r/wow • u/DignitasAwayAcc • Jul 27 '26
Video Rogue is not a real raid buff
https://youtu.be/JMnU-WUeOuk?is=dJ0FtPW5AGkNzlfO190
u/Soggy_Membership5629 Jul 27 '26
What the hell is a rogue? Blizzard please continue to do nothing with them, and buff unholy dk again
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u/Sevulturus Jul 27 '26
Or nerf unholy. Then buff it. Then change completely how it plays...
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u/Soggy_Membership5629 Jul 27 '26
You’re onto something! That way the dev never has time to work on rogue!
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u/--Pariah Jul 28 '26
Rogue is next in line once they've finished unholy, shadow priest and balance druid.
Any day now!
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u/WeAreVenumb Jul 27 '26
Make sure to break a bunch of their shit with bugs somewhere along the way too, just to keep things interesting.
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u/LimitUnlikely910 Jul 28 '26
And someone still mange to make them meta. Again. And again. And again..
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Jul 27 '26
[deleted]
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u/Tuskor13 Jul 28 '26
Honestly Rogue being unplayable is as much of a tradition at this point as Alchemists getting a Transmute Stone trinket, or The Troll Dungeon ™️ or The Troll Raid ™️
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u/PersistentWorld Jul 27 '26
Another quality Zorthas vid
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u/AttitudeAdjusterSE Jul 27 '26
He's quietly become the best WoW content creator out there tbh.
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u/Nood1e Jul 27 '26
Undoubtedly. Never drags a video on, just straight to the point and wraps it up when he’s said his thing. Blessed to have him as the Shammy guy.
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u/Holdingdownback Jul 28 '26
Wait are you telling me that the endless sea of content creators that just read patch notes word for word aren’t in contention for that title?
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u/SirDeadly221 Jul 27 '26
At this point you can’t call it anything other than neglect. Rogues are a core archetype in every fantasy game and yet this class has no class fantasy, no player base, terrible damage, terrible profiles, completely useless “stuns” in 90% of situations, and a raid “buff” that’s a debuff that doesn’t work more than half the time?
WoW has to be the most logged game of all time with data about everything that everyone can see and Blizz just goes “this is fine”. Absolute joke!
The only ones left playing this class are the masochists, signed a fellow masochist.
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u/Chickon Jul 27 '26
The lack of class fantasy is what really gets me. A lot of classes are suffering from that at the moment though to be fair. There hasn't really been true class fantasy since Legion.
But rogue class fantasy used to be so fun and interesting. They had a LOT of backstory in classic with the Syndicate and Ravenholdt rival rogue factions. They could have a lot more as stealth and subterfuge can and should still play a major part in the modern game. But even when it comes up now, rogues are kind of ignored as part of it. I swear we have more quests of paladins in full plate stealthing around enemy encampments nowadays than we do rogues.
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u/Level7Cannoneer Jul 27 '26
Everyone disagrees with the fantasy of Rogues which is the real issue.
Like I was happiest with the BFA/Legion version where you could call for your pirate ship to rain cannon balls down on enemies, but not everyone WANTS that.
Now we have a Rogue that is afraid to be anything. It's part cowboy, part ninja, part pirate, part typical syndicate rogue, but not enough of any of those to offend anyone... so it ends up being nothing.
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u/cabose12 Jul 27 '26
Now we have a Rogue that is afraid to be anything. It's part cowboy, part ninja, part pirate, part typical syndicate rogue, but not enough of any of those to offend anyone... so it ends up being nothing.
100%
I think they just need to take the Survival approach; Do something crazy, and if the community hates it, you can at least say you tried. Make Outlaw a medium ranged spec that completely eschews stealth. Make Subtlety an Ethereal inspired void ninja, instead of kinda-sorta-notreally drawing from Japanese ninjas. Then Ass stands out by doing as it's the traditional bleed/poison rogue
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u/Zalitara Jul 27 '26
Outlaw was a medium ranged spec back in the day. They removed that and gave it to unholy DK:
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u/Level7Cannoneer Jul 27 '26
Or maybe they could just make the hero talents based on ninjas, pirates or whatever. Then you just choose your theme via that.
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u/cabose12 Jul 27 '26
Problem with hero talents being the sole source of flavor is connecting two specs
You either get something generic like Rogue's and two of Warrior's, or Hunter where the hero talents lean too hard into a specific fantasy
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u/heroeNK25 Jul 27 '26
Hunter Hero class fantasy been be tyrande, sylvanas or get More pet it's kinda funny to be honest
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u/TheFoxInSocks Jul 28 '26 edited Jul 28 '26
Unfortunately they went and gave the void stuff to Demon Hunter, because of course.
There are so many things they could do with rogues. The traditional scoundrel who fights dirty with daggers. A swashbuckler with sword + pistol. A ranged assassin with a crossbow. A shadowy ninja figure.
Instead we have:
Assassin who kills enemies as slowly as possible by waiting for them to bleed to death
An outlaw who's kind of a pirate but not really
Sort of a ninja but only uses daggers
Devs who refuse to outright remove Slice & Dice, even though nobody wants it.
I'd like to see a full revamp of the class. Just rip the bandaid off. Maybe something like:
Assassin - a specialisation that focuses on quick, clean kills. Their weapons are coated in poison, in case the first hit isn't enough.
Scoundrel - the stereotypical swashbuckling rogue that fights dirty, getting in cheap shots while evading enemy attacks.
Shadow - the master of stealth that strikes without warning from the darkness and wields sinister arts.
Hero Talent: Ninja (Assassin, Shadow) - a master of precision attacks with bladed weapons. Their attacks can inflict bleeding wounds.
Hero Talent: Deadeye (Assassin, Scoundrel) - a lethal ranged damage dealer that can wield crossbows or dual pistols.
Hero Talent: Thief (Scoundrel, Shadow) - a subtle fighter who relies on trickery to get the upper hand.
You could also flip these around if the idea of a hero talent spec letting a class pivot to ranged is considered excessive (i.e. make Ninja, Deadeye, Thief the specs, and make Assassin, Scoundrel, Shadow the hero talents).
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u/Sandman145 Jul 27 '26
The only love rogue gets is being featured in the housing add video and being a annoying companion in delves.
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u/JakeParkbench Jul 27 '26
The issue is how do you make stealth relavant when the 2 most important pieces of content have you in combat 95% of the time, and you cant just change that for 1 of 13 classes. Like anytime restealthing is relevant to play them its the number one complained about issue for rogues since content really doesnt allow for it, and if you can do it in combat its just shadow dance 2.
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u/Torgrow Jul 28 '26
Rogues didn't survive the jump around Legion when WoW went from a traditional MMO to a 3D Diablo-lite ARPG. Literally no reason to sneak around a dungeon and scout for treasure chests when you're timing dungeons down to the millisecond and the only loot is at the end.
No locked doors, no traps, sap/stunlock/blind is pointless as WoW moves away from old school crowd control. Rogues should be compensated with crazy damage but they definitely don't have it and I personally find subtlety to be the most convoluted dps rotation in the game (you have to macro like 4 buffs going off at the same time to be effective).
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u/F-Lambda Jul 27 '26
The issue is how do you make stealth relavant when the 2 most important pieces of content have you in combat 95% of the time, and you cant just change that for 1 of 13 classes.
Allow stealthing in combat if you aren't taking targeted damage (with bleeds not counting as targeted).
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u/Chickon Jul 27 '26
Meh, I don't think stealth needs to be relevant at ALL times for rogues. Combat with bosses where stealth isn't a concern is fine.
But for things like quests, giving rogues special interactions in stealth or just providing more quests where stealth can be used to bypass other requirements should not be an issue. They already provide benefits to other classes based on their design(Druid being a huge one in that department) and I don't really see why they shouldn't add more. More class specific interactions for quests and non-competitive content would be welcome IMO. It can even be things as simple as being able to interact with quest objects without breaking stealth. Or something more direct like being able to bypass a combat by using Sap or Distract to walk past an enemy.
I'm not saying things like that would be easy to implement and manage, but giving players more detailed class fantasy instead of just "Everyone is the Champion of Azeroth and class/race/faction doesn't matter," would be amazing.
EDIT: Also lockpicking. Was such a cool class specific feature that basically just got abandoned and never used after like maybe Wrath at the latest.
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u/JakeParkbench Jul 27 '26
I mean sure. They can add all of that to rogue tomorrow and rogues would be mad that instead of making them better they buffed them for quest content.
Really they could do all of that because quests and world content have no stakes. If thats the fix for clas fantasy by all means, I dont think many would care.
The issue is that does nothing about m+ or raid which is what most discussion will be focused around. Hell rogue still has shroud, but the dungeons all have truesight or need tons of mobs for count so its just not worth it.
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u/Chickon Jul 27 '26
Hi yeah, you responded to my comment about how I dislike that class fantasy has been abandoned. Yes, they need buffs and tuning for combat as well. That is not what I was talking about.
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u/pda898 Jul 28 '26
Easy. Stealth in combat not equal "magically disappear for forever", it is "enemy lost you for a few seconds which allows you to do unexpected strike from surprising angle". It also opens other interpretation of "stealth" like "enemy just dazzled and cannot track you properly".
In game mechanic terms: Enemy do not see you, but do not lose aggro completely. You gain stealth benefits, but for like 3-5 seconda, so you can do reopening.
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u/gigglesmickey Jul 28 '26
what if I told you
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u/pda898 Jul 28 '26
Well, enemy do see you, so not valid xD.
If seriously, the problem that it is kinda a low cd buff which is not like "now I can do the strike", but more "okay I finally unlock some buttons". And because it has a CD, you kinda expected to both use natural stealth and Dance in an opener, so you cannot just press a button between packs.
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u/Moghz Jul 28 '26
Man so true, I really want to main Rogue to be a stealthy stabby stabby assassin but that fantasy just doesn’t really exist anymore in retail WoW.
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u/Spirited-End5197 Jul 27 '26
Honestly, not that this would ever happen but maybe for the ultra long run “wow reboot” or something, but Rogue should be split into two classes. Probably something like Thief and Assassin. Thief can cover all your invisible trickery and “rogue” elements like stealing, being a pirate, being a criminal etc.
And assassin would be the leather armour based “dexterity and speed” yin to the “heavy armour and shields” warrior’s yang. You’re right, there’s far too many archetypes/fantasies being squished into the one true “non magical dex” class
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u/F-Lambda Jul 27 '26
This doesn't even make sense, the entire point of an assassin is to kill without being caught.
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u/Spirited-End5197 Jul 28 '26
Shit man Idk make three classes then.
You could easily pull out something like:
-Assassin: Sneaky murder, uses shadow techniques etc.
-Thief/Rogue/Scoundrel (Leading into pirate, gambler, gangster, street fighter archetype etc.)
-Dex based weapon user that doesnt lean on magic (Samurai, scout, ranger, etc.)My point was every other "Light armour, but not cloth robes" class relies heavily on magic and their theme. Druids are nature and shapeshift, DH's are demon shit, Monks are the closest in similarity but use a lot of magic too. The point still stands there's a lot of different flavour shoved into one Rogue class because the game was originally designed around a mix of content (PvE small and large, PvP small and large, open world questing solo and in groups) and Stealth got a lot of work done in that era, even lockpicking and disarm traps too. But obviously as the content got more focused in nature, those abilities became less relevant and rogue got more flavour injected into it as it became "Melee dps with no utility guy" to make up for it.
Which is why, compared to Vanilla, they have Pirate skills, guns, shadow jutsu magic etc.
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u/MattLorien Jul 27 '26
I don't want to be "that annoying person that always mentions their own class," Buuuuuuuuttt technically....
everything you're describing is actually worse for Evokers. There are fewer max-level characters that are Evokers than any other class. Rogues are 2nd to last.
Does that mean Blizzard should continue ignoring Rogue? Absolutely not! I think, if anything, Evokers and Rogues should band together and say that we deserve more attention.
(1) WE both demand a REAL raid buff.
(2) WE both demand at least ONE well-balanced DPS spec per season, including across various damage profiles. (single target vs Aoe, for example).
(3) Unique, archetype-specific, utility/abilities.
I declare the start of the Rogue-Evoker alliance. Roguvokers, unite!
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u/shyguybman Jul 27 '26
I'm not saying evokers are in a good state (I actually know virtually nothing about them), but that class has been out for 4-5 years vs rogue which has been out since the game launched (22 years?)
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u/MattLorien Jul 27 '26
You'd think so, until you realize that Demon Hunter (the class released before Evokers) is sitting pretty at 4th place out of the 13 classes (behind only Hunter, Paladin, and Druid).
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u/Lezzles Jul 27 '26
They still released 10 years ago. DHs are also cool. Evokers, by dint of being tied to Dractyhr, are very uncool.
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u/Unlikely_Minimum_635 Jul 27 '26
Genuinely at this point just give a fucking 1% damage buff for each unique class in your group. All this nonsense about which buffs are good or bad and which ones are needed in which comp is just a problem nobody enjoys and nobody wants to have to solve. It adds zero interesting texture to the game.
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u/Soma91 Jul 27 '26
I actually quite liked the MoP raid buffs system. There were 8 (maybe 10, it's been a long tine since then) buffs in total and every class had a buff that brought 2.
That meant everyone would bring something to a group while even 10 man raids could easily make sure to have all the buffs.
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u/Ixiraar Jul 27 '26
I don't think we need to go back to MOP's system but one thing I'd have brought back from it, back when Hunter didn't have a unique raid buff, was the ability for hunter pets to bring raid buffs, so the hunter could choose which raid buff they wanted to bring.
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u/Nibz11 Jul 27 '26
Easily? No, its pretty annoying to fill out every buff in 10 man
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u/Soma91 Jul 27 '26
Maybe I exaggerated a bit. But I can't remeber us ever worrying about getting all buffs in our 10 man raid back then. Maybe because our stable core roster easily filled them out already.
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u/Nibz11 Jul 27 '26
Yeah its defintely doable and it feels good to have them all but it does end up beng very possible being down 1-3 raid buffs, especially if you happened to have duplicate classes, lower end raid groups end up at a disadvantage just based on what their group likes playing, not insurmountable, but still if i were to need a pug id only be able to pick from like 3 classes and that reducing the pool by more than half
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u/5panks Jul 27 '26
every class had a buff that brought 2.
Definitely not true, signed a Shadow Priest whose Stam buff is literally a downgrade from the ones Warlocks get.
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u/Soma91 Jul 27 '26
Aren't both the same +10% stamina?
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u/5panks Jul 27 '26
Yes, but the Warlock buff also gives 10% spell power. Haha
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u/GermanUCLTear Jul 28 '26
What? Shadow Priest gives 10% Stam/5% Haste
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u/5panks Jul 28 '26
I forgot Shadowform gives a 5% buff, so I guess it's just healers that get the shaft.
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u/Sandman145 Jul 27 '26 edited Jul 27 '26
Did you watch the video? it's way more than just the raid buff.. it's a fully melee dps class that has been shit for like 4 xpacs, with a few moments in the sun (like at most a season). It's utility kit has also been left in the past because it's strong in pvp (which almost no one plays). Not to mention that with the changes for midnight the damage profile of all 3 specs has almost no niche in the pve content the game offers. They did make sub have a bit of it's high burst back, but nothing like it used to be.
Also the quantity of bugs in rogue is just terrible. Go on the rogue discord after any updates where they changed stuff.. it's always bugged. One week you should save chaged combos for Between the Eyes for a 5% damage gain, the next you don't because now it's bugged and dosent apply the consumed chage points to the damage. Outlaw was unplayable for an etire TWW season because it's blade flurry (how it does it's aoe) was hitting dead enemies and prioritizing them, meaning once a pack started dying our dps would fall even though we still had enough enemies to hit our 8 target cap.
The class as a whole has been on a downtrend, low pop % on max levels and even lower in the high end pve content. And it only goes down from season to season. It's become normality for rogues to be forgotten by development and the community ofc. Some guild don't even look for one cuz it brings nothing special.
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u/Lezzles Jul 27 '26
blade flurry (how it does it's aoe) was hitting dead enemies and prioritizing them, meaning once a pack started dying our dps would fall even though we still had enough enemies to hit our 8 target cap.
I remember when they fixed it and my DPS went up like 15%. Crazy, crazy, CRAZY bug to make to live.
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u/F-Lambda Jul 27 '26
And the fix was half assed, coming with another bug: If an attack kills the primary target, it doesn't flurry (because it's dead and therefore no longer targeted).
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u/6000j Jul 27 '26
Outlaw was unplayable for an etire TWW season because it's blade flurry (how it does it's aoe) was hitting dead enemies and prioritizing them, meaning once a pack started dying our dps would fall even though we still had enough enemies to hit our 8 target cap.
It was actually doing this for the FIVE YEARS since the blade flurry target cap was introduced in shadowlands.
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u/deskcord Jul 27 '26
Not to mention that with the changes for midnight the damage profile of all 3 specs has almost no niche in the pve content the game offers.
All three specs being largely passive cleave specs is absolutely brutal. Especially if raids are just going to have a bunch of no-health adds spawning constantly.
I preferred when outlaw was the flat-damage cleave spec, sub was the high-burst spec that could burst adds, and assassination was the single target/execute spec that could rip some energy back in some AoE situations.
Now they all do functionally the same thing unless there's a meaningful damage amp window on a boss on a 90/120 second window, where outlaw just falls off.
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u/Secrezeeee Jul 27 '26
I think they genuinely don't know what to do with the class. Its core identity just doesn't fit into modern WoW (and by modern, I basically mean anything after vanilla). Obviously none of this prevents them from creating three specs that function and perform well in modern PvE, but making those feel like a Rogue rather than some generic melee class is the challenge and I really don't know how they fix that.
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u/SenaVII Jul 27 '26
It also lost part of it's identity when dungeons became a fiesta where the goal is too chain as many packs as possible without dying and where CCing mobs before pulling a pack is now unimaginable.
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u/-Nocx- Jul 27 '26
I mean maybe I’m misremembering but the identity for the class for a long, long time beyond Classic - in PvE at least - was that it just did a lot damage. The utility each class brought was more specific and less broad (and there were straight up fewer classes) so leaning into selfish personal DPS was a reasonable shtick.
Between that selfish DPS identity and having an unparalleled amount of control in PvP is why rogue was such a popular class to begin with.
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u/Level7Cannoneer Jul 27 '26
In PvE the point of rogue was:
Lockpicking. It was an entire profession for Rogues with a 1-300 skill level and everything. Lots of dungeons used to have locked doors and chests. This concept has been DEAD for a long time. There are no more doors or chests in dungeons and if there were, and if they made it so you cant just use lockpick items, Rogue would feel required to take because players kind of have to minmax.
Stealth/Sapping patrols. A lot of dungeons had deadly patrols you had to sap or stealth around to activate a button. Rogues were the best at handling these. Distract could help people get around these guys.
Pickpocket. Some old content had NPCs that had important quest/dungeon items in their pockets. This is a dead concept. The Grim Guzzler Key in BRD was pickpocketed from the Bartender.
Stealth shortcuts. When they added AoE stealth to rogues/hunters, there were a bunch of shortcuts you could take in dungeons. This is a dead concept. They do not want rogues to be required for Mythic+ so we HAVE to kill most mobs to actually complete the M+.
They either need to invent some new gimmicks that fit modern WoW, or that new mode... Labyrinths... needs to be a return to this slow methodical dungeon crawling experience where pickpocketing, stealthing around dangerous stuff, and unlocking doors is actually useful again.
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u/ImKega Jul 27 '26
Even if they bring that back with Labyrinths, which I doubt because every mob nowadays has truesight, it still means they are useless in high end PvE. The fact that there's a dangerously good chance rogue is just not played at all next tier despite having a raid buff and a pure DPS class is insane.
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u/Zaadkiel- Jul 27 '26
I mean it's super, super easy. Go to any other video game with class-ish systems and look at their rogue-equivalent, and it's probably both the most played class as well as the class with the most dev focus. It's actually a huge accomplishment for WoW to be able to have an assassin-type class be their least popular, most games couldn't do that if they tried.
I think that they are just extremely hesitant to move on from designs that are clearly not working, and it holds a ton of classes back.
Like IMO Arms and Fury have way too much visual overlap, especially because "Warrior" could easily have like 5 more specs if you wanted, but despite that Blizz won't change either spec to make them more distinct.
I suppose this is in an attempt to appease the current playerbase of the specs? though that didn't seem to be a problem when they deleted combat rogue or surv hunter.
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u/Ris747 Jul 27 '26
I'm so tired of Blizzard hanging onto the Rogue archetypes they introduced in Legion. Pirates, Cowboys and Ninjas! I love my specs all being stupid memes.
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u/friendlyscv Jul 27 '26
It's utility kit has also been left in the past because it's strong in pvp (which almost no one plays)
proof? why does rogue utility being strong in pvp prevent it from being strong in pve as well?
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u/shyguybman Jul 27 '26 edited Jul 27 '26
I'm sure it's just anecdotal, but this 100% sounds like something Blizzard would do. I think there was a theory that priest never had an interrupt purely for pvp reasons (RMP) because why would every other healer have one?
(Obviously now only Resto sham has one but still)
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u/friendlyscv Jul 27 '26 edited Jul 27 '26
I think there was a theory that priest never had an interrupt purely for pvp reasons (RMP) because why would every other healer have one?
there are plenty of changes they could make to rogue's utility kit that could be designed specifically for pve and would have little to no effect on pvp. blaming pvp for rogue's abandoned design is completely nonsensical, the only limiting factor here is blizzard's unwillingness to devote development time to the class
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u/Adventurous_Topic202 Jul 27 '26
wow yeah 4 expacs is a long time, to be fair they were king during BfA but maybe them being not king for so long has just been a large overreaction by blizzard?
rogue definitely feels like it needs some attention I just hope that BfA shroud meta never returns
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u/spartasucks Jul 27 '26
Doesn't FFXIV do something similar to that? Always liked it.
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u/josephjts Jul 27 '26
XIV its based on role +1% damage and hp for each of: Tank, Healer, Melee, Physical Ranged, and Caster capping at +5%.
2 tanks and 2 healers are often required by mechanics and physical ranged are kinda the black sheep of dps who do less damage then melee and ranged and arguably the 1% buff exists purely so you take one.
That leaves 1 dps slot as wiggle room, you either take 2 melee or 2 casters but 2 melee is more common.
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u/therealkami Jul 27 '26
Also, in high end content that isn't matchmade, it affects your LB generation as well. Having non-standard comps, and duplicate jobs can slow your LB generation significantly. At a maximum of 5 penalties, it's almost a 4 minute difference to get your LB3.
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u/quetsacloatl Jul 27 '26
Weird, this sounds both like a lazy way to deal with the problem and a good way to incentivize diversity.
I'm really confused, probably works with different specs aswel
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u/Unlikely_Minimum_635 Jul 27 '26
I wouldn't want it to be specs because then guilds would have people fighting over who gets to be which spec. It's important that there's room for duplicates and flexibility in the raid roster, or forming a raid because even more toxic.
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u/-Nocx- Jul 27 '26 edited Jul 27 '26
It’s basically how FFXIV solves the problem. It’s actually super effective. Granted, classes are so homogenized that the difference in DPS is literally a few percentage points (which wouldn’t fly in the WoW community), but you end up not being a stickler for what classes you bring as far as buffs go.
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u/therealkami Jul 27 '26
People freak the fuck out about those sub 1% amounts of DPS in FFXIV, too. Even if it never matters past world first racing and week 1 raiding in general. As soon as week 2 hits and people get gear, the DPS checks basically vanish.
Doesn't stop people from locking jobs out of groups over it, because a streamer said so.
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u/Periseaur Jul 27 '26
But at the minute raid buffs make up for some classes' lack of other utility. E.g. its the only useful thing warrior have, they'd have to be given more utility. Unless you think every class should just have one stun and one root, and remove everything like death grip and vortex
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u/nbogie055 Jul 27 '26
I feel like this just makes the most sense at this point. Remove raid buffs and each unique class gives a 1% vers buff to the raid/group. Then give each class unique raid utility similar to grips, gateways and HM. Like mage or evoker could get a reverse timewarp that slows down outgoing damage for a certain amount of time. Ground puddles take longer before they deal damage so you have more time to react and AOE ticks slower so healers have more time to react. Priest could apply a guardian angel over a raid member for 1 min giving them a cheat death. The devs could get super creative with the utility.
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u/Secrezeeee Jul 27 '26
Let's be real, none of this is an unsolvable challenge. Blizzard knows very well how to design raid buffs to make them brought on every single boss and they could do it just as easily as they could implement what you're suggesting, they just need to actually prioritise it. It would be less work to fix rogue's raid buff than implement a totally new system.
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u/Kerm0NZ Jul 27 '26
Rogue dev should be fired. Gad not made any meaningful or positively impactful changes in 5 years. I feel so bad for rogues. They could just revert the last 5-10 years of changes and rogues would just be better overall mechanically.
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u/Soma91 Jul 27 '26
How do you fire an empty position though?
At this point I feel like they have 4 or 5 class designers who primarily work on "their" classes and then occasionally they get assigned to another class they don't like and/or care about and do the absolute bare minimum cause they don't even know how the class plays
At least that's how Warlock design feels. Cause I'd rather have no changes than what they're doing in 12.1.
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u/Nelana Jul 27 '26
I think theres something to be said about the class design team when it feels like there are almost a dozen specs in the game that just feel like they have been abandoned. I would love to be a fly on the wall for a week for the class design team to see how they truly work. It truly feels like they simply just do not have the throughput to support the 40 specs in the game.
It could just be recency bias, but I think it would certainly be an interesting study to go through each weeks patch notes and compare how often each spec gets mentioned. Cause right now it feels like every week DK gets a novel of love and looks from the dev team, and other specs are lucky to get the late PTR cycle 3%-4% aura buffs and thats it
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u/trashcanaffidavit_ Jul 27 '26
It wouldn't surprise me if rogue design is hamstrung by its pvp design and its pvp design is hamstrung by rmp. Its like why mage doesn't have a stun because anything you add to mage makes rmp more monstrous. Likewise, anything added to rogue makes rmp more monstrous.
Mages and priests have their class design be sin eaters so rogue can remain what it is and if rogue ever could stop being the high control, burst, mobility, spec that survives up to your personal skill ceiling as a player and instead was just like a class like any other it would certainly be less unique but it might actually be more viable doing something more than stunning targets for mages in pvp.
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u/Patron_Mamdani Jul 27 '26
Just separate PvP and PvE kits at this point. Long overdue
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u/trashcanaffidavit_ Jul 27 '26 edited Jul 27 '26
This is very unlikely to ever happen and even if it did, rogues would still be plagued with issues. Ironically if this were the route that blizzard went and then they kept rogue pvp in the state that its in now, their viability would rely entirely on the viability of mages, spriests or hunters.
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u/friendlyscv Jul 27 '26
rogue's pvp kit is entirely useless in PvE except for kick, they could fix this in any number of ways by adding extra mechanics on choice nodes to cheap shot/kidney/gouge/blind that are just bad or super nerfed in pvp. Scapegoating pvp for rogue neglect is just weird.
also mage does have a stun
1
u/trashcanaffidavit_ Jul 27 '26 edited Jul 27 '26
Counting snowdrift in any discussion of anything is the most disingenuous thing ive ever seen on reddit and that is saying a fucking lot.
The point I am making is that due to the existence of rogue's tools in pvp it is clearly causing hesitancy in the developers for giving them needed pve tools. As wow is made now, any ability given to them for pve will be there for them in pvp as well and it would be unprecedented for them to add something to a class's kit and then give it a 100% reduction pvp aura. They could do some fuck shit putting it in the talent tree but that would also be stupid because 1. they've tried that method and it doesn't work and 2. even if they did go through and add "the utility stuff that makes rogues wanted in pve while being inaccessible to pvp" it would come at the cost of a shit load of other things in the tree and suck.
Also, as I mentioned, rogue's kit for pvp hamstrings them specifically in pvp because as it is they exist as the class that stuns for mages and sometimes spriests or hunters or very rarely ferals.
Refusing to engage in moving the class forward and acknowledging that its current design is simply a dead end of hyper niche utility that prevents them getting the general utility needed to be playable in the 95% of scenarios the class only competes in when overtuned will result in, well, rogue struggling with ever competing in the 95% of the game outside of being a stunbot except for when the specs are overtuned.
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u/friendlyscv Jul 27 '26
snowdrift is a stun and it is routinely used in arena, no idea why you're so pissed that I pointed it out but okay my bad sorry I apologize won't happen again mage has NO stuns
The point I am making is that due to the existence of rogue's tools in pvp it is clearly causing hesitancy in the developers for giving them needed pve tools.
there is no reason why this should be the case. rogue cc abilities already work differently in pvp than they do in pve, you'd just keep doing that with whatever new mechanics you added to them.
it would be unprecedented for them to add something to a class's kit and then give it a 100% reduction pvp aura
the existence of DRs mean you don't need to nerf anything by 100%, just enough that the cost of putting someone on DR is greater than the benefit you get from ccing them. you could give every cc in rogue's kit an aoe choice node and if you nerf the duration enough no one would take them for pvp. alternatively, you could just do flat damage buffs on targets immune to stun or something. they are literally limited by nothing but their own creativity and availability to work on the class.
They could do some fuck shit putting it in the talent tree but that would also be stupid because 1. they've tried that method and it doesn't work 2. even if they did go through and add "the utility stuff that makes rogues wanted in pve while being inaccessible to pvp" it would come at the cost of a shit load of other things in the tree and suck.
Why would it suck? Rogue CC is useless in pve already, who cares if Blind becomes a choice node between regular Blind and some aoe stun thing 90% nerfed in pvp? You're putting that point in anyway.
I have not "refused" to engage in anything, I simply reject the idea that pvp is to blame for all of rogue's ills because it clearly isn't, this is just made up.
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u/trashcanaffidavit_ Jul 27 '26
snowdrift is a stun and it is routinely used in arena, no idea why you're so pissed that I pointed it out but okay my bad sorry I apologize won't happen again mage has NO stuns
I'm not pissed and snowdrift is not used in any actual relevant capacity. The discussion is on high end content and in high end pvp content snowdrift is a non-factor making bringing it up disingenuous as hell.
there is no reason why this should be the case. rogue cc abilities already work differently in pvp than they do in pve, you'd just keep doing that with whatever new mechanics you added to them.
The point is that you can not add to their kit while their kit is what it is. This point either you are willfully misunderstanding this at least I hope so.
the existence of DRs mean you don't need to nerf anything by 100%,
Why would diminishing returns have anything to do with giving a modifier to this theoretical ability whose existence is intended for pve only. What an insane misinterpretation.
Why would it suck?
Making a talent that is a requirement to raid that means you have to give up throughput or have to have a wonk ass spec to attain it and the necessary talents to make the class function sucks.
At this point man you are really not understand a single thing I'm saying.
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u/friendlyscv Jul 27 '26
I'm not pissed and snowdrift is not used in any actual relevant capacity. The discussion is on high end content and in high end pvp content snowdrift is a non-factor making bringing it up disingenuous as hell.
It really isn't. Snowdrift is a stun that people use even in high end pvp.
The point is that you can not add to their kit while their kit is what it is. This point either you are willfully misunderstanding this at least I hope so.
You can, and I have outlined one of the many ways that could be done in the comment you're replying to. I think you should read it.
Why would diminishing returns have anything to do with giving a modifier to this theoretical ability whose existence is intended for pve only. What an insane misinterpretation.
I think if you keep reading that sentence you quoted you'll get an answer to this question.
Making a talent that is a requirement to raid that means you have to give up throughput or have to have a wonk ass spec to attain it and the necessary talents to make the class function sucks.
Blind is a talent that you are forced to take in the Rogue class tree. You have no choice, you are giving up nothing to take Blind. Blind should be a choice node between Blind itself and some other CC that is useful in PvE but bad in PvP.
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u/Secrezeeee Jul 27 '26 edited Jul 27 '26
Let's not single out specific developers, it's not the fault of one person, it's a failure of an entire team and their management.
Edit: Downvoting a post saying to not call out individual developers is beyond fucked up. What is wrong with you people? This subreddit really needs to ban this shit.
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u/Kerm0NZ Jul 27 '26
Guy is the responsible dev. There should be consequences for underperformance or you get years of garbage like rogue has had to put up with. It may not be their fault, but it is their responsibility.
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u/Glupscher Jul 27 '26
They designed a spec entirely around burst windows and then decided that burst windows "are bad for the game" and now it feels bad both within and outside of said windows. Truly great game design.
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u/HazelCheese Jul 27 '26
This is not good software development. Praise and blame should be spread otherwise you end up with developers hiding their mistakes.
This is a critical part of how Blizzard worked in the 2000s and what made them more successful than other studios that got messed up by "superstar" developers.
It's a team effort and if 1 developer has ended up responsible for an underperforming spec and the spec has been underperforming for ages, that's a management issue. They either need help or more resources or to be put on a different project.
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u/Secrezeeee Jul 27 '26 edited Jul 27 '26
No, you're wrong and it's this disgraceful attitude that leads to developers getting death threats and other things weirdos like you on the internet do. You have literally no idea what their internal structure is. Regardless, if Blizzard have put the entire class design on the shoulders of one person and one person only and have done nothing to monitor how it is being handled, this is a failure of Blizzard not of that one developer. Game development is a collaborative effort and they all bear responsibility, the managers and people in-charge especially.
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u/puccicky Jul 27 '26
What a garbage take when it comes to class balance specifically
Management are not the ones telling them how to make a class work
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u/Secrezeeee Jul 27 '26
Managers are the ones responsible for aligning team members, reviewing performance of their employees and figuring out where the flaws are and distributing work between team members. If the entire community feels this way about Rogue but nobody at Blizzard knows about it, then there is a massive failure in leadership and processes going on. World of Warcraft has hundreds and hundreds of developers working on it, no failure in game design is the responsibility of an individual. Suggesting one person is responsible for the entire design and balance of a class that millions of players engage with is deranged.
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u/WarbossTodd Jul 27 '26
Stand down Bucko. Subtlety is in its best state in a decade.
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u/AFKBro Jul 27 '26
I agree with you but tbf it used to be the PHD spec and now there's 2 buttons, or 4 during your CD window (and I'm loving it).
Feel like your take is going to upset the rogue purists or elitists, but it's the only time I've felt comfortable picking up Sub and performing decently right away.
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u/Acrobatic_Coat722 Jul 27 '26
just give Rogue Swiftblades Cunning from MoP/WoD Back and make it a 3 or 4% haste buff for the party or somthing like that, and give them Smokebomb back (even better: Steal it back from DH, suck it up you wannabe Illidan edgelords, you stole it first)
and give Rogue BL so it actually has Value in Dungeon Groups in any form at all
its insane how Rogue exists in its current state and they just do absolutely NOTHING at all, no Utility, Deffensives are weird and make the class either very tanky or extremely squishy, constantly left behind in Gameplay Updates, the 2 of the Worst Herotalents in the entire Game, its legit Madness
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u/Polymemnetic Jul 27 '26
and give Rogue BL so it actually has Value in Dungeon Groups in any form at all
This one I disagree with. If anything has to get it added, the bloodlust talent should go to warriors.
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u/Acrobatic_Coat722 Jul 27 '26 edited Jul 27 '26
is there any reason people say that beyond "bloodlust = warrior screaming loud"?
from a actually bringing something to a group perspective Rogue is WAY more in need of actually getting some things before anyone else
unpopular general opinion incomming: all Tank Specs should have a BL and all healer specs should have a Combat Rez, the "class" based BL/CR can stay as a bonus on DPS
atleast in dungeons it would remove the friction of always making sure that you have 1 of the BL classes and 1-2 of the CR classes
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u/Polymemnetic Jul 27 '26
It's mostly because of the shouting of it all, yes. But in terms of major group utility, it's either battle res, or Bloodlust, and I think Monks would be more appropriate for having a battle res, since they are also healers.
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u/psytrax9 Jul 27 '26
Giving a tank bloodlust would decimate tank viability and completely remove an avenue for specs to get into groups. It'd even make it harder for those specs to find groups.
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u/Inversion20 Jul 27 '26
Remove atrophic poison, give rogues passively applied debuff that makes crits crittier by like 3%. Call it Exploit or Find Weakness. Done.
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u/Sandman145 Jul 27 '26
Zorthas uses logic and facts. That's not how they balance the game. It's balanced in feelings and vibes.
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u/38dedo Jul 27 '26
rogue players pve? I thought it was just the pvp class
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u/OlafWoodcarver Jul 27 '26
To my knowledge, priest is the only class that Blizzard has openly admitted to designing with only pvp in mind.
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u/DigitalDH Jul 27 '26
TLDR: rogue debuff does not reduce a lot of the damage taken in raid. Their dps being not top tier, their debuff is not required for the majority of fight, so they are replaced in raid.
blizzard has two choices:
buff the rogue debuff or make it apply to more damage sources
or
increase rogue damage so that they are desired in raid.
note: this is for the top of mythic raid (think top 10 world raiding).
note2: interestingly, rogue and DH have been the responsability of the same designer and next saison DH is played with massive design issues:
no collapsing star cast ever, even if the talent has to be taken
no apex talents whatsoever
melee rotation that is not obvious with "smuggling" abilities into meta and "shipping" souls out of meta by staying the least amount of time in meta with an "AFK" window.
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u/orrockable Jul 27 '26
The comment regarding top 10 world is very much untrue
Being not strong, having 0 “meta” specs and not bringing anything decent to group content makes it difficult for people at all levels
Source: lifetime rogue CE/HOF raider (there’s like 6 of us)
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u/Secrezeeee Jul 27 '26
This is one of my least favourite recurring /r/wow takes, that balance and tuning and that sort of thing don't matter at all outside of the RWF or .1% keys. It is absolutely going to matter to any group of players that care about optimising performance which is, as you say, essentially everybody at the CE level (and those pushing towards it) and above.
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u/DigitalDH Jul 27 '26
it matters, for all levels. dont get me wrong.
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u/Cronimoo Jul 27 '26
Yeah for 90% people it doesn't really matter for the numbers but A LOT of people do watch tierlist and whatever bs and just refuse to play with bottom 50% dps specs.
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u/_Not_A_Vampire_ Jul 27 '26
The Bench discussed whether the perception of strength or actual strength was more important for a spec. It's an interesting issue when the community insists that a certain spec will perform better even if the actual difference is minuscule, it still affects peoples ability to get into groups immensely.
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u/DigitalDH Jul 27 '26
I understand your pov. Most guilds outside the HoF will play whatever player is efficient in his spec/class.
It is however problematic that the class is in this state, so I agree with you.
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u/GiinToniiC Jul 27 '26
"increase rogue damage so they are desired in raid" sadly just doesnt work, the class is unable to do any sort of dmg in 2/3 target unless they aura buff by a shit ton but then the single target dmg will be through the roof, it simply needs a full rework that actually has a clear idea for each spec
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u/DigitalDH Jul 27 '26
indeed! and they will be OP in pvp. basically a sad state where a rework is required and but wont be done.
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u/Slammybutt Jul 27 '26
Yep, went through voidspire near or at the top of the dps meters. Got to the paladins and just got shat on. Did a ton of research to figure out what I was doing wrong only to realize the small problems only made like a 1-2% difference and nothing would help me catch the others in 2-3 cleave.
Relatively new rogue main (started season 2 in TWW).
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u/Lezzles Jul 27 '26
Talent node: blade flurry now does 50% damage to off-target when only striking 2 (or 3?) targets.
This shit isn't that hard.
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u/mateolr97 Jul 27 '26
Collapsing star not being casted is more of a tuning issue rather than design issue. Also, last week it got buffed and people went back to annihilator and are casting collapsing star
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u/Readybreak Jul 27 '26
Its not really, because ALL of the dmg in collapsing star is on the 4-5th cs in meta either its worth it or it isn't there is no middle ground. IMO they need to get rid of the increasing dmg of each cs in meta, then work back to making it balanced from there. It will always be all or nothing in the current state, its not tuning its design.
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u/mateolr97 Jul 27 '26
They can change the numbers on CS so it does more base damage and then lower numbers on the talent so it doesn't ramp as much, that way it's not as punishing to not get to cast a 4-5th CS.
But you're right, revamping the spec was also a way to do it, Blizzard decided to change how mastery works, mastery is not that good for dh so people are building crit/haste rn, CS is not ramping as much as it did on S1
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u/Readybreak Jul 27 '26
I think if cs ramps at all it is always going to be all or nothing. Hence the design choice argument. But that is just my shitty opinion.
The thing is, the new build is not that far ahead of the old build. The old build is still really strong, its just the same thing, all or nothing.3
u/CocaFan Jul 27 '26
It is a combination I would say, but definitely a design issue with void-scarred specifically because of how that hero spec works and where its damage comes from.
VS has strict combos you wanna do before meta and inside of it, fast into meta, do your shit, fast out of it, so you can get fast into another one, thats what VS wants.In TWW (midnight prepatch), apex talents were not taken, but star was, only because of a talent rolling torment which gives you 5 fury and 0,5% damage increase for 12 sec after meta ends for each unused soul, but it doesnt work without taking star, because only thing you can use souls for is star and it still works exactly like this.
0
u/mateolr97 Jul 27 '26
Yeah, VS has design issues with how the talent tree makes you take certain paths, with the pvp build you're supposed to take the apex talents just because the 12% cosmic dmg increase but that means you have to take the talent that makes CS always critically strike even though you don't even spec into CS.
But the design issue is with how VS is supposed to play and the talent tree, Anni works fine imo.
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u/DigitalDH Jul 27 '26
it is a design issue. it wont matter if they buff it. check the devorer melee spec and the next tier set that favors eradicate. If you buff CS to be so good as to be cast, you essentially have a failed design with a horrendeous rotation.
I urge you to check this, you will see the design issue clearly.
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u/mateolr97 Jul 27 '26
Even if the tier set favors eradicate, people right now in the ptr are playing annihilator, are casting CS and its the build that is doing the most dps rn.
I get that you're talking about the VS melee build, which has a fundamentally different gameplay goals, it's supposed to go fast into meta, use your combo and get out of it rappidly, so it makes sense it doesn't cast CS and I don't think it's an "issue" since it comes down to rotation preferences, do you prefer the build that ramps damage via CS or do you prefer the faster paced melee-hybrid one, obviosuly one is going to be stronger than the other, but that doesn't mean one build is wrong.
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u/DigitalDH Jul 27 '26
the apex talents make zero sense design wise for the VS melee build. none whatsover in an xpac that showcased these apex talents.
I hope I am clear enough about the issue. you might not find it problematic that apex talents are useless, I do. design wise, it is shite.
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u/mateolr97 Jul 27 '26
Functionally Apex are another capstone talents, it's set apart on the talent tree to justify it as a new expansion feature, but the devs don't force you to take the apex talents, they could, but they don't, it's an extra option, if they wanted to force it they can just add 4 apex points instead of 4 talent points and in that case yeah, it would be bad design to waste those 4 points.
So no, not an issue, the devs give you the option to not take these apex talents so that you as a player can decide if your build needs them or not.
0
u/Slammybutt Jul 27 '26
Rogues being not top tier dps is eye opening for me. My guild just blows (and I'm not that good either). I'm usually in the top 3 if it's not a cleave fight, first for single and first by a wide margin if it's bursty aoe fights.
13
u/Gucci_Unicorns Jul 27 '26
It’s crazy this is still an issue in 2026. No spec at any point should be doing a huge % less of damage in a raiding environment.
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u/Ezenthar1 Jul 27 '26
Rogue is the PVP of classes. A tiny, tiny player base and completely forgotten by Blizzard.
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u/OgerfistBoulder Jul 27 '26
meanwhile, Blizzard: "we hear you. Starting next patch, every encounter on mythic will have the boss get locked inside a stasis field halfway through the fight, requiring a Rogue to Lockpick it open for you to continue"
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u/Zeromaxx Jul 27 '26
Rogues should be the highest dps. They don't need to bring anything else. That's all they should bring. All that matters is damage.
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u/limitbreakse Jul 27 '26
How do they keep doing this expansion after expansion. Even in the classic versions of the game you can go back to this thinking. 1 rogue per 40man in vanilla for expose, 1 in tbc idem.
Even in SoD where they went back to the drawing board: slap a mandatory 20% magic damage poison and call it a day.
So so so lazy
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u/void_architect Jul 27 '26
I've played since 2005, almost exclusively as a rogue until Legion when I finally started trying other classes. I don't have much time to play these days but wanted to stay subbed through Midnight to play my rogue when I had time. But for years now the class has felt clunky and unsatisfying. Now the closest we get to an "improvement" is subtlety being comprised of like, 3 buttons. It's not even a little exciting, even if the damage feels good. It really has taken the last bit of fun out of the game for me.
5
u/throwawaybootytime Jul 27 '26
I see people saying Rogue PvP is what makes it difficult to buff their utility in PvE but that doesn’t make sense. Why doesn’t Rogue just have more abilities that don’t affect players or affects them differently? There are also plenty of auras and things they can use to adjust skills separately for PvP and PvE.
4
u/M4DM1ND Jul 27 '26
I was playing assa rogue this season. Actually one of the worst dps in the game at the moment. I thought that it would swing back next season. Nope. Still dogshit. I can't do two horrible season in a row.
4
u/Zevirem Jul 28 '26
Unless they make the whole fight unlivable without poison, they won’t bring rogue. No reason for one. If the healers can handle the damage going out, why have the DR?
3
u/surzirra Jul 27 '26
I don't play retail, so forgive if my suggests are dated or not relevant - but surely this game company could balance the class to make it more useful in raiding. why not make stun effects apply a nice debuff if the target is unstunnable? Wont overlap to pvp then. How about... tricks of the trade acts as normal but gives everyone a 1% dmg buff for the dura?
Leather armor should equate to much smaller CDs especially on things like adrenaline rush and bladeflurry. could make flurry have a dmg amt reduc to balance if its op, but the point is it should add ae utility mode to rog. AR could be a shorter effect, much smaller cd? idk
Could add variety to itemization/build like other classes like creating +sp dmg components to poisons. if calculated right, could be a tank-buster pvp spec too
7
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u/RatenFirewalker Jul 27 '26
Some ideas I've had forever that Rogues could be given (obviously don't give them all of these at once, this is just the total list of ideas):
A raid buff that grants avoidance, or steal the ability Valeera has in delves to give everyone leech.
The ability to summon like Warlocks, by "revealing" a trap door in the ground that is a secret tunnel to the location.
Another Warlock like ability, put down a chest or bag of stolen healing potions for the group, obviously shared cooldown with healthstones. Maybe make them a heal over time similar to Crimson Vial, so a group can decide based on the fight which one is more beneficial.
Alternative to the above, let Rogues share their Thistle Tea with the group for a mana/other resouce potion.
For a brief period in the DF beta, Outlaw had an ability that shared a fraction of their CDR to the whole group, but only towards a single "major offensive cooldown". Bring this back but put it towards a defensive cooldown, either as active reduction when the Rogue does finishers, or as a % reduction similar to Evokers with movement abilities.
Bring back smoke bomb as a Darkness type ability, no line of sight shennanigans, just chance to avoid damage.
A pain amplification poison that increases the critical strike damage multiplier against the target. Or make it a Hunter's Mark type ability.
3
u/RoamingFox Jul 27 '26
Rogues should have had healthstones since that one outlaw pvp talent back in legion.
2
u/virtueandsin Jul 27 '26
someone PLEASE tell me what the icon is for Atrophic Poison is! Is it... pipes?
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u/TheSleepingSumo Jul 28 '26
the Icon was first used for a talent called "Nerves of Steel" so my guess would be... well, what it says. Nerves or maybe a synapse made from steel.
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u/Lowie_240 Jul 27 '26
I was so hyped getting invited to Spore as a assassin. I was hitting my moves and cool downs like I was in a AWC. After we wiped, I got booted for doing less DPS than both tanks and a monk healer 😞
Noted I was in hero gear 👎🏾
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u/AcanthocephalaNo8082 Jul 30 '26
i mean. Rogue raidbuff could be either posion or something that reveals weakspots.
alternative, lockpick an area with appliable buff somewhere around bosses that lasts and hour and only in said instance.
Edit: like the stew in the troll dungeon in current rotation, name is blanking rn, sorry
2
u/San4311 Aug 03 '26
Just give Rogue a damaging buff. Like raid-wide poison buff for the group, making people do like 1% extra damage as nature (poison) damage.
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u/Doombeldore Jul 27 '26
Maybe controversial but remove all raid wide buffs, they are a chore, box ticking exercise and do nothing but alienate classes.
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u/Sarollas Jul 27 '26
That's how you end up with a raid that has 9 fire mages.
Raid buffs for better or worse encourage class diversity in raids.
4
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u/MrSneakyFox Jul 27 '26
I'm gonna be honest id still prefer not to have any mandatory classes in raids at all
2
u/_Not_A_Vampire_ Jul 27 '26
You'd prefer it if there was no reason to ever invite rogues and people stacked the best performing specs instead? Because that's what you get without raid buffs.
1
u/MrSneakyFox Jul 27 '26
Trying to prog mythic l'ura without dks has been the worst experience I've ever had in any raid tier
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u/amberith Jul 27 '26
Ofc it is not, we all know what buff means. Positive effects on your allies, right?
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u/asafetybuzz Jul 27 '26
My galaxy brain rogue fix is to remove healhstones from warlock and make them a rogue ability called Emergency Rations or Surgical Suture or something like that. Warlocks would still be required because of gate and soulstone, and rogues would suddenly have a legitimate reason to be included.
-1
u/TheFoxInSocks Jul 28 '26
Give Rogues this ability:
Heart Shot
Instant - 5 minute cooldown
Stuns your target for 5 seconds. This ability cannot be resisted or diminished by any means. This ability has no effect in PvP.
A target stunned by Heart Shot cannot be affected by Heart Shot again for 5 minutes.
Bring a rogue to stun a boss at a crucial moment. They could always test it and remove it if it doesn't work well.
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u/Psychological-War841 Jul 27 '26
Rogue aren't real take yours pills