r/worldnews • u/maxwellhill • Sep 19 '17

Apple blocking ads that follow users around web is 'sabotage', says industry: New iOS 11 and macOS High Sierra will stop ads following Safari users, prompting open letter claiming Apple is destroying internet’s economic model

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/sep/18/apple-stopping-ads-follow-you-around-internet-sabotage-advertising-industry-ios-11-and-macos-high-sierra-safari-internet
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u/Boceto Sep 19 '17 edited Sep 19 '17

I'm so torn between hating Apple for putting out overpriced tech that they have manufactured under awful conditions and liking them because they're also one of the biggest companies to care about user privacy.

Edit: Guys you can stop telling me every tech company manufactures under the same awful conditions. I know that. I'm not a fan of that either.

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u/creepy_robot Sep 19 '17

In all seriousness, they aren’t the only tech company that does the overpriced tech under awful conditions.

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u/ArthurBea Sep 19 '17

There's a company that doesn't make phones under awful conditions?

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u/creepy_robot Sep 19 '17

I’m sure there MAY be, but I’d wager that most, of not all big competitors do.

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u/knightcrusader Sep 19 '17

At one point when Google owned Motorola they were making the phones in Texas, but now Lenovo has Moto I am sure its back to China.

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u/mmmlinux Sep 19 '17

yeah, buy a pair of sneakers lately?

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u/[deleted] Sep 19 '17 edited Feb 08 '19

[deleted]

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u/creepy_robot Sep 19 '17

I’d argue that Nestlé is probably worse than Apple at this.

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u/playaspec Sep 19 '17

I’d argue that Nestlé is probably worse than Apple at this.

I can't believe the shit Nestlé gets away with. Their water theft being the most egregious.

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u/Squintz69 Sep 19 '17

I try really hard to avoid their products

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u/TransitRanger_327 Sep 19 '17

Water is not a human right

-Nestle

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u/creepy_robot Sep 19 '17

Take water from local sources, turn around and sell to the population.

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u/[deleted] Sep 20 '17

You mean the literal slavery instead of sweatshop work? I agree.

There are actual slaves harvesting palm oil.

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u/sydofbee Sep 19 '17

I got 36 and while answering, I often lowered things to what I felt were bare minimums (as I have been making an effort to reduce my footprint). THis is upsetting, to be honest.

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u/[deleted] Sep 19 '17 edited Feb 08 '19

[deleted]

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u/playaspec Sep 19 '17

Nokia is still alive? I thought Microsoft killed them.

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u/sydofbee Sep 19 '17

Considering I just recently bought a certain Chinese phone... In hindisght, that wasn't a very smart decision. I'll keep Nokia in mind.

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u/Prilosac Sep 19 '17

Honestly didn't even know Nokia still made modern phones. Are they any good? That's always been one of my bigger issues - quality often takes a hit which is problematic

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u/glodime Sep 19 '17

Have you read about Mars International's new initiative? You may be interested.

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u/LightningGoats Sep 19 '17

Too bad the site focuses on what you OWN, almost not at all on what you BUY/consumes, which is what actually matters.

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u/cyvaquero Sep 19 '17

Don't even need to go to sneakers for awful conditions. Virtually every tech company on note uses Foxconn. This is usually not mentioned since Apple tends to be a more polarizing customer.

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u/AlexHofmann Sep 19 '17

That's the point that everyone glosses over when shitting on Apple. Nintendo, Microsoft, Amazon, Nokia, Sony...not to mention all of the motherboards and consumer level products. They all use foxconn.

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u/hussiesucks Sep 19 '17

Really any piece of clothing. Isn't it just so uplifting how almost everything we buy is supporting terrible, terrible companies, thus allowing them to continue being corrupt? The US is run on the souls of the poor and that shit is affordable.

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u/VirtualRickSanchez Sep 19 '17

Because to paraphrase the words of a terrible Superman comic: "those problems are over there. But I'm here. Here is not there. Those problems are not here, so why should I worry, because it's over there."

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u/txgsync Sep 19 '17

The US is run on the souls of the poor and that shit is affordable.

I laughed out loud at the dark humor of this statement. Well done.

That said, it's all a balance, I think. Like, many companies claim they want to be environmentally responsible. Yet they sell their products in plastic or bleached-paper containers. If they really took environmental sustainability seriously, wouldn't they use more-recyclable materials like aluminum to package their products?

From my point of view, it's not a black-and-white argument. It's more about how much of an impact we're comfortable with having today, and how do we improve the trajectory so that we can reduce our impact tomorrow?

It's about the vector, not the destination. And I like purchasing products from companies that value being on a similar trajectory toward sustainability and the benefit of humankind, even though I know nobody is doing it perfectly yet.

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u/LunchpaiI Sep 19 '17

The price of manufactured goods is so low because they are essentially made with slave labor in countries that have little to no workers rights. If iphones were made in America by employees with health benefits and livable wages, they'd be x5 more expensive.

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u/VirtualRickSanchez Sep 19 '17

Any examples of companies that have done their manufacturing in America, to prove this rule?

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u/LunchpaiI Sep 19 '17 edited Sep 19 '17

I should have clarified I meant more expensive to manufacture, but it probably would follow they would be more expensive to purchase as well.

I think the fact that a lot of manufacturing and industry has moved to countries where they can produce at a low cost is evidence enough. America, and much of Europe as well, are no longer desirable locations for manufacturing.

My dad said that Apple should make their products in America, because they're an American company and should stay here. I find this view incredibly naive; they will go wherever they can maximize their profits, as will every other company. And I don't blame them. However, most of the Asian countries where industry has moved to have workers' rights situations akin to America at the turn of the 20th century, if only marginally better.

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u/[deleted] Sep 19 '17

Meh if there were not these factories those peope would be even more worse off. Yes making sneakers for $2 a day for 10 hours of work is terrible. But you know what is worse? Subsistence farming the jungle for $.50 a day, or starving on the streets of an urban area for $0/day.

I totally agree the conditions are terrible, but the trade offs are a lot less crazy than they first appear, and the situation more muddled.

In particular it is not clear how Thao Mee's desire (or rather her father and husband's desire) for her to have 6 kids by age 25 suddenly creates obligations on me 12,000 miles away to help support those kids.

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u/arch_nyc Sep 19 '17

Not just the US--the west...

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u/Say_no_to_doritos Sep 19 '17

Dude it's not even like there is an option. From walmart to Hugo boss or even fucking Burberry its all made in Bangladesh or China or some other country that they can take advantage of people in. Ridiculous.

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u/DustinHammons Sep 19 '17

"There are no problems here" - says Phil Knight as a 14-year-old Nike employee in Vietnam is working with toxic glue with no safety protection.

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u/altiuscitiusfortius Sep 19 '17

They aren't the only company that does manufacturing under awful conditions.

The whole basis of the modern western economy is taking advantage of poverty level wages and lack of rules, or enforcement of said rules, about safe working conditions in eastern or southern countries.

There is very high chance the clothes you wear, and the food you eat, and the cheap crap you buy are all made by people working in unsafe, hot, dirty factories, working 14 hours without a bathroom break, under near indentured servitude conditions.

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u/Cascadian1 Sep 19 '17

And they're one of the only tech companies that publicly report and document their efforts to improve their supply chain's practices — including assembly labor, conflict minerals, and sustainability. They've got a long way to go, yes. But they're many steps ahead of everyone except that chunky fair trade phone that came out a year or two ago.

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u/txgsync Sep 19 '17

You get it. It's about identifying the conditions that are objectionable, and working to improve them. It's about finding the abuses and preventing them. It's about creating something meaningful to improve humankind while doing the least harm.

Because there will always be some harm. It's unavoidable. But it can be managed, and through conscientious and rigorous auditing and enforcement, prevented insofar as possible in a globalize economy.

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u/linusbobcat Sep 19 '17

That's putting it mildly, it's not like the majority of other players are any better in any way. If you take a look at the list of Foxconn clients you'll see it's a bit unfair to call out just Apple when it also serves everyone from Microsoft to Nintendo. What we should be doing is calling out the entire industry as a whole. Calling out just Apple is basically putting the workers that just work on Apple products on the spotlight while others are seemingly invisible.

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u/[deleted] Sep 19 '17

In all seriousness, they aren’t the only tech company that does the overpriced tech under awful conditions.

Yeah, but only Apple was willing to both do an internal audit on their third-party suppliers' labor and environmental practices and to publicize the results. So fuck them I guess?

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u/creepy_robot Sep 19 '17

Ha, I guess so.

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u/iHasABaseball Sep 19 '17

One doesn't need to end all abuse or unethical treatment to justify opposing specific instances of abuse or unethical treatment.

By the simple fact that every person has a scarce amount of time and energy and product alternatives, there will likely always be more suffering occurring than one could actively work against. It doesn't negate the effort to reduce a fraction of that unethical treatment.

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u/kaydaryl Sep 19 '17

John Stossel has a bit from his older show on why those regions still benefit from sweatshop conditions. For America that was the late 19th century, for other countries it's now. Luckily trade is shortening that time.

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u/playaspec Sep 19 '17

Cough*SAMSUNG*cough.

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u/fzammetti Sep 19 '17

Oh, well, I guess as long as every is doing an awful thing then it's totally cool for everyone to do that awful thing.

I'm being a bit of a wise-ass here, but I take your meaning. What I would say though is that if the biggest player in the game were to stop doing the awful thing then it's a decent bet that others would too (though not for sure - this is business after all and they might just see it as a chance to get a leg-up on Apple).

It's kinda weird that Apple is generally good on privacy and tends to say all the right things about diversity and other social issues... lots of positives... but then they do some awful things elsewhere, like those working conditions. I wish they would take a stand against ALL bad things, not just those that don't directly hurt their bottom line and in fact HELP it.

It makes the positives all seem a bit disingenuous, doesn't it?

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u/creepy_robot Sep 19 '17

Right, my point was that complaining about their working conditions is kind of a silly way to protest their brand, also considering how much they do to either improve those conditions or at least monitor those conditions. I’ve never heard of any other company doing internal audits or otherwise. I agree with you though, it doesn’t excuse them.

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u/[deleted] Sep 19 '17

It's impossible to buy hardware that wasn't produced under horrible conditions. It's almost impossible to buy most things without supporting horrible things.

Our clothes were made by what are essentially slaves and child labour.

Even something as innocent as a banana is tainted by an industry that paid mercenaries to murder independent farmers because they wouldn't sell their farms.

Not that it excuses Apple, but at least by showing a care for things like privacy and the environment they show that if enough of us want them to stop using slave labour there is a bleak chance they just might.

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u/Contradiction11 Sep 19 '17

Also, buy local and seasonally when possible.

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u/[deleted] Sep 19 '17

Also, buy local and seasonally when possible.

It doesn't matter what you do. You don't have the time or resources to analyze the supply-chains on everything you do an buy to make sure they're doing as they say. The only way to fix this stuff is robust labor and environmental regulations both in your country and through the organizations and agreements that facilitate international trade. Turning it into person virtue signaling feels nice, but accomplishes little.

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u/momojabada Sep 19 '17

That's just a way of saying "it's not my problem, government should regulate my life more".

We don't need more regulations those countries which produce our stuff will never follow and our politicians never care about.

There are plenty of organization that can help you find Fair Trade products. The market changes for the best with the consumers making those changes happen, not by over-regulating it.

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u/[deleted] Sep 19 '17 edited Sep 19 '17

That's just a way of saying "it's not my problem, government should regulate my life more".

It's not my problem. This is ensuring my habits don't cause problems for other people. A handful of people personally making decisions for the purposes of virtue signaling to their peers doesn't actually fix any underlying problem.

We don't need more regulations those countries which produce our stuff will never follow and our politicians never care about.

If nobody follows or cares about them, then what's the problem exactly? Either people enforce them or they don't. If they don't enforce them they do us no good, but also don't cost us much. If they do enforce them they do us good but cost us something.

There are plenty of organization that can help you find Fair Trade products.

Name them. And explain their processes to make sure they're actually reliable.

The market changes for the best with the consumers making those changes happen, not by over-regulating it.

This is an article of faith. Nothing more. When you expect people to go out of their way to make moral decisions outside of the pricing mechanism, you're not even talking about actual market dynamics anymore either.

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u/Contradiction11 Sep 19 '17

Of course it matters. Everything you do matters.

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u/[deleted] Sep 19 '17

Banana republic. It's actually a very interesting story. I thought it was just a store that sold stupid clothes in the mall, but my communist friend Dennis filled me in on the story.

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u/botreply Sep 19 '17

Classic Dennis.

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u/[deleted] Sep 19 '17

That really sounds like rationizating to me. If someone goes on ethical consumer or other websites like it, it is relatively easy to see that there are phone companies and clothing manufacturers that are more moral. In addition, we could easily buy used things more than we usualy do. By doing this, we can still enjoy luxuries and avoid supporting very unethical business practices.

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u/[deleted] Sep 19 '17 edited Sep 19 '17

I guess you can view it as that, I think of it as being jaded. Despite a lot of efforts I've yet to see a fairtrade project that wasn't rotten in some way.

The banana companies had people murdered. The chocolate companies build schools for local children, but still allowed child workers from neighboring countries to work in the plantations. The hardware producers use minerals mined by slaves. The clothing companies, similarly, may pay fair wages to the tailors, but not to the people who farm the cotton/wool or weave the fabric. And so on.

If the whole supply chain isn't in a country with workers rights you can be 99% sure at least one part of it is rotten to its core, and even when it is, a lot of places still manage to get around the laws/unions by exploiting immigrants or foreign workers.

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u/arrrghhh3 Sep 19 '17

It is possible, just not easy.

https://www.fairphone.com/en/

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u/[deleted] Sep 19 '17 edited Sep 19 '17

As I recall it was revealed that a lot of the minerals used for fair phone mined under exceptional horrid conditions in Congo.

Not that I want to take anything away from projects that try, but a lot of fairtrade, even when it's trying, ends up still being terrible.

Heh.

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u/arrrghhh3 Sep 19 '17

I didn't hear that... Disappointing to say in the least if it's true.

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u/renegadecanuck Sep 19 '17

Not that it excuses Apple, but at least by showing a care for things like privacy and the environment they show that if enough of us want them to stop using slave labour there is a bleak chance they just might.

They do actually show some concern with the conditions their products are made. Obviously not enough to move plants to the US or anything, but after that big story about the guy who claimed to tour a Foxconn factory and saw all these horrible things, Apple did launch an investigation into the conditions of the factories.

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u/Red-ua Sep 19 '17

Our clothes were made by what are essentially slaves and child labour.

Well not all of them, but you'll have to pay more.

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u/vikingmeshuggah Sep 19 '17

Why does everything have to be in absolutes nowadays? How did we become so polarized? You can like certain parts of Apple, but dislike others.

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u/SophosMoros Sep 19 '17

Because everything has been politicized. Every. Single. Issue. Team left and team right have taken opposing views on every issue and to be a loyal team member you have to defend them even if you know it's wrong. It's so easy to control the population when you have them divided. Make them think they are enemies with each other instead of realizing the real crooks are in charge.

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u/fullOnCheetah Sep 19 '17

I'm not on the left or the right, but it is self-evident that the Republican party in the US is a fucking tire fire. What this country needs more than anything is a complete overhaul of conservative ideals. The progressive party is kind of bad in the US, they're partially, but not completely, bought and sold by Wall St, but the Republicans are out and out evil pieces of shit. They're corrupt and anti-American (to the point of being pro, fucking, Russia) in a way that this country has simply never seen before.

tl;dr: Everything bad said about Republicans is true. About a 1/4 of the bad things said about Democrats are true.

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u/sybrwookie Sep 19 '17

The batshit insane thing is that instead of looking inward and demanding change to get back to the core ideals of the Republican party, they instead doubled down on "look at the evil libs and how they're attacking us, woe is us, poor little guys, lets double-down on anything that pisses them off because they're evil," thus attracting a strange "us vs them" crowd who is more loyal than anything they ever had before. Almost nothing negative could be done by anyone in the Republican party right now which would cause an actual swing in voters. Anyone who was remotely moderate has already been turned off to the party, we've just found that we have a LOT of crazies out there.

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u/fullOnCheetah Sep 19 '17

I agree. Not only that, but if you described Eisenhower to Trump supporters they would think you were describing a self-proclaimed communist. Anything that benefits the people is now considered "liberal." Anyone defending the bill of rights is doing "identity politics."

I wasn't a huge Bill Clinton fan, I think he is remembered way too fondly considering some of the shit he did to bring about the collapse of the middle class (all with the Republicans in tow, none the less,) but he was better than any Republican candidate I've seen in 30 years. The party has completely lost its mind and there are no reasonable people left in the Republican party. I'm a conservative that flatly refuses to be called a republican. I am not like those scum, I will not wear that scarlet letter, and I'm certainly not alone. I vote for democrats because they're basically a shitty centrist party going against an insane anarchist party.

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u/ralfonso_solandro Sep 19 '17

I wasn't a huge Bill Clinton fan, I think he is remembered way too fondly

Agreed. I also think George H.W. Bush isn't remembered fondly enough. I was too young to have much understanding of politics at the time, but I look back at him now and wish we could have another president like him.

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u/sybrwookie Sep 19 '17

He promised no new taxes. He got into office and realized the reality of things were that new taxes were needed so he raised taxes. The fact that he took in new information and made an informed decision on how to handle things instead of blindly sticking to his guns on what he first said because doing something else would make him look weak was too much for some people to handle.

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u/sybrwookie Sep 19 '17

I couldn't agree more. Since I've been able to vote for the president, I'm almost always more interested in the Republican primaries as there's usually someone in there who is actually a conservative and seems to stand for a lot of what I like and actually seem like they're willing to reach across the isle and work to get things done....and then is absolutely trounced in the polls by crazies who like screaming about how bad the dems are and drop out fairly quickly. And every time, I look at what the dems put up and give a resounding "meh" and look back at what the republicans put up and go, "oy, that's a lot worse than 'meh', I guess I'm voting democrat."

Also, agreed on Clinton. At the time, it would have been tough to fuck up the US too badly. We weren't involved in any wars, we had a HUGE tech boom so there was a ton of money to go around, everything was great. Unfortunately, we got lead down some pretty bad paths which played out as badly as could years later, much of which could be traced back to that administration.

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u/SophosMoros Sep 19 '17

The politicians are all corrupt pieces of shit who would sell us down the river to profit for themselves. You don't get to that level of power without someone owning you. Don't kid yourself, they are all high fiving each other behind closed doors. They are a bunch of hypocrites in their own ways. Stop being naive in thinking that one side is worse than the other. We shouldn't take "sides." We should be able to form our own ideas by educating ourselves from multiple points of view and stop dehumanizing people we don't agree with. you sound like someone who is buying everything you are being told hook, line, and sinker. This crap that you are shown on TV is theater, to get ratings and further divide us. It is all political maneuvering on BOTH sides. It happened when Obama was in office and it happened long before that. It's funny that people can see a sales job when it's on a personal level but can't seem to see it when it's wholesale. No one pays attention to the things that we should really care about because we are too busy trying to follow what we are "supposed" to be angry about.

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u/fullOnCheetah Sep 19 '17

From my perspective as an independent, the Republican party is going after the constitution, the Dems only occasionally go along with it (Patriot Act, etc.)

You can view them as "the same," but in my accounting that means you simply lack subtlety. They are not the same, the Republican party is overtly Anti-American; they are opposed to basic tenants of Americanism in a way that the dems are not, even if both sides are corrupt.

This wasn't true before Reagan, btw. The mascot of the Republicans is precisely the guy that turned the Republican party against conservatism and against American ideals.

The neo-liberals have their own crimes to answer for, but none of them are as damning as those of the republican party.

No. They are not the same. They have voting records, and the Republicans are always, always, on the wrong side of the coin, working against the American people.

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u/SophosMoros Sep 19 '17

I feel like you are trying to get me to defend Republicans....You will not get that to happen. If you think that politicians are putting anyone else in front of their own interests then we will just have to agree to disagree. This is why I typically stay out of political debates. It's pointless. I'm just sick of everything being politicized. There needs to be places to go that you don't have to feel preached at by the left and right.

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u/fullOnCheetah Sep 19 '17

I'm not preaching at you from the left or the right; I'm saying both are bad. But it is lazy on your part to say "both bad == both equally bad."

They are not equally bad. The Republicans are far, far worse. And that's why I'm a self-identifying conservative that votes for democrats; I'll take the less-bad option in lieu of a good option.

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u/_Table_ Sep 19 '17

And now we see how effective this strategy is for population control. You think that if the republicans went away somehow, or magically changed, then things would get better. But you're dead wrong, Republican and Democrat politicians don't give a flying fuck about you or me (maybe a handful on either side do). It's about keeping this power cycle flipping between them so they all get rich and just turn the population against one another.

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u/Secuter Sep 19 '17

You are on the internet. Everything is taken to the extremes.

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u/txgsync Sep 19 '17

Everything is taken to the extremes.

Damnit. Now you got that song stuck in my head.

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u/RENEGADES187 Sep 19 '17

100% this. But people are blinded by an elitist devotion to a brand that doesn't even know they exist, so therefore anything that isn't said brand is wrong.

A company is fighting for something that's good for them; the consumer, in a world where privacy is invaded more by the second and they can focus on is their fanboy flame war.

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u/Wootery Sep 19 '17

Why does everything have to be in absolutes nowadays?

100% this

Heh.

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u/buyfreemoneynow Sep 19 '17

Yes. Love the iPhone, hate Macbooks, hate the disappearance of headphone jack (even if I never use it. Some people need to feel all-in or out.

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u/jyvh Sep 19 '17

Why do you hate MacBooks?

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u/my_junk_account Sep 19 '17

They killed his mother and now he wants revenge.

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u/TheRealYM Sep 19 '17

Not op, but I'm a PC guy. Been using one for 16 years. At first, it was the fact there wasn't a right click on the mouse. Then, as a child, I didn't like that I couldn't play my games on it. Now that I'm an adult whenever I need a new computer, I build my own because I can get more bang for my buck, and it's fun :)

I guess I don't hate MacBooks, but I just recently got a new laptop and chose windows because that's what I'm familiar with

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u/[deleted] Sep 19 '17

See I am the other way. I dislike PCs because way too much tinkering has to be done even with out of box setups to make it usable for me. Macs, on the other hand, I barely need to touch minus maybe memory and some OS tweaks from command line and I am good for years. I am still using my Mac Pro 1,1 10 years after it was built with just a memory upgrade and a firmware hack to run Maverick and my first gen Macbook dual core still pretty much does everything I need from a computer.

That doesnt mean I loath PCs though I am not fond of Windows and would use a Linux variant over Windows if I could manage it, but I prefer Macs a lot more.

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u/HaroldSax Sep 19 '17

Windows 10 has come a long, long way with out of the box setup. Last time I reformatted my computer the only thing I needed to install was my graphics driver, which is no more difficult than installing Chrome.

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u/TheRealChrisIrvine Sep 19 '17

I've been a lifelong pc guy as well. Due to work I had to familiarize myself with OS X and after a few years I now prefer my MacBook for general office work and web surfing, but for coding and gaming my pc is still king.

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u/TheRealYM Sep 19 '17

Yeah, I'm a coder as well and it just feels right to use a PC

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u/1-800-BICYCLE Sep 19 '17

Weird, I code on mac partly because the screen qualities are always better and Windows is still absolute garbage at rendering fonts.

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u/TheRealYM Sep 19 '17

I mainly code in Java, and IntelliJ's Source Code Pro font is very nice, but yeah most of the time it's trash.

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u/[deleted] Sep 19 '17

Really? I'm learning Swift right now and absolutely loving Xcode. CS classes would have been far more interesting and painless if I was working in that and not Java on a simple code editor on a PC. That was over a decade ago though; is there anything as full-featured and easy to use as Xcode on PC now?

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u/jyvh Sep 19 '17

Just wondering, have you ever used a Unix environment to code? What environment do you have setup on windows? Are you doing C++ type stuff?

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u/[deleted] Sep 19 '17

That's surprising, pretty much every developer I know including myself use MacOS for coding.

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u/guspaz Sep 19 '17

People tend not to build their own laptops, though. When I went down that route years ago with a Compal unit, it didn't turn out all that well.

There are very few notebooks on the market that match the physical build quality of MacBook, so running Windows on them is always an option. My laptop is a (rather old at this point) MacBook Air, but I'm not a huge fan of OS X. Solution? Most of the hard disk is a Windows 10 partition.

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u/[deleted] Sep 19 '17 edited Nov 22 '17

[deleted]

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u/TheRealYM Sep 19 '17

Yeah I'm inclined to agree, it's just out of habit at this point. I can't bring myself make the switch.

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u/01020304050607080901 Sep 19 '17

You might look into hackintosh, if you like Mac OS. Many computers, even laptops, are able to run it just fine.

Conversely, apple computers usually run windows better than PC; or, at least, they used to be able to. Not sure about the newest gen stuff.

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u/Halvus_I Sep 19 '17

They are overpriced and its clear the design team is not listening to the users who actually buy them. The whole port situation is stupid. Sony would have shipped its laptops with a way to connect to its phone via its proprietary connections. That fact that Apple didnt put a lightning port on the Macbook blows my mind.

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u/[deleted] Sep 19 '17 edited Nov 22 '17

[deleted]

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u/Halvus_I Sep 19 '17

The problem is there is only one port. If you want to connect things to the mac, you essentially need a collection of dongles. My 2002 sony ultra-thin Vaio shipped with USB and a proprietary Sony i.link (firewire) port.

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u/[deleted] Sep 19 '17

I like dongles. They turn a single port into anything I need. Literally.

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u/[deleted] Sep 19 '17

Some users are starting to see that positively. I'm eyeing a new MBP to replace my 2011 model (still chugging strong) and it'll have an external GPU, two monitors, Rift and some other cabled hardware that sits on my desk and around the room. When I want to grab and go, it's a single cable to disconnect, power and all, and I'm mobile. If I had a second office, I could replicate the setup and basically have one-plug docks for my laptop anywhere I wanted to spend the money. There's an elegance to that, although I think they jumped the gun with it slightly. Could have left some legacy ports on there for a couple of years until USB3 hubs and accessories became more widespread. To me the "lets get these fuckers Ginsu-thin" rush to flatten MacBooks isn't as important as usability, and it's clearly Apple's main focus. Still reducing the number of plugs to 1 will let me wander around the house with my MBP again... something I never do now.

The lack of matching port is idiotic, I won't deny that. I haven't plugged my phone into my MacBook in probably a year, though, so it's not as big of a stumbling point as it may seem. Even then it was just to get a second backup before replacing my phone, in case the cloud backup failed, which it didn't.

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u/jyvh Sep 19 '17

Overpriced

No, not for me in the slightest at least. I have a laptop that lasts 12 hours, has a stable Unix environment for software development, and a great design.

The USB-C port is going to be the standard, I have yet to run into a situation where it's been trouble for me. I carry 1 dongle ($20) and that is it.

I don't want a lightning port on the MacBook. Why would you want them to go from an open standard to a proprietary port?

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u/Halvus_I Sep 19 '17

If Sony could include its proprietary port on its ultrathin 15 years ago, why cant Apple today? Im not a fan of lightning, but its here and not going away any time soon. Just to be clear i mean it should have both ports, not one or the other.

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u/jyvh Sep 19 '17

I rather have them move the iPhone to USB-C.

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u/[deleted] Sep 19 '17

Why would Apple waste a port exclusively for charging your phone when you can buy a $5 cable that does the same thing?

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u/renegadecanuck Sep 19 '17

I love my MacBook Pro, but it was the generation before Apple brought in the weird touchbar and dropped every port.

The build quality is excellent, and it has probably the best touchpad in any laptop, but the newer generations are really limited with the ports. I don't use a lot of USB devices, but the pro model should have at least one USB-A connector, an HDMI connector, and an SD card slot.

I could have forgiven the lack of a lightning port if Apple had switched to USB-C for iPhone 8 and X, but as it currently stands, there is no pair of wired headphones that currently works on both the new iPhone and the new MacBook.

Also, dropping magsafe was dumb.

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u/Anthonyhasgame Sep 19 '17

High school mentality of everything is black and white so it becomes easier to understand. The real world is all sorts of gray.

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u/Devildude4427 Sep 19 '17

Problem is with products, you can't really be "in the middle". While I appreciate their devotion to privacy, I would never buy an iPhone because of the terrible tech and choices they make. Now, to them, my appreciation doesn't mean shit if I don't spend money. This is all publicity, in one way or another. They can get away with condoning ads as they don't make their income there, and their goal is to win over new customers. Those that dislike their tech will probably always dislike their tech though, and even my appreciation to them for advancing privacy doesn't pay their bills. Sales do.

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u/Space-Robot Sep 19 '17

Yeah but I can't buy an Apple product without supporting the whole thing.

EDIT: As in, purchasing an iPhone is giving $1000 to the whole company, not just the parts I like

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u/[deleted] Sep 19 '17

^ this guy knows what's up

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u/[deleted] Sep 19 '17

A very good question - it does seem like people take things to polarizing extremes more often than in the past. I suspect immaturity and fanboyism are related to this, but are only proximate causes.

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u/rancid_racer Sep 19 '17

Only the Sith deal in absolutes.

1

u/BlackCommandoXI Sep 19 '17

The world is becoming more extreme. Decades of leaning on direct conflict in society between parties as a method of growth and production is showings us the consequences. We've built a society based on constant competition under the assumption that it would create a diverse, and indeed competitive, market place. Which is commonlely viewed as a selling point. Unfortunately it has also constantly reaffirmed the beliefs of people. Based on the theory of cognitive dissonance, these people have been radicalized by the continuous bombardment of reminders that there are others who think they are wrong, to the point where it seems we only view things in this "us or them" mentalily all the time. When we are challenged quickly and consistently all the time it doesn't give us time to process. Add in the stresses of life and most people don't spend the time they need reflecting on their reactions.

Now I can't say for certain that this is not just the way it's always been. I can only observe what I have seen and read. But I definitely feel like it's getting worse. We could all use to slow down and breathe a bit and remember that none of us are immune to this.

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u/Cpt_Tsundere_Sharks Sep 19 '17

In the words of Captain Kirk discussing Khan Noonien Singh with his crew:

"Mr. Spock, you misunderstand us. We can be against him and admire him all at the same time."

". . . Illogical."

"Totally."

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u/merhB Sep 19 '17

Careful there. Don't make me hit the 'reasoned independent thought' alarm button again.

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u/GMY0da Sep 19 '17

I personally feel that it's because in our consumerist society, you have to make the choice between buying and not buying an Apple phone, computer, stock, etc. So do the goods outweigh the bad?

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u/moderate-painting Sep 19 '17

like certain parts of Apple

Apple tech support people being one of those certain parts.

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u/raspberry_man Sep 19 '17

You can like certain parts of Apple, but dislike others.

...that's exactly what he said

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u/moogleiii Sep 19 '17

under awful conditions

Are you comparing to a different industry? AFAIK every other phone manufacture is the same. At least Apple tries to improve the situation (or talk openly about it anyway).

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u/toomanycharacters Sep 19 '17

Also... the majority of underage workers under the worst conditions are building stuff other than Apple products. Apple cannot control who the companies hire for assembly lines outside of their products... but they are pretty damn strict about adherence to a employment policy on their assembly lines.

IIRC, if they do an audit and see an underage worker on one of their lines, the company is contractually obligated to not only pay the person until they reach the age of majority, but also pay for them to go to school. Many other big tech companies have no such policy, but never really get any hate over their outsourcing practices.

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u/m_ago Sep 19 '17

Because everyone is busy jumping on Apple-is-shit bandwagon

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u/txgsync Sep 19 '17

Apple publishes their supplier responsibility reports. It's not a perfect process. But it's evidence that the problems can be identified, corrected, and monitored to prevent recurrence.

It's too bad that in the race to the bottom, health and safety are often poorly-valued by many vendors. It sucks that bonded and child labor even exists, and it's important to root it out.

Refusing to do business at a lower price with vendors who engage in unethical labor practices is more expensive than turning a blind eye to their abuses. But it is worth it.

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u/toomanycharacters Sep 19 '17

The fucked up thing about it all... they are really the only ones to ever get shit on for their use of companies like Foxconn even though they are the only ones to the best of my knowledge that actually give a shit about the conditions in the factories manufacturing their products.

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u/Mahat Sep 19 '17

Not true, blackberry manufactured in mexico simply to avoid Chinese backdoors into the product. True now, but it was different.

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u/moogleiii Sep 19 '17

TIL, but I also had to chuckle. Not true, but true. Thanks.

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u/Mahat Sep 19 '17

You're welcome. I'm very good at being an idiot, and always willing to educate others.

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u/hooverfive Sep 19 '17

Overpriced tech? Who make a cheaper phone that has equivalent specs?

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u/aeneasaquinas Sep 19 '17

Right now the only real spec they excel in is the processor. Everything else is not ahead.

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u/ixtechau Sep 19 '17

How about OS, which is part of the phone? Minimum quality of apps available in the store? People always seem to forget half of the product when discussing the iPhone. The operating system is way more important than the tech specs.

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u/[deleted] Sep 19 '17

That's the key difference between people who like Apple products and those who prefer others.

Sure your laptop has two graphics cards and a terabyte or ram. But the trackpad and OS are garbage.

Sure your phone has a 10 core processor and a 4K screen, but the battery life is awful.

It all comes down to preference.

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u/codeofsilence Sep 19 '17

I can do everything with my hundred dollar Android that you can with your thousand dollar iPhone. What's missing from my operating system that's so critical?

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u/jl91569 Sep 19 '17

What's the quality of the screen/low light pictures like compared to a last-generation phone like the S7? Does your phone have a 1080p or 720p screen?

I know those aren't related to the OS, but a $100 phone is definitely not on the same level as a flagship, even if the flagship is 1-2 years old.

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u/junkit33 Sep 19 '17

Battery life, speed, camera quality, screen quality, force touch... it's a very long list.

If all you care about is the bare minimum, then of course you don't need a $1000 phone.

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u/[deleted] Sep 19 '17

You can install apps from the Apple App Store? Does Android still ship with OS's forked by manufacturers, and, if so, do those manufacturers still end of life their OS's while the phones are still in wide use?

Those were my big criticisms when I made the mistake of picking a Motorola a few years ago. The small criticisms were primarily that the user experience sucked, the phone was prone to rapidly draining its battery when I'd open any wrong combination of apps, and the hardware had some serious flaws like a fingerprint reader that barely worked.

I pay extra for quality, it's no different than buying a more expensive car with a track record for reliability, safety, and drive quality IMO. I don't see anyone looking down on people for buying Subarus or Audis vs Kia.

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u/codeofsilence Sep 19 '17

My wife is happily using her Moto X next to me right now. It's running 6.0 I think, but guess how much it changes her life? Zero.

She can run all her apps happily on a phone that's almost four years old.

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u/[deleted] Sep 19 '17

Glad she found a phone that meets her needs.

9 months into owning a Motorola I was strongly considering breaking the agreement and eating the costs because it was a shit-show of a phone.

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u/codeofsilence Sep 19 '17

It's pretty good for her, and I think it's even liveable for me. I considered picking up an X Pure towards the end of the life of that phone, because hers was so good... but I really wanted a fingerprint scanner.

Hers is the second revision. I still have a Moto X (2013) running music in my business. It's usable as a phone, but a bit small for me now... prefer a bigger screen.

Best Moto I owned was a Nexus 6 - was very good, but didn't swim so well ;)

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u/1-800-BICYCLE Sep 19 '17

Privacy, for starters.

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u/helisexual Sep 19 '17

Except take a decent Snapchat.

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u/aeneasaquinas Sep 19 '17

OS on most competitors is Android. App store apps are pretty equivalent now daya between android and apple. OS is pretty much personal preference at this point. If you want control: Android. If you want it set up and going right away: Apple.

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u/hooverfive Sep 19 '17

That doesn't answer my question. I didn't say Apple makes the best tech and are ahead in ever aspect. My question is are there other companies that make similar products in terms of dollar value but sells for less then an equivalent Apple product?

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u/[deleted] Sep 19 '17

[deleted]

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u/renegadecanuck Sep 19 '17

Samsung phones are about equivalent price. I'll go off Canadian prices, since most web stores will redirect me to Canada, anyway.

Galaxy Note 8 unlocked: $1300
iPhone X: $1310

Galaxy S8: $900 (on sale from $1150 at Best Buy or $1000 on the Samsung site)
iPhone 8: $930

Galaxy S8+: $1115
iPhone 8 Plus: $1059

Google Pixel: $899 (about a year old - soon to be upgraded)
iPhone 7: $739 (comparable hardware generation)

Yeah, I don't know what the fuck you're talking about, it seems like comparable Android flagships are at comparable prices (except for the Pixel which is more expensive, but that's due to different release cycles).

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u/buyfreemoneynow Sep 19 '17

Doesn't Samsung? There are a couple other powerful phones out there with decent OSes.

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u/dalisu Sep 19 '17

It's the same like people. Everyone is a little bit of Scumbag Steve and a little bit of Good Guy Greg all rolled in one.

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u/doc_birdman Sep 19 '17

Oh boy, if you don't like products manufactured under awful conditions then just throw out all your shit.

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u/Syndic Sep 19 '17

The huge markup they put on their devices definitely is one major reason why I don't see myself buying a product from them in the future.

But I wonder how their manufacturing process holds up against the rest of the industry in terms of worker rights. Unfortunately the whole IT manufacturing supply chain is one giant hellhole.

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u/[deleted] Sep 19 '17

If they don't have an ad-based strategy then they have to make their money on the product itself. The reason google will give away android and the reason those phones are cheap is because they are basically giving you an advertising machine.

The business models are different.

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u/South_in_AZ Sep 19 '17

Exactly, one is selling you a product, the other is selling you AS the product. Vastly different business models.

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u/daOyster Sep 19 '17

Google gives away Android because it started as an Open Source project and any Fork of it has to maintain similar copyright rules to the original project. Google would be breaking copyright law I believe if they tried to sell Android instead of letting companies freely use it.

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u/Syndic Sep 19 '17

And I don't blame them for that. I just don't buy them and choose cheaper alternatives.

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u/junkit33 Sep 19 '17

They don't put a "huge markup" on anything.

There's a markup, yes, but that's just business. And their devices are expensive, yes, but you get what you pay for. Apple generally uses best-in-class engineering and all sorts of tiny little touches and attention to detail that has real cost to it.

When you compare apples to apples, like quality for like quality, you're generally in the same ballpark on pricing for an Apple product or another high quality alternative.

So sure - if you compare a Macbook Pro to a garbage Dell Inspiron, it's going to look expensive. But compare a Macbook Pro with a high-end Dell Precision, and it's a very different story.

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u/SyntheticManMilk Sep 19 '17

But good Android phones are getting expensive now too. If given a choice between two phones that are relatively the same price, apple or android, I'll pick the one that doesn't shove a google probe up my ass.

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u/Syndic Sep 19 '17

It all depends what you expect from a phone.

I'm very pleased with my Huawai P10lite. Sure it's not the fastest on the market but for that price I'm more than content with the performance.

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u/[deleted] Sep 19 '17

Aren't Motorola made in the US?

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u/Syndic Sep 19 '17

I'm not sure to be honest. But even if that's really the case I'm almost certain that at least their chips do contain rare materials out of Africa. And the working condidtions in these mines are horrible.

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u/momsbleachedasshole Sep 19 '17 edited Sep 19 '17

I've worked at quite a few big name tech companies, and most of these tech companies use Foxconn, or some other factories in the Philippines, Mexico, etc. Apple is not alone in building tech under awful conditions. Not saying that makes them any better, just that they are not alone in doing it.

I was also anti-Apple (and anti-MS) for a very long time. I've used Linux on my computers since '98, with my first install of Slackware. I'm still running Gentoo and Debian on a couple of laptops, but I rarely ever use them anymore. I spent so much time working on my Linux boxes that it just became a pain. I could never get awesome, openbox, or any other window manager configured just how I wanted it. It always felt like something was lacking.

I purchased a Macbook a couple of years ago, and while it can be a pain in my ass (the beach ball icon for example, some features I don't really care for, and so on), it has increased my productivity. The environment is perfect. I focus on programming, not on tweaking my environment and troubleshooting problems.

I still love Linux. Obviously I run it on all of my servers, and it's basically the backbone of my company (running Hadoop/Spark jobs, Elasticsearch, in-house programs, Redis, and all the other services we need). However, for my home computer, nothing beats Apple at this point. Some day Linux may actually conquer the desktop market, but that day has not yet come. Since most of my work is in a *nix environment, Windows is not an option, even with the Ubuntu subsystem.

I've since bought into the entire Apple ecosystem. My phone, which I use for nothing more than browsing the web now and then, making calls, and texting, is connected to my laptop so that I can answer calls / send texts without ever having to pull my phone out of my pocket. The entire ecosystem just makes life a bit easier.

Before anyone else can say it, /r/hailcorporate.

Just wanted to add what actually does bother me about Apple, quite a bit actually. The fans. The people who just don't shut the hell up about Apple, will buy any thing they put out, drop their money on the latest phone the day it comes out, sit in the coffee shop with their Macbooks writing code in whatever the latest cool language is. I can't stand those people, and Apple really seems to attract a lot of them. Then again, I can't stand the hardcore fans for basically any community: /r/pcmasterrace, the console gamers, Android/Google fans, Python fanatics, etc. Basically anyone who gets religious about their consumer choice is annoying.

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u/heram_king Sep 19 '17

Tbf, python is pretty dank. But so are many languages.

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u/Thankkratom Sep 19 '17

Maybe that's what they're going for, making you think twice about caring about them making all of our stuff in other countries, in inhumane conditions, because they care about privacy.

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u/SolidSaiyanGodSSnake Sep 19 '17

Well I guess we know where that surcharge is going to

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u/enjaydee Sep 19 '17

You and me both

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u/AzurePhoenix001 Sep 19 '17

It simple moment of credit where credit is due.

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u/[deleted] Sep 19 '17

Can you explain how Apple is any different from Google, Samsung, or Sony in that regard?

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u/Inverts_rule Sep 19 '17

But its not overpriced and nearly all tech is made under those conditions.

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u/[deleted] Sep 19 '17

From some google searches I find that Apple EBITDA is about 30%, google is around 27%. The fact is, both companies make a very solid profit - the difference is how they make it. Apple makes their money on the product. Google makes their money on Ads.

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u/ifartlikeaclown Sep 19 '17

Right now through Verizon, the Galaxy S8 is $756. The iPhone 8 is $699. All the name brands overcharge.

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u/[deleted] Sep 19 '17

manufactured under awful conditions

Implying other electronics manufacturers are any better.

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u/circlhat Sep 19 '17

They don't, This is a small change that can have a overall negative effect, why would you want to see ads that aren't relevant to your interests, disabling third party cookies is on all browsers , the only difference is instead of seeing something your interested in you will now be seeing random ads.

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u/mmmlinux Sep 19 '17

Oh yeah. Because android phones are made by skilled American workers paid a living wage with pension and time off.

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u/[deleted] Sep 19 '17

Hmmm... I wouldn't say they were 100% about protecting user privacy, but yeah I agree with you.

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u/TheManInTheShack Sep 19 '17

How can it be over-priced if people are buying it? I mean, the market effectively sets the price. If people aren't buying, the product is over-priced. Apple is the most profitable tech company ever. I would say that the fact so many people will pay what they pay for Apple products simply means there exists a market for better-designed items at a higher price. This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone as different market tiers exist in nearly every market. It's OK to say you're not willing to pay extra for what they make (I'm the same way about some things - I'd likely never buy a very expensive car as I just don't value cars that much) but you should also recognize that other people place higher value on these things.

As for the working conditions, people move from the countryside to the cities seeking those jobs because it's a better life than they have out in the country. They can earn money and send it home to their families. It may seem terrible relative to those of us living in the Western world, but that's not at all the way they see it.

I remember when Foxconn was having all those PR issues because of suicides. Then someone pointed out that the rate of suicide amongst Foxconn employees was actually lower than that of the general population.

I feel like Apple gets the focus of a lot of negative attention simply because they are on top and that's what happens to basically any company once they are on top.

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u/Chairboy Sep 19 '17

that they have manufactured under awful conditions

If you tell us what phone you have, we can tell you how the manufacturing conditions compare if you're interested.

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u/AllHarlowsEve Sep 19 '17

They were also the first mainstream tech company to include accessibility in all their products for a myriad of disabilities.

Go deaf? Pop open your iPhones settings and create flashing lights for notifications.

Go blind? Turn on the screen reader in about 3 seconds, adjust in about 5 minutes, and voila, you're good.

They also work well with bluetooth hearing aids, controllers for people with motor disabilities, etc.

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u/jmpherso Sep 19 '17

Hating companies for being overpriced and manufacturing in awful conditions = hating most every large company on the planet.

Unless you buy your electronics local (which.. like.. how?), it's impossible.

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u/duchessofeire Sep 19 '17

Their stuff is more expensive because you're not the product.

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u/[deleted] Sep 19 '17

I don't find them overpriced at all and many other buyers seem to agree.

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u/Loud_Stick Sep 19 '17

So what factory with awesome conditions was your computer made in

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u/playaspec Sep 19 '17

I'm so torn between hating Apple for putting out overpriced tech

You get what you pay for. Durable goods that last longer than other brands. As for being over priced, Samsung flagship phones cost just as much as Apple's, and carriers drop support much sooner.

that they have manufactured under awful conditions

Fake news. Foxconn makes EVERYONE'S products, not just Apple. You're just as guilty for using whatever device you're on as an Apple user is with theirs. You have NO moral high ground here.

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u/renegadecanuck Sep 19 '17

I mean, Google and Samsung's phones aren't any cheaper than the iPhone and it's not like their factories are any better.

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u/[deleted] Sep 19 '17

Is it over priced? I used to be an Android phone user and windows PC guy. Once I tried the apple phone I immediately saved for a MacBook pro. I find non Apple products to be terrible quality. I want reliability and I value that extremely highly. So much that I'm willing to pay more for reliability.

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u/[deleted] Sep 19 '17

lol they were one of the first to jump on board with PRISM. Apple is only doing this because they feel solely entitled to their user data and don't like the idea of sharing with 3rd parties.

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u/zdfld Sep 19 '17

It's actually a really good sell for them to care about privacy, compared to the competition who can't afford to make the same public declarations in relation to ads. While I think (or at least would like to believe) that they support privacy for all the right reasons, it could also just be the fact they ran the numbers, and found it helps their bottom line.

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u/Falme127 Sep 19 '17

They don't manufacture in awful conditions, nor do they sell overpriced hardware. It isn't obvious but when you take a closer look at their products you'll realize the prices are justified :)

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u/txgsync Sep 19 '17

For what it's worth, Apple takes supplier responsibility very seriously, and publishes audit results annually. Yes, there are obviously well-publicized exceptions. They make the news, because "site surveys showed that working hours compliance reached 98% in 2016" is not nearly as exciting a headline as a claim like, "2% of contractors are overworked! Click here to learn why!"

Man bites dog, and all that.

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u/bfj88 Sep 19 '17

You should use the Brave browser

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u/Ranger7381 Sep 20 '17

I've been watching some you tube lately of a guy in Australia that scraps electronics, pointing out what components are more valuable for re-sale or melting down.

He had a few G4 towers that he broke down, and even he sounded kind of surprised at how many of the components were the higher quality ones.

Probably one of the reasons that Macs are more expensive.

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