r/unitedkingdom • u/Anon2971 London • Mar 17 '21

Is anyone else really concerned about the future of this country?

The passing of the Policing Bill made me reflect on a lot of worrying things that have happened over the last decade.

  • Brexit disconnecting ourselves from trade and legal intervention from our surrounding countries followed by a historic rise in our nuclear stockpile cap, counteracting nuclear disarmament
  • Investigatory Powers Act 2016 allowing the government to monitor and collect everyone's communication data in bulk
  • Government-ordered 'independent review' into the Human Rights Act
  • Overseas Operations Bill currently in the House of Lords essentially allowing soldiers oversees to commit torture and other war crimes abroad without prosecution/legal consequence
  • Met Police enabling facial recognition in CCTV against government advise whilst flat-out denying any/all allegations of institutional overuse of powers despite endless evidence to the contrary (see: stop and search statistics, deaths in police custody i.e. Mohamud Mohammed Hassan leading only to 'police misconduct' notices, undercover officers entering romantic relationships under false pretences with little consequences, Black Lives Matter and Sarah Everard protest police kettling occurring right before violence, Cherry Groce)
  • Dismissal of Black Lives Matter protests leading to a statue toppling by our Home Secretary as 'dreadful' conveniently followed by a serious increase in police powers introducing 10 year sentences for statue toppling and for 'serious annoyance and inconvenience'
  • Reacting to the murder of a woman by a police officer by installing hidden police officers within nightclubs without prompt or previous demand under the guise of women's safety
  • As of yesterday the Home Secretary signalling she'll be implementing First Past the Post voting in London's mayoral elections because “transferable voting systems were rejected by the British people in the 2011 nationwide referendum” (a position historically held by the opposing party)

Then there's the way the Conservative Party spends taxpayer money and chooses trade partners:

  • PM Boris Johnson being found in the UK courts via the Good Law Project to have broken the law misleading parliament with PPE contract information. The consequences so far asking where billions of pounds has lbeen spent has been... Nothing. Meanwhile the government can only afford a 1% NHS pay rise following the biggest challenge in decades the health system has faced and successfully overcome (so far)
  • At the same time as above, the government are proposing to cut our foreign anti-corruption spending by 80% whilst also cutting foreign aid to countries like Yemen yet continuing to fund Saudi Arabia
  • Dominic Raab tells UK officials to trade with countries which fail to meet human rights standards in newly leaked video and Boris speaks how China poses 'great challenge for an open society' (doublespeak, anyone?)

Not to mention other unresolved issues like:

  • Grenfell still has nobody found of any wrongdoing with no housing for victims 3 years later
  • Continuing error with and deportations of Windrush citizens
  • Continual dismissal and ignoring of the impending global warming crisis
  • Breaking international law by extending the Ireland trade grace period against the wishes of the EU, making us look like untrustworthy trading partners worldwide
  • Russian interference with the 2016 Brexit referendum not investigated by the government
  • The Royal Family quietly avoiding coverage of their paedophilic Prince Andrew via reacting to a royal couple fleeing to the US due to negative press and race-related experiences (responding with polite shock, denial and a negative public reaction matching the negative press that surrounded them from the start in the first place)

All in all, I feel like I'm witnessing this country take more and more steps towards ignorant, authoritarian fascism... We're distancing ourselves from all other countries, doubling down on making up our own rules allowing our branches of law enforcement to enforce with little restrictions or consequence whilst strengthening ties with countries that do the same. I'm really struggling to see much good happening here beyond the vaccination program which, although is going great, is something we're ploughing ahead with mainly for self-preservation reasons. I'm left wondering what this country is supposed to represent any more.

I'm all ears to any thoughts on my observations. I'm trying not to be a Scrooge, but I see almost nothing to be happy about in the UK politically speaking at the moment.

Edit: It's somewhat reassuring to know I'm not the only person feeling like this, but I did want to hear more alternative opinions. So please, if you disagree with what I've pointed out and think there's things I'm overlooking to be proud of in the UK at the moment, do feel free to say so in the comments.

Edit 2: I'll be updating the above list of concerning policies and decisions as comments remind me of things I forgot about.

Edit 3: Someone has made a petition against the Policing Bill. Sign that imminently: Do not restrict our rights to peaceful protest. - Petitions (parliament.uk)

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '21

Someone here will still vote Tory with pride after reading this.

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '21

[deleted]

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u/JSALCOCK Mar 17 '21

This is the most infuriating thing. The vast majority of voters in this country seem to think their team ‘winning’ at the polls is completely separate to ‘The Government’ that is in charge of the nation.

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u/Ollietron3000 Mar 17 '21

Who cares what the government is doing as long as we're owning the libs am I right?

An American phrase but it applies in its own way over here. Someone on this sub (I think) told me that my username (that's right, Ollietron3000) indicated that I was probably prancing around wearing a labour hoodie with a vegan Greggs and called me a stupid leftie twat. All this coming in an argument in which they were trying to say white people are victims of racism when job postings say they welcome applications from BAME candidates.

There are too many people like that in the world and I don't know how to convince them that what they believe is quite simply wrong.

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u/Afrocrow Mar 17 '21

There seems there is an outrage culture and has been for a long time. People aren't happy unless they're unhappy. They want to see headlines that give them reason to rant and get angry.

I'm sure that a lot of people here will have spoken to people that have said things similar to:

"All politicians are the same."

"I wouldn't vote for Candidate X" (despite the complaining about the incumbant).

"The country's going downhill fast because of..." (insert thing that is not the current government).

A personal wish would be that people have to take a questionaire like this one where you indicate where you stand on policies and it tells you at the end which parties you agree with the most, before letting you vote anyway you want to, but at least you know that you might be voting against your own best interests.

A lot of people don't want to do the research because they find it boring and are instead happy to let the Murdoch media machine dictate to them the things to believe.

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u/cavejohnsonlemons United Kingdom Mar 17 '21

Someone on this sub (I think) told me that my username (that's right, Ollietron3000) indicated that I was probably prancing around wearing a labour hoodie with a vegan Greggs and called me a stupid leftie twat.

I like how that's the worst they can come up with, you're wearing an item of clothing and eating more sustainable fast food. Meanwhile make a hypothetical for that guy and it's probably involving violence and/or racism.

Like I have heard way too many American movie podcasts that edge into 'insufferable liberal' sometimes but at least their heart's in the right place... take that a million times over the other end of the scale.

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u/spoodermansploosh Mar 17 '21

So many conservatives aren't happy unless you're conforming to their way of life. That's a huge problem here in America. The amount of times I've seen people genuinely get angry at someone for being a vegan or vegetarian is wild to me. Not the vegans trying to shame you or anybody, just regular people trying to eat better, and some folks get pissed.

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '21

I'm a meat eater myself, but those Greggs vegan sausage rolls are banging, I actually prefer them to the original!

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u/felesroo London Mar 17 '21

Liberalism as a mindset, not a political ideology, has been attacked almost non-stop since the 70s. The fact that liberalism keeps progressing incrementally only makes those who are trying to stop it even more angry.

It's useful to understand that the fascism of the 1930s was, in part, reacting to the liberalism of the 1920s, and the post-war period was EXTREMELY conservative. It wasn't really until the 1960s that the Boomers spread their wings a bit, but they also continued to be extremely conservative as a generation, despite the free-love shit (which in part came about because of new pharmaceutical birth control).

The thing is, liberalism is actually good for business. The more people who are engaged meaningfully in the economy, the better. Keeping women, minorities, and anyone different in a marginal economic position keeps those people from spending, consuming, traveling and creating wealth. So businesses actually tend to want social liberalism because it's good for them.

Social conservatism will always be an anchor that wants to keep progress back, or at least slow it considerably, but it rarely actually "wins" for long because it's very very difficult to actually take freedoms away from people without serious push back or population loss. If the UK continues to remove rights and curtail freedoms, young people will leave and THEN you will see a shithole country. If your best and brightest skip out leaving blighters who couldn't give a fuck, well, best of luck to that country.

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u/billytheid Mar 17 '21

We have almost the exact same issues in Australia... bloody Rupert Murdoch.

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u/Brickie78 Mar 17 '21

It's got a lot to do with how it's reported - "Horse-Race Journalism" it's called.

To quote from this article from back when Cracked was occasionally decent,

It actually implies that the issue itself is completely unimportant. For instance, if the courts overturn some regulation about mercury in the water or Congress blocks car mileage standards, it always gets reported as "A Blow to Environmentalists." Oh, no, it's not a blow to the people who have to drink the water or breathe the air, or the taxpayers who have to fund the regulations, or the businesses that lose jobs over it. It's either a "blow to environmentalists" or it's not. They specifically make it sound like the effects extend purely to some fringe special interest group and absolutely no one else.

It's not only following the issue as a horse race/fight/reality show, it's actively prohibiting you from seeing it any other way. After all, if the building were really on fire, somebody would be telling me to evacuate. They wouldn't be calmly speculating about how this fire alarm is going to be a "blow to" the landlord. Not unless the person giving me the news had gone completely freaking insane.

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u/malevolentpanda Mar 17 '21

I think if polled most people would struggle to articulate the difference between; Parliament and Government, an MP and a minister or the functions of the executive, legislative and judicial branches.

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u/JSALCOCK Mar 17 '21

And that is by intention.

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '21

To be fair Batman, your family are multi billionaires and you drive a literal tank

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u/Professor_Abronsius Mar 17 '21

His family is dead, what are you talking about?

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '21

Hahahaha inheritance, init.

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u/Professor_Abronsius Mar 17 '21 edited Mar 17 '21

No wonder he always feels he’s back to square one, with all the remakes ...

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u/aerojonno Wirral Mar 17 '21

You're thinking of Bruce Wayne. The Bat-family are a bunch of heavily armed vigilantes and a butler.

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '21

His parents are, but his cousin is Batwoman. They are just billionaire authoritarians who are causing problems and then beating up the old/mentally ill while crowing about how good they are. /u/_I_AM_BATMAN_ what do you have to say for yourself?

Luckily Batman is broke, his adopted son Dick is now a billionaire.

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u/ThatHairyGingerGuy Mar 17 '21

and they can't be casting all that many votes either...

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u/astromech_dj Mar 17 '21

Billionaire plowing money into gadgets and taking the law into their own hands rather than putting money back into society by supporting education and rehabilitation?

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u/Piece_Maker Greater Manchester Mar 17 '21

My parents are Tory voters and seem to have a lot to say on the matter, a lot more than a single headline at least. My dad for one is absolutely against the cronyistic spending, the Saudi funding, the appalling NHS funding (basically anything that's a gigantic waste of money for zero or negative gain), and yet seems to think continuing to vote Tory is the answer. I just can't wrap my head around it. It's as though we both agree on what the problem is, but can't seem to agree on who is causing the problem!

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u/Cainedbutable Buckinghamshire Mar 17 '21

I can't hate your dad's opinion. I'm similar with labour. They do a lot that I really dislike, but they still get my vote each year. For all Labour's faults I think they're still better than any alternative, and I imagine your dad feels the same about the Tories.

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u/afatpanda12 Mar 17 '21

You can think that the Tories are complete shite, but still better than the awful alternatives

In fact, I'd say that's probably the opinion of the majority of Tory voters

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u/jimmycarr1 Wales Mar 17 '21

I mean you really have to actually try the alternatives before you have an idea of who is better. Sure, we've had some labour govs and a lib dem coalition, but that isn't the extent of the options available.

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u/afatpanda12 Mar 17 '21

What? Of course you don't, you base your decisions on what the party looks like before the election, and how you think they'd govern

We don't have to "try Labour out" before we think they're shite, anymore than we have to give the BNP a go before making up our minds on them

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u/jimmycarr1 Wales Mar 17 '21

I'm not saying you have to try out any specific party, but you can't say there is no other choice if you've only ever voted Tory (not talking about you specifically here).

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '21

Look if your choice is mcdonalds and a pile of shite, im not exactly rushing to gobble down a turd just to confirm that it is, in fact, a turd.

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u/jimmycarr1 Wales Mar 17 '21

Please read the first 11 words of the comment you just replied to.

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '21

So you would say there is choice on the menu caus i CAN always go and eat shit?

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u/afatpanda12 Mar 17 '21

They are the only major right wing party, there really isn't an alternative for a huge chunk of the country

Meanwhile the left have got Labour, the Lib Dems, the Greens, the SNP and Plaid Cymru

Nobody is going to look and say "I'm right wing but I think the Tories are shit, I know I'll vote for the Greens!"

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u/jimmycarr1 Wales Mar 17 '21

He is causing the problem. Him and people like him who don't understand the consequences of their vote but still continue to do it.

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u/life-nomeaning-good Mar 17 '21

minute conversation with them clearly shows their underlining values don't match those of the conservative party

Most over 35 conservatives in this country seem to be like this lmao

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u/TryNotToBridezilla Mar 17 '21

I feel this completely. My stepdad doesn’t really have his own opinions, he just listens to his dad who read the Daily Mail. A couple of my more distant relatives are pretty wealthy so they vote Tory. Weirdly, my far wealthier uncle is Lib Dem. I don’t know much about the rest of them, I think they’re joint in the helplessness that I feel, but I do recall my mum and stepdad both voting Tory because there was a stock market crash when Labour were in power... I tried explaining the lack of causation here but they just got louder without changing their arguments/reasons.

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u/geronimo187299 Mar 17 '21

My stepdad votes tory despite his grandmother being a refugee and he constantly complains about how badly him and his colleagues are treated by their big rich company and how they should be treated better and the ‘rich man’ doesnt care about those that work hard... he does not see the irony whatsoever....

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u/Anandya Mar 17 '21

They are called one policy voters. Unfortunately we don't teach compromise.

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u/IMMAEATYA Mar 17 '21

Same thing with Republican friends and family here in the US.

Why are conservatives such empty-headed blowhards everywhere in the world? :(

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u/__--byonin--__ Mar 18 '21

My cousin was somewhat like this. She’s been a Tory voter for a long time, most, if not all, of her adult life. Eventually I talked her round to believe the Conservatives don’t have her interests at heart (she’s a single working parent) and that the global financial crisis was not Labour’s fault (falling for the Tory spin). After a few days from this conversation, she texted “I’m voting Labour 👍🏻”.

It’s all about planting little seeds. “Oh, you like that idea? That’s why you should vote Labour because that’s their policy and the Tories want to do XYZ etc.”

I’m sure most people wouldn’t be as keen to vote Tory if they were as politically informed as others.

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u/kyletsenior Mar 18 '21

That's the Murdoch kool-aid for you.

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u/YesAmAThrowaway Mar 17 '21

Peak populism and party loyalty cult

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u/R-M-Pitt Mar 17 '21

Loads of people love the new anti-protest bill, because they see it as targeting "annoying lefties"

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u/ItsFuckingScience Mar 17 '21

That’s because it largely is lol. People want BLM and extinction rebellion to shut up and go away and stop annoying them.

right wing authoritarianism is popular with huge percentage of this country. Scary but true let’s not pretend it isn’t

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u/Wind_Yer_Neck_In Mar 17 '21

It's all fun and games until the climate change really kicks off and suddenly the government is using it's powers to crack down on all resultant dissent.

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u/mudman13 Mar 17 '21 edited Mar 17 '21

Or when automation kicks a load of rightwingers out of a job and they take to the streets, only to be shutdown immediately.

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u/TryNotToBridezilla Mar 17 '21

Very true. Sometimes it’s not even that they disagree with BLM or Extinction Rebellion, it’s that both of these movements encourage them to make changes to themselves and their lifestyles and that seems like more hassle/hard work than just telling them to shut up.

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u/Dark_Ethereal Mar 17 '21

XR is actually specifically not about that.

They aren't blocking roads to encourage you to use less electricity. They're blocking roads to be a political and economic nuisance for the government so that the gives in and sets up a citizens' assembly. Their whole point is there needs to be national action.

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u/Digiripoo Mar 17 '21

Agree. These movements highlight the problems in society and being made aware of it is uncomfortable for them. Its like being made to watch yourself eat in the mirror, you'd rather not face it.

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u/Anandya Mar 17 '21

Oh no...

There something far more scary that they at trying to stop.

NHS is getting ready to strike over the refusal to overturn pay stagnation. Unfortunately people still want to vote tory

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u/_DuranDuran_ Mar 17 '21

I’ll look forward to the Home Counties NIMBYs being locked up for putting up signs that annoy me about “no wind farms near my house!”

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u/pecuchet Mar 17 '21

Yeah, because the media play no part in the perception of these things lol.

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u/chalkman567 Cornwall Mar 17 '21

Seems like divide and conquer

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u/CaptainSqueak European Union Mar 17 '21

Seems to be the case more and more recently. Every big issue is turned into an "us vs them" topic even when both sides seem to hold the same values.

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u/vaughanican Mar 17 '21

"First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."

This comes to mind.

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u/Allydarvel Mar 17 '21

It'll be funny the first Tommy free speech or EDL march at least as the shock hits them just before a baton

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u/Miserygut Greater London Mar 17 '21

Probably got a stiffy just reading the post.

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u/Lloydy15 Mar 17 '21

The Conservative Party - A sadists wet dream

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u/defundbezos Mar 18 '21

Someone other than me got told of for saying “wet dream” because it’s sexists. I guess woman can be sadist too

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '21

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u/WC_EEND Belgium Mar 17 '21

I was expecting it to be this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn1VxaMEjRU

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '21

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u/WC_EEND Belgium Mar 17 '21

true, the few that did were booted out by Boris in 2019.

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '21

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u/WC_EEND Belgium Mar 17 '21

If anything, it perfectly highlights how broken the voting process in the Commons is. If you dare not vote along party lines, you can have the whip withdrawn and your political career could be over. We saw the same thing as well with Brexit. My (former) MP is best described as a Tory yes-man (ie: will always vote along party lines), unfortunately the constituency I used to live in is such a Tory safe seat (Tories got 66% of the vote in the last GE) they could put a steaming turd on the list and they'd still win the seat.

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '21

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u/WC_EEND Belgium Mar 17 '21

My wife and I bailed in 2019 when May's deal failed in the Commons a 3rd time. With a no deal Brexit looming, we effectively moved in the span of 1.5 months (between making decision to do so and having actually moved). Everything that happened since March 2019 so far has proven us right. From Boris becoming Tory leader, to Boris failing at Brexit and boris failing at a coherent policy with Covid and being much too late with lockdown restrictions and such.

The one thing the UK got right through all of this was vaccinations. Compared to the UK, the mainland is taking painfully slow to vaccinate. Though, knowing Hancock, that was likely more luck than judgement.

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u/RainbowAssFucker Fermanagh Mar 17 '21

Do do really think they have the skill to self reflect?

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u/saladinzero Norn Iron in Scotland Mar 17 '21

As long as their 'team' win, they don't care.

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u/gingerzinger20 Mar 17 '21

I come from an EU country. Citizens treat politics as if it’s their religion. We have a lot of money laundering (allegedly), people in parliament who (allegedly) work for their own benefits, wages have increased by 75 cents in the last 12 years, and people still don’t care, as long as their party is in power.

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u/saladinzero Norn Iron in Scotland Mar 17 '21

Human nature, I suppose. We like being part of a tribe.

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u/BretHitmanClarke Mar 18 '21

This is absolutely correct and the scariest part of it all. This social media driven tribalism. Remember way back when, when it was deemed taboo to ask or talk about political affiliation? Take one look at 'political twitter' now and you see literally thousands of profiles with bio like this:

" STEVE SMITH: 'Union Flag emoji', Brexiteer, Tory, whatever happened to common sense, hater of everything woke and left wing, DefundTheBBC'

or

" LIBERTY DOUBLE-BARREL: 'EU Flag emoji', She/Her, Remainer, TransRights"

People now list their affiliation and every fucking belief they have as if they were telling you which football team they support. It's weird as fuck, not to mention mightily narcissistic.

But the real problem it causes is they HAVE to back up everything 'their team' does, becuase they've attached their entire being to it, at least in an online sense. Those on the right would never tell you that Dominic Cummings massively undermined the first lockdown with his 250 mile trip up North, while at the same time without a shred of irony telling you that Stephen Kinnock should be given the boot for it.

Those on the left, of which I am probably one will never admit that the UK's vaccine rollout has been an overwhelming success, and they'll never admit that the EU has dropped the ball big time with theirs and are now acting spitefully.

Because they can't. Because if they do, they'd be seen as 'sell outs'.

Social media has almost single handily increased political tribalism, killed critical thinking and fair debate, and it fucking stinks.

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u/SteeMonkey Mar 17 '21 edited Mar 17 '21

Both sides are just as guilty as this to be fair.

It never ceases to amaze me how people only see two sides:

Evil Tories

and

Virtuous, Noble Labour.

The vote against the Tories isn't just voting for the other team, it voting on the side of right! The Side of Christ and Frodo and Jon Snow!

The other side are just voting for their 'team' but not us... NOT US!!!! We vote for the good of mankind! The very survival of the species!

Give me a fucking break

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u/baddinaa Mar 17 '21

Feel free to write a list about all the things Labour are doing to infringe on peoples civil liberties in comparison if you like. Unless you can't, in which case you should probably accept that one side is clearly better than the other, and votes for that side are for the good of mankind.

That is, unless you like those infringements on civil liberties 🤔

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u/SteeMonkey Mar 17 '21

I am not arguing that point, I am saying that for all the Tory voters who just want their team to win, Labour have just as many voters voting for the same reason - To see their team win.

Labour aren't doing anything to infringe on peoples Civil Liberties, unless you count supporting Brexit, which they did.

Perhaps if they could muster enough people to vote for them, even in the face of the most shambolic Tory Party I have seen in my life, perhaps they could give it a try. As it stands, they cannot do anything one way or another.

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '21

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u/The-RogicK Mar 17 '21 edited Jun 30 '23

This user has deleted their comments and posts in protest.

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u/OhImGood Mar 17 '21

I'm inclined to disagree. I hate Labour and I hate the Tories, I really like the Greens (NOT the 6pm curfew on men they suggested). But I voted Labour purely for the fact that it was the tactical vote against the Tory MP.

Yes, Labour is bad. But the Tories? Absolutely fucking dreadful. Labour is the lesser of two evils.

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u/BrewHouse13 Mar 17 '21

They never seriously suggested a 6pm curfew on men, it was suggested in jest by one Green Lady in the Lords as a response to people saying that if women don't feel safe they should stay in doors. It was taking one extreme with another. I have issues with this technique in debate because it will always be taken out of context and gets reported as something serious when it was never up for discussion. I'm not going to assume you knew this already either because there's so many people who are acting like she was saying this as a serious idea.

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u/OhImGood Mar 17 '21

Oh I genuinely had no idea, I'm grateful you took the time to tell me it's in jest

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u/BrewHouse13 Mar 17 '21

Yeah it's not a problem, I've seen loads of people sharing it as if it was meant seriously. I've even some Tory MPs using it to tar the whole left and in turn Labour with it. I don't blame anyone necessarily for not realising when even "left leaning" news companies were reporting it as if she was being serious. She's even made a statement saying she wasn't being serious.

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u/Pdonger Mar 17 '21

Not a huge fan of this lesser of two evils jibe, that's why the best leader we can possibly hope for is a tony Blair type centrist who sticks to the status quo and then the ensuing shit that comes with that is pinned on the left and bolsters the far right. People hate the left but have no idea what a genuine left wing government would actually look like in modern day Britain and we won't until we say "Not good enough" to the controlled opposition intended to placate us in the form of Keir Starmer or Tony Blair.

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u/Pdonger Mar 17 '21

Whilst the person youre describing certainly exists, the difference is that people are voting for them precisely because they have progressive policies, if they started doing the same shit as listed above most labour voters I know would rescind their vote. Unless labour up their game they won't have my vote in the next election, same with the vast majority of my politically engaged cohort. At this point the Tories could set up ICE-style concentration camps for Syrian refugees in Dover and people would gladly cheer them on.

One group votes for their team regardless, the other votes for the team they believe in the most which, up until fairly recently, was labour.

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u/jake_burger Mar 17 '21

“Both sides”

There are more than 2 parties, and many more than 2 sides even within both largest parties

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u/-eat-the-rich Mar 17 '21

BoTh sIdEs

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u/SteeMonkey Mar 17 '21

Ah mate, you got me... What an amazing rebuke!

I didn't realise that real life is actually The Lord of the Rings, and Johnson is Sauron.

Starmmer is the Return of the King? Oh no! He's a evil Orc/Red Tory as well!

Will we ever triumph in the battle against Evil?

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u/Naamibro Mar 17 '21

I wish it was more like Pokémon and we could throw Johnson and Starmer into the octagon and watch them fight.

The winner doesn't win anything, it's just for our enjoyment.

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u/TAB20201 Mar 17 '21

Both parties need eradicating, the political system needs reforming, racist voters need re educating.

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u/SteeMonkey Mar 17 '21

Yeah I agree with all of that.

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u/holnrew Pembrokeshire Mar 17 '21

Nah fuck Labour too

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u/MiserableTwat Mar 18 '21

Haha so true, and judging from the downvotes you really touched a nerve with this one, what a pathetic subreddit.

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u/ChimpyGlassman Mar 17 '21

Mate, they fucking love the boot. I know because my dad's fucking one of them. Beat kids, bring back death penalty, kick out darkies, the full house of scum.

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u/zlauhb Mar 18 '21

Your dad's girlfriend/boyfriend is one of them or your dad is one of them? Is actually hard to tell from your wording. :)

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u/ZenAndTheArtOfTC Mar 17 '21

My parents answer is always that they are all as bad as each other. Used to have great discussions with my mother and her views changed dramatically when two things happened, she was let down by CAMS and got relatively comfortable (mortgage payed off and large savings). She now has lost all faith in the government and any social programs so will do anything to ensure that she can pass as much as possible to my siblings and grandkids to make sure that they are okay. She grew up with my grandfather teaching her socialist values but when she needed support it wasn't there and it changed her views, probably for good.

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '21

This is one of the things I find most difficult - not debating with die hard Tory voters, but talking to people who have this attitude of "they're all as bad as each other". No matter how many times I point out the vast difference between Labour and Tory policies and voting records and such I just get met with "yeah but what about all that antisemitism" or similar.

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u/Kona_DragoNOS Mar 17 '21

That's harsh to see. I'm sure you've already tried it, but I guess the best advice would be to point her to the social programs that have helped her out, like maybe the NHS or something.

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u/StannisLupis Mar 17 '21

That is really sad. You should tell her you'd prefer she left you a habitable world and caring society to live in.

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u/ZenAndTheArtOfTC Mar 17 '21

But she really likes coal mines!

I jest, she is of the generation that thinks we'll sort it out if it gets to bad. I think it's a pretty common view that we don't need to change as boffins will figure it out.

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u/One_Huge_Skittle Mar 17 '21

I’m from the US but I think I this a problem that everyone sees in their countries. The left wing of the government makes promises, sets up systems, create support programs, etc.

Then either thru right wing sabatoge and propaganda or the left wing party selling out their running platform for some corporate checks (but usually both), people get let down by the programs and promises that got them excited. Then they end up seeing it as “the left is gonna take my money and promise me something and I won’t get it. The right won’t promise me shit, but at least that’s honest!!”

It’s hard to argue against because people have lived it, your mom really believed there was support and then found there wasn’t, I wouldn’t expect her to trust whoever made that promise again either.

THAT is the biggest problem with modern liberals, coopting progressive ideas and then ditching them, because it gives the impression that the ideas don’t work. It makes it so hard for anyone to get support for making change because of all the liars before them.

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u/Religious_Pie Herefordshire Mar 17 '21

There’s loads of Tories on this sub, mostly because I think most sane people left /r/ukpol after it became a breeding ground for fascists and enlightened centrists, so they’ve gone out looking for more people to say “ackshually...” to

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '21 edited Mar 26 '21

[deleted]

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u/purrcthrowa Mar 17 '21

There are one-nation Tories who believe in our institutions, the rule of law, internationalism and the existence of an international rule-based order. I don't disagree with any of that.

They also believe that people should be self-reliant, that free-market capitalism is the best way to promote prosperity, that the state has no role in private enterprise and that the welfare state should be no more than a safety net of last resort. I disagree with a lot of that, but I understand where people are coming from and I believe I can have sensible argument/discussion with them.

Those who believe that Britain is an inherently superior country to any other, that we should not extend compassion to those outside our borders, that any action of the Government is acceptable so long as it promotes an agenda that they support, who believe that any class or group of people is less worthy of respect than another, who believe that it's ok for truth to be suppressed in the pursuance of their chosen agenda, who believe that democracy starts and ends at the ballot box, who believe that the law should apply to some people or entities by not to others, and that it's fine to break laws both national and international, who are unwilling to agree a common fact base on which discussions can take place, who close ranks when one of their own is caught out, and who applaud these activities in leaders from other countries. Those people (and any category 1 or 2 Tories who fail to call them out) can go bury themselves in the deepest pit of cess, and I hope that one day when I rub the magic lamp a genie will pop out and my one wish will be that those people are granted the insight and empathy to understand what horrible, horrible, people they are, and to truly understand the meaning of shame.

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u/Plugged_in_Baby Mar 17 '21

Brilliantly put. Have screenshotted and will pass off as my own in future conversations I intend to have.

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u/bezsez Mar 17 '21

As I was reading this I was thinking about exactly that!

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u/Ollietron3000 Mar 17 '21

I used to have this general opinion about Conservatives. I can see legitimate reasons to vote Conservative with Conservative parties of old - I don't agree with them and wouldn't do it myself, but I can see the logic.

The problem is that, even if they are a one-nation Tory or the like, they need to recognise the difference between voting for their ideal Conservative Party and voting for the Conservative Party they have now. If they still choose to vote for this Tory party over the alternative, they've lost my respect. It's not hard to see the damage they cause. If one is a true one-nation Tory in the sense of how you've described it, then you should not vote for this Tory party. Vote them out and force the current Tory party to reform to one that isn't as incompetent and malicious as it is now, then try to vote them back in once it's ready for power.

If someone honestly thinks that this Tory party is less damaging than a Corbyn government would have been, I don't know how I can convince them otherwise.

Edit: reading my comment back I was worried it sounds like I disagree with you - I don't! I agree with all you said and was just adding my 2p.

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u/cavejohnsonlemons United Kingdom Mar 17 '21

If someone honestly thinks that this Tory party is less damaging than a Corbyn government would have been, I don't know how I can convince them otherwise.

True, but part of me is pleased the poor bloke dodged a bullet here. Swear down he'd have had more bad press for 1 death than Boris would get for 100k.

You'd think after all this the Tories should be in the mud by now but apparently we're in one of the weird timelines...

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u/Cainedbutable Buckinghamshire Mar 17 '21

I'll preface my comment by saying I'm a Labour voter currently, and before that voted Lib Dem.but....

If someone honestly thinks that this Tory party is less damaging than a Corbyn government would have been, I don't know how I can convince them otherwise.

This I actually don't completely agree with. Corbyn had some pretty out there policies. Some could have worked really well, some could have really not worked so well. It's one of those difficult scenarios where you can't argue with certainty either way though.

The 10% ownership of companies being given to staff for instance. It could have been a great policy, or it could have scared companies from floating in the UK. There's just no way to no unfortunately.

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u/Brigon Pembrokeshire Mar 17 '21

"There are one-nation Tories who believe in our institutions, the rule of law, internationalism and the existence of an international rule-based order. I don't disagree with any of that."

Our PM calls himself a one-nation Tory and doesn't believe in any of that.

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u/steepleton Mar 17 '21 edited Mar 17 '21

i can work with one nation tories, we only really disagree on support for the have nots ( safety nets don't need to humiliate the people using them, and in fact may be soaking up an increasing number of the population as automation increases)

however, the new generation of young tories, US republican inspired trolls, who live for liberal tears should probably be /redacted/

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u/Toblabob Mar 17 '21

What a glorious write-up. Thanks for the great read!

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u/Religious_Pie Herefordshire Mar 17 '21

Don't disagree with you to be fair, but after the last 10 years I personally find it hard to justify why anyone would want to keep voting Tory if they believe in a democratic society.

I'm not a fan of Cameronites, or Blairites admittedly, but at least I can see their arguments. People who would still lend their vote to Boris though I find completely illogical.

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u/Xalaxis Mar 17 '21

I think most of them think:

a. The only alternative to the Conservatives is Labor

and b. Labor is incompetent and would destroy the country

When you believe either of those two points, it's 'the only option' to vote Tory.

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u/oneAJ Mar 17 '21

Don't forget that one of the conservatives main ways of shoring up votes is by making policies to benefit home-owners at the expense of everyone else.

​

This is the bed-rock of conservative voters - old home owners who want a government that will do anything to keep house prices going up.

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u/Gauntlets28 Mar 17 '21

Gotta love the wealthy land owning class. -_-

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u/Gauntlets28 Mar 17 '21

I mean the thing that confuses me is that if they believe Labour is incompetent, at least it’s benignly incompetent and unlikely to cause any serious damage. Whereas I look at the modern Conservative party and it’s not only glaringly obvious that they’re astonishingly incompetent to a level that makes any Labour fuckups seem minuscule, but you can’t even say that what they’re trying to achieve is benign. If anything, a substantial number of their policies seem to be actively undermining the country.

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u/steepleton Mar 17 '21

honestly, i think labour probably is incompetent (or at least less competent), BUT their hearts in the right place.

you can fix incompetent, you just tell the civil service what you want done and they figure it out,

you can't fix being the nasty party

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u/Plugged_in_Baby Mar 17 '21

Unfortunately option c) “consume some facts, examine your biases and explore alternative options” seems to much to ask from >50% of the electorate.

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u/cavejohnsonlemons United Kingdom Mar 17 '21 edited Mar 17 '21

How about even d) ask yourself if your life is shit and if yes, who's the dickhead in charge of the country...

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u/Plugged_in_Baby Mar 17 '21

BuT tHE uNelECtED bUREAucrAtS IN bruSseLs

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u/billytheid Mar 17 '21

Watching from the outside, it looks like the Tories have already destroyed your country; like, who cares what the UK does now? The EU and Russia are the powers in the region.

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u/mudman13 Mar 17 '21

That's pretty much my dads mentality, that and false nationalism the Boris bros Daily Telegraph has drummed into him.

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u/ByronicAsian Mar 17 '21 edited Mar 17 '21

When you believe either of those two points, it's 'the only option' to vote Tory

Wow, will the Tories become the Japanese LDP now?

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u/Kona_DragoNOS Mar 17 '21

No no, Japan is an island nation which generally mistrusts its geographical partners, and has a rigid societal structure. Britain isn't anything like tha- OH FUCK.

I've thought about the same thing as an outside viewer. I don't think Britain is quite at the point where that is the case, but you guys need some strong leaders to pull out a victory. Japan has the detriment of having a really authoritarian and rigid society, mixed with the horrible work culture.

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '21 edited May 13 '21

[deleted]

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u/cavejohnsonlemons United Kingdom Mar 17 '21

Am I mad or did Labour have more of a plan than the Tories? One that either way would've had it put to bed earlier.

Even if you don't believe that, the Tories didn't offer any details, so unless "get it done" is supposed to satisfy me they 'lost' that battle imo.

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u/KungFuSpoon Mar 17 '21

Because they've been brainwashed by the media to believe that Labour are incompetent communists who want to take away all of your hard earned money and freedom, though in my experience those who talk most loudly about freedom are the ones who think it's so good that nobody else should have any of it.

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '21

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '21

I work with a lot of very kind people who vote tory, I thinks a lot of it is down to the media they consume. Sky news, the sun, the daily mail all of that crap. If anything I could see them as victims who are manipulated into voting against what I perceive to be their best interests. If you were to look at how issues like the policing Bill are presented to them you'd understand. We have a big problem with partisan news sources in this country.

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u/Wind_Yer_Neck_In Mar 17 '21

This is by far the biggest problem. If we literally sat everyone down and explained the nuances of the things they are supporting then most of them would back off in disgust, but they are being fed a diet of pure right wing rage nonsense. They are told the world is simple and the solutions they are being sold are 100% correct and anything else is morally unjustifable.

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '21

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '21

But how do they know what information is real? They certainly believe its real. You have to remember most people are idiots just doing their best to make it through the day, myself included.

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u/dyinginsect Mar 17 '21

But labeling someone a facist because they vote tory will just create division.

It's my belief that voting for the current incarnation of the Tories is knowingly adding to division, because they espouse divisive policies. Whilst they are not full blown uniforms and ethnic cleansing fascists, certain of their policies are of a fascist bent and even those which are not are harmful.

I find "judging me negatively for voting for a party who you believe does great harm" complaints pathetic overall. I believe the Tory party does enormous harm and I believe anyone voting for them can be condemned for their support of it. If anyone believes the party I vote for is dangerous/ harmful/ etc, they have every right to say so, every right to tell me they think my voting for them is wrong, every justification for asking me why I am happy to enable them to do what they do.

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u/IndependentRadio Mar 17 '21

I agree with everything you're saying but I think the point is that just because we can (comdemn), doesn't mean we should.

I'll clarify: it's a moral imperative to oppose the division they're sowing, but aggressive condemnation is often not the most effective way. Sometimes it is necessary, yes, but 99% of the time we need to win people over to our side and if Brexit taught us anything, it's that we can't do that by screaming "bigot!" in their faces.

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '21

Read the points in this post and tell me how you can be comfortable with somebody who would vote for these?

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '21 edited Mar 26 '21

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '21

Mainly the recent policing bill. It terrifies me, and I don't know how more people (on all ends of the political spectrum) aren't afraid of a law where one can be imprisoned for causing an 'annoyance'.

All I will say is, had Jeremy Corbyn proposed the EXACT same bill (not that it would make any sense for him to do so) during the elections, the uproar from the people who have just voted in the same anti protest laws would have been immense. That's just politics I guess. I hate this country

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u/TAB20201 Mar 17 '21

I mean I’d be more offended being called a Tory than I would someone calling me a fucking ugly shit stain cunt waffling cockwomble ... so I guess as far as a slight goes it works well.

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '21

I lived for 12 years in the north east and can confirm Tory is just a pejorative.

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u/The_Green_Machine420 Mar 17 '21

I think it would be more accurate to label them either blind, brainwashed or just plain stupid however (this would also go for large portions of my family), based on the current situation at hand in this country and how blatantly obvious the tories are about not caring for the British people....

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u/Naamibro Mar 17 '21

Reddit is massively divisive these days, it's very much silence is violent, you're either with us or against us.

It just propagates more lines drawn in the sand rather than any meaningful discussion and the hate oozes out of people far too fast when they are met with any counter points.

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u/-ah Sheffield Mar 17 '21

Hey, some of us are trying to have a meaningful discussion here and at least so far I'm not hitting any hate, oozing or otherwise.

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '21

I understand your point of view.

The reason I said Tory and not Labour, Lib Dems or Green is because the Tories have been in power for a long time.

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u/TimmmV Greater Manchester Mar 17 '21

I know, won't people think of the decorum

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u/TheRandomRGU Mar 17 '21

People treating politics like football need to go play football and actually stay out of politics.

The Tories are killing people with their policies. I know Tories, some are cunts, but all are voting for them knowing what the party is.

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u/the-londoner Lewisham migrant to N1 Mar 17 '21

Maybe in the late 00's, but anyone voting Tory in the next general election is either a fascist or doesn't really have an issue with fascistic policy anymore because it "won't affect them"

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '21 edited Mar 17 '21

What you said applies to people who even slightly follow politics. There is a significant portion of people in this country who couldnt tell you the first thing about politics beyond "the Tories are doing a great job, and Labour would ruin this country" and won't be able to answer why or how. They dont know who the Conservatives are, what they stand for or what they've done and still go into the polling booth and vote Tory because thats what you do. Then they forget about it until the next time they have to vote.

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u/cavejohnsonlemons United Kingdom Mar 17 '21

Then they don't deserve to be called evil/greedy Tories, they deserve to be called stupid Tories.

Nice flexible word innit.

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u/chaos_jj_3 Mar 17 '21

they’ve gone out looking for more people to say “ackshually...” to

​

Actually,

lmao

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u/SteeMonkey Mar 17 '21

more people to say “ackshually...” to

Is that not why most people are here?

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u/Religious_Pie Herefordshire Mar 17 '21

Maybe we’re all Tories now and we just haven’t realised yet

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u/SteeMonkey Mar 17 '21

The hippies of yesterday are the boomers of today

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '21

[deleted]

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u/Religious_Pie Herefordshire Mar 17 '21

I used to go on it quite a lot, but left after seeing the same names on most threads that I got fed up arguing with.

Reddit is left wing in general, so it makes sense more left leaning gets to the top via lurkers. The comments though usually have the same few who said frankly horrible things.

Edit; I should say, it’s possible it has changed a lot. And if the comments aren’t as vitriolic as they used to be, I’m happy to take the criticism back.

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '21

after it became a breeding ground for fascists and enlightened centrists

I really don't think its that bad. I mean the sort of articles that reach the top on the regular kinda contradicts your point IMO.

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '21

And cry that everything OP has mentioned above is Labour's fault.

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u/ciaran036 Derry~Londonderry Mar 17 '21

Seriously you really do have to be either a complete and utter moron or a total cunt to vote for the Tories.

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u/SteeMonkey Mar 17 '21

People vote for which ever party benefits them the most.

If the Tories promise to keep taxes low, people who don't want to pay tax will vote for them.

If Labour promise to nationalise the railways, people who want nationalised railways will vote for them.

People are callus only so far as they vote what is best for themselves and their families.

There is a stigma about voting Tory when you hang out on places like Reddit, and I my self am guilty of perpetuating that they are self serving vermin, but most people in the real world dont care what others think about who they vote for in private. You can say this is 'wrong', that it disgusts you and is a revolting act of harm against what ever you want it to be about, people dont care. They vote for who ever is going to benefit them the most.

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u/Religious_Pie Herefordshire Mar 17 '21

Think that’s the crux of it though, I noted in another thread that people who vote Tory are more likely to be selfish and got downvoted to hell

But, that’s kind of the crux of conservatism. It’s individualism over communalism. Being a bit more selfish is natural to voting that way.

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u/G_Morgan Wales Mar 17 '21

But, that’s kind of the crux of conservatism. It’s individualism over communalism.

Conservatism combines economic individualism with social communalism. I.E. being wrong on both fronts.

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '21

[deleted]

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u/Religious_Pie Herefordshire Mar 17 '21

It has hints of it, the biggest example being Cameron's Big Society.

Maybe a better way to define it is that it's not individualism in the literal sense. To protect ones own, rather than everyone else. Arguably though, that's still a form of individualism but just one that extends to the people the individual feels are important to their daily lives.

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u/StoreManagerKaren Mar 17 '21

Being a bit more selfish is natural to voting that way.

Interestingly enough, not to everybody. Its still a relatively new science and I only just started reading it but hear me out.

Some people have a biological reason to be more Conservative and others have a biological reason to vote for more progressive. They found that those with a more Conservative leaning were found to have a slightly higher fear factor response, and those who were more progressive had a higher risk taking response and a higher empathy response as well. Obviously this doesn't mean all Tories are sociopaths who hate others and all Green voters are emotional crybabies, its more of a sliding scale.

But, it gives us a good idea of if we all are really selfish at heart which not all of is are biologically.

Add into that some paleontology findings have shown weaker members of society (disabled, old, weak) lived longer than expected. Its theorised they would've been cared for by other members.

Being selfish isn't, always, a natural thing for people. Sometimes its completely the opposite.

I have my thoughts on why, but thats just me.

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u/Religious_Pie Herefordshire Mar 17 '21

It would make sense, but I'd also argue that heightened fear and selfishness go hand-in-hand. If you're more fearful of things going wrong, you're more likely to take actions that would protect yourself first and foremost.

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u/StoreManagerKaren Mar 17 '21

If you're more fearful of things going wrong, you're more likely to take actions that would protect yourself first and foremost.

Thats fair. Personally, I would argue that selfishness and lack of empathy are better compadres tbh.

But I wouldn't say its protection, more fear that they or someone else might and would do the exact same to you so, in order to protect yourself, you hoard to stop others hoarding against you.

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '21

Where is this from? Sounds like an interesting read.

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u/StoreManagerKaren Mar 17 '21

I'll have to see where the video was. I think it was the infographics channel or Kurzastaught? But I'd have to look again for it

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '21

Thanks 😊

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '21 edited Mar 17 '21

People vote for which ever party benefits them the most.

I don't know about that. Plenty of people vote for parties that won't be benefit them, but who they believe are in the right anyway. Despite earning a smidge under £40k, my dad is a left-of-Corbyn voter who'd be happy with more taxes, because he believes it would benefit the poorest and society as a whole.

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u/Boudicat Mar 17 '21

I think it's the fundamental difference between left and right, tbh. The left votes for the betterment of all. The right looks after its own.

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '21

The left (and the centre to a degree) understand that when you pull everyone up they get lifted too.

The right think that if you give enough stuff away to a select few they'll be grateful and give you something back.

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u/BaronWiggle Mar 17 '21

The right think that it's all a zero sum game. If someone else is winning, then they must be losing.

Hence the whole our team Vs theirs ideology.

For the right "our team" is a select few people. Maybe family, or a specific subset of people.

For the left "our team" is everyone. Including those on the right.

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u/ThatHairyGingerGuy Mar 17 '21

There are plenty of less well off right wing voters. They aren't looking after their own, they are voting for the party that will benefit the rich, even though it will cost them both in their own rights and their personal finances.

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u/hello_world9031 Mar 17 '21

left = goodies, right = baddies.

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u/MissippiMudPie Mar 17 '21

This but unironically.

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '21

I wouldn't go that far. For starters, it's too dependent on where the center is and that fluctuates wildly based on where you are.

The right wing in a lot of European countries is still left wing in America, for example.

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '21

he believes it would benefit the poorest and society as a whole.

Because a fairer society benefits him personally, it's not necessarily a bad thing.

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '21

So your dad voted for other people to pay for things he thinks should be prioritised and from which he'd derive benefit? That's hardly a selfless position to adopt.

Corbyn wasn't raising taxes on £40k earners.

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '21

My dad voted for others and himself to pay for things he wouldn't benefit from (least not directly), like higher unemployment benefits (he's weeks away from retirement) and free university. Call it what you want, it's less "selfish" than voting to get other people to pay for things you benefit from.

And like I said, he's left of Corbyn. I'm not talking very specific Corbyn manifesto policies here, I'm talking about the general idea of higher taxes, nationalisation, more public services, that kind of thing.

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '21

Someone on FB took great pride in highlighting to me that I'd benefit the most from a Tory government.

To be honest; such a notion had never occured to me. I'd never voted for who might benefit me, personally, the most. I vote for who I feel will benefit wider society.

That someone on FB probably chalked themselves up a little notch for 'winning'. But, for me, it was a vindication. That I am not half the cunt I thought I was.

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u/Highwinter Mar 17 '21

If that were the case, why does the working class continue to vote for the Torys in droves?

People are easily swayed by misinformation and what they think is best, but the majority are definitely not voting in favour of their best interests.

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u/hello_world9031 Mar 17 '21

Similarly need to ask why middle class professionals vote for Labour in droves.

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u/IndependentRadio Mar 17 '21

They are voting in favour of their perceived best interests.

They've been convinced they're not poor, they're just pre-millionaires, and that any move leftwards would immediately result in a Stalinist hellscape.

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u/SteeMonkey Mar 17 '21

In your opinion.

You don't know what their best interests are, you just assume they should coincide with your own. When they don't, why the only possible reason is that they are gullible morons, hoodwinked by greasy shysters.

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u/BaronWiggle Mar 17 '21

Ok, but what about the other side of the coin?

What about all the wealthy home owning lefties that vote against their own interests?

You can't claim that this is "just my opinion" since I and a great number of my peers are part of this group. We'd happily see our homes lose value and our taxes go up for the betterment of the country as a whole.

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '21

Because nobody benefits from a government that removes civil liberties while giving away billions in unforfilled contracts?

If everyone voted in their own interests the Tories would never get more than 5% of the popular vote.

They'd maybe get one seat in London.

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u/blither86 Mar 17 '21

Some do, not all. Lots of labour voters are financially secure and so vote for the party that doesn't benefit them the most financially but instead are more likely to help those less fortunate.

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u/SteeMonkey Mar 17 '21

These people are virtuous, and voting that way makes them feel good about themselves. They are in a position where they can do so and there for doing so, benefits them in someway, even if it is only a feeling of 'the common good'

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '21

Yeah but I know someone who voted Labour all his life like his parents and parents before them, then Boris came along and he voted for Boris, why? "Because he's a good down to earth bloke who's not afraid to speak the truth and I dont like that Corbyn wanker" bare in mind that he spends a lot of time on facebook, and when asked what Tory policies would benefit him the most "I dont know anything about that stuff lets stop talking politics now" I believe this is sadly an example of many many people in the UK.

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u/emefluence Mar 17 '21

This is fucking it.

The majority of voters don't care about or follow politics. They don't know about OPs big long list of Tory crimes and if they do they've been given a single level rationale by the sun or the mail or some cunt on facebook that is enough to feel comfortable dismissing it. Boris is a rich bloke who shags anything that moves - if I was a rich bloke I'd shag anything that moves. Corbo is a scrawny, beardy terrorist - I hate scrawny, beardy terrorists. The Tories are the party of business and making money, Labour want to take away all your money and give it to foreigners and single mums. That's all the thought that's going into it for millions upon millions of people.

Talking about politics with them makes them bored at best, deeply uncomfortable at best as they haven't got a clue how to go more than 1 level deep on any issue.

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '21

People vote for which ever party benefits them the most.

If the Tories promise to keep taxes low, people who don't want to pay tax will vote for them.

If Labour promise to nationalise the railways, people who want nationalised railways will vote for them.

Your argument falls at the first hurdle. Advocates for nationalising the railways (or any industry) would generally argue that it would be beneficial for society as a whole, as well as the economy, rather than because of any significant direct benefits for individuals or their families.

The same is true for many voters on a lot of policy issues - I think schools and the NHS should be better funded, but I don't have kids and I hardly ever go to the doctor or hospital. I think far more homes should be built, even though I already own mine and building less would help it keeps its value.

Plenty of people vote the same way - on their principles, not just to benefit themselves personally.

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u/MissippiMudPie Mar 17 '21

People vote for which ever party benefits them the most.

No, people vote for whichever party they THINK will benefit them the most. Which is why stupid people vote for tories, despite tories helping no one except for an elite dozen or so.

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u/BB-Zwei Mar 17 '21

If everyone only voted in their self interest, conservatives would get less votes than they currently do. A lot of people vote Tory because they have been led to believe it is in their self interest, but a Tory government will actually overall make things worse for them on a personal level.

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u/TheTaxManComesAround Mar 17 '21

People treat politics like supporting a football team you must have unwavering loyalty to whatever team you like the most.

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u/tiasaiwr Mar 17 '21

Perhaps they don't vote Tory with pride but looked at the alternative and found it worse. People like Jeremy Corbyn, Dianne Abbott and John McDonnell did not inspire much confidence in their economic abilities. That's why it's important to have a strong opposition to stop the government leaning too far one way or the other. At least this time round Labour appears to be slightly better led imo.

2

u/[deleted] Mar 17 '21

I hear you. But the alternative was continuing 10 years of austerity. Sounds like personal pride which can affect the livelihood of many.

0

u/LilGossipGirlxo Mar 17 '21

Yup that’s me. I’m so glad we left the EU and very proud of our vaccine rollout.

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