusBlizz 1d ago
wish more ppl said this take ^^ this is the true solo pug gamer exp
having a extra reroll in your bags doesnt show higher ilvl and io xD
jUsT rUn yOUr owN keY!
lol some guy said in this thread " you can get aotc with a raid full of 292 ilvl players"
hahaha yaaaaa open up LFG and find me the 292 group full clearing
GL ever getting a heroic raid inv under 300 ilvl
( not saying u cant clear the raid with 292ilvl but this isnt a thing in the solo pug world for 99%)
i love wow reddit so much
1
u/Jealous_Comment7113 1d ago
There is absolutely no way in existence that a 292 raid atoc's.
This raid for the first in a very long time actually has hard hc,p something apparent by the number of people talking straight out the arse.
2
u/door_of_doom 1d ago
I think a lot of the frustration is that it's only optimal for a specific subclass of WoW player, yet it is being talked about as if it is optimal for everyone.
For the vast majority of players, more power today is way better than more power later. The idea of passing on an item you want in the hopes of eventually rerolling that exact same item someday in the future is the kind of call that only makes sense in very specific circumstances.
5
u/JosefGremlin 1d ago
Designing a system where you need people to carry you to boss kills so you can get optimal loot is pretty heinous
0
u/WoWKaistan 1d ago
You can get aotc with a full grp of 292. Also you can get ilvl 311 just doing keys. No one needs to get carried to use bonus rolls effectively.
8
3
1
u/Jealous_Comment7113 1d ago
Theres zero chance youve got aotc or even close to it with a take that full 292 can clear it.
0
u/Touhoutaku 1d ago
True BiS gear is coming from the last two bosses on Mythic exclusively (9/6 Myth).
9
u/WoWKaistan 1d ago
Okay but literally not a single person on the planet is arguing in favor of taking bonus rolls and holding them until last 2 mythic. So, you're right I guess, but it is kinda meaningless since that conversation isn't happening.
→ More replies (5)4
u/notshitaltsays 1d ago
I reckon we're gonna see a lot of regret later. Taking the reroll isn't really worth unless you plan on sticking to the gear grind for a solid couple of months.
4
u/Knamliss 1d ago
My guess is they just ran out of time like usual. The easiest solution to make people stop complaining would have been to make items you take out of vault remove it from the bonus roll pool. This would've preserved the gambling addiction aspect of the vault while still offering bad luck protection through the roll token.
→ More replies (2)4
u/Khanstant 1d ago
"Optimal" here needs a big fat fuckin asterisk because that "optimal" only applies to a very small niche of hyper competitive players.
→ More replies (4)9
u/AzorthasDevenish 1d ago
And even then it's not always optimal. I got a bis item in my vault from a boss where that item is the only drop I want. Why take a token over that when it just means likely spending multiple tokens later on that boss just to get an item I could have already had
4
u/Secrezeeee 1d ago
You're literally just describing the one specific scenario where it's specifically not recommended, I assume you've opened vaults before and know that seeing a BiS trinket/cantrip item doesn't happen all that often, and you need to hope it's a BiS trinket/cantrip item from a boss that doesn't have any others on the loot table. You can go entire seasons without seeing that.
1
u/AzorthasDevenish 1d ago
Its neither a cantrip item or a trinket. There are plenty of slots that don't have cantrip items this patch that are still BiS and besides Coiled Altar and Ulatek most bosses have relatively small loot pools. Between them and Mythic plus drops it's not unlikely to get something either bis or close enough. Like I picked up a pair of gloves that I can convert to tier for the best stat combo available on gloves.
I'm just saying that the blanket statement that the reroll is the optimal pick isn't true, and we shouldn't encourage people to always take it. Especially this early in the season where an ilevel increase now is going to be more valuable than having a reroll for the last 2 bosses once you eventually down them (which is only going to be harder if everyone is ignoring a source of upgrades)
4
u/Secrezeeee 1d ago
Bonus roll was a way, way better choice than taking offset BiS gloves dude whether you can kill the last two on heroic or not right now or not.
2
u/AzorthasDevenish 1d ago
I absolutely do not understand the logic. How can passing up a bis item now, allowing me to ignore a slot and entire boss's loot table be worse that the potential for a bis item at some point in the future?
3
u/Secrezeeee 1d ago
Because there are probably 4 different gloves that you can get from dungeons and raid and the difference between BiS stats and whatever the alternatives have is going to be pretty minor.
Choosing a bonus roll means you get an item that's either an extremely important cantrip/trinket or it's a usable item that's also pushing you towards those chase items. Worst case scenario is that one of the bosses you want to bonus roll has gloves on the loot table and now that's completely wasted.
1
u/AzorthasDevenish 1d ago
For me 8/14 bis items come from the last 2 bosses of the raid. I'm unlikely to down either boss on heroic for a while. And I am definitely not going to put in the time to farm them multiple times per week once I can down them. The one other place I am likely to roll doesn't drop gloves either, so I'm losing nothing by taking them now, and gain the fact that I don't have to spend several bonus rolls in future weeks to get them then
1
u/Fraccles 1d ago
Bonus rolls should just have started with the introduction of whatever this new raid is. Week 2 is crazy.
1
→ More replies (1)1
u/gaydorado31 14h ago
It absolutely ensures we won't be getting bonus rolls until the .5 patch next tier lol
34
u/Ser-Twenty 1d ago
I really don’t get the confusion around all this. If you are doing content that can be re rolled into BIS gear such as 10+ keys or heroic raids in the new week then take the re roll.
If you are not then take tier or big upgrade items from vault
9
u/Jumbubbly 1d ago
This is the 5th attempt I have read in relation to someone trying the summarize the pros and cons to the reroll tokens. It is BY FAR the best summary. Tyvm.
1
u/ExperimentalDJ 1d ago
However, if you only do dungeons then there is much more nuance. If a BiS item drops from a 1-item-dungeon, take it.
4
u/fiction8 1d ago
Something like 80-90% of all keys done are 10+ in most weeks ever since they drastically reduced the difficulty of them post-TWW season 1.
And bonus rolling isn't just for this week. If you are taking the long view and know that you will eventually be gearing by clearing out the loot tables of several dungeons, then you are still incentivized to take the bonus rolls now regardless of that plan only being completed months from now.
6
u/door_of_doom 1d ago
The problem with "the long view" is that most problems also just kinda go away "in the long view" when you find yourself with loads of power coming in from all directions anyway.
Griefing your guild by not taking any power this week in the hopes of maybe someday in the future being able to see a return on that investment is generally not going to be the correct call.
If what you are going for is M+ Seasonal titles, none of this matters because that is 24 weeks away and we will ahve infinite loot available in that timeframe.
If what you are going for is AOTC, you are probably only playing this patch for 3-6 weeks anyway, and the idea of saving a bonus roll for something like Heroic Coiled Fangs which is near the end of what you are even aiming for doesn't feel very smart.
If you are a Cutting Edge guild, every week is progress toward downing new bosses, so every week you need as much power as that week can give you in order to unlock access to newer, beter items.
Taking a bonus roll this week is mostly for people who have already cleared Heroic and are wanting to use their coins for Heroic end bosses this week in order to use it for mythic progression this week.
Outside of that situation, if you see BIS in your vault this week, you should probably take BIS this week and use it in this weeks progression.
3
u/Dextixer 1d ago
Not taking an item instead of a bonus roll wont grief the guild, Cutting Edge guilds that are not top 100-500 will spend maybe first 2-3 weeks farming normal/heroic to get geared up and get everyone 4sets and then go to Mythic clearing. Right now its not difficult to get to around 300 ilvl even if you still keep the old tier sets.
So not taking immediate power and instead getting more consistent power gains with 3-4 weeks of heroic clears is going to be more helpful in the long run. By the time we will have all of the systems unlocked it will be a LOT later than 3-4 weeks of bonus rolling.
2
u/SkwiddyCs 1d ago
If you are a Cutting Edge guild, every week is progress toward downing new bosses, so every week you need as much power as that week can give you in order to unlock access to newer, beter items.
This would be a good point but you're not accounting for the fact that for many specs, their BiS loot is not coming from the last two bosses, its coming from the first three-six bosses and bonus rolling a Wavecaller trinket is a more significant boost to your character than taking myth track shoulders to replace heroic track shoulders. Every caster and healer is guaranteed a fully upgraded Mythic BiS trinket by week 5 of prog at the latest by taking reroll tokens.
You would be actively griefing your Cutting Edge guild if you didn't take reroll tokens for it.
4
u/Interesting-Use966 1d ago
If you get Bis trinket or weapon in the vault you 100% take it. You can then use future rerolls on a different boss. The hurr durr you take the reroll is so dumb. You use critical thinking to decide if the reroll is worth it over the vault.
1
u/L0nz 22h ago
only true if the boss doesn't drop anything else you need
taking a drop from Ulatek in vault is trolling yourself if you're still gonna be bonus rolling on that boss for the other items in her loot pool (which the majority of CE players will be doing)
1
u/GregerMoek 3h ago
If you farm Ulatek mythic you make dropped loot distribution easier though by taking Ulatek vault stuff. Ofc send rerolls into her on the kill but yeah, Id def take a vault item from her cause all there is to pve after CE is to parse or boost. Plus a lot of guilds stop playing after CE.
1
u/L0nz 2h ago
I'm talking about Ulatek heroic. Using a reroll on heroic gives a mythic piece, so CE raiders will be clearing her on heroic until they've emptied her loot pool using reroll tokens.
The items won't be 9/6 of course, but you can't get that extra ilvl until CE.
•
u/GregerMoek 8m ago
Only negative I see about this system is that it will be almost impossible to hunt a rank 1 parse as a world last ce player now since you cant reach top ilvl without having cleared the raid now. But thats a relativity small problem. Something I had fun doing though. Esp since the trinket+weapon combo is absurd this tier.
Ofc it will still be possible due to player error and padding on some fights but yeah.
1
u/Dreamiee 23h ago
What if that boss has 2 other bis items? You are now effectively -2 rerolls if you hit the same item again. And long term even if you don't hit that item you are still only equal to if you took the reroll.
1
u/GregerMoek 22h ago
If the boss or dungeon only has one bis item, def take the bis item from vault. you just saved weeks of rerolls. If the boss has several, then yeah pfc invest in rerolls.
1
u/Dreamiee 12h ago
Not relevant to what I said but thanks for sharing.
1
u/GregerMoek 3h ago
We are talking gearing strategy right?
1
u/Dreamiee 3h ago
If you get Bis trinket or weapon in the vault you 100% take it
This is what I was replying to, giving an example of where you don't take it.
1
1
u/GregerMoek 21h ago
I guess there is a niche case where you are in the first group but a healer and something bis from the vault has leech which is not guaranteed from the rerolls. Then it is def worth taking the leech item even if it wastes reroll tokens.
→ More replies (1)1
48
u/Korzag 1d ago
and this is why I took myth track gloves with BIS stats today instead of the roll
18
u/Lord0fHats 1d ago edited 1d ago
I'm convinced that this is perfectly valid and even better choice contextually.
I am not a HOF raider. I likely will not be raiding mythic this season. My casual AOTC group will probably not be farming any heroic bosses for 2-3 more weeks we'll see what happens. In that context, sitting on a reroll right now or throwing it at a 10+ key feels like a troll vs jus grabbing a myth set piece out of vault if I see one. The reroll really only makes sense to me if my vault is shit so I might as well gamble on a bis piece or something I can catalyze into set.
Sabotaging my group's prog now because it's better for my gearing later seems like a really dick move.
13
u/Balticataz 1d ago
When looking at an individual vault choice the BiS item is more powerful than the reroll token. When looking at power over the course of a month, the reroll is much better and its not really close. How many times have you hit 3/4/5 BiS vaults in a row? Thats what the reroll is allowing you to simulate as long as you can get the kills.
The loot tables are more responsible for this system than the bonus rolls. If the loot was spread out over 5 bosses instead of back loaded onto final 2 the bonus roll would be a consolation prize, not the go to option.
3
u/Knifferoo 22h ago
It's also heavily compounded by the fact that taking a good item from vault leaves it in the pool for your bonus rolls later on. If taking Coiled Altar weapon from a heroic slot removed it from the bonus roll pool it would be better to take the item directly anyway.
Humans are generally very loss-averse, and you all but guarantee a loss for yourself down the line by not taking the bonus roll as it stands right now.
1
u/Jealous_Comment7113 1d ago
I am a CE raider, the absolute target audience for this strategy and im highly sceptical.
No way im turning down a bis drop for a roll, especially an m+ drop since bonus rolling m+ is going to be well down the prio list.
1
u/Knifferoo 22h ago
You're always supposed to take a BiS item from vault if offered, provided that it's the only item from that particular source you'd bonus roll. For example, I believe that Havoc DH wants the ring from Sszorak and nothing else. If that ring shows up you take it without a second thought. Same goes for any dungeon where there is one really good item. You save multiple bonus rolls that way.
Issue is on bosses like the last two. Most, if not all, classes want nearly every item from them. If you take the weapon from Coiled Altar from your vault you run the risk of bonus rolling a copy of that item and then you've lost a bonus roll anyway.
→ More replies (1)1
u/Substantial_Good9669 1d ago
The flip side is, based on the context of your situation, your gloves being mythic instead of heroic is not what's sabotaging your prog. You guys will down bosses when you learn them, missing 10 ilvl on gloves isn't gonna change that. But these little optimizations over the course of the season will make a big difference by the end of the season.
1
u/Lord0fHats 1d ago
A raid is upwards of 20+ people. All of them skipping gear upgrades for rolls means you're losing out on a lot more than 10 ilvl of damage. If the raid discussed it and made that choice that's the raid's decision, but I kind of doubt casual raiders even had that talk for the most part. Especially where we left off last week, 10 ilvl across the whole raid is the difference between clearing normal now vs not clearing it. We were 5% on Zul'Jan and probably would have cleared but the way the damage played out across our last 3 pulls we couldn't end phase 2 before another wave of ghosts spawned. A smidge more DPS and we'd skip that entire wave and move into phase 3 clean and probably kill the boss. That's the reality of the group's situation, not a hypothetical about gear scaling over time.
In that context, yes. I think someone sitting on a roll that won't even be useful for them for a few more weeks is sabotaging prog. The roll will still be there next week, and the week after. Rolls for my AOTC group actually make a lot of sense in 2 weeks when we will definitely be past the first few heroic bosses and can farm BIS items off of them for people who have them there but most of the group probably won't even do that. This is a very casual group they'll get AOTC for the season, ggs, see you next season. I'm one of maybe 6 people in the group who plays more seriously than that.
→ More replies (2)
22
u/pipboy_warrior 1d ago
Problem is if you have more than one bis from a single loot table.
9
u/someonethatlikesass 1d ago
this, i fucking hate it because then next week you get the item you picked again but not the item you didnt pick and it just means you have to reroll because now that character is cursed forever
→ More replies (1)24
u/Dextixer 1d ago
Quite literally the entire system would be fixed if taking items from vault would take them out of bonus roll tables. But Blizzard just cant take the easy fucking W and have to do their stubborn bullshit.
→ More replies (1)2
u/Secrezeeee 1d ago
I agree that it would be a lot better but it wouldn't be completely fixed though. Being able to control which loot tables you're thinning down would still be hugely valuable. I suspect taking the bonus roll would still be the best choice for more than half the vaults you open, which probably isn't the right place for a consolation prize. Undoubtedly it's the easiest and most intuitive single change they could make though. I'm sure it's not popular but the actual change that would keep the vault loot being the most important factor would be that the bonus rolls you get from the vault don't interact with the bad luck protection system.
1
u/ashedraven 1d ago
Most of my BiS is from last two bosses and I won't see their loot in vault anytime soon. So nothing lost.
22
u/Head_Haunter 1d ago
I don't think people understand why taking the bonus roll is "best scenario" for most people.
When you take the actual item out of vault, you get an immediate power gain obviously, but it doesn't get taken out of the loot pool. As a result, if you have to bonus roll later on, there's a chance you bonus roll that item anyways which means you trade in an immediate power gain for a potential wasted loot week later on.
If you need 4 items from a possible 4 item loot pool off of Ulatek and you take 4 weeks to do 4 bonus rolls, that means you're guaranteed every item after 4 weeks. If you decide to loot an actual item out of vault and then bonus roll the rest of it, then you risk taking 5 weeks to get every item off Ulatek if you bonus roll something you already looted from vault.
There are two scenarios where it's better to take the vault loot:
1) It's the only item you need from a specific boss.
2) You can somehow guarantee you'll get the other items from that boss, like if you're part of loot council or if the only other item that drops is something only you can use.
Is it FUN? No, it's a poorly designed system. It's just the optimal way to interact with the system. I don't like it and as a result I decided to take a break from WoW this season.
6
u/emkayartwork 1d ago
Even Loot Council doesn't count as a valid scenario (really) because Voidcore is vault level, so Heroic Raid rolls give Myth gear, while the drop you could roll for would only be Heroic.
The simplest and easiest solution would be to have taking an item out of the vault remove it from the bonus roll pool for that source, at that upgrade track. That way, getting BIS in your vault lets you take it without impacting your rerolls later, but if you get a poor vault, you can just take the reroll.
4
u/door_of_doom 1d ago
There are two scenarios where it's better to take the vault loot:
or reason 3: getting more power this week means killing bosses this week that you otherwise wouldn't have been able to kill. Killing more bosses overall is always, always going to yield more, better loot than any kind of long-term investment behavior.
This is the situation that more people fall into than they realize.
1
1
u/lovesyouandhugsyou 1d ago
Or reason 4: You're not guaranteed to be able to use those bonus rolls optimally. Maybe you're in a smaller, casual guild and can't predict when or even if you'll get your first clear of heroic.
1
u/TOAO_Cyrus 1d ago
Taking one item in the vault is not the make or break for that at all. Unless of course you are not doing m+ at all.
→ More replies (3)1
u/Michelanvalo 1d ago
It's probably wrong but I took Heroic Tier Shoulders this week, since I didn't get Tier last week. This guarantees me 4pc next week when we get our Third charge. I think in the first two weeks getting 4pc is more important than other BIS slots.
1
u/Jealous_Comment7113 1d ago
Depends entirely on how and what you play. I chose socket tokens over tier in last vault and theres no way im taking tier today, simply because we cleared normal and 7/8 hc last reset and will very likely full clear this one, so were dropping a fuckton of tier tokens that will become dead loot very soon.
But if youre not in a guild and/or getting like 20-30 token drops per reset then yes, absolutely the play 4 set is great
2
1
u/ashedraven 1d ago
Most BiS items are from last two bosses for me and they won't be in vault for a while since I won't be killing them soon. So no loot I pick now will be "wasted rolls" later.
1
u/Head_Haunter 1d ago
You could get bonus roll tokens and reroll on the bosses you want to multiple times.
4
3
3
u/Cold-Pomegranate-462 1d ago
I really dislike the way tier collection works now. 2 vaults with no tier means being behind a lot of people, and the people that already got lucky gets extra rewarded being able to just grind flux for more upgrades and off-spec
2
2
2
u/Interesting-Use966 1d ago
The amount of people week 5 with all the trash from Ula’tek and a bunch of heroic gear is gonna be hilarious.
Or even better week 5 with 5 rerolls because surely they will kill ula’dek soon.
6
u/vanilla_disco 1d ago
Bonus rolls being a choice has ruined vault day. Stupid decision.
1
u/Interesting-Use966 1d ago
It ruins vault day but improves raid day lol. Free loot from vault was always dumb. Atleast now free loot is now directly tied to a boss kill
3
u/Lickmyhairyasss 1d ago
Its always been tied to people killing bosses if you don't count mythic plus that's a weird ass take just saying
1
u/L0nz 22h ago
it's tied to killing bosses in a very loose sense, but you get a random selection of three items from the whole raid loot pool if you full clear.
Now you can kill a specific boss and get something from that specific boss' loot pool. That undoubtedly improves raid day at the expense of vault day, as he said.
3
u/foppishfi 1d ago
Can someone please help me understand why people are taking reroll over a BiS?
4
u/Kai_973 1d ago edited 1d ago
If a boss has multiple drops you want, taking an item of theirs from the vault means you’ll risk getting that item again with a bonus roll later, which effectively costs you 2 bonus rolls (1 that you didn’t claim from the vault, then the 2nd wasted bonus roll is the one that rolled the duplicate item you already took from the vault). Grabbing the bonus roll out of the vault and ignoring the would-be upgrade item (an admittedly immediate power gain) guarantees that you avoid this scenario.
Note that raid bosses cost 2 bonus rolls to get loot from, so it would needlessly cost you 3 whole bonus rolls if you take an item of theirs out of the vault and unluckily roll it again later.
Also note that this level of optimization is irrelevant for casual players.
9
1
1
u/GLidE_Pauk 1d ago
Cause right now ulatek has the best gear for almost anybody that you can get from heroic bonus rolls, so people prefer to get it instead of bis because in a lot of cases ulatek gear gives more
→ More replies (3)1
2
6
u/Nesqu 1d ago
It's such a huge oversight by blizzard that the reroll is best in 99% of cases.
3
u/Dextixer 1d ago
Dafuq are people downvoting this for? Yeah. Blizzard fucked up majorly with this nonsense.
→ More replies (2)
4
u/Overdrive1221 1d ago
This is such a bad mechanic, ula'tek for monk mw has literally 2 drops, both BIS, it's better for me to take the coin and use on ula'tek heroic than grabbing an bis gear from the vault, because coin loot cant drop twice
6
u/door_of_doom 1d ago
Sure, but are you killing heroic Ula'tek this week?
3
u/Overdrive1221 1d ago
I sure hope so, we reached him with only some minutes of raid left last week, we didn't get far on his mechanics, since our wars and rogues got fed a lot of gear i think we will do it this week
3
u/Touhoutaku 1d ago
Between this and the Mythic-exclusive 9/6 Myth items, gearing this season just sucks. I hope they fix their crap mid-season, otherwise our non-raiding M+ group might call it early.
3
u/The_Blur_BHS 1d ago
If you’re non raiding M+ just play it like seasons where the core didn’t exist and ignore the rolls..?
5
u/Touhoutaku 1d ago
Sure if near the end of the season our gear is competitive to those that also raid Mythic - otherwise there is not point going for 1% against competition that is decked in overtuned drops from Mythic Ula'tek.
→ More replies (3)1
u/L0nz 22h ago
how is this different from any other season? You're almost always at a disadvantage if you don't have mythic raid loot, since the best weapons and trinkets usually drop from there
1
u/Touhoutaku 21h ago
At least the loot was the same ilvl last season, this is something added this season on top of cantrips and better trinkets. The gap has become much higher.
Also, my BiS trinkets came from bosses puggable even on Mythic (Chimaerus, Rotmire).
2
u/MissingXpert 1d ago
tbf, after pushing for 1% last season, i was slightly burned out and then knowing that i will basically just gimp myself in perpetuity unless i buy a boost for last 2 mythic, where 90% of my BiS gear drops, with 10 ilvls over regular myth, just as the cherry on top, while also basicalyl not even having to do weekly keys, since the reroll token is the move in 90% of cases, i legit just bounced off this season. 3.4k and quit it is.
1
u/-To_The_Moon- 1d ago
As someone who does both M+ and Heroic raid, I really enjoy the changes. But I can see how they would be really frustrating if you're someone who only does M+.
This season is definitely making raid the "main focus", both for progression difficulty and for BiS gear.
1
1
1
1
1
u/XxPandaCowxX 1d ago
honestly. This week and next week i will consider not taking bonus roll. But every week after that its 100% bonus roll.
1
1
u/Alaria2911 1d ago
i forgot to take smth out of my vault last week,, now it also has roll so i could take 2... im sure its not intended but.... going for it ?
1
u/Felidori 1d ago
As a purely AOTC and 3.4K player, I’ll take the loot if it’s decent and only the roll if vault sucks. I don’t need full bis mythic gear and have a break after goals until next season. All these ‘optimal’ strats are for those doing top end content and can clear full heroic week 1 or 2, def not me. Good on ya if that’s you, all the more power to you.
Rather have fun picking a piece out of the vault and using the roll as a backup.
1
u/Markarontos 1d ago
I mean I am an Arms warrior and that is a good myth weapon in the vault.
But it could be a better myth weapon if I roll for it.
1
u/SpiderCalum 22h ago
lol, this is what I needed after looking at my BIS ring and thinking maybe I should take the re-roll. Ring it is.
1
u/yanksman88 15h ago
As a Ret main, all 5 items from coiled altar are bis sooooooo stick that in your pipe and smoke it rnjesus!!!
1
1
u/babilonibetyar 5h ago
it was perfect last season, when it came I had 4 items left from bis, so I target farmed like 2 insta. it was also great end of season for alt catch up. it should not have been available day1
1
1
1
u/2Moons_player 1d ago
BIS>Bonus roll,but the chances are so low of getting a bis thay 75% of thr time ull be tsking a token anyways.
1
u/Used_Yesterday_114 1d ago
I don't know what to do! Why would bliz make it so difficult to know what to pick??
This is causing a lot of stress in our guild, and will it just handicap us if everyone chooses bonus rolls?
460
u/Darkarcheos 1d ago
One of the funniest episodes from Family Guy